You're telling me that I'm being nonsensical when the exact figures you're throwing at me are completely subject to trends in the metagame. Legitimately all of Landorus' main sets (ones that aren't OO) are equally viable; RP just gets used a bunch because it performs well against Offense. I can't think of anything that is more viable than CM Lando if you want to utterly dismantle a defensive team; nothing punches holes better than the All-Out-Attacker set. If we saw the metagame transition towards Defensive play styles, I can promise you that CM and AOA would be much higher in usage than RP.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle
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I think I speak for a lot of people when I say I'm happy this suspect test is finally happening. I'm willing to stay open minded, but im leaning towards ban. I kinda see this as an opposite mega metagross. mega metagross best set is considered it's AoA sets because it is so strapped for coverage, this did not make the agility sets bad, but they were inferior due to less coverage. Landorus however, I personally see the rock polish sets better. These sets not only are backed up by LO SF boosted attacks, but Landorus gets all the coverage it needs from Earth Power/ Sludge Wave/ HP ice in b4 bronzong. All out attacking sets are still a pain for balance, but having a boosting move lets it choose what play style it can shit on. Which what I think makes this thing so great. It has the bulk, coverage, and immediate power to threaten balance, so it has room to run RP to make offense cry, and CM, while I find it inferior, destroys stall. That leaves you 5 more team slots to beat the play style your Landorus can't cover. I'm not saying Landorus just flat out beats these play styles, but it does makes them significantly easier. Even if you are playing HO and the opponents Landorus isn't RP, you still have to play it carefully by not letting it get in for free, because if it happens to be RP, it's GG. The same applies to stall teams facing Non CM variants, but to a lesser degree. I find Landorus having what I will call greninja syndrome, being that your opponent will never really know what coverage move it is running. Greninja, you always knew it ran Ice beam and Gunk shot, that's two moves you know it will always have, but Landorus only needs 1 move, and that's earth power. It has a slew of moves that it can run and that is why it has "no counters". Talonfalme and tornadus-t an issue? Rock slide. Gliscor/opposing Landorus issues? HP ice, and so on. By the time you figure out its coverage, it has already dented your team and put you far behind in the game/set up and become a huge threat. These combined reasons is why I think Landorus-I should be banned
Plus I like using Mamoswine in UU and if Landorus stays it'll rise back to OU.
You say the high level tournament players consider Knock Off and RS over the typical RP set. Please provide ample evidence of this claim, plus replays to support it.
Ye, I totally agree with ppl saying that Lando is a death matchine. This thing can easily smash you, even if you're prepared. It's a huge problem for every type of playstyle, since the moment that Cmind (hello stall) and Polish (hello offense) are the most commons set.
To stop him you had to run Latwins (do not forget that 100% of times Lando has ScarfTyra support) or AV Torna-T (rock fucking slide), which limits a lot options for your team build. It can really stop you in a lot of different way cause of his really good movepool (were we forgetting 'bout knock off? no pls.)
I don't want this shit in ou anymore and I hope ppl understand how this threat damage actual OU tier. BAN!
To stop him you had to run Latwins (do not forget that 100% of times Lando has ScarfTyra support) or AV Torna-T (rock fucking slide), which limits a lot options for your team build. It can really stop you in a lot of different way cause of his really good movepool (were we forgetting 'bout knock off? no pls.)
I don't want this shit in ou anymore and I hope ppl understand how this threat damage actual OU tier. BAN!
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Well, I think Landorus-I can revenge kill or check so much more than that. Also, it more than soft checks Heatran, with a potential air balloon gone, there is no way of it not being OHKO'd by EP. Landorus can have coverage to threaten so much more than that, and you never know what your opponent chose to have coverage for that match. And how does Gyarados counter it?
Landorus doesn't have a single role to fill, it can fill in as a wallbreaker or as an RP sweeper so there is no best set to it
I used to like using Landorus-I on teams, but then it got too easy to get wins. This thing is way too good. It can destroy offense with a Rock Polish set and clean almost any team after one boost, wreck stall with a Calm Mind set, be used as an all-out attacker, set Stealth Rocks...you get the point. Landorus-I beats almost anything with the right set and its teammates can beat the stuff it can't. It hits insanely hard due to Sheer Force+Life Orb, and can beat almost all defensive mons besides unconventional sets like SpDef stuff. Let's face it: this thing's time to get banned has come, and we shouldn't miss the opportunity to get rid of an overpowered and overcentralizing threat in the current OU metagame.
BAN
BAN
This suspect is well over due, but nether the less it's finally here! Landorus-I with its exellent coverage, ridiculous power, good speed tier, awesome typing and access to great set up moves, allow it to destroys entire playstyles. Hyper Ofense loses once a Rock Polish is up and Balance + Stall say good night at the sight of a Calm Mind. With all this said no amount of preparation can save you from this monster, due to how versatile it is and it's ability to lure in mons like lati@s and then smack them with a Knock Off. If this thing doesn't deserve a ban, I don't know what does, it is by far the most detrimental and limiting pokemon this meta has to offer and it will continue to stunt the growth of the OU Tier if we let it stay! BAN.
Usage is in no way a reliable method to judge viability. It can certainly be a good indicator; but then you have things like Hitmonchan and Ambipom being RU by usage despite them being completely unviable in that meta, and in our very own OU we've got Zapdos having enough usage to be in the tier - and yes, while it is a good Pokémon, there are many Pokémon much more viable than it that are BL are under.
Yeah well I've had a ton of success with Landorus behind Substitute firing off boosted Psychic, Earth Power attacks, and lastly, Knock Off. If you Subsistute on your opponent's switch, prepare yourself to take immediate control of the upcoming few turns. Bested by like all I can think of is Mandibuzz, and you still remove any item, you can hit twice with Psychic meaning you can focus on cleaning up with Earth Power.
If used under the right hands, Rock Polish sets can be dangerously hard to keep down. The trouble is priority however, as Azumarill can revenge kill most Landorus which is why I have grown familiar and often favored Substitute because its speed is great and anything faster usually get OHKOed by Earth Power. Sheer damage output iLandorus proposes at times, especially with access to Knock Off, you can bet no matter what your opponent has in his/her team, they're going to have to think greatly of how to get out of a tight mess.
So you can't give Landorus a turn and not expect to pay for it.
If used under the right hands, Rock Polish sets can be dangerously hard to keep down. The trouble is priority however, as Azumarill can revenge kill most Landorus which is why I have grown familiar and often favored Substitute because its speed is great and anything faster usually get OHKOed by Earth Power. Sheer damage output iLandorus proposes at times, especially with access to Knock Off, you can bet no matter what your opponent has in his/her team, they're going to have to think greatly of how to get out of a tight mess.
So you can't give Landorus a turn and not expect to pay for it.
This Pokémon, is the ultimate metagamer overcentralizing, uncounterable, no-checker.
But really, I'd say Landorus-I is a necessary evil, as edgy as that sounds. Considering it keeps a lot of things in check etc. we know what it does, it's basically the wallbreaker of OU - not that OU is lacking in wallbreakers anyways, Kyurem-B being almost as good at it and it also doesn't use up your mega slot.
Banning Lando-I would really make balance a lot more common, and would anyone really want that? Honestly, it'd be really dull.
So I'm on the do not ban side as of right now, haven't played on the ladder yet though.
But really, I'd say Landorus-I is a necessary evil, as edgy as that sounds. Considering it keeps a lot of things in check etc. we know what it does, it's basically the wallbreaker of OU - not that OU is lacking in wallbreakers anyways, Kyurem-B being almost as good at it and it also doesn't use up your mega slot.
Banning Lando-I would really make balance a lot more common, and would anyone really want that? Honestly, it'd be really dull.
So I'm on the do not ban side as of right now, haven't played on the ladder yet though.
Landorus-I does have really great offensive stats, backed by a wonderful ability and a movepool that complements the said ability well. Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Psychic, Rock Slide, Knock Off(though not boosted by Sheer Force) is a movepool that spreads over the whole tier. This means that it can easily hit anything in the tier hard enough to make an impression. Also possesses CM and RP, which threatens Balance/Stall and offense, respectively. On paper and in practice, this is a threat that seems too good to handle within the comfort of teambuilding. Sheer Force+Life Orb increase the damage output to insane levels, and we're worried of the Tough Claws boost M-Mega gets. Saying that it can't carry all it's coverage at once in no way reduce the threat that it might be carrying that coverage which you dread. Mega Latias is a good answer to this, but that's the end of list; everything else is shaky. Not to mention it's easy to provide it with support if it foregoes some coverage move.
Thing is, it is FAR more easy to support a Lando-I than it is to check it. Sure you may be able to figure out it's probable moveset from team preview, but thay still doesn't give you that big of an advantage cos you still have to switch something in on Lando, and all while under the fear that one of the supporting may come in. It's far more in favor of the Lando user than the defender.
So atm, im for ban but im still following this thread and chats on PS to see if there's any argument that can shift me view.
Thing is, it is FAR more easy to support a Lando-I than it is to check it. Sure you may be able to figure out it's probable moveset from team preview, but thay still doesn't give you that big of an advantage cos you still have to switch something in on Lando, and all while under the fear that one of the supporting may come in. It's far more in favor of the Lando user than the defender.
So atm, im for ban but im still following this thread and chats on PS to see if there's any argument that can shift me view.
Landorus can literally adapt to what your team needs. Need a pivot? Give it U-Turn! Need something to lure Gyarados and Zapdos? Slap in some yung Rock Slide. Need a stallbreaker? Slap in some Calm Mind. Need something to clean offense? Slap in some Rock Polish. I've seen some arguments about how Ice coverage has been increasing lately and that hampers it, at least one post, I'm sure, and I'm not even sure if that's the best way to put it. You ever think that Ice Hidden Power, Icy Wind Gengar, HP Ice Diancie, etc is increasing because Landorus-I is such a big threat? Like seriously, on almost all of my Offense teams I either have a Mamoswine or a Weavile to revenge kill this roid rage thing. That proves it's at least semi centralizing, yeah, not as much as Aegislash as an example lately, but it's still quite strong and can literally destroy pretty much any team. Anyone try Sub/CM Landorus? Yeah that thing is insane. The only opportunity cost is pretty much, I use this, can't use Lando-T. Lando-T has actually been lowering on the Viability lately. These days I prefer Hippowdon to defensive Landoge, so that set is knocked out the window. Hell, I'd use Gliscor over defensive Landoge. The scarf set is decent at revenging and a good pivot still though. The only opportunity cost Lando-I actually brings to the table is not being able to use its Therian counterpart. That's pretty insane for something so damn strong. Since it doesn't get any Life Orb recoil unless using HP Ice or Knock Off, it has more longetivity than most LO users.
I'm really leaning towards ban. (Although I might not try laddering anyway so lol.)
I'm really leaning towards ban. (Although I might not try laddering anyway so lol.)
Alright, this is a suspect I feel like should have come a while ago, certainly before the April Fools'/Real suspect tests to drop things (regardless of what, we should get all potential bans before we try drops). Landorus-I, despite being a very clearly offensive mon, essentially eats balance and then gets to choose if he wants to eat another playstyle on the side with either a coverage or boosting move.
The thing about most wallbreakers is that they can break individual walls, but can be mitigated with well built defensive cores. Landorus-I is a Pokemon with the tools to just outright break whatever cores it wants, rather than just mons. Dealing with Landorus-I reliably tends to require applying offensive pressure constantly, so Stall and defensive mons are kind boned there. Not to mention, if your opponent is aware of this strength of Lando's and built a Momentum grabbing team (Voltturn, Baton Passers, or is just smart with HO sacs), it's going to take smart plays to avoid giving it an easy switch in.
While not exactly bulky, wearing Landorus-I down is significantly harder than it seems. It's immune to Spikes and neutral to SR; unlike most offensive threats with the item it takes no LO recoil; its typing gives it 2 useful immunities and a decent array of resistances; it takes no Sandstorm damage from Ttar Pursuit support; and most mons carrying Toxic/WoW for reasons other than luring usually aren't going to like stomaching a move Landorus could very well be carrying. This further contributes to the issue of Landorus basically shitting on the defensive aspect of teams, since the next immediate balance eater I think of (Kyurem-B) is extremely hazard weak with much worse typing. And while not a tank, Landorus-I's bulk is enough that he's only going to be OHKO-ed by something with a right to be called offensive, often still needing a STAB to be sure.
Landorus-I is also extremely easy to support. Going off fyourblog 's list of answers to be inclusive (Chansey, Latios, Latias, Cresselia, Gengar, Av Torn-T, Skarmory, and Sp Def Zapdos), Scarf Ttar deals with 2/3's of that list (Only misses on FB Gengar switching in and Physically defensive Skarmory). Everything else either hates a strong Physical STAB (especially after taking some notable chip damage from Landorus) in the long run, or loses outright to Pursuit trapping (Crunch used for simplification).
So Scarf Tyranitar answers 2/3's of Landorus-I's counters (assuming he's not equipped for them already) if your team doesn't cover them itself, which leave Lando to steam roll the defensive cores that could absorb Tyranitar's hits. With Defensive teams so easily handled by Landorus, the metagame shifts heavily to offense over balance because it's the playstyle that most easily deals with Landorus at little cost to itself. Whether or not Landorus is broken, I feel that's a sign of having a centralizing effect on the meta game: even if teams are not directly preparing for Landorus the way they would for Aegislash, he tilts the metagame towards favoring one playstyle over the other because he's relatively low risk (some type synergy and no Lando-T?) for high reward (eating defensive cores alive and also potentially cleaning offense).
And I don't want to hear Knock Off or Rock Slide dismissed simply for having lesser usage. The fact is that if Landorus cares enough about these things to beat them itself rather than delegating it to team support, the moveslot is probably worth it to the AoA sets punching holes anyway. Landorus-I does certainly have sweep potential, but the job he's chosen for and excels at is punching holes in balanced builds.
People say that a Landorus-I ban would lead to balance shooting up drastically in usage. I only agree since losing the balance eater Landorus is would certainly bring a drastic increase, but only in making the playstyle as common as the current ones. Balance still has a ridiculous number of wallbreakers and attackers to deal with (a lot of what would be left in S gives them problems, even Clefable who I don't support there), but having to account for those and play ridiculously carefully around Landorus who just can't be answered sufficiently makes the playstyle significantly harder to play than anything besides full/passive stall.
He's taken a hit since ban in Gen 5, but I still don't think Landorus-I fits well into a healthy OU metagame yet.
The thing about most wallbreakers is that they can break individual walls, but can be mitigated with well built defensive cores. Landorus-I is a Pokemon with the tools to just outright break whatever cores it wants, rather than just mons. Dealing with Landorus-I reliably tends to require applying offensive pressure constantly, so Stall and defensive mons are kind boned there. Not to mention, if your opponent is aware of this strength of Lando's and built a Momentum grabbing team (Voltturn, Baton Passers, or is just smart with HO sacs), it's going to take smart plays to avoid giving it an easy switch in.
While not exactly bulky, wearing Landorus-I down is significantly harder than it seems. It's immune to Spikes and neutral to SR; unlike most offensive threats with the item it takes no LO recoil; its typing gives it 2 useful immunities and a decent array of resistances; it takes no Sandstorm damage from Ttar Pursuit support; and most mons carrying Toxic/WoW for reasons other than luring usually aren't going to like stomaching a move Landorus could very well be carrying. This further contributes to the issue of Landorus basically shitting on the defensive aspect of teams, since the next immediate balance eater I think of (Kyurem-B) is extremely hazard weak with much worse typing. And while not a tank, Landorus-I's bulk is enough that he's only going to be OHKO-ed by something with a right to be called offensive, often still needing a STAB to be sure.
Landorus-I is also extremely easy to support. Going off fyourblog 's list of answers to be inclusive (Chansey, Latios, Latias, Cresselia, Gengar, Av Torn-T, Skarmory, and Sp Def Zapdos), Scarf Ttar deals with 2/3's of that list (Only misses on FB Gengar switching in and Physically defensive Skarmory). Everything else either hates a strong Physical STAB (especially after taking some notable chip damage from Landorus) in the long run, or loses outright to Pursuit trapping (Crunch used for simplification).
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 129-152 (20 - 23.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 178-210 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- 86.1% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage (That's a KO after Sandstorm and one attack from each)
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 408-480 (157.5 - 185.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 160-190 (48.1 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 130-153 (39.1 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (So this thing has to U-Turn out before Ttar enters or it'll be too weak for Lando without more Regeneration)
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 170-204 (38.2 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (SpD set is typically the Lando answer)
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Zapdos: 356-422 (92.9 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 178-210 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- 86.1% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage (That's a KO after Sandstorm and one attack from each)
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 408-480 (157.5 - 185.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 160-190 (48.1 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 130-153 (39.1 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (So this thing has to U-Turn out before Ttar enters or it'll be too weak for Lando without more Regeneration)
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 170-204 (38.2 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (SpD set is typically the Lando answer)
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Zapdos: 356-422 (92.9 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
So Scarf Tyranitar answers 2/3's of Landorus-I's counters (assuming he's not equipped for them already) if your team doesn't cover them itself, which leave Lando to steam roll the defensive cores that could absorb Tyranitar's hits. With Defensive teams so easily handled by Landorus, the metagame shifts heavily to offense over balance because it's the playstyle that most easily deals with Landorus at little cost to itself. Whether or not Landorus is broken, I feel that's a sign of having a centralizing effect on the meta game: even if teams are not directly preparing for Landorus the way they would for Aegislash, he tilts the metagame towards favoring one playstyle over the other because he's relatively low risk (some type synergy and no Lando-T?) for high reward (eating defensive cores alive and also potentially cleaning offense).
And I don't want to hear Knock Off or Rock Slide dismissed simply for having lesser usage. The fact is that if Landorus cares enough about these things to beat them itself rather than delegating it to team support, the moveslot is probably worth it to the AoA sets punching holes anyway. Landorus-I does certainly have sweep potential, but the job he's chosen for and excels at is punching holes in balanced builds.
People say that a Landorus-I ban would lead to balance shooting up drastically in usage. I only agree since losing the balance eater Landorus is would certainly bring a drastic increase, but only in making the playstyle as common as the current ones. Balance still has a ridiculous number of wallbreakers and attackers to deal with (a lot of what would be left in S gives them problems, even Clefable who I don't support there), but having to account for those and play ridiculously carefully around Landorus who just can't be answered sufficiently makes the playstyle significantly harder to play than anything besides full/passive stall.
He's taken a hit since ban in Gen 5, but I still don't think Landorus-I fits well into a healthy OU metagame yet.
Ahh. The classic "git gud" argument. Pokemon is a prediction game buddy. Just like you say you can predict around knock off to avoid getting crippled, so can your opponent. This also doesn't change the fact that none of the mons you listed can switch in safely on Lando. They're not counters. (Btw, knock off is super effective on Gengar and Lati twins)
Um, where are you getting these stats from? I just looked at all four moveset stat text files for the month of April and in every one of them, Knock Off was used closer to 20%, Focus Blast was around 40%, and Rock Polish wasn't even used on half of all Landorus. So yeah, I don't get how you're making these claims that Knock Off only has 12% usage (which isn't even that uncommon lol), Focus Blast is used less than Knock Off, or Rock Polish is the one set that everyone prepares for.
On that note, please stop using usage as an argument for whether a move is valid or not. Usage stats literally only tell you one thing: how much something is used. They're good for threat lists and that's about it. The fact that you are running around here saying that standard moves like Knock Off and Focus Blast aren't valid moves just because they don't get used all that much demonstrates poor knowledge of Landorus in the OU metagame. These are perfectly good moves, and saying otherwise just because they have lower usage is nothing short of silliness. If you want to start pushing usage stats as a legit argument again, I can easily point you to things like Electivire in DPP OU and Donphan in early XY OU, which were OU by usage despite being mediocre or outright bad in both metagames. Heck, Donphan in early XY OU was arguably the posterchild for the decision to start weighing upper ladder stats more heavily in our tiering lol.
Also, how can you logically argue that giving up Rock Polish for an extra coverage move will cause Landorus to be countered by Pokemon he usually beats? The extra coverage is chosen for the exact reason that it lets him power through Pokemon that would otherwise shut him down. Rock Polish is a great sweeping tool, but it does literally nothing to make him harder to switch into; any Pokemon that risks switching into a Rock Polish and getting KOed the next turn could have just as easily been KOed on the switch regardless of whether or not Landorus had Rock Polish.
On a side note, here's a fun fact: given that its Sheer Force-boosted moves don't take Life Orb recoil, a 4/252/252+ Life Orb Landorus using Sheer Force-boosted moves is kinda like having a Mega Pokemon with 225/229/101 base offenses that doesn't take up a Mega slot. Just let that sink in.
I'd like to add that even if usage was relevant in determining viability, the minimum usage stat for Knock Off is 16% (1825 usage stats). To put this into perspective, that's one in six Landos. We're not talking about some obscure stuff like Endeavor + Aqua jet Keldeo. For a pokemon with about six million different viable moves, Knock Off is common enough and more importantly, viable.
As for the balance/ stall getting too good question: what pokemon in the tier cannot be handled by anything other than Landorus? Even with Lando gone, I feel that we have enough breakers to handle these things. Has anyone else noted something that could be a big problem? (Ignoring the broken check broken argument atm)
Ban this b*tch that's all I have to say
No seriously, this thing is just too much to handle. It literally has all the coverage it needs, hits harder than Edward Newgate, and has multiple sets to deal with its "counters". It's Sheer force set is a wallbreaker like no other; very little can take a hit from it, and less can switch into it. It's base 101 speed may be a bit on the slow side but if it's using a rock Polish set then that's no longer an issue. It also has handy moves.like u turn, knock off and Superpower to help its team get momentum and lure in some normal counters. Overall it's many useful sets pretty much makes it so that when you do see a Lando -I on the other team you're left guessing which set its carrying
No seriously, this thing is just too much to handle. It literally has all the coverage it needs, hits harder than Edward Newgate, and has multiple sets to deal with its "counters". It's Sheer force set is a wallbreaker like no other; very little can take a hit from it, and less can switch into it. It's base 101 speed may be a bit on the slow side but if it's using a rock Polish set then that's no longer an issue. It also has handy moves.like u turn, knock off and Superpower to help its team get momentum and lure in some normal counters. Overall it's many useful sets pretty much makes it so that when you do see a Lando -I on the other team you're left guessing which set its carrying
This is my first post here but i feel i should have a say . Lando I has two full on counters to it, Cresselia and mega latias. That means to be completely safe from any lando I attack, i have to run either mega latias to take up my mega spot, or cresselia, while is flexible, not every team will run cresselia. There are other pokemon that can check lando I, but are then in fear of the appropriate coverage move. spdef Zapdos gets 2hko'd by rock slide, as well as Tornadus-T. Chansey can get hit by knock off, then proceed to get worned down from there . spdef gliscor and lando-t (as well as opposing lando I) are in fear of HP Ice. Im fully aware Lando-I can not run every single move, but in the process of figuring out its moveset you will most likely be losing a mon in the process. I've even seen gravity been used, however it is gimmicky, is still viable in some sense.
Whether or not the moveset is uncommon or gimmicky, it is still viable. Going through the mindset that "oh this set is not common" doesn't represent that the move or moves can not be utilized, as long as it is within reasonability. You cant just switch in your (for example) Torn T without thinking of the possibility of getting hit with a Rock slide.
To wrap up my thoughts, i believe Lando I should be BANNED, however my mindset can be changed after getting regs. But most of us saying Pro-ban want to understand why exactly keeping Lando-I is more necessary than banning it. All im seeing is statements along the lines of "knock is only used 12% so ill be safe switching in my chansey". No that isn't optimal. Anyone can run knock off if they feel that they can catch the chansey off guard, then you are putting yourself in a losing position, because your "counter" is suddenly hindered. Lando is an extremely effective mon that CAN PREFORM MANY ROLES AND MOVESETS EFFECTIVELY. Rock polish scares HO teams, Calm mind can break down stall as well balance, and all out attacking sets can destroy balance as well.
Whether or not the moveset is uncommon or gimmicky, it is still viable. Going through the mindset that "oh this set is not common" doesn't represent that the move or moves can not be utilized, as long as it is within reasonability. You cant just switch in your (for example) Torn T without thinking of the possibility of getting hit with a Rock slide.
To wrap up my thoughts, i believe Lando I should be BANNED, however my mindset can be changed after getting regs. But most of us saying Pro-ban want to understand why exactly keeping Lando-I is more necessary than banning it. All im seeing is statements along the lines of "knock is only used 12% so ill be safe switching in my chansey". No that isn't optimal. Anyone can run knock off if they feel that they can catch the chansey off guard, then you are putting yourself in a losing position, because your "counter" is suddenly hindered. Lando is an extremely effective mon that CAN PREFORM MANY ROLES AND MOVESETS EFFECTIVELY. Rock polish scares HO teams, Calm mind can break down stall as well balance, and all out attacking sets can destroy balance as well.
Except the fact that you are using something as unique as Choice Scarf Ice Beam Latios shows you just how hard it is to fit a legit counter to Landorus-I on a team without being weak to something like Mega-Metagross or Tyranitar. Some Landorus-I carry U-turn, meaning that even "counters" like Latias or Celebi are easily trapped by Tyranitar, essentially, as Tesung put it, so powerful with little to no drawbacks.
Can we just please, before we go 40 pages in still discussing it.
THE ONLY 100% COUNTERS TOO LANDORUS-I ARE: MEGA LATIAS & CRESSELIA
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 140-166 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cresselia OHKOs back if it gets the roll, but Landorus-I still can't do anything too it.
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Mega Latias: 101-122 (27.7 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
Mega Latias will then either damage it heavily with an offensive move, or set up on with CM and kill it with Stored power, it depends on what Landorus-I wants to do.
Here are a list of checks and how Landorus-I beats them:
Tornadous-A
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Specially defensive Skarmory
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 413-486 (123.6 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (gravity)
Chansey
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 146-172 (22.7 - 26.7%) -- 29.7% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 309-367 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO (w/o Eviolite)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Gengar
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 382-452 (147.4 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 333-393 (128.5 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lati@s
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-175 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-312 (88.6 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 239-283 (74.9 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Specially defensive Zapdos
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 255-302 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mandibuzz
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 212-251 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (gravity) (SR are also a thing)
Gyarados
-1 0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 179-213 (45.5 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Gliscor
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 291-343 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
There are two counters to Landorus-I, everybody knows this. Please spend your time on something else, this is fact. You're better of using another argument, good luck.
THE ONLY 100% COUNTERS TOO LANDORUS-I ARE: MEGA LATIAS & CRESSELIA
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 140-166 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cresselia OHKOs back if it gets the roll, but Landorus-I still can't do anything too it.
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Mega Latias: 101-122 (27.7 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
Mega Latias will then either damage it heavily with an offensive move, or set up on with CM and kill it with Stored power, it depends on what Landorus-I wants to do.
Here are a list of checks and how Landorus-I beats them:
Tornadous-A
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Specially defensive Skarmory
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 413-486 (123.6 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (gravity)
Chansey
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 146-172 (22.7 - 26.7%) -- 29.7% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 309-367 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO (w/o Eviolite)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Gengar
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 382-452 (147.4 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 333-393 (128.5 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lati@s
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-175 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-312 (88.6 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 239-283 (74.9 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Specially defensive Zapdos
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 255-302 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mandibuzz
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 212-251 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (gravity) (SR are also a thing)
Gyarados
-1 0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 179-213 (45.5 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Gliscor
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 291-343 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
There are two counters to Landorus-I, everybody knows this. Please spend your time on something else, this is fact. You're better of using another argument, good luck.
I don't agree with banning Lando-I. Sure it can come in and usually get a kill, but it gets outsped by a lot of pokemon that can OHKO it back. Lando-I is not the only pokemon in the tier that can come in and get a kill. Just because it has a limited amount of counters does not make it worthy of a ban. BW Hydreigon had no counters yet it remained in OU. And it can always be OHKO'd by x4 Ice Shard from a Weavile or Mamoswine. Just give it time and people will adapt to this thing. Please don't ban.
If you're going to use calcs can we please put them in hide tags? I think they're always obnoxious to prove a point and I don't think using the argument x4 ice attacks can KO a ground / flying type legitimizes a point regardless of what your stance on the suspect of question is. They don't account half the realistic scenarios to begin with such as cores and meta trends. Thanks.
You realize that the meta HAS adapted and this is what we're left with? People have been calling for this ban since before the XY Aegi ban, so I would say that we have given the meta ample time to adapt to Landorus.
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