np: ORAS UU Stage 7 - Turn It Out

[Schpoonman]

Baton Pass beats Pursuit. If the Pokemon using Pursuit is faster, it will still inflict damage, but only 40 BP. If the Pokemon using Baton Pass switches, the Pursuit user hits the switch-in, again for 40 BP.

 

[ict]

im gonna waste my 300th post on saying:
conkeldurr is awful dont use that pokemon guys, thanks

 

[DaRizzleTheMan]

Baton Pass beats Pursuit. If the Pokemon using Pursuit is faster, it will still inflict damage, but only 40 BP. If the Pokemon using Baton Pass switches, the Pursuit user hits the switch-in, again for 40 BP.

oooh haha sorry I'm not familiar with baton pass's mechanics but I'll definitely put this information to use in the future, sorry for my mistake haha

 

[Highways]

Celebi @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Earth Power / Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic
- Giga Drain / Leaf Storm
​

This is probably one of the best Offensive Celebi Sets in the UU Metagame. It pressures basically everything that is weak to it lol. Suicune is 2HKOed by Giga Drain or OHKOed by Leaf Storm, since Suicune can't touch Celebi. Psychic OHKOes Fighting- and Poison-Types. Earth Power 2HKOes Steel-Types such as Cobalion, and OHKOes Banded Entei after Stealth Rock, since Dazzling Gleam hits Dark- and Dragon-Types (rip Hydra). Recover is a mandatory move on this set, since Celebi is very frail with Life Orb.

 

[ict]

Uhm this set is kind of outclassed by Shaymin, js. While Psychic might be useful because of stab, and Recover for a good 1 turn recovery move I think Shaymin performs this role better tbh. The main reason of this set is to be an offensive grass type which Shaymin just does better as it has a way better spammable move 'Seed Flare' lol, Giga Drain is piss weak and Leaf Storm fears the -2 drop whereas you lose basically nothing by clicking Seed Flare, they also get the same coverage w/ Earth Power, Dazzling Gleam and Psychic (stab on Celebi, still pretty useful on Shaymin) so I dont really see a reason to run offensive Celebi without Nasty Plot over Shaymin oo. Celebi gains two more weaknesses as well which makes it more vulnerable offensively, especially not being weak to Pursuit just gives Shaymin the edge over Celebi here and you don't wanna afford to get pursuited when you don't run any bulk. So yeah
don't run offensive Celebi w/o Rocks/Scarf/Nasty Plot or even SD.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

I lurk a lot these days and I'm tryna fix that so I figured I'd post here with my thoughts on Conkeldurr...A big topic of scholarly debate amongst individuals is which of Conkeldurr's abilities is best on it, out of Guts, Sheer Force, and Iron Fist. The general consensus I've seen is that Sheer Force is definitely the go-to set in UU, with Guts being used on occasion and Iron Fist heavily advised against. I agree with this for the most part, but honestly each ability has its own perks and I think people should try to explore each one a bit. Like yeah generally 9/10 times I'm gonna slap Sheer Force Conkeldurr on a team but there's shortcomings it has compared to Guts and even Iron Fist. And I know a lot of this is really obvious but putting it all out on paper can present an argument for and against each ability. Like, to list my observations:

Sheer Force
Pros:

• Most consistent boost power boost; Guts requires being statused, Iron Fist is notably weaker
• No extra HP loss per turn when using boosted moves, encouraging use of Life Orb
• Achieves key 2HKOes, most notably vs. Suicune (Thunder Punch), can OHKO Bold Florges/Sylveon (Poison Jab)

Cons:

• Boosts only a handful of moves, some of which are niche (Elemental punches, Poison Jab, Force Palm, Rock Slide)

Guts
Pros:

• Highest power boost of all Conkeldurr's abilities
• Applies to all of Conkeldurr's attacks
• Allows Conkeldurr to combat status users and discourage bulky Water-types from spamming Scald

Cons:

• Unless paralyzed, Conkeldurr dies slowly each turn
• The above discourages one from using Guts + Life Orb, as it kills Conkeldurr's longevity, thus making it far weaker (arguably you can use Choice Band though)
  
• Requires being statused first to deal significant damage
• Outclassed by Heracross barring access to Mach Punch and Poison Jab

Iron Fist
Pros:

• Gives Conkeldurr the strongest possible Fighting-type STAB (Iron Fist Hammer Arm, 120 BP) while boosting Drain/Mach Punch
• Still boosts elemental punches, on top of Fighting STABs

Cons:

• Weakest boost of all three abilities
  
• Loss in power of elemental punches compared to Sheer Force is quite noticeable
• Running Life Orb kills longevity unlike with Sheer Force, and being statused (especially burned) cripples Conkeldurr badly

Like I said I know most of this is common knowledge but there's still applications where one ability may shine over another. For instance, Life Orb on an Iron Fist set is highly questionable and is arguably outclassed by Sheer Force. But if one opts to use a Choice Band set, Conkeldurr can pull off crap like this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 223-264 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Beedrill: 171-202 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Hammer Arm vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 242-285 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's at least making prediction for Conkeldurr a bit easier without having to lock into a weak coverage move. Iron Fist-boosted Mach Punch puts a huge whooping on neutral threats, too:

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 156-184 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 300-354 (92.3 - 108.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (No other sets will OHKO Hydreigon with mach Punch, so this is pretty notable in my opinion)
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 136-162 (43.7 - 52%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Beedrill: 69-81 (25.4 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (This isn't huge, but for a 4x resist you're stripping away 1/4 of Beedrill's HP. With Rocks, Beedrill is already half-dead.)

All in all I guess I'm saying let's not dismiss the viability of Conkeldurr's other abilities! I feel there's some unexplored potential in this mon, especially in Iron Fist, however outclassed by Sheer Force it might seemingly be.

 

[Schpoonman]

I've been procrastinating building a team with SubPunch Conk. Sylveon dropping at the same time is unfortunate and you're basically always forced out, but Iron Fist Focus Punch hits just as hard as CB Hammer Arm.

 

[teal6]

Zapdos leaving has just been so good for like every Grass type. Shaymin, Sceptile (Mega and non-Mega) and Chesnaught are all pretty great right now and no longer have to think about running Ice/Rock coverage/Toxic to try and clip Zapdos anymore. Celebi came at just the right time lol.

I come here to bring awareness about a Grass type that probably would have been terrible in the Zapdos meta and that has been putting in insane amounts of work on a team that I built recently.

Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 88 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Glare
- Taunt
- Synthesis

Servine has the roles of utility mon, Water check, stallbreaker and sweeper all into one Pokemon. While 60/75/75 bulk may not seem like much, the Eviolite gives it surprising bulk, allowing it to tank Ice Beams from some Water-types and strong hits from various mons in the tier. Its access to Glare is probably its most defining feature, allowing it to bait out fast threats such as Infernape, Mega Sceptile, Mega Aero, Mega Beedrill, Crobat, etc. and cripple them for the rest of the game if they are without a cleric. Its ability to deny turns is also really helpful, as it allows Servine to stall a bit with Synthesis until full paralysis activates.

Access to Taunt and recovery obviously give it some good stallbreaking potential beating out things like Florges, Mega Aggron, Gligar, Forretress and Umbreon one on one usually. The matchup against Blissey is pretty doable with this set too. And yes, this thing can sweep in spite of that low SpA, as the high BP of Leaf Storm, STAB and Contrary make up for it. Servine just needs to be careful around Knock Offs, so it needs to play carefully around Krook, Crawdaunt and Knock Off Mandibuzz.

Celebi is probably the closest competitor to this set avaiable, but it can't stallbreak anywhere near as well as this set can, nor is it as effective at sweeping with Nasty Plot/Calm Mind.

Here are a couple replays I got today showing how it functions.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-374862083 - Servine easily takes a Crunch from the LO-less Feraligatr, then uses Glare and Synthesis to stall out Mega Sharpedo's Ice Beams even after being weakened by Gatr. It's then able to tank an Outrage and get rid of the Lum Berry on Mence, which proved helpful later.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-374856207 - Servine uses Sticky Web to its advantage a bit, prevents Whimsicott and Sigilyph from setting up, and acts as an emergency check to the Cobalion
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-374853726 - Servine makes Meggron less threatening by paralyzing it, severely weakens Krook, and still puts in work after Eviolite is knocked off, paralyzing Nape, destroying Florges after dodging a Fire Blast from Nape, then pretty much winning the game after that
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-374844908 - Servine does lose its Evilolite the first turn it comes in, but it gets a game-changing Glare against Mega Sceptile and prevents Defog from Mandibuzz once

I'd encourage giving Servine a try. It's really fun to use and a surprisingly good bulky Grass type.

nah

 

[Highways]

Who is Servine when you have Shaymin???

 

[Aquadext]

Even with that heavy investment in bulk servine isn't that fat, and is going to be even less bulky when its eviolite gets knocked off, it has a pretty bad defensive typing and no good way of recovering hp (no lefties and 8 pp synthesis which is mediocre for "breaking stall"). By the way I don't see how it breaks stall, sure taunt glare is a cool combo but leaf storm only has 8 pp and isn't very accurate, so servine is prone to being pp stalled.

+6 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%)

 

[Thisbemyalt]

You literally tried to bring hype to mon that is barely viable in PU ofc no one was gonna take it seriously

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

Servine's main role is defensive. Shaymin's bulk is a far cry from Servine's without investment and even if it were to run a defensive set, its bulk would be about the same as Servine's and it would still lack what makes Servine so potent, being Glare and the ability to sweep. Taunt is also pretty significant. Shaymin obviously has more immediate power, but Servine covers a completely different niche. If I came in here with a max SpA + Spe set of some sort, then of course that would be outclassed by Shaymin and it would be garbage.

Of course 95% of people don't give a shit though lol. Oh well.

Celebi, even with it's astronomical amount of weaknesses, can run a defensive set better than Servine, since it has reliable recovery that doesn't get neutered depending on weather (which I know doesn't matter too much, but still counts for something) and has a similar supportive move pool, barring Taunt. Servine also relies way too much on the Eviolite to be bulky, and with one Knock Off, loses all of that bulk.

I'm all for seeing if NFE mons can get some high tier usage, but Servine doesn't have a great niche here, especially since Celebi dropped down here.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Hey guys, remember when this joke was made right after we banned Serperior? Good times.

Meanwhile, just about any other bulky grass type already does the job as well/better.

But I guess it has free Paralysis, even vs Ground types, so must be good.

Also those replays are terrible.

 

[The Yellow Magic]

I have waited a while to make this post, but I think it's time we suspect something and this will be very controversial. I say we suspect Thunder Wave. Thunder wave is a move that is uncompetitive in my opinion. And not in the face that I believe it should be banned but rather because I believe it should have a clause implemented on to it, much like the sleep clause that stops spore and other moves from being ridiculously overpowered. Mons like Clefable have single handily become the rulers of their tiers due to this one move and it literally allows them to beat its checks. I can also confidently say it helps out numerous other mons like Celebi, It is simply uncompetitive due to it being based off of complete luck. However, it can stop sweeps and faster mons straight in their tracks. I would like to show this simply with Bissey and Cresselia, which turns rather passive walls into actual threats that can wreak havoc on teams, which is another upside. This is my main reason for wanting this suspect.

 

[57west]

I have waited a while to make this post, but I think it's time we suspect something and this will be very controversial. I say we suspect Thunder Wave. Thunder wave is a move that is uncompetitive in my opinion. And not in the face that I believe it should be banned but rather because I believe it should have a clause implemented on to it, much like the sleep clause that stops spore and other moves from being ridiculously overpowered. Mons like Clefable have single handily become the rulers of their tiers due to this one move and it literally allows them to beat its checks. I can also confidently say it helps out numerous other mons like Celebi, It is simply uncompetitive due to it being based off of complete luck. However, it can stop sweeps and faster mons straight in their tracks. I would like to show this simply with Bissey and Cresselia, which turns rather passive walls into actual threats that can wreak havoc on teams, which is another upside. This is my main reason for wanting this suspect.

i don't think thats a bad idea but this isn't the right place to discuss that

 

[Thisbemyalt]

I promise you we will not suspect thunder wave lol we already tried this meme with scald and it went nowhere so please lets just drop this

 

[skies]

I promise you we will not suspect thunder wave lol we already tried this meme with scald and it went nowhere so please lets just drop this

hi i was lurking.

this totally isnt fair at all. everything deserved a discussion and considering that post received many likes, it is clear that others agree as well. his post provided logical standpoints to support banning thunder wave and this post does not disprove it.

i just dont think it's right to shut down a discussion that quickly instead of actually discussing it when the discussion at hand is one that deserves discussion.

that's all! no standpoint on thunder wave and i dont even play uu. carry on~

 

[Thisbemyalt]

I get wanting to have an open discussion on serious movements towards suspects but as it is UU is pretty conservative on suspects and as I mentioned we went down this route already with scald, which is more uncompetitive imo, and it just ended up being a huge waste of time. I just can't see Hikari or Sam actually suspecting the move, especially when the person motioning for it made what I assume is an alt to either meme or hide who they are.

 

[Malin]

hi i was lurking.

this totally isnt fair at all. everything deserved a discussion and considering that post received many likes, it is clear that others agree as well. his post provided logical standpoints to support banning thunder wave and this post does not disprove it.

i just dont think it's right to shut down a discussion that quickly instead of actually discussing it when the discussion at hand is one that deserves discussion.

that's all! no standpoint on thunder wave and i dont even play uu. carry on~

hi! i dont think ppl liked that post over the "logical standpoints" that he provided, which is actually non existent besides a Clefable reference, irrelevant since its an OU mon and we are discussing UU. what I believe instead is that ppl liked his post because he is memeing, using references as the infamous Yellow Magic and perhaps the fact that UU usually don't run suspects.

about Thunder Wave itself, better bring a Ground or Electric type to your team! works like a charm.

hope I was helpful, bye!

 

[Highways]

Yes, I agree with Thisbemyalt, both Hikari and Sam wouldn't suspect TW. Anyway, when we need to suspect any Pokémon, we need to see it's variety of both Counters and Checks, but Thunder Wave hasn't Counters and Checks, but it has some Pokémon that can switch-in. The Tier has a lot of viable Ground-Types, like Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Swampert(-Mega), Mamoswine(this is broken imo) and Krookodile. The Tier has Heliolisk, Rotom-Mow and Rotom-Heat as viable Electric-Types that are immune. Natural Cure Pokémon can be used too, like Celebi, Roserade or Blissey. We have Heal Bell and Aromatherapy users, just like Blissey, Celebi, Roserade, Diancie, Umbreon and Florges. We have Magic Bounce users too, Espeon and Absol-Mega. Finally, we have Taunt Users, these Pokémon are Sableye, Hydreigon, Cobalion, Virizion, Whimsicott, Crobat and Krookodile. So, we have more or less 22 Pokémon that can avoid Thunder Wave, now let's see who use TW: Blissey, Porygon2, Cresselia, Slowking, Aggron-Mega and Alakazam. Do you guys really need to ban a move that is used by 6 Pokémon if you can avoid it by simply using these 22 that I mentioned? And, that's not like the Chatter suspect in PU, nope, Chatter had 0 switches, TW has a lot.

 

[dodmen]

Enough about a Thunder Wave suspect please, definitely not realistic.

Any sets you guys have been using that have fallen in usage over the past few months/years but are still effective? I've been using Life Orb Mienshao recently and although I almost never see it, it's probably my favorite Fighting-type to use right now besides Cobalion. I'm using a set of High Jump Kick / U-turn / Poison Jab / Knock Off (used to run Stone Edge > Knock Off before Zapdos rose). It's strong enough to 2HKO bulky stuff like Milotic and Suicune easily after SR while its coverage deals with a lot of common Fighting checks well: for example, Knock Off + U-turn can kill Reuniclus ad Slowking while it can do around 70% to Cresselia and Sableye. Being able to get rid of Florges and Sylveon easily is great too (HJK + Poison Jab and SR), but most importantly it does all this while outspeeding the majority of the tier. For such a fast Pokemon it's a hell of a lot stronger than stuff like Cobalion and Infernape. Scarf Mienshao is enormously threatening to offense in its own way, but LO Mienshao puts the pressure on teams that use the Fairies and Psychic types as their Fighting checks, and it really helps DD/Scarf Salamence, Scarf Hydreigon, and others like this clean up.

Another one is Hone Claws Aerodactyl. Most of the Aerodactyl I see now use Pursuit, which is obviously amazing for its ability to check such a wide range of offense threats. But Hone Claws destroys (and even sets up on, in some cases) soft checks that people think make them safe from Aero, like Cresselia and Sylveon. It also really enjoys the fact that people are using Roar > Sleep Talk on Suicune and that some offensive teams rely on Shuca Cobalion or even Krookodile. It sets up extremely easily against balance, and even against some offensive teams.

Obviously these are both standard sets, but I haven't seen them being used very much in favor of other Fighting types for Mienshao and other sets for Aero. Definitely give these two a try if you haven't used them recently.

Any other sets like these that you guys have been having fun with?

 

[Ununhexium]

I too have tried LO mienshao and it's really fun to use if you try like an HP Ice variant for those fatmence and Gligar out there if you already have decent fairy checks

 

[DiscoDucky]

Actually, I have.

I've been primarily playing RU because of the suspect test, but I've been trying out CB Sneasel for a bit. After hearing about the CB Weavile hype up in OU, I tried CB Sneasel in the tier, and it's actually pretty good. Other than the plethora of Water-types in the tier, CB Sneasel is a solid cleaner and wallbreaker for teams, especially with the new Celebi presence in the tier.

Sneasel @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Low Kick

Although it has plenty of switch-ins such as Suicune, its Speed tier and STAB Priority gives Offensive team builds a hard time. Furthermore, Ice Shard safely deals with a majority of the Pokemon that outspeed Sneasel, such as M-Bee, M-Scept, Zam, and M-Aero:

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 224-266 (74.4 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sceptile: 408-480 (145.1 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 147-174 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Beedrill: 160-189 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Against slower but still critical elements of UU Offensive builds:

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 135-160 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 254-300 (78.3 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 153-181 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And against some new flavors such as Sp.Def Empoleon and some variation of Celebi:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 236-278 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You can also opt for Life Orb over Choice Band if you want to use Sneasel on more Offensive team compositions (and reduce momentum loss from CB). Sneasel also clearly has problems dealing with some variations of Balance or Stall (which is somewhat mitigated by Knock Off spam), and common Offensive elements such as Entei can clearly overpower it:

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 211-249 (84 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Overall, I think that Sneasel's a viable pick for a late-game cleaner for some styles of Balance and semi-stall.

 

[ict]

What does that do over Mamoswine all you did was providing calcs of Ice Moves which Mamoswine does better in any situation while maintaining a better typing for offense and much more more bulk also having a better attacking stat. ?_? so what exactly does that prove

 

[Hogg]

Just posting to say that I've actually also been playing with Sneasel and it's actually pretty cool. I've been running LO 4 attacks (Knock/Shard/Low Kick/Pursuit) on a CelePass team. Base 115 Speed tier without being a mega and fast STAB Pursuit are fun.