np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle

[Kurona]

There's a big difference between the git gud argument and the don't give me your cherrypicked, anecdotal evidence of a player being an idiot argument. My argument is the latter. OP argued that Lando-I doesn't need to carry Knock Off, it just needs Knock Off support from another poke to beat the Lando-I counters. Okay, sure. But people aren't going to be Keeping Latis, Chansey, Cress, etc on Bisharps, Torn-Ts, etc. It's a bad argument. He expects people not to play smart, and that's his reasoning as to why Lando-I is "too strong". It's bad reasoning.





From here:

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-04/moveset/oususpecttest-1695.txt

| Earth Power 98.966% | | Sludge Wave 70.583% | | Hidden Power Ice 66.481% | | Rock Polish 42.541% | | Psychic 31.134% | | Focus Blast 29.494% | | Stealth Rock 23.829% | | Knock Off 12.476% | | Rock Slide 10.079% | | Other 14.416% | +-------------------

I made a mistake, FB is actually at 29%. But it still less than 1/3rd of Lando-Is.

You're right, RP isn't used on half the Lando-Is, but it is also the 4th most used move in the game. Also I won't stop using usage as an argument, the fact that people deny it and say it's only useful in how much something is used is RIDICULOUS. If a move isn't being used as much as another one, that is a strong indicator of how viable it is in the meta. It is the only SOLID evidence that STATISTICALLY shows viability. I am not arguing that usage=viablity, as so many people think I have. In fact, if you read any of my posts, I actually agree and say they don't equal each other. But usage is the STRONGEST INDICATOR of viability that we can see in STATISTICAL EVIDENCE. There is literally no other stronger form of evidence in defining viability. If people thought Knock Off was viable in this meta, it would at least be at 33-35%. Absolutely ridiculous that people are arguing that 12.5% of Lando's that carry Knock Off are a threat to the meta. Lando's carrying KO and giving up RP means they lose to a million other checks that they would rather not lose to. It makes Lando-I an inefficient late game sweeper-- and that's the main reason he's S-ranked.

Alright, um, look, here's the thing about using usage as a pure argument.
People are stupid.
You can argue all you want about what's used more than what, and how usage is... apparently a solid indicator for what's viable; but the fact is this assumes that every player that constitutes the usage statistics knows exactly what they're doing and that they are definitely good players. This is false. As stated, if this was the case then we wouldn't have the horrendous Hitmonchan and Ambipom in RU, and we wouldn't have had Donphan in OU for a while. I think at one point I even saw a third of Blastoise in OU weren't even holding Blastoisinite.
You're dealing with humans here which makes this statistical data a lot more subjective than you might think. Now of course this doesn't account for everything; and as you indeed said usage can generally be used as an indicator of what is viable; but again, Hitmonchan is RU and Donphan was OU. Usage stats can not be relied on to perfectly exemplify what are the best sets in the meta, so please stop stretching what limited uses the usage stats actually have.

 

[SparksBlade]

fyourblog dude that usage stat is from the suspect at least look that aegi is on the top, or more obviously, the "oususpect" in the link. Basing off that, apparently all your arguments that came off stats are only true for the Aegi-meta, which is not what we're discussing here.

There's a big difference between the git gud argument and the don't give me your cherrypicked, anecdotal evidence of a player being an idiot argument. My argument is the latter. OP argued that Lando-I doesn't need to carry Knock Off, it just needs Knock Off support from another poke to beat the Lando-I counters. Okay, sure. But people aren't going to be Keeping Latis, Chansey, Cress, etc on Bisharps, Torn-Ts, etc. It's a bad argument. He expects people not to play smart, and that's his reasoning as to why Lando-I is "too strong". It's bad reasoning.

idk what you mean, but Lando-I itself CAN opt to use Knock Off, while pursuit support is fantastic as well. Nothing in that list enjoys taking a Pursuit, while not preferring to stay in either. The git gud argument stems from many posts saying that people just lose to Lando and cry, which isn't the case. You dont keep Lati in on a Bisharp? idc, Pursuit is most likely the easiest thing i could do in my life. Again, this is a practical scenario, but pretty much in my favor.

 

[fyourblog]

Firstly i've no idea where you're getting that data from, so here's the correct stuff
http://i.imgur.com/0dwnlep.png
http://i.imgur.com/UGUh97K.png
http://i.imgur.com/7Twa9hY.png
After that, your constant denial of the fact that Lando does run Knock off significantly isn't help your cause.

Hide

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice]

This set is still an effective set for Lando-I while being a bit Gyara weak(Torn-t doesn't like coming in on Knock Off). Not like Gyara is so difficult to prepare for. I almost always pair this Lando set with Thundy, Mega-Manectric, or the like. It doesn't lose to Gyara, it just switches out from it. And from Team Preview you may figure out that i'm not running rock slide, i can easily pressure your Gyara or whatever cos that's prolly the only answer to my Lando. There's your loss.

I got my stats from the same site, but it says 12.5% on mine. Regardless of who's are right (I'll believe yours), and I'm going by the 1695 text, 1/5th (21%) of Lando's carrying KO does not mean much. Yes KO Lando is effective, but not as effective as RP Lando which is much, much more significant in the meta and what you teambuild for. If you're running KO Lando without RP, it means you're going to lose to the many, many checks that can come in and outspeed it like Starmie, M-Lop, Mega Metagross, and the list goes on.

 

[SparksBlade]

But the fact still remains that it's only revenge killed by offense, and we prefer a balanced meta where every playstyle is viable. Almost all the answers listed in this thread are to be found only on bulky offense or HO, and OU is aiming for more than viability of these 2 playstyles.

 

[petyer]

But usage is the STRONGEST INDICATOR of viability that we can see in STATISTICAL EVIDENCE. There is literally no other stronger form of evidence in defining viability. If people thought Knock Off was viable in this meta, it would at least be at 33-35%. Absolutely ridiculous that people are arguing that 12.5% of Lando's that carry Knock Off are a threat to the meta. Lando's carrying KO and giving up RP means they lose to a million other checks that they would rather not lose to. It makes Lando-I an inefficient late game sweeper-- and that's the main reason he's S-ranked.

Going by your logic we're going to end this. Usage is the strongest indicator of viability for the sake of the example.
Knock off is an incredible move in this meta because it can cripple a mon and make it useless for the entire battle. The fact that you want more than one third of the meta to run it in order for it to be viable is idiotic. If every single Lando-I ran Knock Off, people would expect it and not waste time scouting for the set. My next point comes off of this. The fact that less than a quarter run it makes it a big problem. You don't know that your opponent has Knock Off and have to risk getting your scarf knocked off or your specs, or whatever item you run to identify the type of Lando-I the opponent has.

 

[fyourblog]

First off there are a lot of other indicators to viability, and one of those are the actual viability rankings. If we went off the fact that usage is the biggest indicator of viability, should people stop preparing and using Manaphy, one of the biggest threats to Balance and Stall? And you mention the fact that Rock Polish is the reason it is S Rank, a quick look at the set viability rankings shows that it is S rank for all of its sets, Rock Polish, Calm Mind, and All Out Attacking with moves like Knock Off and Rock Slide.

Viability ranking isn't OBJECTIVE evidence, statistical evidence in usage is. Just because KO and CM sets are S ranked does mean that they are implanted as strongly into the meta. Cotton Guard Altaria is also S ranked, are you going to specifically prepare for that as well? You want to prepare for the most common sets and work around the differentiating ones. Lando's running Knock Off or Calm Mind lose to every check that outspeeds it.

 

[Sun King]

I got my stats from the same site, but it says 12.5% on mine. Regardless of who's are right (I'll believe yours), and I'm going by the 1695 text, 1/5th (21%) of Lando's carrying KO does not mean much. Yes KO Lando is effective, but not as effective as RP Lando which is much, much more significant in the meta and what you teambuild for. If you're running KO Lando without RP, it means you're going to lose to the many, many checks that can come in and outspeed it like Starmie, M-Lop, Mega Metagross, and the list goes on.

That's blatantly not right. You should prepare for ALL Landorus in the metagame that threaten your team. It's been said time and again that AoA and CM Lando are significantly bigger threats to Balance and Stall. You prepare for those ones over RP Lando if those are the teams you are building. The reason we say that your statistics aren't really helpful is because preparation is dependent on the team you're building. Not everyone plays Offense, so not everyone is as threatened by the RP set. The other sets put just as much work in against defensive teams as RP puts in against Offense.

Conversely, you choose which Landorus set to use based on the team you've got. If you want to shred defensive teams, you pick CM or AoA and team build around the faster threats to Landorus. If you want to wreck Offense, you choose RP and pick another wall breaker. No matter which set Landorus has, it's always a massive threat to a significant portion of teams.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Genis in a bottle? Are we already suspect testing hoopa-U?

Oh boy..

I'm so happ... actually idk, I'm kinda on the fence with this suspect..I fucking hate this thing, build your entire team to prepare for it, and it can still manage to break through. However, it makes me wonder how much more cancerous our metagame would become without him. I kinda like the slight decrease in stall because of lando-I, and when I really think about it.. removing him might still not fix team matchup since metagross becomes a bit more potent, and even lando-T becomes much more overcentralizing (face it, so many things run ice coverage JUST for lando-T..). Or maybe even stall becomes more of a pain in the ass when he leaves.

It's really ridiculous in sweeping potential, (gen 4 scizor any1?) and should be banned for how mindlessly easy it is to 6-0 teams... but at the same time, it doesn't cause any unhealthy play. Team matchup isn't really just lando, it's kinda just the ridiculous versitility our metagame has in total viable pokemon in OU that causes it.. sure banning lando removes just another threat, but we can say that about pretty much anything regardless of being broken or not.

I'm very much leaning towards ban, however I'm going to just sit back and see how this goes through.. as I can be somewhat persuaded to no ban...

 

[Agent Gibbs]

From here:

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-04/moveset/oususpecttest-1695.txt

| Earth Power 98.966% | | Sludge Wave 70.583% | | Hidden Power Ice 66.481% | | Rock Polish 42.541% | | Psychic 31.134% | | Focus Blast 29.494% | | Stealth Rock 23.829% | | Knock Off 12.476% | | Rock Slide 10.079% | | Other 14.416% | +-------------------

I made a mistake, FB is actually at 29%. But it still less than 1/3rd of Lando-Is.

That's from the suspect metagame that included Aegislash in it, not the official one. You can't use stats from a completely different metagame as an argument. If you look at the 1825 stats from the official metagame in April, Knock Off was at 16.2% usage and Focus Blast was about 39%.

You're right, RP isn't used on half the Lando-Is, but it is also the 4th most used move in the game. Also I won't stop using usage as an argument, the fact that people deny it and say it's only useful in how much something is used is RIDICULOUS. If a move isn't being used as much as another one, that is a strong indicator of how viable it is in the meta. It is the only SOLID evidence that STATISTICALLY shows viability. I am not arguing that usage=viablity, as so many people think I have. In fact, if you read any of my posts, I actually agree and say they don't equal each other. But usage is the STRONGEST INDICATOR of viability that we can see in STATISTICAL EVIDENCE. There is literally no other stronger form of evidence in defining viability.

There's a huge difference between saying "Knock Off isn't as good as some of Landorus's other coverage moves, and the usage stats reflect this" and "Knock Off isn't used all that much, therefore it's not a valid move at all." The first statement is reasonable enough. The second is ludicrous.

If people thought Knock Off was viable in this meta, it would at least be at 33-35%.

No it wouldn't. Most top threats have many viable moves at their disposal, but it is statistically impossible for more than a small handful of them to have 33-35% usage or more given that some moves are basically mandatory to begin with (no one would run Landorus without Earth Power, for example). Very versatile threats like Landorus tend to have several viable moves that don't get used all that often not because they're bad, but because their other moves are just so good themselves. It's not a case of viability, it's a case of mathematical limitations.

Absolutely ridiculous that people are arguing that 12.5% of Lando's that carry Knock Off are a threat to the meta.

First of all, 12.5% isn't even the correct number. Second, even if it was, it's not even that bad of usage lol. You might have a point if it were 2% or something, but this is 12.5% we're talking about. That's 1 in 8 Landorus carrying that move, and if you're trying to prepare for Landorus in teambuilding, then you want to make sure that you can at least get through 8 Landorus encounters before getting curbstomped by that one that you ignored because you deemed its popularity too low to worry about.

If you want to argue that a certain move isn't viable, then you should do so by actually arguing how the move works or fails to work in the metagame rather than just pointing at a usage stat and calling it a day, because that's a fallacious (and quite frankly, lazy) way to argue.

Lando's carrying KO and giving up RP means they lose to a million other checks that they would rather not lose to. It makes Lando-I an inefficient late game sweeper-- and that's the main reason he's S-ranked.

No, the biggest reason that Landorus was promoted to S Rank was that it has incredible power and coverage options that allow it to terrorize slower balanced and defensive cores. The Rock Polish set is just a fantastic addition to a Pokemon that was already top tier simply because of how powerful and moderately quick it was. Furthermore, this "giving up Rock Polish forces Landorus to lose to some checks" argument really doesn't hold much weight because it applies to all of Landorus's coverage moves as well. It doesn't matter what you run in that last slot, you're going to have to give up something to run something else. The problem with Rock Polish is that it's a great sweeper, but it loses out on much of the wallbreaking capabilities that make Landorus so dangerous because you have to give up valuable coverage. Any check that loses to Rock Polish could have just as easily been beaten on the switch, and even if they come in for a revenge kill or something, that just means Landorus had to kill something before they could get in safely. Not a bad trade, if you ask me. The reason the 4 Attacks set is such a great set is because it goes all out on coverage, bringing its list of solid switch-ins down from few to almost none. Dismissing this set because of mere usage stats is silly, especially considering you just admitted that the Landorus variant that you believe to be the most important one doesn't even make up half of all Landorus.

 

[petyer]

Viability ranking isn't OBJECTIVE evidence, statistical evidence in usage is. Just because KO and CM sets are S ranked does mean that they are implanted as strongly into the meta. Cotton Guard Altaria is also S ranked, are you going to specifically prepare for that as well? You want to prepare for the most common sets and work around the differentiating ones. Lando's running Knock Off or Calm Mind lose to every check that outspeeds it.

Bud, the fact that it is impossible to prepare for everything is the very reason bans need to happen. This is done so people don't straight lose to matchup, and let's be real in ORAS OU matchup is everything. With the loss of Lando-I people will have a chance to not lose at matchup and have an actual chance to win the game and you won't have some random say "bop thele is".

 

[Alfalfa]

That's blatantly not right. You should prepare for ALL Landorus in the metagame that threaten your team. It's been said time and again that AoA and CM Lando are significantly bigger threats to Balance and Stall. You prepare for those ones over RP Lando if those are the teams you are building. The reason we say that your statistics aren't really helpful is because preparation is dependent on the team you're building. Not everyone plays Offense, so not everyone is as threatened by the RP set. The other sets put just as much work in against defensive teams as RP puts in against Offense.

Conversely, you choose which Landorus set to use based on the team you've got. If you want to shred defensive teams, you pick CM or AoA and team build around the faster threats to Landorus. If you want to wreck Offense, you choose RP and pick another wall breaker. No matter which set Landorus has, it's always a massive threat to a significant portion of teams.

Lando-I can still wallbreak with Rock Polish, especially since Rock Polish usually runs a Modest or Rash nature, which gives it additional power. It does not necessitate another wallbreaker, as a lot of teams are still capable of running Landorus as their wallbreaker while still running Rock Polish. It will just need teammates to beat things it cannot cover in three moveslots.

 

[Drag0nair]

you cant just prepare for the common sets . the meta constantly adapts and therefore you have to be aware of anything brought. just because 12.5 % (or whatever it is) of landos have used knock doesnt mean that it is always gonna be like that . The next day you can face multiple knock off landos . You can't just expect the meta to completely right off innovation sets, cause teams are always constructed differently. If i feel that i struggle against chansey and latio(a)s rather than gliscor or lando, i'd much rather choose knock off over hp Ice .

 

[Snowy]

fyourblog At the moment you've basically just been regurgitating the same statements over and over again, which if you haven't been able to tell by the responses you've received, there not really valid. Continuing to push these statistics in our faces after turning them down for understandable reasoning, isn't going to convince us any more that this Pokemon isn't broken. If you wish to try and convey a message that gets through to us, please use a DIFFERENT and VIABLE one.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

But really, I'd say Landorus-I is a necessary evil, as edgy as that sounds. Considering it keeps a lot of things in check etc. we know what it does, it's basically the wallbreaker of OU - not that OU is lacking in wallbreakers anyways, Kyurem-B being almost as good at it and it also doesn't use up your mega slot.

Banning Lando-I would really make balance a lot more common, and would anyone really want that? Honestly, it'd be really dull.

So I'm on the do not ban side as of right now, haven't played on the ladder yet though.

I honestly can't tell if this is a sarcastic post or for real?

What stuff do you you believe would believe become broken if landorous left? Don't just say balance please provide specific pokemon you think would become broken.
You literally admit there would still be plenty of wallbreakers to deal with balance. If your too dumb to pack 1 or 2 in the landorousless meta that is your fault.

usage stats for playstyles ou:
offense.......................44.13044% balance.......................36.09212%
hyperoffense..................10.85029%
semistall..................... 5.83069% voltturn...................... 4.62167% stall......................... 3.09646%

Basically 36% of player bases like balance teams ie a pretty significant portion. Add stall and semi stall and nearly halve the player base uses bulkier teams.

The meta shouldn't be catered to people that think offense is the only way to play and stall is for noobs.

In my opinion this is a 2 for 1 trade off. Offensive teams will have a slightly harder time vs bulkier teams, but won't have to worry about getting swept by rp lando while in return balance and stall will have a multitude of options opened for them by no longer auto losing to landorous or being forced to carry a lando counter (cresselia or mega latias) that aren't that good outside stopping lando and still losing to common pursuit support or several checks: (Celebi, tornT mandibuzz, zapdos, gengar, gliscor, etc...) and risk losing to coverage.

 

[Norne]

For one I'm honestly telling you all to just ignore the guy. If no one replies to his faulty arguments they will most likely stop or get buried around decent ones, be pro or against the ban.

Anyways I'm really leaning towards ban. This pokemon might not be brutally versatile but it has just the exact tools to plow trough what it wants, it like Greninja in that sense but with more boons towards demolishing cores than snipping certain team elements like ninja did, however the big difference lies in the fact that Landorus is relatively easier to revenge kill but not as easy to wear down with the added utility of having 3 great setup moves.

If my comparison with Greninja is faulted I'm OK with it, it's just that it really does well at performing a similar role with the added benefit of working as a stall breaker or win condition against HO.

I really dislike how this single pokemon is able to put such high strain on stall and balance team building process and gives a huge boost to the usage of HO at the same time.

If anything I'm voting for ban on the basis of what metagame I would prefer, and I feel like one without Lando I offers a better metagame than one with its potential presence.

Also stall isn't a noob play style, if anything holding safe switch in thresholds and pulling of good cores has gotten harder with the advent of ORAS. I'd say it's a very rewarding play style.

 

[Facts]

I'm glad this suspect has finally happened, We all know Landorus-I is the first mon that comes to mind when we hear the word "cancer". It's sheer force(no pun intended)allows it to absolutely steamroll through teams, it's only somewhat reliable check is Assault Vest Tornadus-T, which can also be beaten by it. Landorus is capable of running Rock Slide in order to get past this check which leaves you with nothing left to stop this monster. Despite Rock Slide being fairly uncommon it still is a move to lookout for. Tornadus-T isn't capable of taking this hit at all(not to mention another one of it's checks named Talonflame who gets completely obliterated by this move and i'm sure you know why). Here's a calc just to display the damage:

0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the standard Assault Vest spread and as you can see, it'll be taking a very significant amount of damage, at least 80% which allows it to be taken out after Stealth Rock. Now, as I said above, this move isn't very common and only ran among a small percentage of players. Landorus has other means of getting rid of Tornadus-T, running Knock Off in order to get rid of its Assault Vest will prevent it from switching in multiple times, despite it having Regenerator. Sludge Wave will be doing an enormous amount of damage after it loses its Vest. Here's another calc:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-T: 177-208 (53.3 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, It does at least 53% and factor in the possibility of poisoning Tornadus, it'll eventually be worn down and taken out. Landorus also has access to Rock Polish which allows to easily sweep late game. Boosting it's speed gives it the ability to outspeed it's common checks such as Keldeo and Latias. Rock Polish / Earth Power / Knock Off. These three moves alone allow it to be very versatile, Earth Power as it's STAB is ridiculously powerful especially if it is coming from a Modest variant which is commonly ran with Rock Polish. Time for more calcs:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 274-324 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
8 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 242-286 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, both of these mons are easily taken out. All Keldeo needs is a little prior damage in order to ensure the OHKO and Latias has a chance to fall after SR damage. You can try checking this set with your own Landorus which will work most of the time, unless they're running Hidden Power Ice of course which I've found to be very efficient. Landorus has such a fantastic move pool that it is able to do crucial damage to any team and will always initiate a guessing game for you. Which brings me to it's weaknesses. Landorus has 4MSS extremely bad which and is destroyed by Ice priority users such as Weavile. But both of these flaws can easily be patched up by one single team mate, like Scizor for example with it's Steel-type priority.

Summary: Landorus is most definitely a top tier threat and maybe even the best mon in the tier as of right now. It's extremely bad for the meta and you can count on me to vote Ban.

 

[brittney♥kitty]

As you can see, It does at least 53% and factor in the possibility of poisoning Tornadus

pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffff cmon

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

We all know Landorus-I is the first mon that comes to mind when we hear the word "cancer"

Really? When I hear the word "cancer", I think of Pokemon like Donphan, but that's just me (good post, though).

Excited that this Suspect Test is happening. Landorus-I was always one of those Pokemon that I used in Gen 5 before its ban, as well as this Gen, since it really didn't lose anything besides Sandstorm unpredictability being dropped somewhat. It's still one of the strongest Pokemon, but that's to be expected from the leader of a trio, right? His only true weakness is good ol' Four Move Slot Syndrome, but EVEN THEN, it sweeps far too well with its classic set, being Earth Power, Psychic, Focus Blast, and Sludge Wave, plus moves like U-Turn and Knock Off being highly used regardless of Life Orb and Sheer Force thanks to utility.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Once again, we return to the Offensive Characteristic that Landorus has been guilty of in the previous Generation, particularly after its Dream World ability was released, giving it a birth of new options to abuse. The same is most definitely true for him now--in fact, it might even worse because of new partners and new Mega-Evolutions to act as a partner system--see Double Dragon in Gen 3, Double Bird this Gen, and just about any good 2 Pokemon cores that work especially well like Rotom-W and Heatran (just naming one example, the list could last a while if we listed more). This isn't one of those Pokemon that you have to prepare for as horribly as Aegislash or Gen 4 Garchomp, where every team is like this:

Broken Pokemon
Broken Pokemon Partner 1
Broken Pokemon Partner 2
Broken Pokemon Check 1
Broken Pokemon Check 2
Random Pokemon that somehow glues the team together or Revenge Killer

Landorus is NOT this. Landorus has NEVER been this. I'm sure most of us can agree on this. It's most definitely strong, yes, but not as cancerous as any of the Mega Evolutions we banned (Lucario, Kangaskhan, Gengar, Mawile...remember those?). Is it defining? You bet it is. It was defining before, it sure will again. As a heavy user of this Pokemon, I am leaning on a ban of Landorus-I due to the Offensive Characteristic.

I really hope there aren't people that, like in previous Suspect Tests, just expect the Pokemon to have every move at once and be able to kill everything in sight. I'm hoping for thoughtful posts and plenty of good arguments to be made. This is a Pokemon that deserves such.

...or is that wishful thinking?

 

[AlphaGiratina]

About DAMN time. I've been clamoring g for this suspect since, I dunno, April? Whatever. Landorus is an overly centralizing threat that I personally believe to be one of the reasons ORAS OU is one of the most boring tiers. Yes, if you just slap him on a team sand expect him to destroy everything, he'll probably just get a kill and die immediate after . But like Haunter said, put this Pokemon in the hands of a capable player and he tears many playstyles a new one . We mention that Mega Latias is a counter? Even it has to be wary of switching in due to U-Turn doing solid damage then just sending out a pursuit trapper I.e. Bisharp (That's my main COIL team core btw ;] ). Chansey catches a Knock Off and is then easily worn down by chip damage and massively powerful Focus Blasts and Earth Powers. SpDef Zapdos can have a surprise Sheer Force boosted Stone Edge. I've even had games where the foe and myself both send in a Lando I first turn, I win the speed tie and hp ice, and they forfeit; and half of those times I feel the quit is almost justified.
It's definitely not Mega Salamence level, it's more of a Greninja kind of mon: It plus a well put together team prove too challenging to topple, or you're put in the terrible scenario where you need to know this mon's set before you can stop it, and by then your team has been raped by the very land they stand on. Even a core of Landorus + Tyranitar can put in work due to TTar trapping Latis, killing Dos and other flying types, and providing hazards + sand chip damage. And to put the final nail in the coffin, Lando's bulk is very solid for a sweeper, and can prove difficult to revenge kill, often coming down to a roll of some sort. Insert a picture of Chewbacca strangling Lando Calrissian here, because I want this thing BANNED. GONE. DESTROYED.

Edit: Fine, I'll do it myself

 

[Gimmick]

As you can see, It does at least 53% and factor in the possibility of poisoning Tornadus

pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffff cmon

lol but it doesn't even poison because of sheer force

But yeah, 53% is still absurdly powerful for a coverage move vs Tornadus-T, which is increasing in popularity as a SDef pivot. STAB Raikou's Volt Switch does even less:

252 SpA Raikou Volt Switch vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 152-182 (45.7 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

There's really no question about Landorus-I's power. That combined with everything else it has to offer, which I posted about on the last page, is why it's banworthy.

 

[No hugs 4 U]

This thing doesn't stabilize the meta, it's just an asshole people put on their teams cause it works. This thing can beat anything that would give it problems by just changing a move. A diverse movepool, pretty handy speed tier, respectable bulk and being by far the best mixed sweeper in OU means nothing is safe. About a clean 80% of OU takes about 50% or more damage from its unboosted attacks. All of it's counters.. wait pardon me, all of it's checks can be easily played around by using shit like tyranitar. latias and cresselia get fucked by knock off and u-turn while chansey, falls to a knock off or superpower and all skarmory does is deny the inevitable. Although you may argue that latias outspeeds and kills with ice beam, let's remember how smart people are and about 99% of the time people are gonna see what's coming and switch to tyranitar or a fairy like Sylveon and pursuit latias to death or badly damage your switch in with a choice specs hyper voice from sylveon. If you have any other ideas for checks or a possible counter that I missed please inform me and yes I want this thing gone so ban please.

 

[Random Passerby]

Okay I already did but here we go again:

Chansey (Knock Off, Calm Mind Focus Blast, passive) , Latios, Latias (Knock Off, and LO + SF Sludge Waves hurts) , Cressilia (Passive) , Gengar (Knock Off, Psychic, Rock Slide) , Av Torn-T(Rock Slide, Knock Off) , Skarmory(Focus Blast) , and Sp Def Zapdos (Rock Slide, and what is Zapdos going to do to it lol). Along with the numerous checks it has that I haven't listed. It can easily be working around and beaten.

Replies in bold.
Landorus-I is obviously the best Pokemon in the metagame that there is literally no reason not to use it unless you want to play Stall. LO + SF hits very hard and limits the Pokemon that can switch-in, forcing the opponent to switch and gives the Landorus-I user instant momentum (and potential to remove a mon from the game since it can 2HKO at least 70% of OU with its power and coverage. Furthermore, Lando has the all-out attacker set, CM and RP sets which gives hell to the playstyles it is created to beat. This is extremely constraining to team building and causes huge match-up issues in the ORAS OU metagame. While Landorus-I is not perfect (such as the awkward Speed tier it resides in), most of the things that can KO it can't take hits from it and is easily worn down.

 

[BlackBloodz]

Landorus-I is definitely a Pokemon running the current meta; With it's ability Sheer Force and an amazing 115 base Special Attack combined with a 125 base Attack rocking with a pretty much huge move pool that takes advantage of its ability makes that Pokemon one of the hardest to switch into duo to the reasons said before and also the unpredictability of the move set this Pokemon carries in any battle.

While having couple of counters, Landorus-I can still run through most archetypes of teams, from Balance to Offense and even Stall depending on the move set. Rock Polish, Calm Mind, All Out Attacker or any other set work just greatly.

Landorus-I suspect test definitely in its place and it was needed, but I am not quite sure whether it will stay or not. Anyway, I will be sharing my thoughts on it when I go further in the suspect test.

 

[Analytic]

I'd also like to mention that Landorus is really versatile too, it can tailor its moves according to its team's needs to help dealing with mons that others can't. This makes it really hard to switch into as you don't know what moves it is running and like mentioned earlier, one opportunity is all Landorus-I needs.

I'm interested to see how HO and Balance perform w/o Landorus as it is one of the most threatening pokemon to those playstyles. I think M-Metagross might get slightly better

 

[skup]

while not having counters (or in landos case, 1 whole counter) doesn't necessarily make something broken, it definitely makes them questionable. a mon without counters need to both A) not get free switch-ins on basically anything in the meta and B) not have a very good speed tier to be non broken. mons that fail A tend to come in way too easily and just dissolve teams, forcing the opponent to make stupid doubles or not use any mons that give them a free switch to deal with them. while mons that fail B tend to be stupidly hard to force out even after they get a kill, and can force out a large majority of the meta any time they come in.

while i think we can agree lando passes A, only really coming in on like, Hippowdon off the top of my head, the issue i think is it doesnt pass B. on any non offense team you're only going to have 1 or 2 mons faster than it, which means that lando can come in after most kills and almost always get a kill of its own, and then it forces the opponent into one of a small number of mons to revenge it. what really doesnt help is the mons into forces you into (keldeo, lati@s) tend to be fairly easy to switch into, bar some megas (and gengar) that frustratingly barely miss out on an ohko against it...

voting ban