np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle

[Beta.]

I never used Landorus-I before, as I always prefer Landorus-therian because of the mon's playstyle, so I can't comment on using it myself. As for facing against it, I find that Lando-I really prevents a pretty common number of OU mons from being usable. Just seeing it on the team preview limits many mons. Unless you mega Latias, cress, or can predict when that thing will come in, when and if it does, it can add pressure to almost any wall.

The other main problem I find with Lando-I is just the number of possibilities it can try to fuck you over. while Clefairy's image might be ironic, the truth of this picture is really that any one of these moves can be used. You really have to be ready to counter every possibile move it may have. good luck murdering this motherfucker when it has a rock polish up, aswell. Maybe an ice shard may kill it.

I say Ban Lando-I. Maybe playing on the ladder will change my opinion. Maybe.

 

[ArchPhantom]

Landorus, in my honest opinion, is what's what's holding the meta back. The breaking power it has is unfair. This clicked to me a long ass time ago when I was using only RP Lando builds: it literally was get up rocks ->hit Latias once or pursuit trap-> sweep. It was that easy, and that my friends, is why I have a problem with Landorus. The ease in which it is able to run through even the most solid of teams is what warrants it a ban. That's just in regards to the RP set. Don't get me started on the disgusting 4 attacks set that has what, one switch in? Oh and CM which blows back even the best stall teams. Another issue is that Landorus can just come in and click Earth Power, click it for free; it doesn't even have to predict because the things that are immune to it either get Pursuit Trapped (Latis) or just die the next turn to a Sludge Wave/Focus Blast/Rock Slide (Skarm, Rotom, SDef Tflame) lmao. If the Landorus user does predict however, then rest in pieces fren. It hits way too hard and it beats way too much; what it can't beat or what it struggles to beat, is left to its 5 teammates to answer! *its 5 teammates to answer...its 5 teammates to answer* < those were echoes. Anyways, if you couldn't tell, I'll be doing humanity a favor by voting ban on this bih. Reqs, here I come.

 

[SketchUp]

I don't agree with banning Lando-I. Sure it can come in and usually get a kill, but it gets outsped by a lot of pokemon that can OHKO it back. Lando-I is not the only pokemon in the tier that can come in and get a kill. Just because it has a limited amount of counters does not make it worthy of a ban. BW Hydreigon had no counters yet it remained in OU. And it can always be OHKO'd by x4 Ice Shard from a Weavile or Mamoswine. Just give it time and people will adapt to this thing. Please don't ban.

People have been adapting to Landorus but the problem is that Landorus has many good coverage moves that it can adapt to the metagame trends. When SpD Gliscor became popular, Landorus adapted by running HP Ice and now Rock Slide is getting some usage to beat Talonflame, Tornadus-T and Zapdos.
The big difference between Landorus and other wallbreakers like Kyurem-Black is that Landorus is much harder to wear down. It takes no Life Orb recoil from his moves (except HP Ice, Knock Off and U-Turn) it isn't weak to rocks, it is immune to spikes and it can't get paralyzed. Also, having 2 immunities to electric and ground means you can find opportunities to switch in and with decent 90/90/80 (don't know exactly) bulk it can easily take some neutral hits.

 

[firehusky]

Lol somehow OU council decided to retest aegislash before suspecting lando :O

Anyways I think lando should really be banned for a couple of reasons: it has really good coverage, limited counters, and it can beat all playstyles with the appropriate boosting move.

First of all, lando has amazing coverage. The only move you know for sure it's carrying is earth power. It has all sorts of moves it can run to screw its checks, such as rock slide for talonflame and specially defensive mega charizard y, knock off for latios, hp ice for gliscor, sludge wave for tangrowth, etc. This usually means you need to scout its moves which sometimes requires you to sack a mon just to figure out its coverage.

Secondly, lando has really limited counters. The only surefire ones are cresselia and mega latias. Mons like regular latias and chansey are all easily taken care of with a pursuit trapper such as choice band tyranitar. You almost always need at least like 2 or 3 checks to lando depending on its moves, such as gengar if its doesn't have knock off or psychic, or gyarados if it doesn't have rock slide.

Finally, lando can beat almost every playstyle with the proper boosting move. It has a field day against offense with rock polish as it outspeeds everything and just OHKOs everything. Against balanced teams, there are few good switchins to it. With a calm mind set, it can easily rack up a few CMs and then just demolish everything.

Yeah please ban lando its borked af.

 

[Snowy]

Kind of sick and tired of seeing the same invalid arguments of "super effective priority can handle it", "Knock Off and other moves have low usage" and "predict around it". Firstly, the fact that you would need to bring a check that has access to super effective priority to check it is just a great way to highlight the preparations need to take for this monster. Secondly, just because a certain move has a lower usage rate compared to its other moves (which isn't even that low to begin with) doesn't mean people won't bring it, and if you are unprepared for these moves you will get fucked up. Moveset trends also tend to change as the meta attempts to adapt to mons like this, meaning that if gengar and lati@s twins become the come switch in or handle to landorus, the move Knock Off might become a lot more popular. Finally, the argument of predicting around your opponent is an absolute shit one. By the time you've safely switched into your check, how much unessary damage has the rest of your team taken? A shit ton is the answer, especially from this monster. The fact that you are unable to safely transision into your COUNTER against this mon, is just proof of how broken it is.

 

[Gimmick]

I haven't yet played on the Suspect ladder, but I imagine it's heaven. Landorus is a huge force in the metagame for many reasons, but I think I'll elaborate on two: versatility and effectiveness. At first glance, Landorus has a really odd movepool with coverage like poison, dark, psychic, 70% accurate fighting, and then Hidden Power. However, its coverage complements Earth Power absurdly well, with Sludge Wave slaughtering the grass types (and Togekiss), Knock Off damaging the Latis, HP Ice sniping the flying types, Focus Blast 2HKOing Rotom-W and Skarm, Psychic hitting team-specific threats like M-Venu, and Rock Slide destroying "checks" like AV Tornadus-T, Charizard Y, and SDef Talonflame. It also gets two very good set-up moves in Rock Polish and Calm Mind as well as utility in Stealth Rock and U-turn. Guessing Landorus-I's coverage is only one part of the uphill battle vs this threat. Its massive power along with its odd-yet-amazing coverage and fantastic versatility make it a huge problem for pretty much every playstyle in the tier. CM and Knock Off variants have field days with Stall, Rock Polish decimates offense, and 4 Attacks LO variants make balance obsolete. Because of its power, the Rock Polish set requires very little support to sweep since teams can hardly handle Modest Sheer Force Life Orb STAB Earth Power, let alone its powerful coverage moves. Landorus is one of the most splashable mons simply because of the offensive pressure it applies to every single playstyle. Its versatility and effectiveness combined with its absurd power (there's more of course) is enough for me to vote for a ban. A Pokemon as rewarding as Landorus is simply unhealthy for the game. I haven't seen what the suspect ladder meta is yet, but I'd be disappointed if the voters left it in OU.

edit: damnit firehusky i said the same things

 

[Toljik]

If we don't ban Landorus, it's going to be a cat-and-mouse game between it and the rest of OU until the gen is over. Landorus can adapt to anything that adapts to Landorus. For instance

calc

Lando-I is almost the only reason why I use sp.def Zapdos... I always have to run a dedicated ""counter"" to it and it's annoying, especially considering that my playstyle of choice is Balance.

For me it's gonna be a straight BAN!

0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 177-211 (46 - 54.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[thesecondbest]

The thing with Landorus is that IT WILL ALWAYS GET A KO. It's pretty much guaranteed. About being outsped, against offence, Rock Polish sweeps teams with so little effort that it's actually disgusting. Also, wow. It gets OHKOed by Ice Shard. Nice. Considering that not every team has a Weavile or Mamoswine means that's not a valid excuse, unless you WANT to run one of those on every team. Weavile has become known as the prime Lando-I handler. Frankly, if it wasn't because of Landorus, Weavile would probably be a lot lower on the rankings. Using the "OHKOed by Ice Shard" excuse is a terrible reason against banning Landorus. Pokemon like Mega Salamence had a weakness to Ice Shard, but that was still unbelievably broken.
Also, the metagame has adapted to it. Every single team has to have something that beats it. It's ridiculous. Not to mention that it has literally so many options that even with a team that MIGHT handle a certain set, it just loses to another.

These are terrible arguments, really...
First off I agree that quad weak to ice isnt a reason to ban, but just because weavile is used doesnt mean lando is broken. It beats torn-t as well, the latis, and is A- in the viability ranks. It's not like p2 vs mence and ninja, where that was literally the only reason to use it
It doesnt always get a ko why dont you have calcs. lets look at s and a+ rank mons..
Massive Wall of Calcs Incoming

Hide

for altaria if they are offensive hp ice kills non mega, sludge wave kills mega. So it's a 50-50 if you have both moves.
clefable doesnt belong in s lol, but you 2hko with sludge
keldeo dies to psychic but can live earth power and easily kos back. plus it's faster.
meta is faster after mega and easily kos with ice punch, but if you outspeed you kill
av azu destroys you, plus aj really hurts, killing after rocks if banded
bisharp you beat, sucker does 60+ if lo
char wont mega if x, then megas and destroys you. char y also beats you. rock slide is the only chance vs these guys
diance you beat, but moonblast may kill after rocks
chomp doesnt quite kill but you need hp ice to beat it
gengar doesnt quite kill but you need knock off or psychic to beat it
gyarados eats you, rock slide doesnt kill. focus blast kills if they have mega'd though
heatran you beat
lando-t you need hp ice to beat otherwise edge 2hkos
lopunny eats you with ice punch, and fake + ice punch usually kills after rocks. earth power doesnt even kill so you need psychic or focus blast even if you get the roll
latios eats you but dies to knock off after rocks
manaphy eats you
you beat sableye
you beat scizor but +2 bp does over 2/3
you need rock slide for tflame and brave bird can kill after rocks
thundurus eats you
torn-t eats you (cant switch in if you have rock slide but outspeeds and can take one without rocks. plus rock polish essentially never runs rock slide)

How much are you really beating out of those? Lando is too slow for the current meta, has 4mss, and isn't as nukish as you all say it is. Sure, it has few counters, but no counters does not mean broken. There are more examples than bw hydreigon btw lol. kyu-b, mega meta, etc.
like I said I still haven't decided but arguments on both sides are just so stupid. Still leaning no ban, calcs dont lie tbh

 

[SparksBlade]

Regarding the Weavile/Mamo+Shard and random Ice Beam arguments

• you just CANNOT say that Weavile Mamo etc. are used on every team, for the sole reason that they dont fit every playstyle or every available slot in a team. When you bring these up, you're trying to force these mons on every team, and that ends with the fact that since Lando-I forces some mons on every team, it's uncompetitive for the meta.
• random Ice moves are also not justification for Lando-I to stay in OU. HP Ice Celebi isn't convincing anyone that Lando-I is fine in the meta. Other mons that now run ice coverage(and previously didnt) do so just for that one brown floating genie. They were completely fine without there ice coverage and will be fine if only this mon is banned.

Other things that pop up are usage stats and such, and i'll be honest with you, nobody gives a shit about the low usage of Knock Off cos it just means "oooohh look only one out of 5 Lando-I use Knock Off, that means mostly my Latios is a safe switch-in against Lando" no it's not and you're borked if you think along that line. Arguments only amount to something if they're based of practicality rather than mere numbers.

 

[Sun King]

How much are you really beating out of those? Lando is too slow for the current meta, has 4mss, and isn't as nukish as you all say it is. Sure, it has few counters, but no counters does not mean broken. There are more examples than bw hydreigon btw lol. kyu-b, mega meta, etc.
like I said I still haven't decided but arguments on both sides are just so stupid. Still leaning no ban, calcs dont lie tbh

But it's absolutely NOT too slow for the current meta. It's too slow for Offense ONLY if you aren't running RP. For Balance and Stall, the speed tiers are a lot lower, so its CM and AoA sets can really shine. You're absolutely right that no counters doesn't mean broken, but no counters plus the versatility to beat three major play styles (obv. depending on your set) DOES mean broken. I cannot see how leaving Landorus in OU is healthy for our metagame at all. The fact that teams are either "5 slots plus Landorus counter" or "Lose to Landorus" says enough about it.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

But it's absolutely NOT too slow for the current meta. It's too slow for Offense ONLY if you aren't running RP. For Balance and Stall, the speed tiers are a lot lower, so its CM and AoA sets can really shine. You're absolutely right that no counters doesn't mean broken, but no counters plus the versatility to beat three major play styles (obv. depending on your set) DOES mean broken. I cannot see how leaving Landorus in OU is healthy for our metagame at all. The fact that teams are either "5 slots plus Landorus counter" or "Lose to Landorus" says enough about it.

First you say that Landorus has no counters, then you say that every team needs to run a Landorus counter. Pick one of the two.

That said, Landorus is really strong as it always has been. We've been through the whole suspect process once already and the arguments are pretty much the same as they were before. RP Landorus + ScarfTar is good, add Keldeo and it's even better. I don't really see this discussion going much of anywhere because we all know Landorus is good, but the question is if it's too good. It's easy to argue that it has no true counters except for Mega Latias although that ultimately comes down to its coverage moves. It can't run them all. If you try to argue against a ban you have to point out its flaws which makes it look like you're saying it's bad and then nobody will take you seriously. So ultimately my guess would be that the result would be a ban just because we've been through this already and we know what happened last time.

 

[Sun King]

First you say that Landorus has no counters, then you say that every team needs to run a Landorus counter. Pick one of the two.

That said, Landorus is really strong as it always has been. We've been through the whole suspect process once already and the arguments are pretty much the same as they were before. RP Landorus + ScarfTar is good, add Keldeo and it's even better. I don't really see this discussion going much of anywhere because we all know Landorus is good, but the question is if it's too good. It's easy to argue that it has no true counters except for Mega Latias although that ultimately comes down to its coverage moves. It can't run them all. If you try to argue against a ban you have to point out its flaws which makes it look like you're saying it's bad and then nobody will take you seriously. So ultimately my guess would be that the result would be a ban just because we've been through this already and we know what happened last time.

Was there a point to your nitpicking, or are you just trying to flex unnecessary muscles?

I think it's pretty obvious what I meant, and the fact that you called me out and then posted your own pro-ban argument really doesn't make any sense. Hope you sleep better knowing that you called me out on a minor detail though.

 

[SparksBlade]

i'll take the so called list of answers to lando, and answer them in the quote as well cos it's easier

for altaria if they are offensive hp ice kills non mega, sludge wave kills mega. So it's a 50-50 if you have both moves. regardless of what move Lando-I uses, you'll take at least 50% on your (Mega) Altaria. Do calc HP Ice on Mega and Sludge on non-mega
clefable doesnt belong in s lol, but you 2hko with sludge pls go check the rankings, or maybe you mean it doesnt deserve s. Doesn't matter here
keldeo dies to psychic but can live earth power and easily kos back. plus it's faster. revenge killer, can't switch in, only fits on offensive teams
meta is faster after mega and easily kos with ice punch, but if you outspeed you kill revenge killer, can't switch in, can't even revenge unless it has mega'd already, fits only on offensive teams
av azu destroys you, plus aj really hurts, killing after rocks if banded Azu is hit reasonably hard with all the attacks except HP Ice(knock off means no vest), if you switch in your banded azu on an attack i laugh at you, apparently you're saying it takes hits like AV and hits like band
bisharp you beat, sucker does 60+ if lo a 50/50 if you say so, nowhere near an answer, just something that MIGHT beat it
char wont mega if x, then megas and destroys you. char y also beats you. rock slide is the only chance vs these guys i dont even know what you're saying here, but both are heavily dented by rocks, outsped, and then either dented heavily again or outright ko'd, and rock slide isn't uncommon
diance you beat, but moonblast may kill after rocks again, can't switch in, fits more so on offense
chomp doesnt quite kill but you need hp ice to beat it not like Lando ever uses HP-Ice, also no chomp switches in
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 261-308 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKOgengar doesnt quite kill but you need knock off or psychic to beat it again, a that Lando MIGHT be carrying, or it can just switch out, while Gengar only comes in on EP/Focus/revenge kill
gyarados eats you, rock slide doesnt kill. focus blast kills if they have mega'd though again you're mixing up scenarios, a previous post that had lots of calcs showed that gyara is 2hko's by rock slide after Stealth Rock damage
heatran you beat sure do
lando-t you need hp ice to beat otherwise edge 2hkos if Lando doesnt have HP Ice it prolly has no reason to stay in
lopunny eats you with ice punch, and fake + ice punch usually kills after rocks. earth power doesnt even kill so you need psychic or focus blast even if you get the roll cant switch in again, fits on offense
latios eats you but dies to knock off after rocks needs to predict right to come in, Lando just switches out
manaphy eats you be more specific cmon, it can't come in at all, and takes chunks if Lando stays in and attacks
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 230-270 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryyou beat sableye sure do
you beat scizor but +2 bp does over 2/3 so i beat it while it hurts me? fair trade
you need rock slide for tflame and brave bird can kill after rocks again a move that's not uncommon, talon also risks knock off
thundurus eats you sigh, but it only comes in on nice predicts or after a revenge kill
torn-t eats you (cant switch in if you have rock slide but outspeeds and can take one without rocks. plus rock polish essentially never runs rock slide) you yourself explain here why torn-t isn't that safe an answer for Lando-I

also, almost ALL of these only fit on offense, and iirc 90% of these have a horrid time coming in on an attack. certainly not a list of decent answers.

edit:

it will always get a ko

cmon guys this was just a statement in frustration are you really gonna focus on this rather than the rest of the para

 

[Rustyy]

These are terrible arguments, really...
First off I agree that quad weak to ice isnt a reason to ban, but just because weavile is used doesnt mean lando is broken. It beats torn-t as well, the latis, and is A- in the viability ranks. It's not like p2 vs mence and ninja, where that was literally the only reason to use it
It doesnt always get a ko why dont you have calcs. lets look at s and a+ rank mons..
Massive Wall of Calcs Incoming

Hide

for altaria if they are offensive hp ice kills non mega, sludge wave kills mega. So it's a 50-50 if you have both moves.
clefable doesnt belong in s lol, but you 2hko with sludge
keldeo dies to psychic but can live earth power and easily kos back. plus it's faster.
meta is faster after mega and easily kos with ice punch, but if you outspeed you kill
av azu destroys you, plus aj really hurts, killing after rocks if banded
bisharp you beat, sucker does 60+ if lo
char wont mega if x, then megas and destroys you. char y also beats you. rock slide is the only chance vs these guys
diance you beat, but moonblast may kill after rocks
chomp doesnt quite kill but you need hp ice to beat it
gengar doesnt quite kill but you need knock off or psychic to beat it
gyarados eats you, rock slide doesnt kill. focus blast kills if they have mega'd though
heatran you beat
lando-t you need hp ice to beat otherwise edge 2hkos
lopunny eats you with ice punch, and fake + ice punch usually kills after rocks. earth power doesnt even kill so you need psychic or focus blast even if you get the roll
latios eats you but dies to knock off after rocks
manaphy eats you
you beat sableye
you beat scizor but +2 bp does over 2/3
you need rock slide for tflame and brave bird can kill after rocks
thundurus eats you
torn-t eats you (cant switch in if you have rock slide but outspeeds and can take one without rocks. plus rock polish essentially never runs rock slide)

How much are you really beating out of those? Lando is too slow for the current meta, has 4mss, and isn't as nukish as you all say it is. Sure, it has few counters, but no counters does not mean broken. There are more examples than bw hydreigon btw lol. kyu-b, mega meta, etc.
like I said I still haven't decided but arguments on both sides are just so stupid. Still leaning no ban, calcs dont lie tbh

Exactly. Its hard to switch in but it still loses to a lot of mons.

The thing with Landorus is that IT WILL ALWAYS GET A KO. It's pretty much guaranteed. About being outsped, against offence, Rock Polish sweeps teams with so little effort that it's actually disgusting. Also, wow. It gets OHKOed by Ice Shard. Nice. Considering that not every team has a Weavile or Mamoswine means that's not a valid excuse, unless you WANT to run one of those on every team. Weavile has become known as the prime Lando-I handler. Frankly, if it wasn't because of Landorus, Weavile would probably be a lot lower on the rankings. Using the "OHKOed by Ice Shard" excuse is a terrible reason against banning Landorus. Pokemon like Mega Salamence had a weakness to Ice Shard, but that was still unbelievably broken.
Also, the metagame has adapted to it. Every single team has to have something that beats it. It's ridiculous. Not to mention that it has literally so many options that even with a team that MIGHT handle a certain set, it just loses to another.

E: Sun King why

It doesn't always get kills tho. You can easily predict an earth power and switch in to a flying type'levitate and threaten it out. Just get good at predicting instead of banning something that you lose to, plain and simple. Mega Voir has the same amount of counters but suffers from being outsped and OHKO'd by faster mons. Mega Voir isn't being suspected tho. And I'm pretty sure being OHKO'd by Ice Shard is a valid arguement because Landorus doesn't have any priority to work with. What good is a RP set when it gets KO'd by priority. Don't even compare this thing to Mega Salamence because that's just silly and Salamence wasn't even OHKO'd by Ice Shard anyway. And you don't bring a Weavile just to beat this "overcentralising threat." Weavile has many uses not just dealing with Lando.

 

[SparksBlade]

It doesn't always get kills tho. You can easily predict an earth power and switch in to a flying type'levitate and threaten it out. Just get good at predicting instead of banning something that you lose to, plain and simple. Mega Voir has the same amount of counters but suffers from being outsped and OHKO'd by faster mons. Mega Voir isn't being suspected tho. And I'm pretty sure being OHKO'd by Ice Shard is a valid arguement because Landorus doesn't have any priority to work with. What good is a RP set when it gets KO'd by priority. Don't even compare this thing to Mega Salamence because that's just silly and Salamence wasn't even OHKO'd by Ice Shard anyway. And you don't bring a Weavile just to beat this "overcentralising threat." Weavile has many uses not just dealing with Lando.

here's a fun fact: your opponent can predict too.
git gud is never a satisfactory argument
make a case for mega voir and it might work, but not here, cos as listed in OP

2) no discussion on other potential suspects;

being ohko'd by ice shard doesn't matter cos when you look at the users of said moves, they aren't just so splashable on every playstyle
rp set is good cos it runs through most offense
comparison to mence is meh, but it was just for the quad-ice weakness i believe, just to point out that quad ice weakness isn't a big factor
weavile only ever fits on offensive builds

 

[fyourblog]

Kind of sick and tired of seeing the same invalid arguments of "super effective priority can handle it", "Knock Off and other moves have low usage" and "predict around it". Firstly, the fact that you would need to bring a check that has access to super effective priority to check it is just a great way to highlight the preparations need to take for this monster. Secondly, just because a certain move has a lower usage rate compared to its other moves (which isn't even that low to begin with) doesn't mean people won't bring it, and if you are unprepared for these moves you will get fucked up. Moveset trends also tend to change as the meta attempts to adapt to mons like this, meaning that if gengar and lati@s twins become the come switch in or handle to landorus, the move Knock Off might become a lot more popular. Finally, the argument of predicting around your opponent is an absolute shit one. By the time you've safely switched into your check, how much unessary damage has the rest of your team taken? A shit ton is the answer, especially from this monster. The fact that you are unable to safely transision into your COUNTER against this mon, is just proof of how broken it is.

You call the fact that knock off has low usage an invalid argument yet you provide no evidence for yourself. Just because the meta attempts to adapt to mons like this doesn't mean it will. 12.4% is extremely low. If your lando is running Knock Off, it means its probably losing to half the pokes it normally can beat as well. If we take your "the meta adapts" argument at face value, then we must use it in the opposite as well, right?

So if Lando starts running Knock Off, and disregards Rock Polish, Sludge Wave, HP Ice, or some other coverage move, it starts to lose to other pokes that can beat its coverage. That means the meta will adapt to Knock Off Lando-I, start using mons that can newly counter this Knock-Off Lando-I variant, and it will again have just as many counters as it does now.

So I really am not seeing the logic in just dismissing usage stats. You provide no evidence for your "the meta adapts" argument. In fact, I could argue that knock off Lando has become much less common since the start of this meta.

 

[Eraxxer]

For the first time in a suspect, I actually think Lando-I doesn't deserve to be banned. It's obviously very good and is one of if not the best thing in OU - noone could deny that - but it doesn't seem too good to be broken. It's never really been the biggest problem while facing it - compared to Greninja, Blaziken and friends, Lando-I isn't tearing apart the meta or anything (that is of course down to opinion). I'll come back and post later after I've played around in the suspect test meta.

 

[shiloh]

You call the fact that knock off has low usage an invalid argument yet you provide no evidence for yourself. Just because the meta attempts to adapt to mons like this doesn't mean it will. 12.4% is extremely low. If your lando is running Knock Off, it means its probably losing to half the pokes it normally can beat as well. If we take your "the meta adapts" argument at face value, then we must use it in the opposite as well, right?

So if Lando starts running Knock Off, and disregards Rock Polish, Sludge Wave, HP Ice, or some other coverage move, it starts to lose to other pokes that can beat its coverage. That means the meta will adapt to Knock Off Lando-I, start using mons that can newly counter this Knock-Off Lando-I variant, and it will again have just as many counters as it does now.

So I really am not seeing the logic in just dismissing usage stats. You provide no evidence for your "the meta adapts" argument. In fact, I could argue that knock off Lando has become much less common since the start of this meta.

I still don't get why you adamantly refuse to see how usage =/= viability. The fact that you say if Lando is running Knock Off it will losing to something, if it isn't running Knock Off it loses to a lot as well. Knock Off is its only reliable way to deal with Lati@s, Chansey, and Cress (to some extent). You can't just say that running a certain move is bad if it will add to removing its Checks and Counters. The fact that Landorus can run all of these options is the reason it is broken. Sure Knock Off may not be common right now, but the fact that it might have it makes people wary of switching their Lati@s in, and instead may scout for it which adds chip damage to the rest of their team. Landorus is broken due to the fact it is close to impossible to tell what coverage it is running, from Team Preview which forces people to scout for it.

 

[Snowy]

It doesn't always get kills tho. You can easily predict an earth power and switch in to a flying type'levitate and threaten it out. Just get good at predicting instead of banning something that you lose to, plain and simple. Mega Voir has the same amount of counters but suffers from being outsped and OHKO'd by faster mons. Mega Voir isn't being suspected tho. And I'm pretty sure being OHKO'd by Ice Shard is a valid arguement because Landorus doesn't have any priority to work with. What good is a RP set when it gets KO'd by priority. Don't even compare this thing to Mega Salamence because that's just silly and Salamence wasn't even OHKO'd by Ice Shard anyway. And you don't bring a Weavile just to beat this "overcentralising threat." Weavile has many uses not just dealing with Lando.

Sigh, as I have said before the "predict around it" argument is completely shit, as your opponent also has the ability to predict your switches and with the monstrous damage it can deal even from a neutral or resist hit, your opponent loses a lot less than you do by predicting your switches. Comparing it to Mega Voir is redundant as they hold different typing and offensive capabilities (Lando's are easily better, despite not having stupidly powerful hyper voice) due to coverage and set up moves (Lando has access to more moves, making it unpredictable and hard to switch into). Using priority as a means to check it is not always the case, as a weavile or another priority user might not fit into your team due to synergy issues. Being force to run one play style or disrupt team synergy is a great way to highlight how broken you are.

You call the fact that knock off has low usage an invalid argument yet you provide no evidence for yourself. Just because the meta attempts to adapt to mons like this doesn't mean it will. 12.4% is extremely low. If your lando is running Knock Off, it means its probably losing to half the pokes it normally can beat as well. If we take your "the meta adapts" argument at face value, then we must use it in the opposite as well, right?

So if Lando starts running Knock Off, and disregards Rock Polish, Sludge Wave, HP Ice, or some other coverage move, it starts to lose to other pokes that can beat its coverage. That means the meta will adapt to Knock Off Lando-I, start using mons that can newly counter this Knock-Off Lando-I variant, and it will again have just as many counters as it does now.

So I really am not seeing the logic in just dismissing usage stats. You provide no evidence for your "the meta adapts" argument. In fact, I could argue that knock off Lando has become much less common since the start of this meta.

I don't know if you've realised, but the threats change before the checks change. Meaning that Lando will always have a head start in the adapting department, as its the one setting the trends, not the other way around. Your also forgetting that if a mons running a certain set, it's usually because its other 5 team mates can handle what it can't.

 

[PresidentBubblebeam]

Oh boy, have I been waiting for this one! Seriously Lando's gotta go. Sheer Force + Life Orb is powerful enough as it is, but Lando's a special case who's able to muscle past it's common switch ins with moves like knock off and rock slide. There's also the fact you can use it to beat any play style, as it gets access to rock polish and calm mind. Now I haven't played on the ladder yet, and I'll try to keep an open mind going into this suspect, but for the time being I'm heavily leaning towards BAN.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

There are many valid arguments against keeping Landorus-I unbanned. For example you can say it's slow, and easily revenge killed. You can say its easy to check. You can say it very prepared for, most teams will have a couple of checks. But you can't say it's easily countered, killed by ice shard, "it doesn't carry X or Y move" or "just predict around it". These arguments are bad and easily disproven, refrain from using them

 

[fyourblog]

Ahh. The classic "git gud" argument. Pokemon is a prediction game buddy. Just like you say you can predict around knock off to avoid getting crippled, so can your opponent. This also doesn't change the fact that none of the mons you listed can switch in safely on Lando. They're not counters. (Btw, knock off is super effective on Gengar and Lati twins)

There's a big difference between the git gud argument and the don't give me your cherrypicked, anecdotal evidence of a player being an idiot argument. My argument is the latter. OP argued that Lando-I doesn't need to carry Knock Off, it just needs Knock Off support from another poke to beat the Lando-I counters. Okay, sure. But people aren't going to be Keeping Latis, Chansey, Cress, etc on Bisharps, Torn-Ts, etc. It's a bad argument. He expects people not to play smart, and that's his reasoning as to why Lando-I is "too strong". It's bad reasoning.

Um, where are you getting these stats from? I just looked at all four moveset stat text files for the month of April and in every one of them, Knock Off was used closer to 20%, Focus Blast was around 40%, and Rock Polish wasn't even used on half of all Landorus. So yeah, I don't get how you're making these claims that Knock Off only has 12% usage (which isn't even that uncommon lol), Focus Blast is used less than Knock Off, or Rock Polish is the one set that everyone prepares for.

On that note, please stop using usage as an argument for whether a move is valid or not. Usage stats literally only tell you one thing: how much something is used. They're good for threat lists and that's about it. The fact that you are running around here saying that standard moves like Knock Off and Focus Blast aren't valid moves just because they don't get used all that much demonstrates poor knowledge of Landorus in the OU metagame. These are perfectly good moves, and saying otherwise just because they have lower usage is nothing short of silliness. If you want to start pushing usage stats as a legit argument again, I can easily point you to things like Electivire in DPP OU and Donphan in early XY OU, which were OU by usage despite being mediocre or outright bad in both metagames. Heck, Donphan in early XY OU was arguably the posterchild for the decision to start weighing upper ladder stats more heavily in our tiering lol.

Also, how can you logically argue that giving up Rock Polish for an extra coverage move will cause Landorus to be countered by Pokemon he usually beats? The extra coverage is chosen for the exact reason that it lets him power through Pokemon that would otherwise shut him down. Rock Polish is a great sweeping tool, but it does literally nothing to make him harder to switch into; any Pokemon that risks switching into a Rock Polish and getting KOed the next turn could have just as easily been KOed on the switch regardless of whether or not Landorus had Rock Polish.

On a side note, here's a fun fact: given that its Sheer Force-boosted moves don't take Life Orb recoil, a 4/252/252+ Life Orb Landorus using Sheer Force-boosted moves is kinda like having a Mega Pokemon with 225/229/101 base offenses that doesn't take up a Mega slot. Just let that sink in.

From here:

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-04/moveset/oususpecttest-1695.txt

| Earth Power 98.966% | | Sludge Wave 70.583% | | Hidden Power Ice 66.481% | | Rock Polish 42.541% | | Psychic 31.134% | | Focus Blast 29.494% | | Stealth Rock 23.829% | | Knock Off 12.476% | | Rock Slide 10.079% | | Other 14.416% | +-------------------

I made a mistake, FB is actually at 29%. But it still less than 1/3rd of Lando-Is.

You're right, RP isn't used on half the Lando-Is, but it is also the 4th most used move in the game. Also I won't stop using usage as an argument, the fact that people deny it and say it's only useful in how much something is used is RIDICULOUS. If a move isn't being used as much as another one, that is a strong indicator of how viable it is in the meta. It is the only SOLID evidence that STATISTICALLY shows viability. I am not arguing that usage=viablity, as so many people think I have. In fact, if you read any of my posts, I actually agree and say they don't equal each other. But usage is the STRONGEST INDICATOR of viability that we can see in STATISTICAL EVIDENCE. There is literally no other stronger form of evidence in defining viability. If people thought Knock Off was viable in this meta, it would at least be at 33-35%. Absolutely ridiculous that people are arguing that 12.5% of Lando's that carry Knock Off are a threat to the meta. Lando's carrying KO and giving up RP means they lose to a million other checks that they would rather not lose to. It makes Lando-I an inefficient late game sweeper-- and that's the main reason he's S-ranked.

 

[SparksBlade]

You call the fact that knock off has low usage an invalid argument yet you provide no evidence for yourself. Just because the meta attempts to adapt to mons like this doesn't mean it will. 12.4% is extremely low. If your lando is running Knock Off, it means its probably losing to half the pokes it normally can beat as well. If we take your "the meta adapts" argument at face value, then we must use it in the opposite as well, right?

So if Lando starts running Knock Off, and disregards Rock Polish, Sludge Wave, HP Ice, or some other coverage move, it starts to lose to other pokes that can beat its coverage. That means the meta will adapt to Knock Off Lando-I, start using mons that can newly counter this Knock-Off Lando-I variant, and it will again have just as many counters as it does now.

So I really am not seeing the logic in just dismissing usage stats. You provide no evidence for your "the meta adapts" argument. In fact, I could argue that knock off Lando has become much less common since the start of this meta.

Firstly i've no idea where you're getting that data from, so here's the correct stuff
http://i.imgur.com/0dwnlep.png
http://i.imgur.com/UGUh97K.png
http://i.imgur.com/7Twa9hY.png
After that, your constant denial of the fact that Lando does run Knock off significantly isn't help your cause.

Hide

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice]

This set is still an effective set for Lando-I while being a bit Gyara weak(Torn-t doesn't like coming in on Knock Off). Not like Gyara is so difficult to prepare for. I almost always pair this Lando set with Thundy, Mega-Manectric, or the like. It doesn't lose to Gyara, it just switches out from it. And from Team Preview you may figure out that i'm not running rock slide, i can easily pressure your Gyara or whatever cos that's prolly the only answer to my Lando. There's your loss.

 

[fyourblog]

I still don't get why you adamantly refuse to see how usage =/= viability. The fact that you say if Lando is running Knock Off it will losing to something, if it isn't running Knock Off it loses to a lot as well. Knock Off is its only reliable way to deal with Lati@s, Chansey, and Cress (to some extent). You can't just say that running a certain move is bad if it will add to removing its Checks and Counters. The fact that Landorus can run all of these options is the reason it is broken. Sure Knock Off may not be common right now, but the fact that it might have it makes people wary of switching their Lati@s in, and instead may scout for it which adds chip damage to the rest of their team. Landorus is broken due to the fact it is close to impossible to tell what coverage it is running, from Team Preview which forces people to scout for it.

Wow, if you read my post on page 3 or 4 you'd actually see that I agree with your first sentence on how they are not equal to each other. Rather my argument is the fact that usage is the strongest indicator to viability strictly going on statistical evidence that we can see with our eyes.

Also you refuse to give me evidence on your part when you said this here (I asked on page 4):

If you say that it is the largest indicator to viability, then when do most high level tournament players consider Knock Off and Rock Slide over other options. Lets say that those options were not viable, then and Landorus-I running Rock Slide would easily be beaten by Lati@s, Chansey, Tornadus-T, Zapdos, the list goes on and on. The fact that it has the power to run these moves and reduce its list of checks and counters is why they are viable.

Please tell me what high level tournament players are using KO and RS, and back it up with replays. The fact is I'm the only person backing up my claims with evidence, you've just said some words and not replied to me with the evidence.

 

[shiloh]

You're right, RP isn't used on half the Lando-Is, but it is also the 4th most used move in the game. Also I won't stop using usage as an argument, the fact that people deny it and say it's only useful in how much something is used is RIDICULOUS. If a move isn't being used as much as another one, that is a strong indicator of how viable it is in the meta. It is the only SOLID evidence that STATISTICALLY shows viability. I am not arguing that usage=viablity, as so many people think I have. In fact, if you read any of my posts, I actually agree and say they don't equal each other. But usage is the STRONGEST INDICATOR of viability that we can see in STATISTICAL EVIDENCE. There is literally no other stronger form of evidence in defining viability. If people thought Knock Off was viable in this meta, it would at least be at 33-35%. Absolutely ridiculous that people are arguing that 12.5% of Lando's that carry Knock Off are a threat to the meta. Lando's carrying KO and giving up RP means they lose to a million other checks that they would rather not lose to. It makes Lando-I an inefficient late game sweeper-- and that's the main reason he's S-ranked.

First off there are a lot of other indicators to viability, and one of those are the actual viability rankings. If we went off the fact that usage is the biggest indicator of viability, should people stop preparing and using Manaphy, one of the biggest threats to Balance and Stall? And you mention the fact that Rock Polish is the reason it is S Rank, a quick look at the set viability rankings shows that it is S rank for all of its sets, Rock Polish, Calm Mind, and All Out Attacking with moves like Knock Off and Rock Slide.