np: ORAS UU Stage 7 - Turn It Out

[sam-testings]

So I'm still trying to learn this tier, but isn't tentacool a lot better now? With Zapdos gone and Durr + Sylveon dropping, Tentacool is now a lot better than it used to be. It straight up walls most Conkeldurr sets and walls Sylveon too with its massive Spdef. I'm not exactly too sure what sets Celebi is going to run, but I believe defensive stealth rock does not run Psychic or Psyshock so you can also wall Celebi too. Just overall a pretty decent mon that seems a lot better now.

 

[57west]

So I'm still trying to learn this tier, but isn't tentacool a lot better now? With Zapdos gone and Durr + Sylveon dropping, Tentacool is now a lot better than it used to be. It straight up walls most Conkeldurr sets and walls Sylveon too with its massive Spdef. I'm not exactly too sure what sets Celebi is going to run, but I believe defensive stealth rock does not run Psychic or Psyshock so you can also wall Celebi too. Just overall a pretty decent mon that seems a lot better now.

I've always liked Tentacruel in the tier, and it is good against sylveon, but it does not wall Conkeldurr, I also personally wouldn't risk it against Celebi. That being said it is still the best non-mega spinner in the tier by a good margin, and that is valuable with the best defogger leaving the tier

 

[HC]

One thing I've been playing around with that I really like atm is TR, thanks to Sylveon being a phenomenal abuser of it, and Celebi likewise a great setter. Celebi works so well due to its high bulk and its ability to switch in on the majority of bulky waters in the tier, and then proceed to TR up and BP/HW out into something to begin to sweep or seriously dent the opponent's team. Celebi's plethora of support options really help it out here, as it can also set up SR, Heal status, even pass boosts if it really needs to.

Switching into a Modest Specs Sylveon is no mean feat, with only the likes of MegAggron, Metagross, Empoleon and bulky fires being somewhat able to do so, as Sylveon's coverage moves (Mainly HP fire) preventing others from wanting to do so. As a partner, I've found Crawdaunt to really synergise well with Sylveon, as the bulky dragons, waters and the likes of Mandibuzz who could stomach a hit do not appreciate Sylveon, and likewise, The aforementioned Fire types, in addition to many steels (after an SD) are all bopped by Crawdaunt, who can also run Superpower if the steel types are that much of an issue.

I've been using Cofag as another TR setter as its defensive bulk is remarkable, and similarly to Celebi, it can run a variety of Support moves, namely, T-Spikes, Destiny Bond, Magic Coat and Will-O-Wisp, as well as potentially having the option to sweep itself through either CM or NP. Not to mention, it also acts as a decent spinblocker versus Forretress and Tentacruel and is a great answer to Mega Bee who otherwise has a field day against the previous trio if TR is not up.

Overall, the drops, I think, have really helped the UU tier, even with Zapdos rising, as it allows for so many more options, and giving people a reason to look for niche threats again!

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

Trick Room man! I've been using it in UU for a long time, but these new drops are great for it. First off, they weaken stall, which is Trick Room's arch nemesis. Furthemore, Crawdaunt and Sylveon form a great offensive core. Conkeldurr can be quite viable on a UU Trick Room team as well, especially its Sheer Force Life Orb set, which I have been experimenting with. It's highly effective. Personally I'm using Bronzong and Porygon2 in place of Celebi and Cofagrigus, but that's just my preference.

 

[HC]

Bronzong & P2 are definitely good options, depending on how you play. Celebi & Cofagrigus don't have the same level of durability, but exert greater offensive pressure, and they're both so versatile that it makes it really hard to know whether they're going to just support or whether they'll sweep as well. Conk is definitely a very viable TR user, The SF set is so hard to wall; found myself needing to consistently double on it to get myself into a decent position against it

 

[Aquadext]

can we ban sylv

It's a dumb wallbreaker that restrains teambuilding even more by spamming its powerful stab almost without any risks since it has literally no good switchin (252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Escavalier: 111-131 (32.3 - 38.1%)), but unlike things like crawdaunt or PZ, it also has great typing and bulk for an offensive mon that let it come on a lot of things and threaten them with absurdly strong hyper voice. We really don't need that in UU

yes i'm frustrated

 

[Funbot28]

can we ban sylv

It's a dumb wallbreaker that restrains teambuilding even more by spamming its powerful stab almost without any risks since it has literally no good switchin (252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Escavalier: 111-131 (32.3 - 38.1%)), but unlike things like crawdaunt or PZ, it also has great typing and bulk for an offensive mon that let it come on a lot of things and threaten them with absurdly strong hyper voice. We really don't need that in UU

yes i'm frustrated

The thing you forget to mention however is its extremely mediocre speed which really hampers it from having many opportunities of actually firing off hits reliably. There are mons that just destroy fat teams as well such as CB Entei and mixed Hydreigon, so I don't really see the issue here.

 

[Aquadext]

The thing you forget to mention however is its extremely mediocre speed which really hampers it from having many opportunities of actually firing off hits reliably. There are mons that just destroy fat teams as well such as CB Entei and mixed Hydreigon, so I don't really see the issue here.

I don't know how you can compare sylveon to these two mons. Entei is a great mon but clearly has flaws (mainly shit defensive typing and being cockblocked by suicune/slowking/fire checks). mixed Hydreigon lures things at the cost of having a worse matchup against different things, while Sylveon doesn't care and obliterates everything. Hell even standard P2 struggles to check sylv (252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 154-183 (41.1 - 48.9%))

and being slow isn't a problem with that bulk/typing, it can always take a hit and get kills

 

[Funbot28]

I don't know how you can compare sylveon to these two mons. Entei is a great mon but clearly has flaws (mainly shit defensive typing and being cockblocked by suicune/slowking/fire checks). mixed Hydreigon lures things at the cost of having a worse matchup against different things, while Sylveon doesn't care and obliterates everything. Hell even standard P2 struggles to check sylv (252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 154-183 (41.1 - 48.9%))

and being slow isn't a problem with that bulk/typing, it can always take a hit and get kills

Yes, but this bulk allows it to survive maybe two or three hits, but does not allow it to survive powerful hits all that well. I won't argue that it can maybe net one KO each match, but it does not sweep teams consistently to warrant a ban imo. Also its not like bulky Steels are KO'ed by HP Fire or Ground, so Sylveon can often be forced out depending it its actually capable of surviving a hit (especially if its physical), which more often than not it can't.

 

[Aquadext]

it's a wallbreaker, it's not supposed to sweep lol

 

[Machiavelli]

The biggest problem about the drops in that they have created even more threats that are necessary to counter, and as a result the entire tier is too full of threats to make consistent teams. We already had enough problems to deal with like alakazam, mamoswine, crawdaunt, etc, but now having to counter or even check the new drops has made teambuilding difficult. The problem was never that sylveon or conkeldurr by themselves are broken but that they add to the multitude of almost-broken stuff in the tier.

 

[Funbot28]

it's a wallbreaker, it's not supposed to sweep lol

I know but bulky wallbreakers have always existed in UU, so what makes Sylveon that much different? Its speed and physical bulk is poor and its coverage is not all that great (and don't tell me that spamming Hyper Voice all the time is always optimal).

 

[Adaam]

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 171-202 (45.7 - 54%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 160-188 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO (removed Normal typing)
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 172-204 (45.9 - 54.5%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO

Three of the tier's best wallbreakers hit almost as hard or even harder than Sylveon does while have a much, much better speed tier and some even have extremely strong priority. Nobody is clamoring for them to be banned though. I think it's unfair to call something broken due to lack of counters when we clearly have a plethora of mons that have no counters already. Being so horrendously slow IS a huge problem for it since it's taking a hit if it wants to fire off a Hyper Voice which greatly reduces its ability to switch in later in the match or even attack.

Yeah it 3HKOs many resists but honestly if you let Sylveon fire 3-5 Hyper Voices for free in a game you played terribly and deserved to lose. Steels like Escav/Aggron/Bronzong, Poisons, and Fires only need to force Sylv out once and the next time it's coming in it would be at 76% if Rocks stay up. This puts it in KO range of so many things that it previously could "take a hit from."

Don't even get me started on its awful matchup vs offense. Pretty much everything outspeeds it so at most it gets 1 kill. If you get locked into Dark Pulse from Hydrei when the opponent has a Sylv in the back, that's your fault.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-371564547

My opponent plays great at the beginning to mitigate any potential Sylveon switch ins. As you can see, Sylv switches into literally nothing on this offensive team besides Defog Mence, so by simply switching out I'm put on the defensive and Sylv ends up being a liability. Yeah prediction goes both ways, but even if the Mence stayed it, it invites Entei/Nidoking for free.

TL;DR Sylv is not broken at all, many things have no counters and are bulky etc

 

[pokemonisfun]

Physically defensive arcanine is able to counter all three of the drops (except some special Celebi sets. Ironic how the grass type gives it the most trouble)

I haven't used the dog since 5th gen because it couldn't counter some top threats (the 50 billion offensive water types for instance) and had a painful sr weakness. I can see arcanine making a come back though now. Anyone try it yet for a nice defensive team

 

[Aquadext]

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 171-202 (45.7 - 54%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 160-188 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO (removed Normal typing)
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 172-204 (45.9 - 54.5%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO

these calcs are irrelevant since all the attacks you're listing have drawbacks (are we really comparing draco meteor to pixilate hyper voice ?) while hyper voice has no opportunity cost

I also disagree on this:

I think it's unfair to call something broken due to lack of counters when we clearly have a plethora of mons that have no counters already.

A plethora ? Every wallbreaker in UU that isn't sylveon has a solid counter. And please don't say iron tail hydreigon or something, that's literally what lures are for

For the rest, you're basically saying that in order to win against sylveon, you have to constantly make the right predictions and double switch so that it doesn't have the time to click hyper voice. Sorry but that works against every mon and cannot be used as an argument to determine if a mon is broken or not

 

[Adaam]

these calcs are irrelevant since all the attacks you're listing have drawbacks (are we really comparing draco meteor to pixilate hyper voice ?) while hyper voice has no opportunity cost

I also disagree on this:


A plethora ? Every wallbreaker in UU that isn't sylveon has a solid counter. And please don't say iron tail hydreigon or something, that's literally what lures are for

For the rest, you're basically saying that in order to win against sylveon, you have to constantly make the right predictions and double switch so that it doesn't have the time to click hyper voice. Sorry but that works against every mon and cannot be used as an argument to determine if a mon is broken or not

If mons was just calcs, then yes, Hyper Voice has no drawbacks. In practice, the second you fire off a Hyper Voice you risk inviting something like Nido/Entei/Roserade/literally any Fairy resist that can take a hit and immediately pressure your team. If you get a kill, great! Now your opponent can freely send out literally any wallbreaker ever to revenge it.

The -2 from Draco doesn't really matter when you obliterate pretty much anything with it minus Fairies which are all bopped by Specs Flash Cannon (yes it is a set, just because you don't see it everywhere does not mean it's bad). You might say something can take advantage of a -2 Hydrei after it kills something, and you'd be right. Similarly, there are so many ways to punish Sylveon if it ever clicks Hyper Voice or even worse, HP Fire or Psyshock.

Close Combat's drops, again not looking in a vacuum, are irrelevant in Luc's case since it gets the best priority move in the game making it incredibly difficult to revenge at +2. So how does one stop Lucario? Don't let it set up. How do you stop Sylveon? Don't let it get multiple free switches.

(Also Luc definitely has no counters, with its wide movepool and threat to NP and SD it can beat anything).

Sylveon has counters, c'mon now don't exaggerate. Blissey, Arcanine, Bronzong, Metagross, M-Aggron eat Hyper Voices easily. And please don't say Shadow Ball or something, that's what lures are for (also you'd be locked into Shadow Ball which is set up fodder for pretty much anything).

And no, I did not say you have to predict every turn correctly and constantly make doubles to win vs Sylveon. If you read, I was talking about it's matchup vs offensive teams where it gets (or should get) at most one switch in, and if the opponent takes it away, then your Sylveon is a liability. I even admitted even if he predicted wrong, I get to fire off a whopping one Hyper Voice before Entei/Nido come in and proceed to wallbreak (his team has ways to punish Sylveon, like a good team should).

Note: To avoid anyone believing I think Sylveon isn't broken because you can revenge it after it kills something, I wanna clarify that this is not what I think. There are plenty of offensive Fairy resists that can take a Hyper Voice and force it out due to its low speed and physical bulk. However, even if it gets a kill, it invites many wallbreakers in or is easily set up on if it is not locked into Hyper Voice.

Edit: Machiavelli Except Sylveon invites in 99% of UU's wallbreakers, not just Nidoking and Entei, as a revenge kill so good luck accounting for that when you build.

 

[Machiavelli]

If mons was just calcs, then yes, Hyper Voice has no drawbacks. In practice, the second you fire off a Hyper Voice you risk inviting something like Nido/Entei/Roserade/literally any Fairy resist that can take a hit and immediately pressure your team. If you get a kill, great! Now your opponent can freely send out literally any wallbreaker ever to revenge it.

The -2 from Draco doesn't really matter when you obliterate pretty much anything with it minus Fairies which are all bopped by Specs Flash Cannon (yes it is a set, just because you don't see it everywhere does not mean it's bad). You might say something can take advantage of a -2 Hydrei after it kills something, and you'd be right. Similarly, there are so many ways to punish Sylveon if it ever clicks Hyper Voice or even worse, HP Fire or Psyshock.

Close Combat's drops, again not looking in a vacuum, are irrelevant in Luc's case since it gets the best priority move in the game making it incredibly difficult to revenge at +2. So how does one stop Lucario? Don't let it set up. How do you stop Sylveon? Don't let it get multiple free switches.

(Also Luc definitely has no counters, with its wide movepool and threat to NP and SD it can beat anything).

Sylveon has counters, c'mon now don't exaggerate. Blissey, Arcanine, Bronzong, Metagross, M-Aggron eat Hyper Voices easily. And please don't say Shadow Ball or something, that's what lures are for (also you'd be locked into Shadow Ball which is set up fodder for pretty much anything).

And no, I did not say you have to predict every turn correctly and constantly make doubles to win vs Sylveon. If you read, I was talking about it's matchup vs offensive teams where it gets (or should get) at most one switch in, and if the opponent takes it away, then your Sylveon is a liability. I even admitted even if he predicted wrong, I get to fire off a whopping one Hyper Voice before Entei/Nido come in and proceed to wallbreak (his team has ways to punish Sylveon, like a good team should).

I completely agree that Sylveon is mediocre against offense, but if you are going to use the argument that offense has ways of punishing sylveon, then likewise you should have ways of dealing with sylveon's punishers. Swampert is not a nidoking and entei counter, so this is your fault, not sylveon's. The idea is that if you can get a chance to attack with sylveon it is amazing, but then you need something to fall back on when they bring in counters/checks. It is actually fine is sylveon is bad against offense, because the rest of your team should be good against it and leave sylveon to beat the slower and fatter teams. Also your team archetype is that of hyper offense, sylveon doesn't fit on that and it doesn't have to.

I'm referring to this as well: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-371564547

 

[DiscoDucky]

Sylv will be a problem against traditional balnce because mosr HVoice switch-ins all do not have reliable recovery and get easily worn out. Steels, fat Poisons, and Fires in UU mostly fit the aforementioned characteristic.

 

[Ramses]

I just want to say that counters is such an enthralling illusion that even the best of players fall into. It's so dumb how it's expected to have a counter to everything to make a great team.

People are misunderstanding that counterplay outweights counters. For those who don't know, counterplay is essentially being able to hold your own against all the threats in the tier without having to make extremely drastic plays.

An example is this bull with Sylveon. It obviously have counters like Adaam. pointed out, so the idea that it doesn't have counters still stands why?? Anyway, Sylveon probably has the most counterplay then anything else that's in the tier. Hell, Lucario in fact does have less solid counterplay than it does. Sylveon can at least be revenge killed by almost anything that resembles any notion of a faster, offensive powerhouse which is plentiful in this tier after accounting some form of residual damage and its poor speed. It's so amusing to hear pleas of "ban this plz" just because you can't wall it forever. You can't always consistently wall Hydreigon, Salamence, Lucario so why aren't we trying to ban them too?

If your only counterplay to Sylveon is Nidoqueen, then perhaps you deserve to lose to it if you're taking that risk anyway. You can't seriously be saying that Sylveon has consistently beaten each feasible team you've created and you've had no way at all to stop it. Entei, Nidoking, Lucario, CB Krook, Cobalion, etc, etc all come in it after it nets a KO or through some lucky doubles and outright blow it back or force it out.

So yeah, I hope this does seem like some weird tangent, and Sylveon seems sorta balanced (in a sense) n_n

And just saying, Conkeldurr is so much more of a threat than Sylveon, once everyone stops hyping the AV set and realize how the SF LO set literally picks and chooses it's switch-ins

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Tfw I have to help people solve basic issues.

How to counter Sylveon: An In-Depth Guide:

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/abilities/soundproof/

You're welcome.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

I just want to say that counters is such an enthralling illusion that even the best of players fall into. It's so dumb how it's expected to have a counter to everything to make a great team.

People are misunderstanding that counterplay outweights counters. For those who don't know, counterplay is essentially being able to hold your own against all the threats in the tier without having to make extremely drastic plays.

An example is this bull with Sylveon. It obviously have counters like Adaam. pointed out, so the idea that it doesn't have counters still stands why?? Anyway, Sylveon probably has the most counterplay then anything else that's in the tier. Hell, Lucario in fact does have less solid counterplay than it does. Sylveon can at least be revenge killed by almost anything that resembles any notion of a faster, offensive powerhouse which is plentiful in this tier after accounting some form of residual damage and its poor speed. It's so amusing to hear pleas of "ban this plz" just because you can't wall it forever. You can't always consistently wall Hydreigon, Salamence, Lucario so why aren't we trying to ban them too?

If your only counterplay to Sylveon is Nidoqueen, then perhaps you deserve to lose to it if you're taking that risk anyway. You can't seriously be saying that Sylveon has consistently beaten each feasible team you've created and you've had no way at all to stop it. Entei, Nidoking, Lucario, CB Krook, Cobalion, etc, etc all come in it after it nets a KO or through some lucky doubles and outright blow it back or force it out.

So yeah, I hope this does seem like some weird tangent, and Sylveon seems sorta balanced (in a sense) n_n

And just saying, Conkeldurr is so much more of a threat than Sylveon, once everyone stops hyping the AV set and realize how the SF LO set literally picks and chooses it's switch-ins

Yeah you are literally insane if you think conk is better than sylveon, this thing has the most spammable move in the tier with massive power and great defensive typing/bulk to allow it to check a plethora of top threats. You can't compare it to threats like hydrei, mence, and luke because to be the massive threats they are they rely on versatility to allow them to pick their switchins where as sylveon has one set that threatens the shit out of every archetype so you don't even have to pick your matchups. Not saying we should ban it but you are insanely underselling this threat.

 

[Cheryl.]

Brainless Mon (Sylveon) @ Leftovers / Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power Fire

Not sure if anyone's posted this set but I'm just gonna post it for y'all to see. So this is CM + 3 Attacks Sylveon, who I think is one of the best balance breakers in the tier right now. While it doesn't have the immediate power of the Choice Specs set, Sylveon is still pretty scary, and with some Calm Mind boosts up, it becomes very, very powerful. After some CM boosts, Sylveon becomes insanely hard to penetrate from the special attacking side and with the Special Attack boosts, defensive Pokemon like Porygon2 get easily overwhelmed. This set also has the power to switch up moves unlike the Specs set (But Hyper Voice is pretty brainless anyways), making checks like Escavalier fall to HP Fire after taking a Hyper Voice, expecting you to switch out. This set also differentiates itself from Florges, who is a better defensive CM sweeper, by being much more offensive right off the bat, making it a better offensive CM user. Overall, while the Specs and defensive sets are likely to be more popular, Sylveon still has some pretty cool options in it's bag if you're tired of using those sets.

 

[freezai]

Don't use CM Sylveon period. If u want an offensive CM fairy just use Gardevoir (cuz speed+power) or if you want something bulkier just run offensive CM Florges (which is a good set). It runs something along the lines of Psychic/Moonblast/Calm Mind/Synthesis with evs in speed and spatk. Not having one turn recovery is brutal and if you're not fast enough like something like Gardevoir, you need One turn Recovery.

On another note, I think a really cool set for Celebi is a specially defensive set. While not as flashy as some of the offensive or baton pass sets, Celebi does a good job of being a bulky water switchin, status absorber, and twave spreader. Leaf storm gets the OHKO on Krookodile whereas Energy Ball does 93 max on Krook.

Celebi @ Colbur Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Leaf Storm/Energy Ball
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn/Leech Seed/Stealth Rock/Perish song

 

[newfren]

Don't use CM Sylveon period. If u want an offensive CM fairy just use Gardevoir (cuz speed+power) or if you want something bulkier just run offensive CM Florges (which is a good set). It runs something along the lines of Psychic/Moonblast/Calm Mind/Synthesis with evs in speed and spatk. Not having one turn recovery is brutal and if you're not fast enough like something like Gardevoir, you need One turn Recovery.

On another note, I think a really cool set for Celebi is a specially defensive set. While not as flashy as some of the offensive or baton pass sets, Celebi does a good job of being a bulky water switchin, status absorber, and twave spreader. Leaf storm gets the OHKO on Krookodile whereas Energy Ball does 93 max on Krook.

Celebi @ Colbur Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Leaf Storm/Energy Ball
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn/Leech Seed/Stealth Rock/Perish song

Giga drain is good on that set and thunder wave isn't mandatory if you want to run baton pass but yeah it's a super great set that has been finding its way onto most of the teams I've been making recently. With baton pass you can also throw on weakness policy and occasionally get to pass +2 +2 into something for taking a weak u-turn from like a hydrei or something.

 

[DaRizzleTheMan]

guys I see a lack of metagross hype now which is sad (probs because metagross is still a bit eh but like w/e) checks specs sylveon and counters defensive /CM variants if AV (cuz HP Fire doesn't do much unboosted to AV Gross) and counters most celebi variants and can pop out the cheeky pursuit and nut that thing as it tries to BP the turn after you switch in, and there is probably some use in Zen Headbutt to check Conkeldurr altho idk how reliable that would be since Gross doesn't have many free slots to fit that in at all :/