it's actually because healing wish is incompatible with all other status moves, normally
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Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter A Cake Wearing A Hat
- Start date
I won’t belabor the point on Healing Wish much more as it appears to be understood that between Healing Wish and Lunar Dance, the former is the better early game option which would be a better fit on Smeargle, but I have to imagine that there’s probably a way around that coding complication that doesn’t require an undesirably inelegant solution.
I feel like I need to stress that Contrary Stellar Tera Blast boosts Enamorus’s Attack and Special Attack on use by one stage each, and would replace its Flying type attack (which offers no such boosts) without touching its Fighting, Fairy, Psychic, or Ground coverage. I don’t think I should have to explain that, as clearly that first part is understood to work for Serperior, but no part of the reasoning against Stellar Enamorus here makes any acknowledgment of those stat boosts or what part of the coverage it actually affects. Indeed, Stellar Tera also provides one-time boosts to that coverage you are so fond of, including Zen Headbutt. In fact, Flying Tera Blast doesn’t really add much to Enamorus’s coverage any more, as non Stellar Zen Headbutt hits Poison types just as hard while Play Rough covers Fighting types, leaving Flying Tera Blast as not much more than a strong neutral option that Stellar Tera Blast nearly matches after just one use while also powering up all of Enamorus’s other moves. This is all without even mentioning that Stellar Tera also leaves Enamorus’s superior base defensive type intact. I also want to stress that Stellar Tera Blast allows Enamorus to boost against Ghost types, Psychic types, Bug types, and even Poison types while dealing serious damage to them since it would no longer be entirely dependent on Superpower. I can somewhat understand wanting to test set changes one at a time such as to be sure of which change is the source of an observed improvement or slump, but I have to wonder at such an obviously powerful option apparently being passed on entirely for reasons that don’t appear to grasp its potential.
I don’t think Luvdisc’s Wish passing “contributes every battle”. I’m not saying it never contributes, but giving your opponent the 2-3 turns it takes to switch Luvdisc in, use Wish, and switch out to something else for it to receive likely less than half its max HP does not consistently have meaningful impact on the battle, at least not in your favor, and Luvdisc’s win rates clearly show that whatever Wish does contribute isn’t enough. As for Mirror Herb, I don’t see what Swagger has to do with this. That’s a bad move. If Swagger Mirror Herb was good, Swagger Foul Play would be good, and Swagger Foul Play is not good. I am talking purely about using Mirror Herb for its setup-punishing capabilities, and yes, that means hard switching Luvdisc into setup moves. Hard switching Pokémon (especially unrevealed Pokémon) into something clicking a setup move is like, 40% of the entire randbats experience, and hey, that’s Luvdisc’s win rate right there! I also don’t know what you mean about all Luvdisc getting Mirror Herb if any of them get Mirror Herb. As I alluded to in my previous post, the Mirror Herb set I envisioned would be an alternative role to Luvdisc’s Wish pass set, and the unpredictability that would create would benefit both sets, as I also mentioned. Then again, even if all Luvdisc were Mirror Herb, I don’t see why Luvdisc consistently scaring out setup sweepers and otherwise delaying sweeps is a bad thing. That’s what a blanket check does. And yes, I know that it would often be unable to OHKO even after copying boosts, but a healthy Luvdisc would still be able to usually do 60-80 to many setup sweepers without even Terastallizing, which is more than its current set or an Endeavor set lacking Endure or Sash is likely to be able to do. Allow me to clarify that I am under no delusions that a Mirror Herb set would make Luvdisc consistent or act as a surprise instant win button, but I believe that Mirror Herb could, if tested, prove to be a more reliable don’t-lose button. The fact is that Luvdisc as it is now is not consistent, and that teams with a Luvdisc on them frequently find themselves wishing they had a don’t-lose button.
Consider gen 8’s Dynamax mechanic. It regularly functioned as either a win-more mechanic where you took a sweeper that already had a lot of potential to break your opponent’s team and turned that potential up to 11 or a lose-less button where you used it as an emergency stop to a situation that would likely lead to your loss and hoped that you would be able to recoup the sacrifice later. Wish pass Luvdisc is solely a win-more type of Pokémon. Its main usefulness comes from already having a good matchup and using Wish passing and Flip Turn maneuvering to keep those Pokémon giving you the advantage healthy and in position. However, you do not have a good matchup in most matches, as you are more likely to have a neutral or bad matchup, and that’s without having a Luvdisc on your team. Luvdisc is a bad Pokémon, and having it on your team makes you more likely to lose; it would be better served having a set geared towards making comebacks and/or serving as an emergency check than one geared towards playing benchwarmer for a team that would probably still win with most any 50%er in its place. Maybe Mirror Herb just isn’t good enough for that. After all, even optimistically Mirror Herb Luvdisc probably can’t average much more than 80% progress against opposing teams. On paper, that doesn’t look good for surpassing a 40% win rate, but the idea is that it will most often be making that progress against its opponents’ key players that are otherwise in position to make real game-winning plays. I don’t think we’ll know how it would truly perform until it’s tried, and I want to be as sure as I can that its rejection is coming from a place of proper understanding.
I rolled a Swampert without any water moves (Roar, Ice Beam, Stealth Rock, Earthquake). I get this set may be viable, but Torrent is not helpful 100% of times in this situation. Shouldn't Damp be considered if this is a thing (I guess to only counter those random Golem sets)? Still worthless 99.9% of the time, but I guess it could be helpful in that one scenario. Thanks!
Even if your swampert was Damp, you'd kind of WANT Explosion to occur sometimes; Alolan Golem exploding on you would result in the Alolem fainting and you taking no damage. Torrent prevents that outcome. Combine this situation with the rarity of Explosion in the format and the code complexity involved with letting Dampert exist, Torrent is probably fine to stay albeit its weirdness. I'll talk with the staff and see what they think, though!
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i think stellar tera should be added to contrary enamorus incarnate as an option to roll over flying since you'd get an attack boost with tera blast
k we'll try it mid-month january due to overwhelming support; we can't test its winrate before that. It will have play rough.
So, I was once playing a Random Battle and got a Choice Band Terrakion with Close Combat, Stone Edge, Earthquake, and Quick Attack? I see that Quick Attack can only be helpful in maybe a few select scenarios like having Tera Normal (which I don't think it had) for 60 Base Power or revenge killing low HP fast mons, but I think Terrakion is fast enough as is, so I believe that it should have Iron Head, Poison Jab, X-Scissor, or Zen Headbutt, whichever you think is the most viable.
We had Quick Attack on it because it's been CB terrakion's standard fourth move in tiers for years, but we can give it Sacred Sword or something instead i guess. Not like the fourth move is at all necessary in the first place.
Whimsicott really should not be running hurricane on its "Bulky Support" set. A 70% accurate non-stab move should not be on something with 77 base sp atk. Realistically you could just slap any one of its move from its other set, except u-turn, but encore seems like the best option. Alternatively, it it wants to act as more of a stall set it could have giga drain for longevity. In the end it's up to you, but pretty much any status would be better than hurricane.
Hurricane exists to hit Grass-types, which otherwise put a hard stop to SubSeed. Would you prefer Protect and being walled by Grass/Poisons and any remotely bulky Grass entirely?
hey i have a complaint about random battle tropius because i had a pretty good team like life orb protean greninja or galarian moltres ogerpon a glailie with earth quake and freeze dry a luxray that could barely touch the banana Dino and avalugg hisui and it couldnt defeat the tropius its move set and tera make it almost impossible to break especially if you have a bad team my team was quite good and it just lost to leech seed sub protect stall from a tropius so please like lower its level (it was level 90) or remove its ability harvest or remove substite from its move pool and add rest with chesto berry or something so its annoying but not impossible to break
Welcome to Smogon! Unfortunately, we do not nerf Pokemon's sets on purpose. SubSeed Tropius has many valid answers (especially after DLC2's introduction of Psychic Noise), and playing against SubSeed is often a lot easier the more you play the game. If Tropius's objective win rate becomes too high, its level will be reduced; this is the only situation in which Tropius's level will be lowered. However, Tropius has also had a consistently below average win rate for the entire generation, so this is unlikely.
Froslass got triple axel back. With wide lens, triple axel outdamages ice beam by a very large margin, and it also makes poltergeist more accurate. These were deemed sufficient to force wide lens over HDB by the setdev team; there is a precedent in gen8 rands and froslass was doing very well there with a similar set
Is it possible for Sandacondas "Bulky Support" set to have an enforced stone edge? Because I just had a game with the opponent having a Sandaconda with earthquake as its only attacking move, which left it really vunerable to any flying type and most grass types. If you have to remove a move from the set, I would recommend stealth rocks, but removing rest could also make sense.
We can change that role to do that, for sure.
Just ran into a Psychic Solgaleo on its Bulky Setup Set. I think this may be a mistake because the other two Solgaleo sets have Psychic Fangs.
since this Solgaleo set gets Weakness Policy and is therefore aiming to boost its Attack and Special Attack, Psychic is an intentional inclusion there. Solgaleo's SpAtk is perfectly usable and being mixed is great in rands, with flat EV investment across all stats and the chance to run into mons ranging from Alomomola to Blissey.
Ok this isn't a troll.
Luvdisc should have Endeavor and Aqua Jet with a Focus Sash as a set. Luvdisc is objectively the worst Pokemon in the entire format, with a shopping 4% winrate worse than the next lowest non-Alcremie form Pokemon. Luvdisc has such awful stats and such an awful movepool that regardelss of what is run on it, it's going to suck. My suggestion is that Luvdisc holds a Focus Sash with Endeavor because it's defenses are so paper-thin that it's likely getting 1-shot by many attacks anyway. Plus, using Aqua Jet gives it priority to act like a FEAR (FEAL) set without it being FEAR. While this set isn't likely to improve Luvdisc, at least it gives it slightly more versatility for the worst Pokemon in the format.
Suggested Moveset
Endeavor
Aqua Jet
Charm/Ice Beam
Surf/Tera Blast (water) depending on which would do more damage
Item: Focus Sash
Tera Type: Water (It gives a higher STAB boost to its water moves and at least gives it a passable typing)
Thank you for reading.
Luvdisc should have Endeavor and Aqua Jet with a Focus Sash as a set. Luvdisc is objectively the worst Pokemon in the entire format, with a shopping 4% winrate worse than the next lowest non-Alcremie form Pokemon. Luvdisc has such awful stats and such an awful movepool that regardelss of what is run on it, it's going to suck. My suggestion is that Luvdisc holds a Focus Sash with Endeavor because it's defenses are so paper-thin that it's likely getting 1-shot by many attacks anyway. Plus, using Aqua Jet gives it priority to act like a FEAR (FEAL) set without it being FEAR. While this set isn't likely to improve Luvdisc, at least it gives it slightly more versatility for the worst Pokemon in the format.
Suggested Moveset
Endeavor
Aqua Jet
Charm/Ice Beam
Surf/Tera Blast (water) depending on which would do more damage
Item: Focus Sash
Tera Type: Water (It gives a higher STAB boost to its water moves and at least gives it a passable typing)
Thank you for reading.
We plan to experiment with more Luvdisc sets in January.
i think ice beam on the deoxys speed setup sweeper set would be a good option, that set currently only has 4 options and it'd be a really good coverage move to pull, could maybe make it a 50/50 with dark pulse
You would rather have ice beam as your best option against opposing psychic or dark types, or dark pulse as your best option against steel? I wouldn't. Psychic/dark/fighting is simply the best coverage it can have in three moves.
been wondering about this for a while, but ive been thinking that most calm mind arceus sets should have forced recover. part of the benefit of having cm arc is that you can just throw around the gargantuan bulk to set up in front of weaker mons, and recover both makes that feasible and also helps out with offsetting hazards due to the lack of boots. of the 13 arcs that have calm mind, 10 aren't guaranteed recover (bug, dark, dragon, fairy, fire, grass, ground, ice, rock, steel); i think there's enough coverage offered between 2 attacks for dark (judge/sludge bomb), fairy (judge/either fire blast or earth power), ground (judge/ice beam), ice (judge/tbolt), rock (judge/earth power) and steel (judge/earth power) such that forcing recover on them is feasible, as opposed to a pretty low benefit from an additional, likely overlapping coverage move.
Most of them do have forced recover. The “Bulky Setup” (and “Bulky Support” in the case of steel) role forces recovery, even if the set isn’t fixed. For example, arceus-ice always has recover, judgment and calm mind. Its 4th move is a roll between ep and tbolt.
tl;dr please remove AV Ting-Lu because it isn't a good pivot and doesn't check special setup well
OK, most of the crap sets I was going to complain about like Choice Band Forretress got thankfully removed, but there is one notable one that I still see today. This stupid 4 attacks AV Ting-Lu set. It does nothing, at best it gets a 50% damage ruination off before the opponent switches into something that can threaten it because of its many, many weaknesses. Lack of leftovers or HDB in a meta where spikes and rocks are often unremovable is basically a death sentence and means it never can really be a good pivot as its set name implies. I would nearly always have the hazards set in most scenarios.
I think that despite the set name, the intended use of it is to scare boosting sweepers such as Volc, Crown and Oricorio that don't want to or can't switch out. The problem i have with that is that most of the time, teraing basically invalidates it, be it gaining a better defensive typing, boosting a move so that it gets beaten faster than it can beat the threat, or gaining a free turn to set up one more time. And using Tera on these pokemon isn't exactly a waste; these are among the deadliest pokemon in randbats and chances are you'd be using it on them anyway. On the rare occasion it actually does effectively check a special boosting threat, its lack of longevity means that you have to preserve it very very carefully lest it drop below the threshold it needs to take 2 hits after a turn of boosting. Usually this means playing basically 5v5. Overall I think it's at the very least a very tenuous special check if one at all.
edit: one more thing:
what is it with the influx of psychic noise on EVERYTHING? Psychic is a better STAB move 99% of the time, as leftovers usage is at an all-time low, and the only other use is against healing pokemon, which seem kinda rare and not a good trade off for the insane power loss. I'm struggling to explain how big of a power drop it is, but it causes the pokemon to lose crucial KOs on basically everything. There's not really much more to say about it, the effect is just not worth the loss in power.
OK, most of the crap sets I was going to complain about like Choice Band Forretress got thankfully removed, but there is one notable one that I still see today. This stupid 4 attacks AV Ting-Lu set. It does nothing, at best it gets a 50% damage ruination off before the opponent switches into something that can threaten it because of its many, many weaknesses. Lack of leftovers or HDB in a meta where spikes and rocks are often unremovable is basically a death sentence and means it never can really be a good pivot as its set name implies. I would nearly always have the hazards set in most scenarios.
I think that despite the set name, the intended use of it is to scare boosting sweepers such as Volc, Crown and Oricorio that don't want to or can't switch out. The problem i have with that is that most of the time, teraing basically invalidates it, be it gaining a better defensive typing, boosting a move so that it gets beaten faster than it can beat the threat, or gaining a free turn to set up one more time. And using Tera on these pokemon isn't exactly a waste; these are among the deadliest pokemon in randbats and chances are you'd be using it on them anyway. On the rare occasion it actually does effectively check a special boosting threat, its lack of longevity means that you have to preserve it very very carefully lest it drop below the threshold it needs to take 2 hits after a turn of boosting. Usually this means playing basically 5v5. Overall I think it's at the very least a very tenuous special check if one at all.
edit: one more thing:
what is it with the influx of psychic noise on EVERYTHING? Psychic is a better STAB move 99% of the time, as leftovers usage is at an all-time low, and the only other use is against healing pokemon, which seem kinda rare and not a good trade off for the insane power loss. I'm struggling to explain how big of a power drop it is, but it causes the pokemon to lose crucial KOs on basically everything. There's not really much more to say about it, the effect is just not worth the loss in power.
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