So its a common argument that X checks Y and Z and without X , Y and Z would be overpowered . This even came up during the Melmetal suspect last gen stating that banning Melm would let Clef get out of hand ( ofc Melm was not as broken as pao . ) Simply put - Broken checks broken is not a solution . If X is overpowered and unhealthy for the metagame , it has to go . If that makes Y or Z broken , well - suspect it is . Chien-Pao is not the only way through Dondozo . Lmao SD Pao cannot even beat hbd phys def Dondozo . If i go to a teambuilder and I need a Garg counter , its not like Pao will be my only option . Greninja is back which is also a dark type with ice type coverage . Meowscarada checks Garg , Ghol and Dozo .Dozo itself checks the first 2 dragons . In my opinion - and I believe others think so too , a broken mon checking another broken mon , is not the solution to get a healthy metagame . If banning pao makes anything overpowered , well then that will have to go too .
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Munch
- Thread starter Finchinator
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TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Doubt I'll get reqs since I am busy af, but I would probably vote Ban. The main reason I would vote ban is just how strong Chien Pao is into offense on top of stall. Chien Pao breaking through stall sometimes is fine; we have plenty of Pokemon that can make stall have a bad time. The issue is Chien Pao is also probably the best form of speed control in the metagame. The weasel outspeeds the entire tier unboosted except for Dragapult, who can't revenge kill it without the fear of Sucker Punch or Ice Shard. If Chien Pao was just good into Offense or Stall, I would be fine. But it is just great into both.
It also does not help the hazards metagame can be rough in SV. For both offense and stall, that layer of spikes on top of rocks makes Pao counterplay even harder. I would be interested in a retest after HOME/DLC if transfer moves/tutors help make hazard removal more reasonable. Either way, rn it’s just a little too much so I’d vote ban.
It also does not help the hazards metagame can be rough in SV. For both offense and stall, that layer of spikes on top of rocks makes Pao counterplay even harder. I would be interested in a retest after HOME/DLC if transfer moves/tutors help make hazard removal more reasonable. Either way, rn it’s just a little too much so I’d vote ban.
I've also got stuff going on so probably won't have time to get reqs. But having used Pao for a while now, I can't justify keeping this thing in OU. Hitting for over 50% on (presumably physically defensive) Corviknight and Dondozo with no setup (I run band tera dark) off of jolly nature neutral STAB alone is not okay. As in, come in and immediately 2shot two of the most bulky Pokemon in the meta. I was neutral on the Chi Yu ban at first. But Pao is without a shadow of a doubt simply too strong for OU. I feel like with some setup Espathra is more busted but the thing is you can splash Pao onto most teams whereas the emu needs support. All Pao needs is hazard control to dominate games.
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Bro the use of stats are based on what people think or what people want it's not based on the Pokemon being good itself no one cares about how much it's used if the Pokemon's good toxpex is still a good pokemon. I don't care what the usage stats say. If it can still do something Im fine.
Hai people...... i've recently gotten recs and I'll be voting ban on chien-pao
I don't want to repeat what everybody was saying about chien-pao. But in short, chien-pao is way too strong for this tier and it's CB set is impossible to wall with fat. And with the boots sd set it cooks the entire offensive metagame. yadda yadda
The reason why I was somewhat hesitant to vote ban on chien-pao was because of it's incredible ability to be a wallbreaker against crazy fat like Garg, Donbozo and etc. I actually liked what it did for the tier in that aspect. However, being the best wallbreaker/stallkiller and being the best offense killer all in 1 is what we like to call broken. So after thinking about it banning it does feel like the right decision.
with that being said..... after this ban I would really like to see a garg + espathra suspect test coming soon. both of these mons are so fucking annoying. (garg is fucking broken btw). tbh i contemplated voting no-ban on the leopard just bc of how stupid garg can be sometimes.
I don't want to repeat what everybody was saying about chien-pao. But in short, chien-pao is way too strong for this tier and it's CB set is impossible to wall with fat. And with the boots sd set it cooks the entire offensive metagame. yadda yadda
The reason why I was somewhat hesitant to vote ban on chien-pao was because of it's incredible ability to be a wallbreaker against crazy fat like Garg, Donbozo and etc. I actually liked what it did for the tier in that aspect. However, being the best wallbreaker/stallkiller and being the best offense killer all in 1 is what we like to call broken. So after thinking about it banning it does feel like the right decision.
with that being said..... after this ban I would really like to see a garg + espathra suspect test coming soon. both of these mons are so fucking annoying. (garg is fucking broken btw). tbh i contemplated voting no-ban on the leopard just bc of how stupid garg can be sometimes.
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Banning Chien-Pao is really not an open and shut case. It's undoubtedly the best offensive mon currently but that doesn´t equal broken. That being said...
1. Most counterplay involves burning your own Tera. While this maybe not be seen as that big of a deal considering that Chien only forces this by burning its own tera, it really is worth noting that this still extremely prediction reliant. Also, all counterplay listed pertains to Tera Dark Chien, Chien can easily nae nae on those answers by Teratyping into another type that is not Dark (that's Tera for you!). Chien is a Tera abuser after all and it is not forced to run Tera Dark to be menacing, it's just that the Meta has not developed that far yet, but trust me, it WILL if we keep it in the tier.
2. Paldean-Tauros is extremely overrated. It is a subpar mon in the OU metagame and it baffles me its being used as an actual argument against the Chien-Pao ban. It IS viable and has a niche, but saying "this OU mon can be handled by an UU/RU mon!" is not the argument you think it is, lmao. Yes I know it coud still rise to OU but I firmly doubt it, and if it does, it's not cause it really fits the Meta, but rather because its niche of checking Chien will become a necessity for some teams (and that just means some Chien Paos will start running Psychic Fangs anyways in the rare case another team member couldn't easily beat Tauros, cuz dealing with Tauros really ain't that hard in OU).
3. Broken checks broken means nothing. Chien checking some other broken shit is the worst argument ever against its ban! "Hurr durr Garg will get out of control!" Ok then we shall ban Garg too! And whatever else spills out of control cuz of the lack of Chien Pao! This has been said a trillion times!
4. "It makes Stall better"? That's great! Stall is in such a rough spot it could really use some help. Are you sure you're listing negatives? Or do you just hate stall so much you're willing to ignore blatant metagame problems just to keep a barely viable strategy nerfed? Why? Stall is not uncompetitive (and if you think it is, you have no idea what uncompetitive is).
5. "But priority!". Not a single relevant priority move OHKOs Chien Pao if it already Terastilized into a pure dark Type, unless said move was already boosted by Swords Dance. The only exceptions are Banded Mach Punch Breloom (who still gets outspeed and OHKOd by Ice Shard without its precious Focus Sash. Tera Fighting Focus Sash could do the trick I guess but that's a suboptimal use of Tera) and Tera Normal ESpeed DNite (only +2 is a guaranteed OHKO, but since Speed is +2 priority move Tera Normal Dragonite only needs to survive one turn to kill Chien since ESpeed is a guaranteed 2OHKO at +0. Although a -1 Tera Normal or a +0 Regular DNite are not 2OHKOing Chien, I don't think that's much of an issue). And remember, this is just regarding the Tera Dark Banded set! (I am excluding Psychic Terrain out of the conversation cuz I can't criticize the use of P-Tauros as an argument and then use Indeedee as MY argument lmao).
However, to be fair, if you predict Chien right, it becomes fairly easy to deal with. Priority can also deal with it swiftly if SOME chip damage was done previously or if the attack is boosted beyond just a Choice Band, and while checking him usually requires you to use your tera, it often involves various viable Pokemon turning into types they already wanted to turn into anyways, like Dondozo Fairy or Dragonite Normal.
That said, even if Chien is banned, the most likely scenario is that it will get retested after Home drops! The dex is really limited right now and answers can be difficult to find, but I have no doubt Chien-Pao will perfectly fit in SV OU after Home drops. I see banning him just as temporary solution. I'm in favor of a BAN and will try to get reqs.
In conclusion: Ciao ciao Chien-Pao, see you after Home drops!
1. Most counterplay involves burning your own Tera. While this maybe not be seen as that big of a deal considering that Chien only forces this by burning its own tera, it really is worth noting that this still extremely prediction reliant. Also, all counterplay listed pertains to Tera Dark Chien, Chien can easily nae nae on those answers by Teratyping into another type that is not Dark (that's Tera for you!). Chien is a Tera abuser after all and it is not forced to run Tera Dark to be menacing, it's just that the Meta has not developed that far yet, but trust me, it WILL if we keep it in the tier.
2. Paldean-Tauros is extremely overrated. It is a subpar mon in the OU metagame and it baffles me its being used as an actual argument against the Chien-Pao ban. It IS viable and has a niche, but saying "this OU mon can be handled by an UU/RU mon!" is not the argument you think it is, lmao. Yes I know it coud still rise to OU but I firmly doubt it, and if it does, it's not cause it really fits the Meta, but rather because its niche of checking Chien will become a necessity for some teams (and that just means some Chien Paos will start running Psychic Fangs anyways in the rare case another team member couldn't easily beat Tauros, cuz dealing with Tauros really ain't that hard in OU).
3. Broken checks broken means nothing. Chien checking some other broken shit is the worst argument ever against its ban! "Hurr durr Garg will get out of control!" Ok then we shall ban Garg too! And whatever else spills out of control cuz of the lack of Chien Pao! This has been said a trillion times!
4. "It makes Stall better"? That's great! Stall is in such a rough spot it could really use some help. Are you sure you're listing negatives? Or do you just hate stall so much you're willing to ignore blatant metagame problems just to keep a barely viable strategy nerfed? Why? Stall is not uncompetitive (and if you think it is, you have no idea what uncompetitive is).
5. "But priority!". Not a single relevant priority move OHKOs Chien Pao if it already Terastilized into a pure dark Type, unless said move was already boosted by Swords Dance. The only exceptions are Banded Mach Punch Breloom (who still gets outspeed and OHKOd by Ice Shard without its precious Focus Sash. Tera Fighting Focus Sash could do the trick I guess but that's a suboptimal use of Tera) and Tera Normal ESpeed DNite (only +2 is a guaranteed OHKO, but since Speed is +2 priority move Tera Normal Dragonite only needs to survive one turn to kill Chien since ESpeed is a guaranteed 2OHKO at +0. Although a -1 Tera Normal or a +0 Regular DNite are not 2OHKOing Chien, I don't think that's much of an issue). And remember, this is just regarding the Tera Dark Banded set! (I am excluding Psychic Terrain out of the conversation cuz I can't criticize the use of P-Tauros as an argument and then use Indeedee as MY argument lmao).
However, to be fair, if you predict Chien right, it becomes fairly easy to deal with. Priority can also deal with it swiftly if SOME chip damage was done previously or if the attack is boosted beyond just a Choice Band, and while checking him usually requires you to use your tera, it often involves various viable Pokemon turning into types they already wanted to turn into anyways, like Dondozo Fairy or Dragonite Normal.
That said, even if Chien is banned, the most likely scenario is that it will get retested after Home drops! The dex is really limited right now and answers can be difficult to find, but I have no doubt Chien-Pao will perfectly fit in SV OU after Home drops. I see banning him just as temporary solution. I'm in favor of a BAN and will try to get reqs.
In conclusion: Ciao ciao Chien-Pao, see you after Home drops!
I don't think I'm going to get reqs, but if I do, I'm voting ban. I think that we can all agree that this is an unbalanced metagame. The power level is just too high. The "broken checks broken" problem goes down too many levels. Chien-Pao is the top of the chain that needs to be followed in order to source this. It doesn't really lose to anything viable. Every counter that it supposedly has is massively flawed either in its Chien-Pao matchup or in general.
The Paldean Tauros twins don't have much of a use outside of Pao and are easily chipped.
Quaquaval can't take sacred sword pressure.
Breloom's mach punches lose to Pao's faster ice shard.
Dondozo takes too much from banded tera dark crunch.
Dragapult gets destroyed by both sucker and ice shard.
Garg dies to just a couple of crunches.
Scarf Gholdengo can be beaten by sucker punch.
Kingambit drops to sacred sword.
Scizor's bullet punch is slower than sucker.
Pex is pressured by tera dark crunch.
I know that these points have already been made in this thread, it's just that they cannot be overstated. Between its banded and SD sets, Chien-Pao doesn't lose to any pokemon or team style.
The Paldean Tauros twins don't have much of a use outside of Pao and are easily chipped.
Quaquaval can't take sacred sword pressure.
Breloom's mach punches lose to Pao's faster ice shard.
Dondozo takes too much from banded tera dark crunch.
Dragapult gets destroyed by both sucker and ice shard.
Garg dies to just a couple of crunches.
Scarf Gholdengo can be beaten by sucker punch.
Kingambit drops to sacred sword.
Scizor's bullet punch is slower than sucker.
Pex is pressured by tera dark crunch.
I know that these points have already been made in this thread, it's just that they cannot be overstated. Between its banded and SD sets, Chien-Pao doesn't lose to any pokemon or team style.
This is going to be my first time ever actually participating and being able to vote in a suspect test. I’ve been reading all (or most) of the threads within the forum, and I completely understand why people would think chien-pao is overbearing. While I do understand this sentiment, in all the games I’ve played thus far, I have not come to the same conclusion. The two main sets that I see folks running are either heavy duty boots with swords dance or choice band, both of which provide their own benefits. I find that choice band sets are much more dangerous and consistent game in and game out as they have immediate wall breaking power for the user to take advantage of and tear a huge whole in the opponents team, or at least severely cripple them. But even so, in the games I find myself in, against chien-pao, while definitely a threat, it’s never been an issue. A part of this is because choice band is the most ran set and choice band, while providing excellent immediate power, also keeps chien-pao locked into whatever move it’s chosen, allowing you to appropriately scout what the user is going for. Another flaw chien-pao has are its vulnerabilities to both stealth rock and spikes. On top of all that, protect easily scouts what you’re locked into and eases prediction. Obviously the stealth rock weakness and spikes vulnerability can easily be patched up with the use of heavy duty boots but this means that you give up immediate power, making chien-pao significantly weaker and easier to deal with. Even with swords dance, it takes up a move slot which limits its coverage options and also requires a turn setting up. It might be easy to get a free turn to setup your swords dance to boost your power to that wall breaking level, it doesn’t prevent it from getting statused, revenge killed by choice scarfers or by priorities moves. I’ve found that volcarona burning chien-pao is one of the easiest and most effective ways of handling it. It helps that its base typing (dark/ice) is a very poor defensive typing. One of the things that I do find very annoying about chien-pao is the fact that it has priority itself. It doesn’t make it broken by no means but it does limit opportunity for revenge killers, especially if it’s running both its priority moves (ice shard and sucker punch) on the same set. Even if the priority move doesn’t kill, it’ll do big damage if your mon doesn’t resist or have bulk before you’re able to revenge kill, giving opportunity to another teammate for weakening that mon.
All in all, while chien-pao is a very strong and versatile Pokémon and is definitely worthy of a team slot on nearly all teams, it’s mon that I don’t see being broken at all and is very manageable both defensively and offensively. I will be voting no ban
"I am going to scout Chien Pao"
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 252-298 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
"Ok, now I'll go to my resist!"
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 218-257 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
"Well...I have the best physical wall in the tier!"
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 238-280 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
"Uh..."
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 200 HP / 180+ Def Quaquaval: 161-190 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
"..."
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 155-183 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
just say you mean you sack half (or 70%) of a mon's health to see if you can switch to great tusk
i hope this hypothetical team you've built has a sixth mon that can answer iron hands because as of right now you have four electric weaknesses and a fighting double weakness
this person is fighting 6 chien pao
You don't really scout it. Well, not without running very specific Pokemon combos. The power of banded Pao makes scouting it unfeasible unless you're running toxapex+dark resist, which still isn't perfect because tera dark crunch can break past even dark resists with some chip. You also mention Protect, but there isn't a lot of protect users in the tier. In fact the only that come to mind is RotomW, who is usually pivoting into Pao, and stealth rock Garganacl which also is pivoting into it.
What Pokemon is statusing it that isn't mortally terrified of it? How are any Pokemon statusing it? What choice scarfers are revenging sd Pao that aren't mortally terrified of +2 sucker punch? And priority itself is inconsistent because of its own priority, which needs to be bullet Punch or mach punch to threaten it, and Pao's own priority beats both users of these moves.
How exactly is Volcarona burning it? Pao is faster, banded crunch threatens an OHKO potentially (guaranteed with tiny chip or tera), and it can't switch in. Flame body can burn, but relying on that to try and check it by crippling the mon speaks to the negative impact it has on the tier.
Apologies in advance if you think this post is toxic, but this statement makes no sense. It’s like saying SD Kingambit is garbage due to a lack of coverage. You don’t even need to run if you want, and replace it for coverage which is only really Psychic Fangs as crunch hits like a truck.
Yea you only got 1 chance to proc it if you switch it in.
Chien Pao has a comparable attack stat to Black Kyurem once you factor in its ability, and this gen’s gimmick allows you to give a mon an adaptability boost. Yea ”scout” Tera dark banded crunches when the best physical wall in the tier (Dondozo) dies to 2 of them.
SD set CAN run priority of its own. Furthermore, if you switch in a Pokémon that has a priority move or it normally slower than Pao, it’s a red flag and they will likely use priority,
Then why do you say that SD pao can easily be revenge killed.
Please stop having the "big post= I’m smarter” mindset as even your chunk of text can be disproved with short answers.
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Dude. I don't know how in the name of Arceus you can find Chien-Pao to be "manageable both offensively and defensively" when all signs point the opposite direction.
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 238-280 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
This is where I say "Uh-oh..."
This sounds more like "sacrifice Volcarona in the hopes that a 30% chance rolls in my favour despite the fact that I'd have sacrificed it for nothing more often than not". Sorry, but this is desperate as fuck and points more in favour of why the damn thing needs to get banished to the shadow realm.
Choice Scarf is exploitable, and Chien-Pao has priority of its own. Of course, a savvy player would see either of those taking the field as a red flag, and thus will either switch out or use priority.
How would you status it?? Prankster (which is ineffective on Chien-Pao, by the way)?
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A reminder that the suspect ends on Friday the 10th, not Sunday the 12th.
wdym chien-pao is broken? It's a perfectly fine defensive swords dancer, and– ok who am i kidding chien-pao is absolutely busted when you're using an actual set and not whatever the hell my defensive chien-pao is running, BAN
For real though I feel like I'm not skilled enough to get reqs but I'm still going to put my opinion forwards
It is alright, but due to the fact that most counterplay requires tera to beat it if it has tera, then it is quite busted. Breloom and Scizor should be excellent checks, but it can ice shard to beat Breloom and tera to survive a bullet punch (or, y'know, switch out). To the people saying Paldean Tauros is a good check, no it is not it can be easily punished by switching out into Pult, Hatt, Garg, Gholdengo (last 2 is a bit sketch tho), and even then Chien-Pao can reveal a surprise tera flying tera blast and OHKO it
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Flying Chien-Pao Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tauros-Paldea-Fire: 230-272 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
(Well maybe you don't have that much hazards but still dealing 70% to a 'check' should not happen)
To the people saying Chien-Pao handles Gholdengo, uh no that's not how it works, Gholdengo is overrated and dies to half the meta, it's not immune to everything ok?
Chien-Pao does not deal with Dondozo at all since many of them run body press, so don't bring up that
Chien-Pao cannot check Garg without icicle crash flinch hax which is even more unhealthy, and should not be your primary way of dealing with garg
Remember that this isn't 1000 elo OU between 2 noobs, and switching is a thing, so Pao users can switch out of bad matchups and re-enter later, while many of its 'checks' can't re-enter much
Broken checks Broken is unhealthy and should not be how OU is played. You might as well unban Miraidon because it checks Dondozo if you insist on BcB
remember that you're not playing a 6v1 against chien-pao, it has allies and even if it can't sweep your team, it can still break holes easily. Lots of games comes down to a speed tie between two Pao users clicking sacred sword and hoping their pao hits first
tl;dr chien-pao is busted, don't have it in the meta regardless how much I enjoy bulky pao
For real though I feel like I'm not skilled enough to get reqs but I'm still going to put my opinion forwards
It is alright, but due to the fact that most counterplay requires tera to beat it if it has tera, then it is quite busted. Breloom and Scizor should be excellent checks, but it can ice shard to beat Breloom and tera to survive a bullet punch (or, y'know, switch out). To the people saying Paldean Tauros is a good check, no it is not it can be easily punished by switching out into Pult, Hatt, Garg, Gholdengo (last 2 is a bit sketch tho), and even then Chien-Pao can reveal a surprise tera flying tera blast and OHKO it
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Flying Chien-Pao Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tauros-Paldea-Fire: 230-272 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
(Well maybe you don't have that much hazards but still dealing 70% to a 'check' should not happen)
To the people saying Chien-Pao handles Gholdengo, uh no that's not how it works, Gholdengo is overrated and dies to half the meta, it's not immune to everything ok?
Chien-Pao does not deal with Dondozo at all since many of them run body press, so don't bring up that
Chien-Pao cannot check Garg without icicle crash flinch hax which is even more unhealthy, and should not be your primary way of dealing with garg
Remember that this isn't 1000 elo OU between 2 noobs, and switching is a thing, so Pao users can switch out of bad matchups and re-enter later, while many of its 'checks' can't re-enter much
Broken checks Broken is unhealthy and should not be how OU is played. You might as well unban Miraidon because it checks Dondozo if you insist on BcB
remember that you're not playing a 6v1 against chien-pao, it has allies and even if it can't sweep your team, it can still break holes easily. Lots of games comes down to a speed tie between two Pao users clicking sacred sword and hoping their pao hits first
tl;dr chien-pao is busted, don't have it in the meta regardless how much I enjoy bulky pao
Wasting a slot on protect , just to see what move Chien-Pao is going to use , speaks volumes about how broken it is . You can protect just to see that the pao was the SD set . Name one pokemon that does not take like 30-35% from CB Tera dark crunch except defensive Tusk (No i don't want to hear Tauros Paldea-Water/Fire ) . If you still named tauros paldea : You really want to run a max hp and def invested mon which prolly wont even see usage in OU if pao wasn't there . So lets say you predict a crunch and go to Tauros . First time , ok . Second time if you get predicted then this happens :
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tauros-Paldea-Fire: 95-112 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( after turn one crunch) (so much for a counter)
Knowing what move Pao is gonna make helps little when all of you mons loss like 1/3 rd of their total health when they switch in .
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You forgor intimidate
too bad it completely lacks longevity and can only switch in so many times against chien-pao, unless it runs a coverage move such as psychic fangs to snipe (both forms of) tauros as it switches in
- -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tauros-Paldea-Fire: 180-212 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- +1 252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tauros-Paldea-Fire/Water: 149-177 (42 - 50%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tauros-Paldea-Fire/Water: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
no one is running psychic fangs on pao, which move are u giving up to fit this?
do you mean SDing on the switch? both tauros-p ohko chien-pao, and tauros fire can still wisp even if pao teras defensively
even though i think your reasoning is wrong, i agree that tauros-p is a bad pokemon. it's bad not because it gets beaten by chien-pao (it doesn't), but because it doesn't really do anything the turn after it checks chien pao. do you double predicting them to switch out or do you sit there helplessly as they double to specs pult and grab a kill? i agree that the fact that people are seriously considering running tauros-p is possibly indicative of the fact that pao is unhealthy for the metagame.
that's just something chien-pao can tech over sacred sword to 2HKO them on the switch (and also hits toxapex and iron valiant FWIW). it just goes to show that even these supposed checks can get blown up by chien-pao if it's running the right moves. even sacred sword can become dangerous to tauros if it starts getting worn down, so it doesn't even need to run psychic fangs to beat them. it just can do so to rip a massive hole in the opponent's team and to turn the tide on a would-be "check"
yeah, if you SD on the switch then tauros-P can very easily just die to chien-pao if hazards are up since spikes really cuts into its longevity, and considering how omnipresent spikes are in this meta, it's very likely that tauros-P switches in with 25% of its HP gone, and chien-pao dealing 50% with tera dark crunch after an SD (even after intimidate has been used, mind you!) only serves to make it less reliable as an answer. even if hazards somehow aren't up (or if it's running HDB), it still gets chipped by chien-pao's teammates and will eventually open up for pao to come in and finish it off later
I'm not going to have time to try for reqs this go around, but it seems pretty overwhelmingly obvious that thing needs to be banned. The anti-ban side hasn't really brought any points forward other than "This otherwise RU mon is a great counter, usually, as long as it only has to counter it once" and "You can scout it out, just be willing to put someone in 2HKO range because there's very few realistic sets that won't get chunked too hard to be reliable from Banded Tera Dark Crunch" and who could forget "I hate stall and Garganacl burned down my house and stall is impossible to beat without Chien-Pao".
If the Tauros Bros are the best answer to Chien-Pao and people run them for that purpose even though they have very little use outside of that, that is a demonstration of the point that Chien-Pao is kinda shnasty. Chien-Pao is so splashable and widely useful as both the best stallbreaker and best offense sweeper that you're eating a much larger opportunity cost by running Tauros than the guy using Chien-Pao.
If the best way to beat a Band set is to let it use a move and then swap to a counter for that move, then you're accepting that Chien-Pao literally just finding a turn to come in on anything it hits hard enough to threaten and force out (Which is way more than anything it doesn't) is a tax on either a big chunk of someone's HP or a tax on a moveslot for Protect. Only three types resist Dark and none are immune to it, so the Chien-Pao user really can just put it in and mindlessly spam Crunch until you force them to stop. And no, Great Tusk is not a switch in, because if it decides to click Ice Spinner instead you just lost your Great Tusk
Stall is actually in a bad place in SV OU right now, and removing Chien-Pao will not magically invert that and make it dominant. Stall is a healthy playstyle that has to have a place even if you don't like fighting it. If Garg is too strong after Chien-Pao is gone, we can just get rid of Garg too. Suspect votes are not one-or-the-other arrangements.
If the Tauros Bros are the best answer to Chien-Pao and people run them for that purpose even though they have very little use outside of that, that is a demonstration of the point that Chien-Pao is kinda shnasty. Chien-Pao is so splashable and widely useful as both the best stallbreaker and best offense sweeper that you're eating a much larger opportunity cost by running Tauros than the guy using Chien-Pao.
If the best way to beat a Band set is to let it use a move and then swap to a counter for that move, then you're accepting that Chien-Pao literally just finding a turn to come in on anything it hits hard enough to threaten and force out (Which is way more than anything it doesn't) is a tax on either a big chunk of someone's HP or a tax on a moveslot for Protect. Only three types resist Dark and none are immune to it, so the Chien-Pao user really can just put it in and mindlessly spam Crunch until you force them to stop. And no, Great Tusk is not a switch in, because if it decides to click Ice Spinner instead you just lost your Great Tusk
Stall is actually in a bad place in SV OU right now, and removing Chien-Pao will not magically invert that and make it dominant. Stall is a healthy playstyle that has to have a place even if you don't like fighting it. If Garg is too strong after Chien-Pao is gone, we can just get rid of Garg too. Suspect votes are not one-or-the-other arrangements.
This. I might not like fighting stall, but it alongside other defensive teams are genuine playstyles. Stall may not become dominant when Chien-pao is gone, but it will become a little better.
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Would be if that was the only thing that you have to run to stop it priority is still an amazing option and stealth rocks are everywhere not to mention screens offense.
(also psychic fangs, which is equally situational but double still)
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