Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Munch

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Finchinator

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Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Chien-Pao!



Chien-Pao will be the subject of the ninth generation's second ever Overused suspect test, and the first Pokemon to be suspected after Terastallization was tested and remained (fully) legal. Prior to this suspect test, we have managed to ban a handful of Pokemon over three rounds of quickbans (Flutter Mane and Houndstone, Palafin and Iron Bundle, and Chi-Yu, Annihilape, and Cyclizar). Now that the metagame has settled, we can strengthen our focus to a tiering process driven predominantly by and for the community by conducting suspect tests! In response to recent metagame developments, including our second tiering survey, Chien-Pao has stood out as suspect worthy.

Chien-Pao is one of the strongest and fastest Pokemon in the metagame, giving it a pedigree for potency. From there, it does not disappoint. Sword of Ruin allows for Chien-Pao to handicap any foe defensively in a similar fashion to how Chi-Yu did specially defensively. While it is true that Chien-Pao lacks the same exact power level of its already-Uber counterpart, it still has an impressive level of damage output coupled with superb speed to function alongside strong tools. Speaking of these tools, let's discuss its arsenal. The Ice-Dark STAB combination hits a vast majority of Pokemon neutrally, if not super effectively. When proven insufficient, complimentary coverage move Sacred Sword and priority moves Ice Shard and Sucker Punch also become noteworthy attacking options. In addition, when forgoing a choice item, Chien-Pao frequently run Swords Dance, allowing for it to break past virtually every wall that lacks Unaware.

Stemming off of this, Chien-Pao tends to focus on two general variants: Choice Band and Swords Dance. The former functions primarily as a powerhouse breaker, exhibiting unmatched offensive presence. Be it through strong natural STABs or going a step further with Tera-Dark Crunch, Chien-Pao's Choice Band variant finds itself with very few reliable switch-ins as even the bulkiest of walls cannot hold up without resistances. As for Swords Dance sets, they can also function as breakers as they trade the standalone power for the ability to abuse both STABs without locking in, but they primarily aim to clean out teams after a boost. STAB priority can help dispatch of faster would-be revenge killers such as Dragapult while a +2 Chien-Pao becomes a menace to handle for anything defensively.

It is true that counterplay to Chien-Pao exists, and some of it is quite applicable in this metagame state. For example, Pokemon like Tauros-Paldea-Fire and Water, Kingambit, Quaquaval, Azumarill, and Tinkaton all resist both of its STABs, making them range from temporary checks to reliable counterplay depending on the circumstances. The Tauros forms in particular match-up nicely into Chien-Pao while the others are not as durable, but still can do the trick once or twice. Priority such as Mach Punch from Breloom or Bullet Punch from Scizor can do very well depending on circumstances while Normal type Extreme Speed from Dragonite may play depending on other factors, too. Other strategies such as utilizing your Terastallization to stop Chien-Pao can be used, too, with numerous Pokemon such as Dondozo going to a Fairy typing for Crunch or Great Tusk going to a Water typing for Ice attacks being common. Finally, entry hazards can cause longevity issues with Choice Band Chien-Pao while Unaware Dondozo should be able to manage any Swords Dance variant.

Going back to the topic of Terastallization, Chien-Pao is a phenomenal user of it with Tera Dark allowing Choice Band Crunch to hit unreasonably hard. It is true that this comes with a substantial opportunity cost as you cannot use other strategies involving Terastallization with other team members when doing this. However, the same can be said for the mention of potential counterplay existing due to walls using their Tera types in an effort to dwarf Chien-Pao, so this is a two-way-street. In a sense, Chien-Pao's presence offensively being so destructive forces the hand of many walls, which could be seen as a testament to its prowess despite also being a limiting factor towards immediate progress.

Overall, Chien-Pao is among the most powerful offensive options in OU. It has a restricted pool of potential checks and counters, but both offensive and defensive counterplay exist sparingly thanks to select revenge killing methods and a couple of walls that resist STABs. While Chien-Pao is beatable, many worry that it warps teambuilding and contributes towards the metagame becoming overly repetitive as team construction remains hamstrung by it, potentially suggesting that a ban could open up the metagame in an addition by subtraction sense. On the flip side, Chien-Pao is an awesome presence to fit that can function as a revenge killer, breaker, or sweeper that fits onto many teams of its own, which offers merit of its own to operating within the metagame. It will be interesting to see if our players find it to be overbearing enough to warrant a ban or if they find it to be healthy presence not worthy of a ban.


  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test!!! The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUZO. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUZO Finch.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The suspect being tested, Chien-Pao, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for roughly two weeks, lasting until February 10th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:


  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes retesting Chien-Pao vs other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • You are required to read this thread before posting.
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
    • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging Kris and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
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Hello OU,

I don't have a fancy short novel for you like I did for the tera suspect. Chien-pao is broken for reasons that are much more simple: It is both top tier speed control and a top tier breaker at once, and that has historically been a broken combo. Specifically, Chien-pao reminds me a lot of mega lucario: Both are ridiculously hard to wall, very fast, have multiple forms of priority, and are quite frail. Of course, Mega lucario had the added dimension of going physical or special with SD or Nasty Plot, while chien-pao's natural speed is a fair bit higher (135 vs 112), but you get the idea.

Answers to the SD sets like unaware dondozo can lose to choice band, and answers to choice band like baneful bunker toxapex+sturdy dark resist (usually physdef great tusk) can lose to SD sets. Priority like Breloom can be picked off by Ice Shard, Scizor will be killed by +2 sucker punch. Many scarfers also lose to its priority, only a few like scarf iron valiant can revenge kill chien pao reliably. Only a few pokemon like Tauros-Paldea-Blaze or Aqua can switch into chien-pao reliably.

The OP has already outlined much of what I have to say. It's not impossible to answer, but chien-pao is just too strong and too fast. I will be voting ban.
 
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1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Oh boy, I'm so angry that this is a suspect and not a quick ban, because I'm probably not gonna be able to get reqs :eeveehide:

Anyway, BAN
Pao has been broken since day 1, back when stuff like Iron Bundle and Flutter Mane were running around, you still could easily get destroyed by chien pao, thanks to its immense power due to his ability, good stabs and great attack stat, his speed is also pretty good for this meta

To create a Chien pao set you need Crunch, Icicle Crash, Sacred Sword and one of 2 priority moves in sucker punch or ice shard
then here comes the item
Band, HDB, Life Orb, Focus Sash, Chople Berry, Scarf
and then you add a tera
Ghost, Dark, Ice, Fighting

It functions exactly the same even when tera involved, because it's a simple mon, it deals too much damage. Worst part is, that due to how X of Ruin works, for the first time ever, Broken checks broken is NOT A MEME, and that makes it even more broken
 

Finchinator

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OU Leader
I plan on voting ban.

Chien-Pao provides a premium offensively that is both unmatched in the metagame and unreasonable to account for defensively.

In terms of the former, nothing rivals the sheer strength of Chien-Pao to begin with, but normally potent breakers either need ample opportunity or impressive speed. Chien-Pao can find both in this metagame. This allows for it to find openings to either set up an SD or spam Choice Band Crunch. From there, you need very specific measures to not lose lots of ground to Chien-Pao.

Pivoting to this point, Chien-Pao has a very small pool of checks and counters, making it hard to find appropriate measures to stop it. This forces you to incur a weakness or have very limited team construction possibilities as you have a slot dedicated to Chien-Pao checking that can only be one of a small handful of Pokemon like Tauros-Water or Fire.

You can argue for things like Tera Fairy Dondozo or Toxapex, but I think having to Tera your wall for the sake of a single interaction is a large gain as is and more of a testament to Pao’s innate strength and focal grasp on the metagame than it is a point against it. The opportunity cost there is massive and it’s a two way street as Pao can always pivot our and minimize the use of your Tera altogether.

All in all, Chien-Pao is far too strong for this metagame and deserves to be banned.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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I think Chien-Pao is broken. *shocker*


I spoke to multiple people about what they think of Pao (is not worthy of a ban or if it is). So to put some things in perspective Chien-Pao is pretty much Weavile (Gen 8) on steroids. Weavile was extremely dominant last generation because of its pure power and ability to abuse Life Orb Swords Dance sets on a meta which had no unaware mons. Pao has 2 strong STAB moves Crunch + Icicle Spear, when you Tera Dark or (more uncommon) Ice, you give huge boosts to something that already has 120 Base Attack + its ability of Sword of Ruin. It pretty much runs through a majority of the metagame. Some interesting calcs of what I think is the more problematic set (Choice Band) [Which is what I think puts Pao over the top]:

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 238-280 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Tera Fairy Garganacl: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tauros-Paldea-Fire: 85-100 (24 - 28.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 206-244 (58.1 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The one I want to point out is what people constantly bring up, which is Tauros-Paldea-Blaze, people define it as a ‘Good’ counter to Chien-Pao but as you see through the calcs, it takes anywhere from 24-28% with a Choice Banded Crunch [Tera Dark enabled]. If it’s not running boots then you can abuse it via entry hazards. I do agree in this sentiment that Tauros-Paldea-Blaze handles and cripples Pao (Via Wisp) exceptionally well but to fit it in a team can be a little bit restricting since I think there are better physical walls to use in the meta that have more value in means of recovery versus Lefties + Protect.

I feel when you combine the sheer strength with the ability to hit 405 speed with a Jolly nature, it is a little too much to plan for. Especially when you take in account that it has 2 priority moves like Ice Shard + Sucker Punch. I’m leaning to vote towards a ban because of the whole argument of how you have to plan for its sheer strength, fantastic speed tier, and priority moves
 
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If you ask me, Chien-Pao is simply way too fast and strong for the metagame to handle; Sword of Ruin makes it so almost nothing can reliably switch in and its speed means that even most offensive mons can't reliably match up against it either. This means that teams have to load up on multiple checks to Chien-Pao otherwise it'll run them over easily, and having to dedicate what may or may not be an otherwise meager Tera Type (depending on the mon, of course) to things that may not check it doesn't help matters and should speak to how overbearing and restrictive it is on teambuilding. Terastallizing also works both ways--it can make Chien-Pao more unwallable, allowing it to potentially break through even the mons that are used to check it, but due to how specific said checks are, a defensive Tera can easily ruin the strategy a player has to beat it and it can effortlessly run away with the game from then on.

All these qualities combined means that even mons that seem like good checks on paper like Azumarill, Tinkaton, and Quaquaval, in addition to defensive mons like Toxapex and Dondozo, can't actually reliably check Chien-Pao more than once or twice, which is usually not enough since at that point, it has likely worn them down significantly and/or KO'd a sizable portion of their teammates. Really, the only mons that can usually keep Chien-Pao in place reliably are Fire and Water Tauros. While they are admittedly good checks, history shows that having only one mon (technically two but still all the same) be the gatekeeper against an otherwise broken threat does not make the thing they're checking any less of an unhealthy presence. As such, I will be voting to ban Chien-Pao.
 
probably not making reqs because i'm not naturally good enough at ou to maintain that gxe and i don't have the time or motivation to actually get that good right now, but if i did, i'd be voting to ban. part of the reason i'm not super motivated to get reqs is because chien-pao is so busted that the outcome of this suspect is already virtually guaranteed whether i get reqs or not. this isn't like tera where the playerbase is split to a significant degree, almost everyone can agree that chien-pao needs to go. it has a handful of """"checks"""" that either only check one set at a time or lose to def drops from crunch and that's it.

also, ice spice? really? "by-tor and the snow dog" is right there
 

3d

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ill be voting no ban on chien pao.

i get why it is being suspected being considered by most to be the #1 mon in the tier right now and its incredible SPL winrate. but we cannot simply ban whatever carves out a place as the #1 mon in the meta every couple weeks. it really hasn't been that much time since chien pao took over as the best mon in the tier and i don't think we gave the meta enough time to develop and adapt to justify a ban.

it seems like the main complaint about chien pao is its cb tera set so lets talk about that. for starters there's an opportunity cost of needing to tera it while nontera cb pao is still a good mon it is definitely not banworthy. think about how you give up the potential to sweep with your tera normal espeed dnite or have to sack a mon vs floatzel because you can no longer tera water your great tusk. needing tera to push you over the edge says more about tera than the mon itself. just look at all of the previously banned mons: chiyu, cyclizar, ape, houndstone, flutter mane, palafin, and iron bundle were all insane even without needing to tera.

at that point we need to ask ourselves if we want to ban several key abusers or revisit tera. considering how close the vote was last time and home coming soon ithink it would be best to keep chien pao in the tier both because of its limitations (rocks weakness, poor spdef, really wanting that tera to murk teams, having to deal with tera mindgames from mons like skele and tusk) and because its a terrible precedent to set by banning the best mon in the tier every time one clearly emerges, especially when that mon is only considered broken because of tera.

to wrap it up, in the wise words of aim...
1675111602648.png
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Moderator
ill be voting no ban on chien pao.

i get why it is being suspected being considered by most to be the #1 mon in the tier right now and its incredible SPL winrate. but we cannot simply ban whatever carves out a place as the #1 mon in the meta every couple weeks. it really hasn't been that much time since chien pao took over as the best mon in the tier and i don't think we gave the meta enough time to develop and adapt to justify a ban.

it seems like the main complaint about chien pao is its cb tera set so lets talk about that. for starters there's an opportunity cost of needing to tera it while nontera cb pao is still a good mon it is definitely not banworthy. think about how you give up the potential to sweep with your tera normal espeed dnite or have to sack a mon vs floatzel because you can no longer tera water your great tusk. needing tera to push you over the edge says more about tera than the mon itself. just look at all of the previously banned mons: chiyu, cyclizar, ape, houndstone, flutter mane, palafin, and iron bundle were all insane even without needing to tera.

at that point we need to ask ourselves if we want to ban several key abusers or revisit tera. considering how close the vote was last time and home coming soon ithink it would be best to keep chien pao in the tier both because of its limitations (rocks weakness, poor spdef, really wanting that tera to murk teams, having to deal with tera mindgames from mons like skele and tusk) and because its a terrible precedent to set by banning the best mon in the tier every time one clearly emerges, especially when that mon is only considered broken because of tera.

to wrap it up, in the wise words of aim...
View attachment 488079
I totally understand why you would hesitate to ban a mon when tera is a huge factor as to why the mon is broken, but the community has already decided to keep tera. We were nowhere close to a full ban, and do you think chien pao's performance would be any worse if we could see its tera via team preview?

"Damn the pao is tera dark this radically changes my gameplan" -Nobody

Yall made your bed now go lie in it and ban every tera abuser while keeping tera. Until tera is revisited, that's the mindset that the community decided on. Yes I'm still salty.
 

Taka

coastin' like crazy
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PUPL Champion
ill be voting no ban on chien pao.

i get why it is being suspected being considered by most to be the #1 mon in the tier right now and its incredible SPL winrate. but we cannot simply ban whatever carves out a place as the #1 mon in the meta every couple weeks. it really hasn't been that much time since chien pao took over as the best mon in the tier and i don't think we gave the meta enough time to develop and adapt to justify a ban.

it seems like the main complaint about chien pao is its cb tera set so lets talk about that. for starters there's an opportunity cost of needing to tera it while nontera cb pao is still a good mon it is definitely not banworthy. think about how you give up the potential to sweep with your tera normal espeed dnite or have to sack a mon vs floatzel because you can no longer tera water your great tusk. needing tera to push you over the edge says more about tera than the mon itself. just look at all of the previously banned mons: chiyu, cyclizar, ape, houndstone, flutter mane, palafin, and iron bundle were all insane even without needing to tera.

at that point we need to ask ourselves if we want to ban several key abusers or revisit tera. considering how close the vote was last time and home coming soon ithink it would be best to keep chien pao in the tier both because of its limitations (rocks weakness, poor spdef, really wanting that tera to murk teams, having to deal with tera mindgames from mons like skele and tusk) and because its a terrible precedent to set by banning the best mon in the tier every time one clearly emerges, especially when that mon is only considered broken because of tera.

to wrap it up, in the wise words of aim...
View attachment 488079
I agree with your reasoning on the band set, and Tera dark really pushes that shit over the edge. The issue is having to be able to take on both banded and sd sets. Almost everything that takes on CB Chien Pao can't handle SD Chien Pao, and vice versa. We're also seeing new Tera types come into play such as Fire and Ghost, both of which completely flip certain matchups. Ultimately, since we just decided to remove Tera, we have to eliminate the most broken abusers of it. Furthermore, I don't think its fair to consider Chien Pao reliant on Tera. Throughout the course of a game, it 100% can beat its checks with the use of Tera, but can do that same thing with some hazards, some smart pivoting, use of SD, etc. Chien Pao's ability to dominate a field unless you bring Tauros or use your Tera on it (which will be scouted for a lot more by good players) really restricts both teambuilding and play in practice.
 
Just started my reqs run (first ever try, wish me luck!) and I'm off to a 14-3 start using (abusing?) a hazard stack Chien-Pao team.

I will definitely be voting ban if I make it. The thing is just comically over-powered. Things that conventionally check it, no longer check it after SR + 1 layer of Spikes. It only needs minimal support in terms of slow u-turning to get free switch-ins and immediately eliminate threats or force switches to build up hazard damage and prevent its "checks" from checking it again. It's so difficult for balance and/or stall teams to handle it, and HO (specifically HO Rain) is the only archetype that feels like it gets good matchups against Chien-Pao. I think the tier would be healthier without it.
 

3d

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I totally understand why you would hesitate to ban a mon when tera is a huge factor as to why the mon is broken, but the community has already decided to keep tera. We were nowhere close to a full ban, and do you think chien pao's performance would be any worse if we could see its tera via team preview?

"Damn the pao is tera dark this radically changes my gameplan" -Nobody

Yall made your bed now go lie in it and ban every tera abuser while keeping tera. Until tera is revisited, that's the mindset that the community decided on. Yes I'm still salty.
you can always suspect things again they aren't ever final look at melmetal last gen. also ur assuming that people will vote for the same restriction for a different metagame and aren't even entertaining the possibility of new restrictions that the council could entertain. furthermore you're completely disregarding how metagames naturally shift in assuming that a mon will run one type for the rest of the gen if it stays when nothing could be further from the truth as we've seen throughout the gen so far. this is what im talking about where we refuse to entertain meta development and act like the top tier mon on the rise is destined to keep going. again fluctuations in what dominates the tier at a current time are entirely normal and shouldn't be what results in a ban.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Moderator
you can always suspect things again they aren't ever final look at melmetal last gen. also ur assuming that people will vote for the same restriction for a different metagame and aren't even entertaining the possibility of new restrictions that the council could entertain. furthermore you're completely disregarding how metagames naturally shift in assuming that a mon will run one type for the rest of the gen if it stays when nothing could be further from the truth as we've seen throughout the gen so far. this is what im talking about where we refuse to entertain meta development and act like the top tier mon on the rise is destined to keep going. again fluctuations in what dominates the tier at a current time are entirely normal and shouldn't be what results in a ban.
Yes metagames always develop, is that really an excuse to allow broken mons to continue running rampant? In the results of the most recent metagame survey, Chien-Pao received a score of 4.105/5 from the Qualified userbase. As a reminder, this was on a scale from 1-5 where 1 was No tiering action needed and 5 is I would vote to ban. I don't know if I could justify waiting a month and hoping people adapt to chien pao when so many people want tiering action so strongly.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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you can always suspect things again they aren't ever final look at melmetal last gen. also ur assuming that people will vote for the same restriction for a different metagame and aren't even entertaining the possibility of new restrictions that the council could entertain. furthermore you're completely disregarding how metagames naturally shift in assuming that a mon will run one type for the rest of the gen if it stays when nothing could be further from the truth as we've seen throughout the gen so far. this is what im talking about where we refuse to entertain meta development and act like the top tier mon on the rise is destined to keep going. again fluctuations in what dominates the tier at a current time are entirely normal and shouldn't be what results in a ban.
I feel like the point Srn is making is that we really have no idea when Tera is going to be revisited. It could be not long after we get a bunch of mons back from Pokemon Home, or it could very well be an entire year. I do genuinely think Tera will be revisited in the future, but is it really practical to just hold off on suspecting "tera broken" Pokémon until that time comes? And even if that time does come, what if it doesn't get banned/restricted enough to balance out Pokemon that were broken with Tera? That would mean we did all that waiting for essentially zero payoff.

I do think there is a good argument to be made that many Pokemon down the line might end up being banned mostly because of the existence of Tera, but if we adopt this mindset that we should refrain from any major tiering action until the day comes that Tera MAYBE gets banned or limited, we're just going to be stuck in the same, imbalanced meta for months to come. And yes, Pokemon can be revisted in the future, as you mentioned. So with that logic, who's to say we cant revisit a bunch of these same Pokemon if Tera ever gets banned? The meta shifted enough in Gen 8 for Melmetal to come back after multiple suspects despite being banned originally, but we didn't just keep it unbanned the entire time in the hopes that some day it might be manageable.
 
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Finchinator

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at that point we need to ask ourselves if we want to ban several key abusers or revisit tera. considering how close the vote was last time and home coming soon ithink it would be best to keep chien pao in the tier
You can vote for whatever reason you’d like, but I just want to point out that this is entirely moot. A lot of things we ban now will be up for reintroduction to the tier upon the release of Home depending on circumstances (similar to last generation); we are wholly focused on the current metagame. Tera may be reevaluated then as well, but that could be with some of the new and previously banned Pokemon.

The point of any suspect is for the sake of the current metagame. Future implications will be addressed in the future. Basically: If you seem something to be broken with Tera, it’s broken now as Tera is allowed. Of course, everyone is entitled to vote on whatever merits they would like and gauge Chien-Pao how they would like regardless of this.
because its a terrible precedent to set by banning the best mon in the tier every time one clearly emerges, especially when that mon is only considered broken because of tera.
also tusk is def the best mon in the tier rn and banning this wouldn’t set any negative precedent regardless as each suspect is case-by-case. This feels a tad shortsighted.
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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When dealing w/ mons like Chien-Pao you typically have two options; a) check it defensively with fat resists or b) run offensive enough teams so that the mon in question doesn't get enough value. You can't do either of these against Pao; there are no Dark resists that can handle it long term w/I instantly dropping to Ice Spinner or Sacred Sword save for the Tauroses, and there aren't many offensive checks at all; it resists a lot of common priority (Ice Shard and Sucker from Pao itself, Sucker from Gambit or Meow), OHKOes other priority users before they can hit it (Loom) and OHKOs the only naturally faster mon in Pult with either of its priority moves. There aren't many good scarfers in this tier to begin with, too, and a lot of them are weak to priority from Chien-Pao anyway (meow, ghold). Essentially you're restricted to either Scizor's Bullet Punch (bounces off Dark Tera anyway), using stuff like Tauros, or sacking to it and then abusing it with stuff that handles the STABs like Azu, Quaquaval, or Valiant.

I don't think this is enough counterplay, and I do believe this is an easy ban vote. The game is essentially always in the favour of the Chien-Pao user; this is usually not the sign of a healthy metagame. Dearth of counterplay on both ends of the offensive/defensive spectrum makes it p clear to me that Chien-Pao should go.
 

1LDK

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Honestly, even if tera is not in the picture, Chien Pao will be broken because he doesn't need tera, its a cool trick to bait the already few counters he has, but even if you are not counting tera, he has virtually 150 AtK thanks to his ability, and he has OTHER ways to break his counters without tera, such as Sticky Webs team, who make the SD Set way more insane because you're not out speeding with anything, not even scarfers, it can run Recover, while its a meme at first, it helps you to stay alive just a little bit more to break just more havoc, since its presence is so alarming on the builder, you can even have natural way to counter the few counters

:Dondozo:? Let's see if he can ignore the max roll bullet seed from :Breloom: or really any special attack
:Tauros-Paldea-Blaze:? Oh boy, I hope you can surf your way out of this one
:Azumarill:? Wow, there little fella, let me just run in circles around you and then just smack you hard with anything
:Scizor:? Flutter Mane is calling, she wants to use his dead body as S´more dip

I can go and on, and I'm not really overstretching, there is no world where chien pao is balanced, and if you think it does have some potential checks and counters, you better hurry and find them because nobody is seeing this "counters"
 
Honestly, even if tera is not in the picture, Chien Pao will be broken because he doesn't need tera, its a cool trick to bait the already few counters he has, but even if you are not counting tera, he has virtually 150 AtK thanks to his ability, and he has OTHER ways to break his counters without tera, such as Sticky Webs team, who make the SD Set way more insane because you're not out speeding with anything, not even scarfers, it can run Recover, while its a meme at first, it helps you to stay alive just a little bit more to break just more havoc, since its presence is so alarming on the builder, you can even have natural way to counter the few counters

:Dondozo:? Let's see if he can ignore the max roll bullet seed from :Breloom: or really any special attack
:Tauros-Paldea-Blaze:? Oh boy, I hope you can surf your way out of this one
:Azumarill:? Wow, there little fella, let me just run in circles around you and then just smack you hard with anything
:Scizor:? Flutter Mane is calling, she wants to use his dead body as S´more dip

I can go and on, and I'm not really overstretching, there is no world where chien pao is balanced, and if you think it does have some potential checks and counters, you better hurry and find them because nobody is seeing this "counters"
This is pretty much correct. I honestly think that the Tera suspect should have taken place after everything that was broken without Tera was gone, as discourse on the metagame discussion thread has been based around two things that some people consider broken largely because of tera (Garg + espathra), but Chien-Pao is one of those things that shouldn't stay with or without tera. There's not much that can reliably take on both SD and CB variants of Pao, and, as you said, those checks can easily be worn down by hazards and/or offensive pressure put on them by Pao's teammates. I'd be surprised if this vote is anywhere near as close as the Tera vote was.
 
Leaning towards no ban right now. I understand the pro-ban side's arguments, and while I agree that Chien-Pao is very strong and probably overcentralizing, I don't find it particularly annoying to face. In fact, I'd rather see Chien-Pao on the enemy team than a bunch of other mons. Unlike Chi-Yu, there's a wide variety of counterplay available to it, and it's pretty easy to build a team that includes at least one form of counterplay to Chien-Pao. Tera in particular makes it pretty easy to lure Chien-Pao, and the mere possibility that something like a Gholdengo could turn into a Fighting-type can severely limit its use.

Finally, the meta is in a pretty decent state right now, so I don't feel like more bans are necessary per se. In my opinion, every time smogon did an unnecessary ban (*cough* Hoopa-Unbound *cough*), the meta got significantly worse as a result of it. I might change my mind when I start grinding for reqs, but right now I'm not feeling it.
 
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