Baton Pass is not banned in generations before gen 5. Since ridiculously overpowered boosting moves like shell smash and quiver dance don't exist, the auth and council don't think baton pass needs to be banned at this point.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Format Discussion Past Gens Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter A Cake Wearing A Hat
- Start date
u missunderstood the question lol, was talking about bpass with sd and agil, which are clearly banned in dpp, game becomes a joke once u deal perfectly the pass
PD: if still missunderstood bpass 2 different stats is broken imagine bpass into a zangoose +2 attack +2 speed
Baton pass is not banned, or restricted, in randbats in generations before 5. Any combination of moves, boosting or otherwise, with baton pass is allowed, as long as the moves are individually allowed (so no evasion boosting moves).
If any action is taken against baton pass in the future, it will be via the rands development council, and will probably be a ban on baton pass. In the absence of such action, sd + agility + baton pass sets are allowed, just as sd + baton pass ninjask is allowed.
I hope this sheds some light on the current status of baton pass in Gens 2-4 Random Battles.
Last edited:
Hopely it gets gets or a least restricted bc Bpass was unbanned in DPP but only a soft version of it which doesn allow u to pass stat changes, sd+agil bpass sets shouldn't have to be broken.
At the very best we check the Ubers banlists, but even there, since we got a council, that doesn't even apply anymore. OU bans mean nothing for Randbats
Came across a Bulky Attacker Dewgong set the other day in DPP Randbats with the move set
Rain Dance/Surf/Rest/(Encore/Toxic)
I believe this set limits Dewgong’s versatility by giving it only one attacking move and having two moves that are imo functionally very similar, with a few differences.
Rain Dance i) Boosts Water-type moves by 50% ii) Weakens Fire-type moves by 50% iii) Activates Dewgong’s Hydration ability.
Under very niche circumstances you could roll a swift swim user (or have something be changed to swift swim) that could benefit from this, but with limited turns it becomes unlikely and unreliable, and your opponent could roll one too.
The boost to water type moves can be useful when the opponent has no water resist, but dewgong becomes dead weight when they do, being unable to deal much meaningful damage. The weakened fire moves is can be helpful, but most fire types won’t want to come in on dewgong and quite a few carry super effective coverage moves for it (eg TFang Arcanine or Superpower Flareon)
Healing statuses on Dewgong is relatively negligible because Dewgong is guaranteed to also pull rest, which removes status and heals to full at the downside of making you unable to move for 2 turns following. Keeping in mind Rain Dance takes an extra turn to set up, Rest heals to full and heals status in exchange for essentially 1 turn immobile, while rain dance only heals status. RD can be better in certain niche situations where the other effects are useful but overall this is unlikely and limits what Dewgong can do in a game.
Having a roll for encore or toxic is quite annoying too because encore generally isn’t going to get much use when Dewgong can’t do much in return for except setup rain dance.
Having Toxic is much more useful but it is only useful because Dewgong can’t do more damage by attacking with pitiful attacking stats and limited attacking moves as mentioned. At the least, Toxic should be guaranteed so Dewgong isn’t incredibly easily walled by any water resist and might be able to stall certain pokemon but even this is unlikely imo
Rain Dance/Surf/Rest/(Encore/Toxic)
I believe this set limits Dewgong’s versatility by giving it only one attacking move and having two moves that are imo functionally very similar, with a few differences.
Rain Dance i) Boosts Water-type moves by 50% ii) Weakens Fire-type moves by 50% iii) Activates Dewgong’s Hydration ability.
Under very niche circumstances you could roll a swift swim user (or have something be changed to swift swim) that could benefit from this, but with limited turns it becomes unlikely and unreliable, and your opponent could roll one too.
The boost to water type moves can be useful when the opponent has no water resist, but dewgong becomes dead weight when they do, being unable to deal much meaningful damage. The weakened fire moves is can be helpful, but most fire types won’t want to come in on dewgong and quite a few carry super effective coverage moves for it (eg TFang Arcanine or Superpower Flareon)
Healing statuses on Dewgong is relatively negligible because Dewgong is guaranteed to also pull rest, which removes status and heals to full at the downside of making you unable to move for 2 turns following. Keeping in mind Rain Dance takes an extra turn to set up, Rest heals to full and heals status in exchange for essentially 1 turn immobile, while rain dance only heals status. RD can be better in certain niche situations where the other effects are useful but overall this is unlikely and limits what Dewgong can do in a game.
Having a roll for encore or toxic is quite annoying too because encore generally isn’t going to get much use when Dewgong can’t do much in return for except setup rain dance.
Having Toxic is much more useful but it is only useful because Dewgong can’t do more damage by attacking with pitiful attacking stats and limited attacking moves as mentioned. At the least, Toxic should be guaranteed so Dewgong isn’t incredibly easily walled by any water resist and might be able to stall certain pokemon but even this is unlikely imo
Last edited:
The purpose of the set is to use Hydration in connection with Rain Dance in order to get free full heals. When rain is up, the sleep you get from Rest goes away immediately, so you can heal 99% of your HP and status in one move with no drawbacks. Boosting Surf is a nice additional boon, as it gives Dewgong more offensive presence, but it's not the full point of the set.
It's a slightly tricky set to use properly and you need to keep track of your rain turns, but it is good. Dewgong sometimes isn't bulky enough to be able to Toxic stall with only Rest, too. Rest means you lose to anything that 3HKOs you, but Rest + Rain Dance only makes you lose to 2HKOs at most.
uh, i somehow forgot hydration removed sleep too, mb
i still think even with the free full heals the lack of stab can be annoying, and i still stand by that i think toxic > encore, but i see the point of it now lmao
XD Also encore is really vauable in the gen whwere u can lose with the first nasty plor/swords dance
very true, but you would have to be leading dewgong to get the encore off and most people would be aware of it
it can prevent them from ever clicking it but not actually do anything per se, and the nasty plot mon can just find a different chance to nasty plot/sd
and most setup sweepers will be faster than dewgong so it can at the most sac itself to lock it into one attacking move which probably does 50% to your resist at +2
after some discussion with auth, we'll probably remove encore from that set but keep toxic
ye ur right but stopping them is good enough for me, i mean last time a guy tried to nasty plot plusle twice, 2nd attempt worked thought but srock damage is appreciated (same with dragon dance users)
believe me toxic is less valuable than encore by a lot
that’s assuming said nasty plot user doesn’t OHKO dew immediately, and they can still switch out and come back later after they kill Dewgong and can’t be encored after then.
idk man, saccing a Pokémon to stop a setup sweeper once seems not very valuable when they usually can just ko you and come back later
encore is usually dead weight if they don’t have a setup abuser and toxic seems much more valuable
edit: forgot to mention abt the plusle, I’m quite confused what you mean, like did they nasty plot twice in a row? or two times separately within that game
also nasty plotting again is just plain greedy, risking it being encore is just so unnecessary
and not every team has rocks to benefit from that
Last edited:
nasty plot/Swords dance users now arent that weak just saying, they have huge potential for a full sweep if u dont have a mon that can resist their attacks. saccing dewgong is valuable if that doesnt led u into a worse situation, with Encore u also can push out curse mon or causea switch when done in the right moment
yeah ofc they are strong, but using dewgong like a one-time setup sweeper stopper pass isnt great when as i said they can come back again
you mentioned encore can force out curse mons, that is true but just listing niche benefits of encore doesnt acknowledge the fact that toxic has plenty of uses too, and can also be nice to “stop” setup sweepers when stalling by resting w/o rain can rack up 40-60% easily, which can be much more helpful than saccing a whole pokemon to stop something one time
imagine a situation where salamence dragon dances as you switch dewgong in. you can either encore them into outrage as it does 80% and you pray you have a steel type, or toxic them and make sure they never fully sweep you and can be picked off with priority/weak attacks from defensive mons. that comparison is where encore is the most useful, on a general scale toxic is definitely better than encore when not every team has a setup sweeper
Saw that Manectric only has one set and very little variation in that, the only difference being flamethrower or overheat. Perhaps a fast attacker expert belt/ life orb set could be nice, to make manectric less linear in what its going to do.
If given four special attacks, Manectric will only generate a choice item in the Random Battles algorithm. Allowing ebelt or life orb on it would require hardcoding for solely Manectric, which is undesirable.
just reread the code, idk how i missed that mb
But also toxic would do worse, that is my point
elaborate on how toxic would do worse
with dewgongs mid speed stat you arent encoring anything important unless you predict them to setup in front of you
meanwhile spreading toxic through a taem is always valuable when maybe 1/3 of teams have a poison type/heal bell
encore only does well against bad plays, setup sweepers and curse mons.
if i wanted to use the set, i would rather find one opportunity to toxic and then focus on getting the rain turns right than having a useless moveslot and having to find multiple opportunities to surf. if opposing pokemon has recovery, its a losing battle
Simple dd users tends to have lum berry, many mons can have subs, and u cant do anything aganist curse mons. Toxic is more a lure than anything (more when u can face another hidratation mon)
Even with Encore, Rosst users aren't free to spam them
maybe they have lum berry, then what else can you do
in that specific situation encore is better, but youve still ignored that toxic is more useful overall
yes, all 3 hydration users
and encore doesnt do much anyway you cant touch them back
if you had toxic they would have to set up rain dance for you
encoring into roost is nice, but again they can just come back at a later date meanwhile toxic stops them from stalling your weak attackers endgame
almost everything dislikes getting toxic'd, while only some things dislike being encored
Thats my point toxic is good, but encore is also a thing to take in notes, it depends on how the game goes and being more umpredictable will make the things more balanced
fair point, if encore was removed there would be no uncertanty on that last slot so the pokemon that would be cautious of encore now arent worried about it