Format Discussion Past Gens Random Battle Sets

[NinjaDJCee]

another probably shitty suggestion, but hp fighting > fire would be nice on girafarig

psychic/fighting coverage seems better than psychic/fire coverage
given psychic is the main offensive type, fighting hits two of the three resists for super effective, and while you are walled by other psychic types, they probably cant do much back to you
fire hits steel for super effective, but so does fighting so realistically the only bonus you get with hp fire is hitting psychic types neutrally, and psychic does very close to the same amount of damage anyway
having a PT of fighting would be quite nice imo

 

[El químico del pueblucho]

another probably shitty suggestion, but hp fighting > fire would be nice on girafarig
View attachment 603301
psychic/fighting coverage seems better than psychic/fire coverage
given psychic is the main offensive type, fighting hits two of the three resists for super effective, and while you are walled by other psychic types, they probably cant do much back to you
fire hits steel for super effective, but so does fighting so realistically the only bonus you get with hp fire is hitting psychic types neutrally, and psychic does very close to the same amount of damage anyway
having a PT of fighting would be quite nice imo

maybe to punish scizor but kinda, but i agree w that i mean bpass can fix that problem and tbolt/hp fighting would hit enough hard

 

[NinjaDJCee]

maybe to punish scizor but kinda, but i agree w that i mean bpass can fix that problem and tbolt/hp fighting would hit enough hard

very true
perhaps instead of having fighting as its PT maybe jusr remove hp fire, so that tbolt can still be pulled

 

[Celever]

very true
perhaps instead of having fighting as its PT maybe jusr remove hp fire, so that tbolt can still be pulled

Yeah this is our plan we got to from the original post

Dewgong decision hasn’t been reversed yet but I also oppose the change on a personal level

 

[NinjaDJCee]

Dewgong decision hasn’t been reversed yet but I also oppose the change on a personal level

D:

 

[Celever]

D:

Do you no longer want Encore deleted?

 

[NinjaDJCee]

Do you no longer want Encore deleted?

i do, the D: was to your opinion on not wanting encore deleted lol
auth knows much better than me
did i misunderstand you? i thought the decision was to remove encore but mayb i forget

 

[El químico del pueblucho]

Yeah this is our plan we got to from the original post

Dewgong decision hasn’t been reversed yet but I also oppose the change on a personal level

come on these guys needs to play the game to see how "good" it is rn.

 

[NinjaDJCee]

come on these guys needs to play the game to see how "good" it is rn.

no comment

 

[Celever]

i do, the D: was to your opinion on not wanting encore deleted lol
auth knows much better than me
did i misunderstand you? i thought the decision was to remove encore but mayb i forget

Nah the decision is to remove Encore. I want it to stay still, but I’m the only dissenting voice among the auth so. I had to push for it to not just get deleted during revamp in the first place.

 

[NinjaDJCee]

Nah the decision is to remove Encore. I want it to stay still, but I’m the only dissenting voice among the auth so

ah, i see fair enough

 

[El químico del pueblucho]

Nah the decision is to remove Encore. I want it to stay still, but I’m the only dissenting voice among the auth so. I had to push for it to not just get deleted during revamp in the first place.

really some mons gets very scary in such unfair moments. (Guess we wont have a level balance soon or we will get based on winrates so they can ruin the tier by itself)

 

[NinjaDJCee]

really some mons gets very scary in such unfair moments. (Guess we wont have a level balance soon or we will get based on winrates so they can ruin the tier by itself)

both have their uses, i just think toxic has its uses more than encore does

we should probably stop this back and forth stuff, we both have diff opinions and its taken up like half a page of just one liners

 

[El químico del pueblucho]

both have their uses, i just think toxic has its uses more than encore does

even teres lost aganist an encore dewgong and u can do a great combo with srocks, but whatever this depends on staff

 

[NinjaDJCee]

we should probably stop this back and forth stuff, we both have diff opinions and its taken up like half a page of just one liners

.

even teres lost aganist an encore dewgong and u can do a great combo with srocks, but whatever this depends on staff

okay teres lost to one, that doesnt auto make encore better

 

[El químico del pueblucho]

.

okay teres lost to one, that doesnt auto make encore better

u have to see the battle, i have some battles where encore actually pulls a total battle, while toxic would have been bad. but tbh dunno if serves since wont change the results of the ban.

 

[NinjaDJCee]

we should probably stop this back and forth stuff, we both have diff opinions and its taken up like half a page of just one liners

please

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

I'm incredibly pissed off after every RBEL-related ADV game I've played — be it the actual tour or practice games for tests but the tier's revamp is Fundamentally Not Good.

On paper switching to a role based system is good logic and should be fine, with the actual sets in question are fine in a vacuum but in practice it's pretty much anywhere between complete garbage loadouts or "play either really aggressively or really passively to avoid losing to one (1) thing". Gen 3 is in a fundamentally weird place for oldgens in terms of both mechanics and mons, a lot of game can essentially boil down to a faster mon (which if a pinch berry set will probably trade significantly at worst) winning which with the generation's power level means you're not often killing something (also often pinch berry sweepers!) in one hit without having to trade significantly...again!

Now that seems contradictory but it's more often the case that even with 1-2 of the right sets can pressure teams into folding immediately. I've had games where 1 mon will literally dictate a whole game with enough snowballing (for example if I didn't crit miltank the game probably ended there). On the flipside you can have teams where you'll load 1-2 unmons at once (I had a Ditto and Unown in one practice game) and that's essentially just fighting handicapped.

A lot of the pinch berry sets are really egregious to me as well. More often than not trying to navigate it into a situation where salac setup/swim petaya doesn't grab a few kills is really difficult in practice. Linoone in particular is a very bad offender of this (and why I'm writing this post because of the replay where I just lost to it on fucking LEAD because of not calling a bad 50/50 on Explosion or gambling with offensive scare tactics with a fighting type). These are all just issues to pile on top of the variance you'd likely get in the average game anyway (para/flinch/crits/ rolling rest on sleep talk repeatedly etc) which just puts the tier in this messy, unfun place of playing. I'm imploring that after rbtt/rbel are over or even earlier if possible, a lot of these games get looked at and sets edited to something at least fun to play. I'll add more examples to this post if needed, but at the very least I hope people take this post to discuss and share their thoughts on the current version of the tier.

 

[livid washed]

I'm incredibly pissed off after every RBEL-related ADV game I've played — be it the actual tour or practice games for tests but the tier's revamp is Fundamentally Not Good.

On paper switching to a role based system is good logic and should be fine, with the actual sets in question are fine in a vacuum but in practice it's pretty much anywhere between complete garbage loadouts or "play either really aggressively or really passively to avoid losing to one (1) thing". Gen 3 is in a fundamentally weird place for oldgens in terms of both mechanics and mons, a lot of game can essentially boil down to a faster mon (which if a pinch berry set will probably trade significantly at worst) winning which with the generation's power level means you're not often killing something (also often pinch berry sweepers!) in one hit without having to trade significantly...again!

Now that seems contradictory but it's more often the case that even with 1-2 of the right sets can pressure teams into folding immediately. I've had games where 1 mon will literally dictate a whole game with enough snowballing (for example if I didn't crit miltank the game probably ended there). On the flipside you can have teams where you'll load 1-2 unmons at once (I had a Ditto and Unown in one practice game) and that's essentially just fighting handicapped.

A lot of the pinch berry sets are really egregious to me as well. More often than not trying to navigate it into a situation where salac setup/swim petaya doesn't grab a few kills is really difficult in practice. Linoone in particular is a very bad offender of this (and why I'm writing this post because of the replay where I just lost to it on fucking LEAD because of not calling a bad 50/50 on Explosion or gambling with offensive scare tactics with a fighting type). These are all just issues to pile on top of the variance you'd likely get in the average game anyway (para/flinch/crits/ rolling rest on sleep talk repeatedly etc) which just puts the tier in this messy, unfun place of playing. I'm imploring that after rbtt/rbel are over or even earlier if possible, a lot of these games get looked at and sets edited to something at least fun to play. I'll add more examples to this post if needed, but at the very least I hope people take this post to discuss and share their thoughts on the current version of the tier.

We will not be removing good sets from the format. Your examples of petaya berry rain dance huntail, curse miltank, and belly drum linoone, are all good sets. As per the principles of random battles, every Pokemon is given their optimal set(s), and Pokemon are balanced via their levels. In other words, we do not deliberately make a Pokemon's sets worse.

complete garbage loadouts

I would strongly advise you to direct your efforts to this end of the spectrum. We will consider any suggestion, that is aimed at improving a Pokemon's sets, seriously. This could mean removing or improving suboptimal sets that currently exist, or adding an additional set to complement an existing set.

On the flipside you can have teams where you'll load 1-2 unmons at once (I had a Ditto and Unown in one practice game) and that's essentially just fighting handicapped.

We recently implemented a limit of 1 level 100 Pokemon per team, so this specific example is no longer possible.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

We will not be removing good sets from the format. Your examples of petaya berry rain dance huntail, curse miltank, and belly drum linoone, are all good sets. As per the principles of random battles, every Pokemon is given their optimal set(s), and Pokemon are balanced via their levels. In other words, we do not deliberately make a Pokemon's sets worse.

I would strongly advise you to direct your efforts to this end of the spectrum. We will consider any suggestion, that is aimed at improving a Pokemon's sets, seriously. This could mean removing or improving suboptimal sets that currently exist, or adding an additional set to complement an existing set.

We recently implemented a limit of 1 level 100 Pokemon per team, so this specific example is no longer possible.

I think you're misunderstanding my post. I'm not singling out these specific sets or berry sweepers as a whole completely broken.

My specific argument here is the current set balancing as a whole is fairly unbalanced. I've talked this over with an RBTT manager who agreed that "yes, the format is temporarily not balanced; if you're losing games cause you can't react to some threats, that's normal at this point in time".

I'm trying to get a jumpstart on identifying areas I think are good to start on. Constantly loading teams that have individually good sets in a vacuum but struggle to hold up in the context of the game has been a common enough experience that's made the revamp not an enjoyable experience. While this will probably resolve itself on its own in due time with each monthly update, I do think it's worth pointing out at this point in time that a lot of the complete teams you're likely to pull at this point more often than not can lose pretty easily.

Another thing that came up in my separate discussion I neglected to mention is how Baton Pass enables setup to be even stronger in this current iteration. Optimized sets with freer stat passes are already unhealthy, and definitely not adding to this tier's current state of variance.

 

[livid washed]

I think you're misunderstanding my post. I'm not singling out these specific sets or berry sweepers as a whole completely broken.

My specific argument here is the current set balancing as a whole is fairly unbalanced. I've talked this over with an RBTT manager who agreed that "yes, the format is temporarily not balanced; if you're losing games cause you can't react to some threats, that's normal at this point in time".

Ok, I understand. The revamp occured just over a month ago, so the format is still relatively unbalanced. As the manager and you indicated, this will improve with time.

I'm trying to get a jumpstart on identifying areas I think are good to start on. Constantly loading teams that have individually good sets in a vacuum but struggle to hold up in the context of the game has been a common enough experience that's made the revamp not an enjoyable experience. While this will probably resolve itself on its own in due time with each monthly update, I do think it's worth pointing out at this point in time that a lot of the complete teams you're likely to pull at this point more often than not can lose pretty easily.

I was trying to say that complaining about sets being "too good" isn't helpful, because we don't remove them, we balance them by level. It's more productive to identify Pokemon which have bad sets (which includes sets that are consistently "individually good in a vacuum but struggle to hold up" as you mentioned) and suggest improvements to them.

For example, we just recently removed trap pass Umbreon, because many players found it bad compared to its other sets.

 

[El químico del pueblucho]

Ok, I understand. The revamp occured just over a month ago, so the format is still relatively unbalanced. As the manager and you indicated, this will improve with time.

I was trying to say that complaining about sets being "too good" isn't helpful, because we don't remove them, we balance them by level. It's more productive to identify Pokemon which have bad sets (which includes sets that are consistently "individually good in a vacuum but struggle to hold up" as you mentioned) and suggest improvements to them.

For example, we just recently removed trap pass Umbreon, because many players found it bad compared to its other sets.

hopely bc mons seems more unbalanced than before (why 100 level mons exist while unown and luvdisk gets that level is a thing that needs to change as example. Still changes are good like minun and Plsule sharing same movepool but different level (hope that wont change), also Delcatty movepool is interesting to say the least

 

[NinjaDJCee]

i cant find the screenshot, but in gen 3 forretress can generate a choice band set if it doesnt pull any hazards, is there any way to prevent this, perhaps with some sort of clause that prevents choice band being selected if rapid spin is a move?
maybe choice band forretress can be good with banded explosion but given how precious hazard removal is, even in a gen without stealth rocks, i would rather my spinner not be choice locked

 

[bobomania]

i cant find the screenshot, but in gen 3 forretress can generate a choice band set if it doesnt pull any hazards, is there any way to prevent this, perhaps with some sort of clause that prevents choice band being selected if rapid spin is a move?
maybe choice band forretress can be good with banded explosion but given how precious hazard removal is, even in a gen without stealth rocks, i would rather my spinner not be choice locked

i can bring this up, some people wanted rapid spin to allow choice band during the revamp but i dont know how its worked out in practice

 

[NinjaDJCee]

i can bring this up, some people wanted rapid spin to allow choice band during the revamp but i dont know how its worked out in practice

gotta love rapid spin doing 11% instead of 7%