Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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Man i rly want that thing gone, shed tail is so broken and got our poor boy Cyclizar banned too.
Thank you! I'm not the only one who sees this.

Realistically people keep making the Cyclizar + Shed Tail was broken because of Regen but that's not necessarily the case yeah Cyclizar is a better abuser obviously but Shed Tailing (2-3 times in a game is more than enough). Orthoworm becomes more of a matchup fish because you can't Shed Tail in front of every mon but it still allows the same stupid outcome that Cyclizar did which is a successful free substitute on any mon. One can argue Orthoworm being slower as a beneficial thing because it will take the hit prior to the shed tail while Cyclizar allowed you to hit the substitute when you switched out because of its high speed tier.
 
Has anyone tried experimenting with Cryogonal as a dedicated Wake Killer? You can get some more mileage out of it with RSpin and Recover.
 
Thank you! I'm not the only one who sees this.

Realistically people keep making the Cyclizar + Shed Tail was broken because of Regen but that's not necessarily the case yeah Cyclizar is a better abuser obviously but Shed Tailing (2-3 times in a game is more than enough). Orthoworm becomes more of a matchup fish because you can't Shed Tail in front of every mon but it still allows the same stupid outcome that Cyclizar did which is a successful free substitute on any mon. One can argue Orthoworm being slower as a beneficial thing because it will take the hit prior to the shed tail while Cyclizar allowed you to hit the substitute when you switched out because of its high speed tier.
Cyclizar was way better, it could pass subs to several mons in a row almost guaranteed while Orth has limited options to do ot safely. One thing is having to deal with Volc after Orth managed to pass a sub and other was dealing with Volc and then other set up sweeper like Dragonite and maybe another one if you were able to beat those two. Shed tail is good yeah, but Orth isn't comparable to Cyclizar at all.

Has anyone tried experimenting with Cryogonal as a dedicated Wake Killer? You can get some more mileage out of it with RSpin and Recover
Cryogonal was disscused a while ago as a good tera user thanks to levitate, the issue is it depends on tera a lot, could be an interesting option but competing with Tusk as the team spiner and having to use tera on it doesn't sound that great.
 
Cyclizar was way better, it could pass subs to several mons in a row almost guaranteed while Orth has limited options to do ot safely. One thing is having to deal with Volc after Orth managed to pass a sub and other was dealing with Volc and then other set up sweeper like Dragonite and maybe another one if you were able to beat those two. Shed tail is good yeah, but Orth isn't comparable to Cyclizar at all.
Agreed, there's some insane Shed Tail counterplay in ubers. Some teams have dedicated mons for killing Cyclizar before ST is set, Orthworm is never reaching that level with it's current set.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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Cyclizar was way better, it could pass subs to several mons in a row almost guaranteed while Orth has limited options to do ot safely. One thing is having to deal with Volc after Orth managed to pass a sub and other was dealing with Volc and then other set up sweeper like Dragonite and maybe another one if you were able to beat those two. Shed tail is good yeah, but Orth isn't comparable to Cyclizar at all.
Cyclizar is a better abuser obviously but Shed Tailing (2-3 times in a game is more than enough). Orthoworm becomes more of a matchup fish because you can't Shed Tail in front of every mon but it still allows the same stupid outcome that Cyclizar did which is a successful free substitute on any mon.
1679417647864.png


So yes, they actually are comparable because they're the only 2 mons that have the move and I said what you have stated which is Cyclizar is the better abuser.
 
View attachment 501539

So yes, they actually are comparable because they're the only 2 mons that have the move and I said what you have stated which is Cyclizar is the better abuser.
What I mean is that they are played differently, Orth is a kind of "all or nothing" going for a sweep with a set up sweeper using shed tail and the strategy goes around that, that is why Espartha was banned instead of shed tail, because the birb could actually just sweep most teams with it, while Cyclizar was just spaming several set up sweepers with free subs, pretty similar to those veil teams on gen 7.
 
Has anyone tried experimenting with Cryogonal as a dedicated Wake Killer? You can get some more mileage out of it with RSpin and Recover.
That's what i'm saying!
Cryogonal is unironically pretty bulky, especially with Snow boosting its lacking Physical Defense.

Only problem is that killing Wake and Rapid Spin is the only thing it has.
 
That's what i'm saying!
Cryogonal is unironically pretty bulky, especially with Snow boosting its lacking Physical Defense.

Only problem is that killing Wake and Rapid Spin is the only thing it has.
It takes at least one hit from 244 Specs wake (just don't send him out in sun)


244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cryogonal: 237-279 (78.7 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cryogonal: 145-172 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cryogonal: 220-260 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cryogonal: 154-183 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scarf allows this thing to outspeed regardless but the knowledge that you can take a hit is nice
 

Finchinator

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I have to wonder: Is Wake that bad to guarantee a specific slot in the team to deal with it?
This belongs in the Simple questions simple answers thread, but also: not necessarily. It depends on the pace and structure of your team. It could be that way on passive teams that avoid specific cores though.
 

RankleFrank

formerly RubMeWong
This might not be new but what do you guys think about Tech Sash Tera Fighting Breloom, I have been playing around with it and its pretty busted.

232+ Atk Tera Fighting Breloom Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 408-480 (109.9 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232+ Atk Technician Tera Fighting Breloom Mach Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 496-584 (134.4 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232+ Atk Technician Tera Fighting Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 416-504 (112.1 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232+ Atk Technician Tera Fighting Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 360-425 (105.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Albeit that the last one is super niche.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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This might not be new but what do you guys think about Tech Sash Tera Fighting Breloom, I have been playing around with it and its pretty busted.

232+ Atk Tera Fighting Breloom Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 408-480 (109.9 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232+ Atk Technician Tera Fighting Breloom Mach Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 496-584 (134.4 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232+ Atk Technician Tera Fighting Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 416-504 (112.1 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232+ Atk Technician Tera Fighting Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 360-425 (105.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Albeit that the last one is super niche.
Why not run Close Combat over Tera Blast (Fighting)?
 
This might not be new but what do you guys think about Tech Sash Tera Fighting Breloom, I have been playing around with it and its pretty busted.

232+ Atk Tera Fighting Breloom Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 408-480 (109.9 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232+ Atk Technician Tera Fighting Breloom Mach Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 496-584 (134.4 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232+ Atk Technician Tera Fighting Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 416-504 (112.1 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232+ Atk Technician Tera Fighting Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 360-425 (105.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Albeit that the last one is super niche.
Everything is pretty nice and I would probably have a hard time facing it or enjoy using it
But just remember that your Tera is a resource and spending it Turn 1 (or babysitting the sash with a spinner/defogger), is also a price to pay. Also I'm not sure how many players would switch in/stay with those mons against Breloom, since a regular Technician Mach Punch is already a threat to them and they are likely to get out.
 

RankleFrank

formerly RubMeWong
Everything is pretty nice and I would probably have a hard time facing it or enjoy using it
But just remember that your Tera is a resource and spending it Turn 1 (or babysitting the sash with a spinner/defogger), is also a price to pay. Also I'm not sure how many players would switch in/stay with those mons against Breloom, since a regular Technician Mach Punch is already a threat to them and they are likely to get out.
That's fair I think its a good revenge killer, but not even tera'd Mach Punch is still super annoying to deal with
 
That's fair I just really needed/wanted an excuse to use Tera Blast, also I change to Tera Ground sometimes to hard counter skeledirge
Bulldoze is probably better since it's stronger and drops the opponents speed. If you wanna use Tera Blast, try it with Tera Fire since Breloom doesn't have fire coverage and it hits two of its switch-ins, Gholdengo and Amoonguss for super effective damage.
 

viivian

OU's sweetheart
is a Tiering Contributor
Has anyone tried experimenting with Cryogonal as a dedicated Wake Killer? You can get some more mileage out of it with RSpin and Recover.
saw someone in a discord server i'm in run AV cyrogonal to counter walking wake and i don't think i've laughed harder than i did when i saw them post a replay of it actually working

silly discord shenanigans aside, i don't think cyrogonal is exactly a reliable check to walking wake, especially not under sun. every time it comes in on wake, it's usually forced to recover immediately afterward as to not get blown away by the next hit it switches in on, and usually has to repeat this process multiple times throughout the course of the game, and with only 8 PP, this could be a problem. additionally, it has a horrible defensive typing in ice that gives it some really horrible weaknesses to some common attacking moves (one of which being wake's flamethrower) and doesn't grant it any resistances, which is horrible since it meand wake can simply overwhelm it with its STABs. and lastly, cryogonal's horrible defense stat definitely hinders it a ton in such a physically oriented metagame. tons of pokemon, even more passive ones like dondozo and corviknight, can easily chip it down with a physical attack, some of which without any investment at all. this combined with the poor defensive typing mentioned prior makes it deathly afraid of a lot of physical attackers, a lot of which are commonly paired up with walking wake on sun teams, such as great tusk, ceruledge or roaring moon (among other things)

TLDR: cryogonal is a nice wake check in theory but its overreliance on recover, poor defensive typing and all-around poor matchup spread make it hard to make work in practice
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
Question time: how do you guys feel about the state of Weavile right now? Did any of yall try to give him a chance?
I miss my boy
 
For future reference, this belongs in the SQSA, but it’s still not viable unfortunately.
At the risk of unintentionally pestering or "well-actuallying" a Mod, I can sort of see why they'd ask about it here, since discussing Weavile's viability (or lack thereof) would also probably entail some discussion on the state of the meta and how it helps/hinders its performance as a result.
 
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Finchinator

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At the risk of unintentionally pestering or "well-actuallying" a Mod, I can sort of see why they'd ask about it here, since discussing Weavile's viability (or lack thereof) would also probably entail some discussion on the state of the meta and how it helps/hinders its performance as a result.
I’d be more inclined to agree if it was something listed on the VR, but we tend to use that as a line drawn. Obviously it’s not always easy to follow though and I understand both your and their sentiment, yes.
 
Triple Axel loss didn,t hurt Weavile too much, it was OU in ORAS in SM without it. I personally never used the move outside of 4th slot in CB variant, Icicle Crash for me is way more reliable.
Pursuit loss back in SS did hurt a lot, but Weavile recovered from it (Triple Axel did help for that, I have to admit).
Knock Off loss however, was tragic and killed almost all viability Weavile could have had. Without Knock Off, it can,t cripple the bulky counters (Dondozo, Pex, etc.) it has and therefore needs lots of hazard support and another Knock Off user or 2 in the team in order to effectively use CB Assurance (also, since its CB, it needs removal too, at least that one is not that hard with Tusk and Treads).

Triple Axel was not dexited, so Tutors might be a thing later and Weavile could regain some viability. However, without Knock Off it won,t ever be OU again. Still, I support generational cut of Moves and hopefully it ends up being true (there are rumours it might not). If Weavile not getting back Knock Off is the price to pay for that, I more than accept it.
 
Question time: how do you guys feel about the state of Weavile right now? Did any of yall try to give him a chance?
I miss my boy
https://pokepast.es/661ff051fd2050cf

i gave it a shot before Wake came out, ended up making a team with the help of some people from the OU chatroom on showdown, iirc it was Mimikyu Stardust but I'm sure a few others also contributed. it ended up being not too awful but still pretty not great. probably v outdated now due to wake existing but i'm sure there's a few modifications you could make to the team to make it a bit better vs it (probably booster valiant instead of specs for instance).

from what i remember of using it, weavile's beat up even w/ tera was still pitifully weak in comparison to how it use to be in gen 8, which is a shame, because cb beat up weav was my favourite team style back in gen 8. maybe if it gets triple axel + knock off back in home it'll be good again, but probably not.
 
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