Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[thebestever543]

Hello everyone, I’d like to make a quick introduction and then we’ll get straight to the point. This post is about post-dlc Tyranitar and the future for it in this tier. I hope you all enjoy!

At a glance most can appreciate Tyranitar getting knock because it helps force progress and it just looks like a good move for T-tar to use over crunch! Yes. Ofc this is a simple summarization but I don’t believe it explains everything. Tyranitar gaining access to knock-off and other reasons have revived this fallen titan in ways that may have been overlooked. The other reasons that will contribute to Tyranitar’s success is Alomomola. This point will come across as obvious to some but also I’ve found to be slightly controversial. Only hindsight will tell whether or not this is way off, but the community seems fairly divided on whether or not flip turn Mola is going to make a significant impact in the meta. Some are calling it niche while others like myself think it will be one of the most defining Pokémon in the meta. I believe Mola will help alleviate some of the problems Ttar has been criticized for. Probably the biggest critique of Tyranitar across its history in competitive singles is that it has no reliable form of recovery. Now while that is still true, Mola offers a safe form of recovery which may allow Tyranitar to run boots as well to avoid getting punished further from volt switch/u-turn. I don’t want to stress this point anymore because it’s very theoretical and we can’t predict the success of either Pokémon at this point.

So what else is most likely to switch in? Great Tusk, Urshifu, Landorus, Clefable, Rotom, Ting-Lu, Donbozo and I can go on. While no mon realistically appreciates losing its item, these more so than others want to preserve their item and are especially punished for switching in. These defensive checks to Tyranitar rely heavily on leftovers to sustain themselves or simply require their item to actually fulfill their role throughout the match as in the case of Urshifu. A certain someone pointed out to me that support Tyranitar could have a viable niche. Being able to hinder anything that switches in, clicking thunder wave and knock off on everything. Ttar becomes a very good enabler for physical attackers who benefit from any of the following Support Ttar can cripple. The set would likely be SpDef with knock, pursuit, rocks, thunder wave. If your team can’t punish common switch ins like tusk you could probably run toxic instead. This set can offer a level of role compression rarely seen in NatDex and as the meta stands, very few mons can switch in without being punished one way or another by the loss of their item or paralysis. The other set that I’m most excited for is choice band Ttar. With knock-off this is incredibly difficult to switch into. I think in order to fathom the potential this Pokémon has with this move, an entire post dedicated to knock-off would be necessary. The main draw of this set is that knock-off now reduces the need for choice locked Ttar to correctly predict. Although it may have had 4 moveslot syndrome in the past, Ttar cares less now that it gets a lot of value out of any given turn even when clicking its dark STAB into defensive resistances. I hope I introduced you to some new ideas and made my point clear and easy to understand for both new and experienced players. I think an increase in Alomomola's viability can directly contribute to Tyranitar's success and along with Tyranitar being able to force progress by hindering and crippling defensive answers with status + item removal or clicking powerful choice band knock-offs, wearing down its checks has become easier than ever before.

Special thanks to kyo for revising and introducing me to support Tyranitar. Very interested in hearing the community’s thoughts and I hope this introduced you to new ideas for team building!

 

[Moyashi]

1. What are you excited for most? What do you think about the new Pokemon?
2. What are your expectations regarding hyper offense?
3. What are your expectations regarding bulky offense?
4. What are your expectations regarding balance?
5. What are your expectations regarding fat/stall?
6. What former OU mon(s) are you expecting to plummet to UU or below?
7. Which mon(s) if any do you believe will get banned by the end of the month?
8. Is Knock Off enough to save (Mega-)Tyranitar from falling to UU?

1. Loyal Three are weird and I haven't seen many successful applications so far. Ogerpon is fun, especially with the newly discovered damage boosts from the masks. Rockmask has some cool anti meta applications. Fire mask is a nuke especially on sun. Watermask is fun on rain. UrsalunaBM is kinda goofy and CM tera fairy sets can collect kills.
2. HO now has Fire Mask and Scale Shot Bax. I have seen a couple Take Heart Nanaphy too.
3. Empoleon has some practical applications and im curious to see how people make use of it. And again, Ursaluna BM is pretty good.
4. empo again. Ttar. I also think flip turn mola has potential.
5. No comment.
6. I'd like Corv to drop because it sucks. And I expect a couple loyal three members to drop. Glimmora also really should drop but for some reason ladder won't let it go.
7. To early to tell.
8. I think so. It's a big buff.

 

[LBN]

Nice pult got banned. Anyways I think it's time I say this right now. Considering NDPL is on the clock, I propose 2 things. 1: Immediately unban Ursaluna, and then suspect Gholdengo in the same breath. Ursaluna got QB'd without any real chance to play and everywhere else on this site it's been fine. Of course, I'm aware OU is a different metagame than NDOU, but frankly there's been a multitude of posts explaining why Ursaluna would be ok in practice, I don't truly think it needs a suspect test. It would also provide a soft Gholdengo check, which will be useful for the tier as the pokemon gets it's suspect underway. Just correct this wrong right now, there's truly no reason why we can't unban Ursaluna as it is when the reasons given for it's ban were mostly for NDLT and TR cope.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Roaring Moon also seems like a good retest as it provides the tier with a offensive Gholdengo answer and with now that it has Knock Off it provides a lot more utility to the tier. I would say unban Ursaluna and Roaring moon and then revote them the next week to see if they are truely too much for the tier :)

 

[Oculars]

Ok boys gotta agree with the post above its been long enough coming but now were at the point where we have to unban roaring moon, it was quickbanned before we understood what booster energy does (1.3x vs 1.5x) making it much more manageable, the meta has also developed significantly from the early days which were dominated by HO that could get swept by the Z dragon dance sets.

I feel its important to unban roaring moon before the gholdengo sus since we know moon has to be unbanned at some point and having it freed before the gholdengo sus gives us one more offensive dark in the tier to be able to handle ghol which could influence whether ghol remains broken or not.

The same thing goes for normal ursaluna which provides a soft check to ghol and a splashable fat ghost immunity with offensive presence which this tier often lacks. Having these UU ass mons we all know shouldnt be banned free before the suspect will greatly influence whether or not ghol is ban worthy and I feel its important that the order of tiering puts the Luna and Moon unbans before a ghol suspect (then a garganacl or zamazenta re-sus pls depending on if gholdengo gets banned or not)

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I agree with all of the above. There shouldn't be any suspect test until Ursaluna and Roaring Moon are tested to be brought back.

 

[omarsgarciav]

I have seen some very bad takes regarding the new mons and old mons buffs, so I am here to bless y'all with the correct opinions.


This mon is for sure broken. Tera is already a stupid mechanic but it becomes exponentially more ridiculous when it has the added effect of mega evolving into zacian. Trailblaze has, up to now, been kind of a meme move, but this mon at +1 outspeeds the entire tier and every relevant scarfer, leaving only lop and unburden sneasler as semi-consistent answers. Keep in mind that lop needs to sac at least 1 mon, assuming it's fake out + quick attack and no prior chip, also needs to be careful about horn leech on the sac. On the other hand unburden sneasler 1. only works once and 2. only fits on ho. Defensively there is nothing that can answer this at base, so it forces a tera dragon on like pex or garg, doesn't help that ivy cudgel is not contact so zap/helmet aren't viable options. We could use this mon as more fuck tera propaganda and somehow if the stars align get another another sus (which I would entirely support) but that's just cope, realistically this mon just has to go asap.


This thing is also probably broken, would need to use/face it a bit more to make a better call, still has like zero defensive answers but spdef boost is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse than atk boost bc obviously and u cant use multiple of these things on the same team so this is prob just gonna be firepon 2 once the real one goes.


I've seen ppl compare this thing to garm, calling it "baby garm" or "garm jr" but this thing has viability roughly equivalent to garms pet bird. This is because 1. garm is an ice type, which is at worst a top 3 offensive type, whereas grass is at best bottom 5 and 2. garm has actual coverage but this thing's best coverage is fucking stomping tantrum which is sad, just use firepon. Again, once that goes this thing has a very very small chance of replacing it.


Just use firepon, this thing is a strict downgrade


This thing is prob broken, nothing beats it defensively except for max spdef celesteela or max spdef ironpress corvi, both of which are extremely terrible and corvi can even lose if bloona decides it doesn't want to be weak to fighting. Offensively sure there are a lot of fighters but again it can just decide to resist fighting and ohko them back with blood moon or cm up and sweep depending on the situation. Tera poison is the most common and unless you have a lele it will more than likely claim two kills, if not just sweep.


Lumping these three together bc they are all garbage. The bird is a defensive mon which checks a grand total of zero pokemon, beat up is massive cope just use toxic. As a poison type, the monkey is a strict downgrade to sneasler but it hits pex so like sure but like yeah it's just not worth everything else being so much worse, and as a psychic just use lele. If you're really that thirsty for a psychic/poison type use glowking, that mon actually acomplishes things. The fat monkey is just another mu fish, if you're not using bulk up just use lop or medi or zama or tusk or sneas or urshifu, even as a setup sweeping shitmon just use hisuigant or kommoo.


I should not need to explain why this mon is hot garbo


I've seen alot of ppl talking about how this thing is the next landorus t when it is really not great. Pult being gone leaves exactly one pokemon in the tier weak to pursuit, and it just so happens that it packs a stab make it rain which ttar does not like switchin into, it can also decide it isn't weak to dark. stay in and wall it. Similar story with lele, except choiced sets actually get trapped, so hf doing that until The opposing Tapu Lele surrounded itself with its Z-Power! pops up in the chat or it just clicks moonblast. Ppl also treat it as a yard counter when 1. scorching sands is literally scald and 2. focus blast. If you are that desperate to click funny dark button use weavile.


Grouping these two together bc they are both now excelent water pivots, each with its own distinct advantages. Alomomola is extremely bulky, can wishpass and has regenerator, but is extremely passive and has trouble fitting all of its moves (wish, protect, toxic, flip turn, scald, koff). On the other hand, Empoleon trades some raw bulk, regenerator and the utility of wishpassing for a secondary steel typing, significantly better offensive presence and rocks/defog.


Ik these two aren't new but since I already talked abt a few brokens these two would fit right in. Tera makes dealing with ghold extremely unreasonable and makes it borderline impossible to built fat/stall, please release ghold sus now. Sneasler does not need a sus, just qb it. Unburden is a super broken ability and no mon with it should have an attacking stat higher than base 100, so sneas pulling up with base 130, good offensive typing, solid coverage and a respectable defensive profile is just fuck no, dire claw is just icing on the cake. I am truly baffled that this mon has lasted as long as please at least just sus this thing already.

This concludes my ted talk, remember that if you disagree with any of these takes you are wrong and should be embarrassed

 

[sealoo]

Baxcalibur was recently banned from OU, and I think there needs to be a conversation about this mon in ND as well.

We have more tools to deal with Bax than OU, namely Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory, as well as priority options like Mega Lopunny/Mega Medicham and speed control like Tapu Lele and Kartana.

Despite all this, the sheer amount of tera options that can be used by this mon is ridiculous. Fairy/Steel/Poison/Ground/Dragon/Ghost are all valid options that can thwart any of the aforementioned counterplay. Although I dont think SD is as good as DD, it is still a threatening, new option that can be used.


I dont know if I think this mon is necessarily over the top broken, but what I do know is that this thing is very unfun to play and build with in mind. After Ogerpon-Fire gets nuked (Please qb it) and Gholdengo gets suspected, I would strongly support a suspect and enthusiastically vote BAN.

We should release a survey btw

 

[Kenpwnchi]

View attachment 554077
Baxcalibur was recently banned from OU, and I think there needs to be a conversation about this mon in ND as well.

We have more tools to deal with Bax than OU, namely Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory, as well as priority options like Mega Lopunny/Mega Medicham and speed control like Tapu Lele and Kartana.

Despite all this, the sheer amount of tera options that can be used by this mon is ridiculous. Fairy/Steel/Poison/Ground/Dragon/Ghost are all valid options that can thwart any of the aforementioned counterplay. Although I dont think SD is as good as DD, it is still a threatening, new option that can be used.


I dont know if I think this mon is necessarily over the top broken, but what I do know is that this thing is very unfun to play and build with in mind. After Ogerpon-Fire gets nuked (Please qb it) and Gholdengo gets suspected, I would strongly support a suspect and enthusiastically vote BAN.

We should release a survey btw

Tbh, I feel like there's more mons for Nats that counter Baxcalibur, though (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Oculars]

ghol/sneasler sus when?

 

[vesp]

ghol/sneasler sus when?

idk but prob post firepon qb if it happens

 

[ssuperiority]

Get ogerpon hearthflame out of here. Giving crazy dracovish vibes. Fucking horrendous to face in builder and in the actual battle. It needs to go. There is no "wait for the meta to develop and it will calm down" shit going on here, it has mold Breaker to bypass unaware and heatran/sap sipper azu (the fact that people use it to check oger shows how unhealthy it is) trailblaze to destroy offense, the same attack stat as kingambit but with good speed, and gen 8 intrepid sword. Council should just qb it and vote on Roaring moon in the same post cause it saves time and nobody in their right mind wants ogerpon-h to stay anyway.

 

[vesp]

Get ogerpon hearthflame out of here. Giving crazy dracovish vibes. Fucking horrendous to face in builder and in the actual battle. It needs to go. There is no "wait for the meta to develop and it will calm down" shit going on here, it has mold Breaker to bypass unaware and heatran/sap sipper azu (the fact that people use it to check oger shows how unhealthy it is) trailblaze to destroy offense, the same attack stat as kingambit but with good speed, and gen 8 intrepid sword. Council should just qb it and vote on Roaring moon in the same post cause it saves time and nobody in their right mind wants ogerpon-h to stay anyway.

True asf. It's very much too powerful. It doesn't have any answers defensively except tera ir ability shield(and even then coverage can fold counters).

 

[Chilli Dewd]

So I been hearing a lot of Heartflame Ogerpon quickban claims recently, and I wanted to give my overall opinion on this pokemon...

At first I was like "Man, First they took Walking Wake from me and now this?"(Sun seems to have the most broken toys this gen i guess)But after facing it and using it, I can see why many are frustrated with this mon. Having to sack a mon just to pray it kills it quickly before it gets a +1 speed or dances around u with swords its just absurd. To me one major role that plays on its dominance its its pre tera ability, Mold Breaker. Who needs coverage for Tera Grass Heatran when you can just blast threw its Flash Fire? This also makes Unaware mons useless since it will just be boosting its way threw them, so no Dondozo nor Skeledirge is going to patch it. And if all of that wasn't enough, the gave her a Zacian like ability upon Terastalizing. As much as i love sun, I also care for the health of the meta, I stood out for the people when Walking Wake was terrorizing the tier, and I am standing out in here as well.

 

[R8]

I've seen people talking about SD sets a lot: while I don't deny that these sets are very strong and threatening, imo you completely can go all out 4a if you are fine being a bit more tera reliant (which isn't that bad of a drawback: just look at Garganacl) and be as much unwallable: you slap Ivy Cudgel, a grass move (Note that PWhip/Wood Hammer 2hkoes most non-resists, including max physdef Toxapex) then whatever other moves last to hit whatever pokemon. Play Rough hits dragons, Superpower/Stomping Tantrum annihilate Heatran, Rock Tomb is the crack of doom for Moltres and some defensive fires pple might try to cope with, and you could even toy with one of Knock Off/U-Turn/Spikes. You’d notice that lot of Ogerpon’s potential answers (most notably fires and dragons) pretty much lose their ability to safely switch into Ogerpon as soon as they get knocked off. Of course, this will need more maintenance as this is harder to pull off than just KOing them with the appropriate coverage move, but the upside is being able to hit a significant amount of them with only one move. You could probably use Trailblaze on 4a as well, but this isn’t something I tried/saw yet.

Reliable defensive counterplay for this pokemon is extremely limited. In fact, aside from Skeledirge, tera dragon ability shield Dondozo (which can respectively still lose to 1. Knock or sd rock tomb/stomping or 2. Be in Play Rough 3HKO range after any kind of chip), tera grass ability shield defensive Heatran (takes 50% from Superpower, and is a bad set anyway) or tera dragon Avalugg-Hisui (lol), there might be no reliable counters for this thing in the entire game, even if you accept to look even into super garbage C rank sub zu mons running the most cursed sets known to the human kind. Not even mentioning that having to spend your tera just to have a defensive answer to the mon is not innocuous either.

If you want a more convincing reasoning, here you go: as tera'd power whip 2hkoes physdef Toxapex, a defensive check to Ogerpon-Hearthflame probably would have to (assuming :
1. Resist Grass OR have the sap sipper ability while holding an Ability Shield
2. Resist Fire OR have the flash fire ability while holding an Ability Shield (Heatproof/Thick Fat is a thing too, but these Pokemon are destroyed by Hearthflame anyway).

You would also want to not be weak to Play Rough or Superpower, as these coverage moves are strong enough to destroy you even if you are very bulky (Tera Dragon H-Avalugg takes 64.9-76.6% minimum from Play Rough, and is probably the only tera mon bulky enough to take a boosted coverage move while being able to KO Hearthflame back, with Stone Edge). If you decide to not count NFE pokemon, you get the following results:

You are essentially left with Fire types, which are either 1. not bulky enough 2. cannot KO ogerpon either before or after tera, leading them to still lose once they switch into Ogerpon (this include ability shield sap sipper Azumarill, which is 2hkoed by Ivy Cudgel after an SD) 3. die to Rock Tomb 4. are ubers. You are left with Skeledirge and Tauros-Blaze, basically, which will die to the uncommon but very usable Knock Off - like everything else on this list lol. EDIT: Did I mention this pokemon can't be copied by Ditto? Lol.

This post also covers how limited offensive counterplay is for trailblaze sets so I don't have to go over it, which is fortunate considering I am lazy. Please get this shit out ASAP, this pokemon is dumb to absolutely amazing levels, and I believe not quick banning it would be a mistake.

 

[Larrycharizard1]

Get ogerpon hearthflame out of here. Giving crazy dracovish vibes. Fucking horrendous to face in builder and in the actual battle. It needs to go. There is no "wait for the meta to develop and it will calm down" shit going on here, it has mold Breaker to bypass unaware and heatran/sap sipper azu (the fact that people use it to check oger shows how unhealthy it is) trailblaze to destroy offense, the same attack stat as kingambit but with good speed, and gen 8 intrepid sword. Council should just qb it and vote on Roaring moon in the same post cause it saves time and nobody in their right mind wants ogerpon-h to stay anyway.

0 Atk Azumarill Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 61-73 (20.2 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+3 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Tera Fire Ogerpon-Hearthflame-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 256-302 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
legit setup fodder lmao, its not even a check at ma defense. u can just sd, click cudgel once and then tera and ko.
I can't play the tier with this mon in here, whenever im getting back to 1700 this bro pops in with some webs HO and just game ends the entire battle. quickban asp!!!

 

[Alealessandro]

Never had I agreed for a quickban vote for a Pokémon as much as for Ogerpon Hearthflame. Perhaps if it didn’t have moldbreaker it wouldn’t stand out as much compared to the other forms. But being able to completely bypass Heatran, Dondozo, and other checks/counters is absurd.
Other pokémon I believe we should keep an eye on and should be suspect tested:
Sneasler, Gholdengo, Ursaluna, Baxcalibur, Roaring Moon.
I’m always down to chat and make friends so hmu!

 

[Larrycharizard1]

Never had I agreed for a quickban vote for a Pokémon as much as for Ogerpon Hearthflame. Perhaps if it didn’t have moldbreaker it wouldn’t stand out as much compared to the other forms. But being able to completely bypass Heatran, Dondozo, and other checks/counters is absurd.
Other pokémon I believe we should keep an eye on and should be suspect tested:
Sneasler, Gholdengo, Ursaluna, Baxcalibur, Roaring Moon.
I’m always down to chat and make friends so hmu!

yes, its mainly moldbreaker. the other ogerpon have their checks like ferrothorn, etc. but its also just the absurd potential of the two stab types when there is no checks. a pokemon needs checks to function in a meta and without them it becomes totally unabalanced, as seem with pult.

 

[Kyo]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-player-surveys.3715235/post-9797372

New tiering survey up! I've been reading and I appreciate all your feedback here, but we also need a way to collect data from the player base as a whole so don't forget to participate. Planning to wrap this up by Friday so you may be able to expect tiering action as soon as the end of this week.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Ogerpon-Hearthflame is broken, there is simply not enough counterplay for it without restricting teambuilding. It has an unhealthy presence on the tier and mandates faster mons and priority users to be on the team (and kept healthy) just to ensure it doesn't sweep. It invalidates multiple playstyles just existing

I hope the new survey gets this Mon banned asap for the health of the tier

 

[Jho]

I'll talk a bit about why I pushed for us to do a survey instead of straight up casting a council vote for Hearthflame despite it being public enemy #1 since the DLC dropped.

Firstly, I dislike quickbans and council forced action in general and think they should only be done when absolutely necessary; you can see this in last generations tiering where the only quickbans outside the launch of the tier were The Big 5 Bans, The 2 Caly, and Mega Alakazam. I much prefer to get the communities input on things, whether that be an On The Radar Thread, a tiering survey, or a suspect test. Even for the above, only the 2 Caly and Mega Zam didnt have some form of community input thread before hand as they were banned within 24hours due to how obviously insane they were.

We've seen how council quickbans can backfire very recently with the Ursaluna slate, which in hindsight we know was a mistake for the reasons I dislike quickbans - the community wasnt involved. So in the case of Hearthflame I was even more skeptical of council action than normal in order to avoid the same dissent

Hearthflame on the other hand, is obviously very, very good and easily one of if not the most broken Pokemon in the tier right now, however, at the time of deciding which route we wanted to take it had only been present in a single NDPL game (albeit one on both teams in said game) and if the allegations of it needing to be emergency banned for the health of the tournament were true, surely it would have had more of a presence.

For this reason I argued that a week long survey was ideal as it did 2 fold:

• Gives us another week to evaluate Hearthflames performance in the biggest tournament of the Year, if it is as much of a problem as people claim, surely we will see the evidence of it now that people have had more time to "warm" up to it. Or, conversely, if Hearthflame has an underwhelming showing we can start a discussion on why it isnt meeting initial expectations and we can potentially avoid a mistake like Ursaluna from repeating.
• A survey gives us an opportunity to fully grasp the community sentiment, while we know that Hearthflame is at the top of the hit list from going through posts here, reading the Discord, watching the PS! room etc, a formal way for the community and the council to share a dialogue avoids the main complaint that people seemingly had with the Ursaluna quickban, which was the lack of communication involved.

This is ideal in my opinion as, if we time the ending of the survey and potentially the subsequent council voting slate, we have the same amount of weeks with Hearthflame in NDPL either way. This way just ensures we are keeping direct communication with you guys and not making any rash decisions again.

While we're here, I also pushed for no action on Roaring Moon for the time being as I believe there is wayyyy too much stuff in the tier to deal with to be adding anything else into the pool at this time. Ursaluna was an exception to this as it is perceivadly far worse than Roaring Moon and was a Ban made with no community input which we wanted to revisit. On top of this Roaring Moon also received some notable additions in the DLC so we weren't comfortable looking at Moon again just yet. Personally I want the tier to be in a balanced state (or as close as we can get) before we start looking at adding Moon back to the tier.

Personally I'd like to see Hearthflame, Gholdengo, and Valiant looked at in some form in the near future, pending the results of the survey here. I think Wellspring Mask is really good too and something to keep an eye on after the aforementioned mons get looked at.

 

[sealoo]

Wanted to address Jho's post above, specifically pertaining to NDPL. Will preface that this isn't a rebuttal, but a continuation of the impact this mon had on this week of NDPL to put it in a more tangible form.

Hearthflame on the other hand, is obviously very, very good and easily one of if not the most broken Pokemon in the tier right now, however, at the time of deciding which route we wanted to take it had only been present in a single NDPL game (albeit one on both teams in said game) and if the allegations of it needing to be emergency banned for the health of the tournament were true, surely it would have had more of a presence.

Below is a quick chart I made analyzing the usage and success seen by Ogerpon-H(earthflame) in W3 of NDPL

- Usage: ~58% (7/12)

- Win %: ~83% (5/6, chose to exclude the mirror for this)

- Kills per game: 3.14 (22/7, excluded BFM vs GBS where it did not come out, would be 2.75 if included)

Personally, I think these numbers corroborate the various pieces of anecdotal evidence that can be seen in this thread, room, and Discord.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding parallels to the process by which Ursaluna was quickbanned; I support the notion that our council should be more receptive to community input when going through voting slates, but these situations aren't very similar.

As someone who was around for both situations, you can see clear as day how different the public consensus is around both mons. Ogerpon-H is much more broken than Ursaluna could dream of and the community feedback, particularly in ND cord, supports this. Don't wanna talk abt this too much since it wasn't my main purpose but yea

Sry if the math on my chart is wrong xd

 

[Nashrock]

Personally I think if the council do want to hear the voice of people, it might be better just qb ogerpon-heartflame first and then see what people are saying based on the survey, which would definitely give everyone a more stable meta to play for all the tours going rn. It's almost impossible to wall pon unless you tera dragon something or bring stupid ability shield tran which can still get knock-offed. I don't know what can be more restricting in terms of teambuilding if everyone is restricted to waste a certain tera or bring some item that can only check ONE certain mon and giving up longevity.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I know there are precedence of bad council decisions in the past, but context is key. I don't think Ursaluna and Ogerpon-Hearthflame are remotely comparable. One was overhyped to moon and quickly discovered to be pretty bad in OU (not even decent), whereas Ogerpon was ininitally underestimated, then found to be absurdly busted (upon discovering the mask boost).

I know Natdex isn't OU, but OU has a large and qualified playerbase with a mostly stable meta, and both Ogerpon/Ursaluna are relatively same in Natdex as compared to OU. Ogerpon is broken in both, Ursaluna is mid/bad in both.

 

[Thedeathsofbeings234]

I know there are precedence of bad council decisions in the past, but context is key. I don't think Ursaluna and Ogerpon-Hearthflame are remotely comparable. One was overhyped to moon and quickly discovered to be pretty bad in OU (not even decent), whereas Ogerpon was ininitally underestimated, then found to be absurdly busted (upon discovering the mask boost).

I know Natdex isn't OU, but OU has a large and qualified playerbase with a mostly stable meta, and both Ogerpon/Ursaluna are relatively same in Natdex as compared to OU. Ogerpon is broken in both, Ursaluna is mid/bad in both.

Agreed with everything said there.

I think we really should just get rid of the more obvious one out of the way rather than doing a whole survey first. It's a waste of time and i dont think anyone wants firepon to stay any longer now.