Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets

[brouha]

Hey, forgive me if this has already been discussed but I've noticed an increase in leftovers > boots on some mons that feel like they shouldn't. The two that I've mainly had issues with are skeledirge and cyclizar. I was told that they have always had the option between the two and would get lefties when generated with another mon that has hazard removal, but now with there being more consistent removal on teams it feels more noticeable.

For both of these mons, mainly skeledirge because of the rocks weakness, it feels as though the risk of not having boots in certain matchups is far greater than the benefit of having leftovers on teams where you do have the option to consistently remove any hazards. In a lot of matchups where you have a removal option it's still not feasible to be able to keep hazards off for the entire game, a few examples being: hazard setter winning 1v1 vs your removal mon, removal mon being too slow or not having enough survivability in the matchup to use multiple times, or more rarely having a spinblocker that is difficult to take advantage of in the matchup. I know that all of these things can be played around to a certain degree and might not affect every game, but even in such cases leftovers often don't give enough of an advantage to these mons to make it worth it.

Skeledirge needs 5 turns of leftovers to have a positive impact against only one stealth rock switch, and you are much less likely to be able to use your recovery move as it significantly increases your chance of getting 2hkod on switchin. It becomes even worse with the increased spike distribution in this gen, and the fact that the opponent may have hazards distributed between multiple mons on their team which significantly decreases the chance of your removal options being able to deal with both (rocker+tspikes/webs, or rocks+spikes on seperate mons).

Cyclizar has the same issues as above, although it's significantly less of a disadvantage when facing against only stealth rock. Because the nature of the cyc sets however, you are rarely staying in more than 2 turns (usually knock/draco/taunt directly into shed tail) and is used as a pivot mon in most cases which means against one layer you are usually going to be either neutral or saving more HP with boots.



tldr: should remove leftovers as an option from skeledirge and cyclizar in favour of boots

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Hey, forgive me if this has already been discussed but I've noticed an increase in leftovers > boots on some mons that feel like they shouldn't. The two that I've mainly had issues with are skeledirge and cyclizar. I was told that they have always had the option between the two and would get lefties when generated with another mon that has hazard removal, but now with there being more consistent removal on teams it feels more noticeable.

For both of these mons, mainly skeledirge because of the rocks weakness, it feels as though the risk of not having boots in certain matchups is far greater than the benefit of having leftovers on teams where you do have the option to consistently remove any hazards. In a lot of matchups where you have a removal option it's still not feasible to be able to keep hazards off for the entire game, a few examples being: hazard setter winning 1v1 vs your removal mon, removal mon being too slow or not having enough survivability in the matchup to use multiple times, or more rarely having a spinblocker that is difficult to take advantage of in the matchup. I know that all of these things can be played around to a certain degree and might not affect every game, but even in such cases leftovers often don't give enough of an advantage to these mons to make it worth it.

Skeledirge needs 5 turns of leftovers to have a positive impact against only one stealth rock switch, and you are much less likely to be able to use your recovery move as it significantly increases your chance of getting 2hkod on switchin. It becomes even worse with the increased spike distribution in this gen, and the fact that the opponent may have hazards distributed between multiple mons on their team which significantly decreases the chance of your removal options being able to deal with both (rocker+tspikes/webs, or rocks+spikes on seperate mons).

Cyclizar has the same issues as above, although it's significantly less of a disadvantage when facing against only stealth rock. Because the nature of the cyc sets however, you are rarely staying in more than 2 turns (usually knock/draco/taunt directly into shed tail) and is used as a pivot mon in most cases which means against one layer you are usually going to be either neutral or saving more HP with boots.



tldr: should remove leftovers as an option from skeledirge and cyclizar in favour of boots

That's a nice and well-thought out essay, and we already agree with you, but you were also given partial misinformation.

Per lines 1446-1456 of random-teams.ts, the random set generator file:

        if (
            ((!teamDetails.defog && !teamDetails.rapidSpin) || (!counter.get('setup') && role !== 'Wallbreaker')) &&
            this.dex.getEffectiveness('Rock', species) >= 1
        ) return 'Heavy-Duty Boots';
        if (
            (moves.has('chillyreception') || (
                role === 'Fast Support' &&
                ['defog', 'partingshot', 'mortalspin', 'rapidspin', 'uturn', 'voltswitch'].some(m => moves.has(m)) &&
                !types.includes('Flying') && ability !== 'Levitate'
            ))
        ) return 'Heavy-Duty Boots';

This means the following:

-Fast Support pokemon like Cyclizar always get Boots if they have hazard removal or a pivoting move (in which Cyclizar always has Rapid Spin unless the team already has removal). Thus, Cyclizar does not get boots with hazard removal already on the team, but this is only because it does not have Rapid Spin anymore and therefore does not fit the boots qualifications. If you'd like, we can remove one of its currently present moves such that it always gets Rapid Spin, even with another hazard remover on the team. This would fix the issue. We also could have something brewing that could simplify the above by using our pre-existing pivoting moves array instead of a list of pivoting moves; it's possible we don't need to enforce Rapid Spin on it. We'll see.

-Bulky Pokemon weak to Rock do not get other items over Boots if they do not have setup. Torch Song does not count as setup, so Will-O-Wisp variants of Skeledirge are unaffected. However, Flame Charge does count as setup. If you'd like, we can either remove Flame Charge Skeledirge entirely, or completely prevent all Rock-weak setup sweepers from ever getting anything other than Heavy-Duty Boots, even if the team has removal. The former option would be simple and would fix your issue, and the latter is more widespread and would also completely delete any chance for things like Life Orb Nasty Plot Tornadus-Therian. Up to you.

 

[brouha]

Hmm yea not ideal

Really unfortunate for dirge as in my experience flame charge is the stronger set, so removing that to guarantee boots would likely decrease its wr overall. I'll have to look into the second option more to see what other mons it would effect before commenting, but could definitely see that it nerfs some flying mon sets as they don't have to worry about the other hazards. I'll make another post if it looks like an overall positive change

For cyc I doubt removing taunt for guaranteed spin would be too big of an impact on its viability, but lefties is already pretty rare so might do more harm than good. I'll trust your guys judgement on this, I'm pretty neutral after seeing the reasoning.

EDIT: posting what I found by looking around to see what would be changed (if I understand correctly), there are a few who would likely benefit but probably not enough to be worth it

sets affected by setup change

NP Ninetales and Ninetales-A
DD Gyarados
CM Articuno-G
DD Salamence
CM Typhlosion-H
SD Outrage and DD Rayquaza
SD Leavanny
BU Braviary
Agility Tinted Lens Braviary-H
Agility Calyrex-Ice
CM Enamorus
Agility Enamorus-T
SD Ceruledge
DD Baxcalibur
NP Chi-yu
NP Houndoom
NP Rotom forms (with rock weakness)
NP Tornadus and Thundurus Forms
NP Delphox
SD Kleavor
CM Glaceon
Agility Vikavolt
Work Up Pyroar
SD Beartic
SD Weavile

Not sure if there's a substitute interaction with lefties but if not:
CM Chandelure
QD Venomoth

 

[Piplz]

Maybe an exception for recovery moves too? It's mainly what sets the diff between something like say Skeledirge or Typh-H. One is much more prone to be used as a defensive asset as it walls a bunch of mons with just slack off and its typing.

smth along the lines of "if has no setup OR has recovery, return boots"

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

After a lot of discussion, we've considered the above suggestions, we've been considering only forcing boots on Levitate users and Flying-types with setup when the team has removal (which unfortunately includes Dragonite), we've considered only forcing boots if the setup sweeper doesn't have Swords Dance or Nasty Plot specifically (which unfortunately excludes Gyarados); pretty much anything in the book.

However, the staff just can't agree that this is even something we want to be messing with in the first place (since some of 'em actually LIKE lefties skeledirge), much less how. As a result, we're kind of deadlocked on action to take, at the moment, here. Sorry.

 

[thatcameguy]

i don't like HJK and reckless on mienshao, cc is a much safer option and is a strong enough move, regen is also way better for longevity especially on scarf where you can just u turn out and heal

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

i don't like HJK and reckless on mienshao, cc is a much safer option and is a strong enough move, regen is also way better for longevity especially on scarf where you can just u turn out and heal

reckless choice item mienshao isn't going anywhere at the moment. it oneshots the average pokemon with a band (see: hjk vs Arcanine, the mathematically most average-defenses pokemon in rands). sorry. Could make it only band on that set, if it'd help?

If it does end up leaving in the future it would be in order to decrease the format's choice item rate, and it wouldn't be replaced by regenerator choice; it'd just be half av half sd

 

[Celever]

I feel like the density of Choice locked sets has massively increased from Gen 8 to Gen 9, and then again with the DLC. It's not uncommon (I'd say for me, every one in five games, but that might just be bias) to have at more than half (at least 4) of my team choice locked, which leads to very swingy games (oh, he had a resist/immune for my STAB, guess I'm screwed since I give him a free turn). If there isn't plans to add more "non choice" sets, could we at least limit the amount that can show up on a team?

This is something we actively try to keep under wraps, and also actively monitor. At the moment, 9.4% of teams have 3 choice users or more. This is around a full percentage point less than pre-DLC, demonstrating how effectively this principle was maintained during DLC's set design.

The reason why choice is more common is because, under the roles system, jank sets are removed. A lot of sets under the old system were anti-synergistic, being something like 3 attacks and a random status move that really is something the mon can get because it pairs well with this other status move, but we can't actually link the two moves together. That's no longer the case, and so the rate of choice is increased because we're not actively giving Pokémon bad sets in order to keep them in line, and those sets are now avoidable. Furthermore, it's also just the case that the Paldea Dex has a lot of mons that desire choice. DLC1 already made this the case less than pre-DLC, perhaps DLC2 will do the same.

There's no way for the code to accurately limit the number of choice Pokémon outright, and if it were possible this would be undesirable because running several choice items on one team is a viable strategy. It's rare enough (9.4% of teams 3+ choice users) that it's in a decent place right now. Some format developers more ardently want to further reduce this number than others, but as it stands you can't really point at a Pokémon and say the choice item it currently has is bad. If you can, feel free to suggest it, though I can't promise we wouldn't try out other choice sets we're currently sitting on in order to keep the rate in line if we decided to remove the suggested choice sets.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

I feel like the density of Choice locked sets has massively increased from Gen 8 to Gen 9, and then again with the DLC. It's not uncommon (I'd say for me, every one in five games, but that might just be bias) to have at more than half (at least 4) of my team choice locked, which leads to very swingy games (oh, he had a resist/immune for my STAB, guess I'm screwed since I give him a free turn). If there isn't plans to add more "non choice" sets, could we at least limit the amount that can show up on a team?

The above is mostly correct, but some additions:

One of our official long term goals in set development is as follows:
-maintain having 3+ choice items at 9.4% and lower further when we can reasonably do so without impacting win rates

Some variant of "less choice please" has been in place since February, and we've been acting on it over time and will continue to do so whenever we can.

Official stance is that 9.4% is still too high. Expect some further changes in the next couple weeks' updates to hopefully help get that rate a bit lower and improve Pokemon at the same time.

 

[freebird88]

Hi I'd like to suggest that Hippowdon sets that get whirlwind should also be getting stealth rock. I just had one with earthquake/slack off/whirlwind/yawn and it was very very useless because of the lack of stealth rock.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9randombattle-1959444263-b1wzkkzj0moe0n86l05kqr0rk5zymr2pw

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Hi I'd like to suggest that Hippowdon sets that get whirlwind should also be getting stealth rock. I just had one with earthquake/slack off/whirlwind/yawn and it was very very useless because of the lack of stealth rock.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9randombattle-1959444263-b1wzkkzj0moe0n86l05kqr0rk5zymr2pw

Ok, we'll remove yawn

 

[pyuk]

Ok, we'll remove yawn

Can’t you just make Whirlwind and Yawn incompatible? They both serve basically the same purpose of forcing switches, and while being able to combo them to force a double switch is cool, that only works if you already have hazards and boxes out either having your own hazards or having recovery.

 

[Celever]

Can’t you just make Whirlwind and Yawn incompatible? They both serve basically the same purpose of forcing switches, and while being able to combo them to force a double switch is cool, that only works if you already have hazards and boxes out either having your own hazards or having recovery.

That's why we're removing Yawn, because it's basically just a worse version of Whirlwind outside of super niche scenarios wherein it's roughly a win more button. It's better than the incompatibility and saves a hard code.

We also might be changing it to Roar because the Roar immunities are less relevant to Hippo than Whirlwind ones are.

 

[kitsu-aria]

Just encountered Choice Band Spiritomb with Foul Play. I know Spiritomb is somewhat restricted with its physical Dark STAB options, but if its banded shouldnt Lash Out be a more coherent option?

 

[Celever]

Just encountered Choice Band Spiritomb with Foul Play. I know Spiritomb is somewhat restricted with its physical Dark STAB options, but if its banded shouldnt Lash Out be a more coherent option?

Foul Play is boosted by the user's own Choice Band

 

[Bruh Wobuffet]

Proof of existence

Personally I felt like Tera Flying DD Altaria is not actually good.
Altaria is a bulky setup sweeper, that usually wants to stack up DDs rather than all out attacking due to it's high bulk and (overall) underwhelming attack stat, therefore using the Tera Defensively is overall a much better option. The current Ground and Steel were fine as it is, but Tera Flying should be removed.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Proof of existence

View attachment 558202

Personally I felt like Tera Flying DD Altaria is not actually good.
Altaria is a bulky setup sweeper, that usually wants to stack up DDs rather than all out attacking due to it's high bulk and (overall) underwhelming attack stat, therefore using the Tera Defensively is overall a much better option. The current Ground and Steel were fine as it is, but Tera Flying should be removed.

Ok

 

[jcbup2016]

Any chance you would consider adding Protect to Zangoose? I've found Zangoose more difficult to use recently just due to the wide spread use of other statuses, new distribution of Knock Off, and overall frailness. I've gotten Zangoose several times over the past few days and almost all instances I found it difficult to find a chance to actually get the toxic orb to go off or risk staying in and getting para/burned, knocked off, or just one shot by something. Thanks!

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Any chance you would consider adding Protect to Zangoose? I've found Zangoose more difficult to use recently just due to the wide spread use of other statuses, new distribution of Knock Off, and overall frailness. I've gotten Zangoose several times over the past few days and almost all instances I found it difficult to find a chance to actually get the toxic orb to go off or risk staying in and getting para/burned, knocked off, or just one shot by something. Thanks!

This idea was brought to the staff; unfortunately, they believe Zangoose already has a powerful instance of four-moveslot syndrome and would not want to decrease the rate of all of its other moves. An alternative proposal of creating a second set of Knock Off, Close Combat, Facade, And Protect with nothing else was also similarly denied. Apologies.

 

[Dratios]

Alright, I complained about this a bit in the randbats room close to when the DLC was released, but now that the dust has settled a bit, I'm wondering how much of an advantage Lash Out confers over Thief on Oinkologne. Checking winrates between August and September, they seem pretty stable for Oink-F, but dropped off for base form, so I don't think it constitutes an objective improvement. Lash Out does have 15 higher BP and the fringe benefit of doubling in power if you get Intimidated or something, but it seems to me like getting an item back has the potential for much higher value - especially since Oinkologne is pretty much only usable effectively if you get Stuff Cheeks off anyway. I read through the codes/roles thread and I don't think I saw anything that would explicitly make that impossible, but if I missed something, please feel free to correct me.

 

[bobomania]

Alright, I complained about this a bit in the randbats room close to when the DLC was released, but now that the dust has settled a bit, I'm wondering how much of an advantage Lash Out confers over Thief on Oinkologne. Checking winrates between August and September, they seem pretty stable for Oink-F, but dropped off for base form, so I don't think it constitutes an objective improvement. Lash Out does have 15 higher BP and the fringe benefit of doubling in power if you get Intimidated or something, but it seems to me like getting an item back has the potential for much higher value - especially since Oinkologne is pretty much only usable effectively if you get Stuff Cheeks off anyway. I read through the codes/roles thread and I don't think I saw anything that would explicitly make that impossible, but if I missed something, please feel free to correct me.

done

 

[Markant015]

I don't really post here that often, but I've battled a lot over the past month and I have two suggestions:

I think Jumpluff is too predictable in it's role, even though it has definitely a potential to fill another role as it has many more support moves. The main issue I have is that you always know what Jumpluff is going to do, which makes it too passive early game.
Jumpluff has access to swords dance and in PU I found it occasionally an excellent late game sweeper due to its high speed and bulk in combination with Infiltrator. I know it's attack stat is nothing to write home about but acrobatics is a strong 110 power move with not too many resistances and can surprise opponents. I suggest adding an Fast Setup set: Acrobatics, Swords Dance, Strength Sap, [Substitute, Sleep Powder]. The most fitting tera type would be obviously Flying to hit harder, but Ground also comes to mind to resist Flying weaknesses.

I personally am not the biggest fan of Avalanche on H-Avalugg because it encourages switching to a special attacker which killed my momentum many times. Is Mountain Gale ever considered? Base 100 move with lower accuracy with a cool flinch rate on top would be way more valuable in most games where you are not dependent on getting hit by an attack. Avalanche doesn't have to be replaced per se but a roll whether H-Avalugg would get Avalanche or Mountain Gale would opponents really think twice before switching in to their neutral special attacker (most Psychic and Ghost types), but also vice versa whether it is smart to use a pivoting move. Would also have better synergy with Rapid Spin.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

I don't really post here that often, but I've battled a lot over the past month and I have two suggestions:

View attachment 561250
I think Jumpluff is too predictable in it's role, even though it has definitely a potential to fill another role as it has many more support moves. The main issue I have is that you always know what Jumpluff is going to do, which makes it too passive early game.
Jumpluff has access to swords dance and in PU I found it occasionally an excellent late game sweeper due to its high speed and bulk in combination with Infiltrator. I know it's attack stat is nothing to write home about but acrobatics is a strong 110 power move with not too many resistances and can surprise opponents. I suggest adding an Fast Setup set: Acrobatics, Swords Dance, Strength Sap, [Substitute, Sleep Powder]. The most fitting tera type would be obviously Flying to hit harder, but Ground also comes to mind to resist Flying weaknesses.

View attachment 561256
I personally am not the biggest fan of Avalanche on H-Avalugg because it encourages switching to a special attacker which killed my momentum many times. Is Mountain Gale ever considered? Base 100 move with lower accuracy with a cool flinch rate on top would be way more valuable in most games where you are not dependent on getting hit by an attack. Avalanche doesn't have to be replaced per se but a roll whether H-Avalugg would get Avalanche or Mountain Gale would opponents really think twice before switching in to their neutral special attacker (most Psychic and Ghost types), but also vice versa whether it is smart to use a pivoting move. Would also have better synergy with Rapid Spin.

These have been proposed to the staff and largely denied. While a mild amount (one user's worth) of support for each of the proposals existed, this was dwarfed by a majority of the Rands staff thinking they'd be ineffective or not worth trying. Jumpluff is simply too weak without EV investment, and Mountain Gale's accuracy is prohibitive given it already runs Stone Edge.

 

[Markant015]

I do not object to the decision made, but I would like to point out one thing. I think it is often better if one mon, if possible, has as much variety as possible in random battles. I understand that my suggestions are not convincingly making a mon better, but it does ensure that opponents do not know immediately what moves/role a Pokémon has.

In doing so, I am mainly talking about the higher ladder where everyone already knows what possible moves a Pokémon can use. And in these games, the utility of a greater variety of sets is then greater than running a mildy inferior set. Same goes for other lower tiered mons that only have a singular role or set (thinking about Chimecho, Oinkologne, Okidogi etc.). So when I try to think about this trade off: versatility of sets and roles vs a small loss of power. And in cases of the mentioned mons I feel like the versatility effect is stronger than the - in my eyes - very marginal loss of power. Do you guys also take this trade-off under consideration?

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

I do not object to the decision made, but I would like to point out one thing. I think it is often better if one mon, if possible, has as much variety as possible in random battles. I understand that my suggestions are not convincingly making a mon better, but it does ensure that opponents do not know immediately what moves/role a Pokémon has.

In doing so, I am mainly talking about the higher ladder where everyone already knows what possible moves a Pokémon can use. And in these games, the utility of a greater variety of sets is then greater than running a mildy inferior set. Same goes for other lower tiered mons that only have a singular role or set (thinking about Chimecho, Oinkologne, Okidogi etc.). So when I try to think about this trade off: versatility of sets and roles vs a small loss of power. And in cases of the mentioned mons I feel like the versatility effect is stronger than the - in my eyes - very marginal loss of power. Do you guys also take this trade-off under consideration?

Maintaining and fostering variety is one of our core design principles; however, it comes with the caveat that the sets should not be drastically worse than their other options and should not cause undue complexity in the format's code. Swords Dance jumpluff, according to the staff, is the former; it will likely be drastically worse than its support sets and will lower its average win rate as a result.

Our next update will be testing out many new variety options to determine if the Pokemon benefit from them; we will track the win rates of the pokemon we change and revert these changes if they are detrimental. Some of our top priorities are to find potential alternate sets that can hold a candle to what the Pokemon already have, especially for the Pokemon that only have one set otherwise. However, that's not always feasible; Okidogi, for example, has consistently been in the top of the win rates since its introduction despite it only having one set; that's because you really can't beat Bulk Up Drain Punch; any other options for that Pokemon would probably also involve Choice items, which we don't want to add more of if we can help it.