-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter R8
- Start date
I feel like pult has to go first, imo gholdengo is pretty borderline rn, the metagame is still developing a lot, but I can definitely see some action on it in the future
anyways, on a slightly different note, now that gambit's gone, what pokemon have you been using the extra slot for on rain? I've heard a few interesting ideas, like basc-f or barraskewda
BascuF is probably the most easily slapped on, imo anyways, since it has high power under rain and a nice speed tier thanks to swift swim. The lack of gambit to trap it helps it keep from being one and done. Although at high ladder I've seen a number of alolan muk players. Not sure if that's just my luck or something else.
I also enjoy Greninja, specifically battle bond with WateriumZ, as it can shockingly blow through teams mid-late game. If there is no Rilla, it can kinda go nuts in some games.
I actually find Gholdengo forcing way more degenerate interactions than Dragapult - the good old SS OU checks to Dragapult are still viable while generation 9 has introduced some incredible checks to sets that are exclusive to this format (e.g. Garganacl for DD Dragapult).
As for Gholdengo, fairies and every viable dark type with pursuit outside of Kingambit get absolutely blown up by make it rain, bulky water types that are not weak to ghost cannot apply enough offensive pressure, specially bulky grounds are threatened after a nasty plot on the switch, etc as it preys on almost every defensive mon that is somewhat passive (look at how it straight up invalidated Corviknight and Tapu Fini in this generation of National Dex, two fantastic defoggers in gen 8), giving it a plethora of entry points every single game. Its fantastic typing and broken ability also prevents it from being affected by status moves at all, making more indirect methods of dealing with threats such as phazing and toxic poison unviable against it.
what exactly do you mean by good old SS OU checks, since im like 95% sure they lose to pult with tera, barring garg, I feel like it's really hard to justify most of them in the current metagame, and pult being able to tera out of its weaknesses or strengthen its moves doesn't help that
Heatran is not a bad stopgap against special Dragapult while Clefable does fairly well against most variants even if it terastallises (the only exception is tera ghost choice specs unless it's running full SPD), and while it can be broken past with DD + z-move sets at least you can try scouting for it once you see the Dragapult dancing.
Note that I'm not saying Dragapult isn't broken without Kingambit around, I'm just saying that whatever counterplay we currently have against it feels much more solid than the things we need to do whenever that funny string cheese man hits the field.
Last edited:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Heatran: 158-188 (40.9 - 48.7%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Clefable: 184-218 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
specs pult with tera alone can 2hko all of these with very minimal prior chip.
I'm bringing up specs here specifically, since it's the best set imo, but I also think that pult can rather easily switch its moves with all the coverage it gets. As people figure out how to optimize it more, I feel like it's only going to get worse, I'd much rather have defensive powercreep over offensive ones, while yeah they may both be broken, I feel like dragapult is just such a wildcard pick in what its set can beat and be beat by, that is even further complicated by the tera issue is why I'd rather it go first, gholdengo can only really do 2 things, be a great defensive piece or a really medicore attacker, while pult can be a setup sweeper, a super strong specs wallbreaker, a pivot, a status spreader that deals good damage too, etc etc etc
That is why I said max SPD for Clefable (calm or sassy nature), it can survive a hit as long as you don't let it get worn down while it can thunder wave, knock off or just moonblast the Dragapult to slow it down. As for Heatran, forcing the tera while getting some chip damage on it is still fairly good.
The main difference between Dragapult and Gholdengo to me is that chip damage or status conditions from manfighting Dragapult actually sticks (while it's very dependent on keeping its item on choice specs sets), but you need to knock out or severely damage Gholdengo to prevent it from coming in and healing off any progress you have made.
I also disagree with your edited message as Gholdengo compresses all of the roles you mentioned into its standard nasty plot/shadow ball/make it rain or focus blast/recover set: it tanks hits, heals off damage and sets up on passive Pokemon to snowball into a terrifying wallbreaker.
I feel like the argument of being able to take chip damage well doesn't really apply here, that's more a candidate of just being a good wall. Like yeah, gholdengo may be annoying to deal with, but at least it's easy to know HOW it's going to be annoying, which is by blocking defog, keeping up hazards and having a good resist profile. While blocking defog is nice, we've seen the rise of hazard controls than are able to deal with ghold start to become better and better (moltres being able to deal serious damage with its fire stab, tusk just murdering with headlong, etc) I really like how you brought up how you have to keep your clef high hp to check dragapult here, because I feel like having to keep your max spdef, decently specially bulky target above 80% to avoid a 2hko on the switchin is just plain ridiculous, for a neutral hit. I'd much rather see dragapult go ASAP because, as we go into week 1 of SSNL, because while ghold may be overbearing at times, the metagame has had much more time to adapt to it existing, meanwhile with dragapult, we had started adapting, which was by using kingambit, leaving us much more unprepared to deal with the threats it brings to the table
You're not really forcing a tera. Dragapult freely clicks it itself to easily muscle through would be checks. Also with Clefable, no competent Pult user would stay in unless they have the KO secure. So how are you thunder waving/moonblasting it?
I do agree Ghold shouldn't be an immediate priority, but from personal experience I've seen Ghold users start running tera types that resist fire and using substitute to take advantage of Moltres and set up on it, making it quite difficult to grab momentum back from at times. Offensive teams may not struggle as much, but I am concerned about whether bulkier teams can handle it long-term.
Weird seeing discussion on Ghold getting banned when Natdex has multiple defoggers that beat Ghold like Heat Wave Torn, Lando-T, Gliscor, etc. Someone catch me up with the scoop of this meta.
To be clear, I don't think gholdengo is the focus right now (though I may be wrong and if I am someone feel free to chime in), as pult is a much bigger offender. But addressing it, Ghold can undermine defog attempts through use of Tera. Moltres is probably the best anti Ghold defogger overall and people sometimes run tera water/dragon to flip that match up. It's quite awkward.
It's not at all impossible to defog on it, but it definitely has a pretty big impact on building.
None of these really beat Gholdengo: the national dex set is specifically designed to oneshot defog Tornadus at +2 while taking 2 heat waves even without terastallising while Lando-T and Gliscor just kind of crumple to it once it terastallises and boosts in front of them.
As Moyashi said, it's not impossible to defog against teams with the mon, it's just that you're forced into a lot of subpar interactions against it over and over again thanks to its access to recover.
I do agree Ghold shouldn't be an immediate priority, but from personal experience I've seen Ghold users start running tera types that resist fire and using substitute to take advantage of Moltres and set up on it, making it quite difficult to grab momentum back from at times. Offensive teams may not struggle as much, but I am concerned about whether bulkier teams can handle it long-term.
[/QUOTE]
Depends on the set people run for Gholdengo. If it's a Scarf sweeper (the one I see the most), Knock Off tanks like Toxapex could power through the attacks and make it easier for the rest of the team to deal with it. But if it's a setup sweeper with Nasty Plot, Unaware mons like Clodsire or Dondozo can really help (and in the case of Dondozo, setup themselves without risk.)
[/QUOTE]
Depends on the set people run for Gholdengo. If it's a Scarf sweeper (the one I see the most), Knock Off tanks like Toxapex could power through the attacks and make it easier for the rest of the team to deal with it. But if it's a setup sweeper with Nasty Plot, Unaware mons like Clodsire or Dondozo can really help (and in the case of Dondozo, setup themselves without risk.)
Unaware clod, in my experience, loses to tera ghost/water ghold, and Dozo also loses too. Clod’s recover just gets pp stalled out, and Dozo can’t set up because ghold can outdamage rest.
Well, its been a while since i talk in here... So ill get to the point. Recently I been thinking to make a 2nd archetype tier list. And I even included the PhychicSpam archetype, which wasn't as discovered during the time I made the first edition. However, there is a rather obsure archetype currently starting to trend a lil bit. The Revival Blessing archetype...
For those still don't know, Gen 9 brought us a new move called Revival Blessing, which works just like the Revive item from the playthroughs. This move is balanced by the fact that it only has 1 pp, and only 3 mons learn it (Pawmot, Rabsca, Smeargle). But if you remember the early days of the Revive cats, you know this move has the potential for abuse. Now this isn't anywhere near as broken as Revive Cats was, but people have been discovering its potential as an archetype(or archetypes). The most common mon used alongside this is Mega Bannete, where it uses Infestation + Encore to lock the opponent's mon on the same move, trapped while taking chip damage, and a potential item removal, assuming the mon isn't dead outright. If things go south, simply Destiny Bond to take the opponent's mon with you. If that fails, or succeeds, you can bring it back with Pawmot or Rabsca to revive Mega Banette to potentially take another pokemon out. However, this can go even further if Pawmot and/or Rabsca are running Leppa Berry, which restores all the PP of a move if t reaches 0 PP, and with Revival Blessing having 1, this can potentially revive 2 to even 4 mons in the same game. Now I dont want to oversell it, it does have some ways to play around it, Rabsca and Pawmot themselves arent really good pokes, at least not OU levels of power. Having a Dark type helps greatly against Mega Banette due to their Prankster immunity, altough it can still take it out with D Bond, and Ghost types are immune to trap moves. And outside of Mega Banette, there isn't a lot of other well known mons used for Revival Blessing. However it is an archetype with potential, so people shouldn't sleep on it. Now for my question:
What do you guys think of this "archetype", and should I consider adding it to my next tier list?
I would love to see what you guys think of this overall. Hope you found this insightful, and have a good time on showdown.
For those still don't know, Gen 9 brought us a new move called Revival Blessing, which works just like the Revive item from the playthroughs. This move is balanced by the fact that it only has 1 pp, and only 3 mons learn it (Pawmot, Rabsca, Smeargle). But if you remember the early days of the Revive cats, you know this move has the potential for abuse. Now this isn't anywhere near as broken as Revive Cats was, but people have been discovering its potential as an archetype(or archetypes). The most common mon used alongside this is Mega Bannete, where it uses Infestation + Encore to lock the opponent's mon on the same move, trapped while taking chip damage, and a potential item removal, assuming the mon isn't dead outright. If things go south, simply Destiny Bond to take the opponent's mon with you. If that fails, or succeeds, you can bring it back with Pawmot or Rabsca to revive Mega Banette to potentially take another pokemon out. However, this can go even further if Pawmot and/or Rabsca are running Leppa Berry, which restores all the PP of a move if t reaches 0 PP, and with Revival Blessing having 1, this can potentially revive 2 to even 4 mons in the same game. Now I dont want to oversell it, it does have some ways to play around it, Rabsca and Pawmot themselves arent really good pokes, at least not OU levels of power. Having a Dark type helps greatly against Mega Banette due to their Prankster immunity, altough it can still take it out with D Bond, and Ghost types are immune to trap moves. And outside of Mega Banette, there isn't a lot of other well known mons used for Revival Blessing. However it is an archetype with potential, so people shouldn't sleep on it. Now for my question:
What do you guys think of this "archetype", and should I consider adding it to my next tier list?
I would love to see what you guys think of this overall. Hope you found this insightful, and have a good time on showdown.
Last edited:
This is not an archetype, it's a gimmick at best. It's like eeveepass in natdex doubles, a gimmick at best. It's a POWERFUL gimmick, but it's still a gimmick at best.
Edit: you guys are mad, well I've played a good 20 games with this strategy. It IS A GIMMICK.
Last edited:
The thing is, It's only good when the Pokemon live long enough to pull it off. The two Pokemon who learn it are very frail, meaning you pretty much have to run sash if you're not interested in trading. And even then, Rabsca is an all-around bad Pokemon and Pawmot isn't much better.
Been a little around a week (give or take some hours) since the ban of Kingambit, and I wanted to just drop some personal opinions on the meta since then and general observations (as always, can and probably will be wrong).
The easiest and most blatant case for a mon being pushed over by Gambit's exit. Way more free to click sub and start DDing and it's much more difficult to check as a result. Tera fairy ironpress garg is about the best I've found, and that's at least nice since it itself is a fantastic mon in the tier, but without resorting to sturdy pursuit users I've found it very challenging to contain it. Specs sets are also similarly dangerous as unless facing a team with a fat special wall, garg, or pursuit support, specs pilt can click buttons and force huge progress easily. And when I say fat, I don't mean heatran which takes 40% min from specs tera ghost shadow ball from timid specs tera ghost. Modest specs tera ghost is favored to 2HKO spdef tran from full with just rocks support.
Oh and enjoy switching garg into shadow ball just to eat specs tera draco instead. Pult is easily the most broken and warping mon around ATM and I wouldn't miss it if it left.
I was and still am skeptical this could be broken in a non gambit meta, but i also can't deny how strong nasty plot sets are sometimes. This one though is more due to tera letting it cheat bad match ups and heal off damage, but that ship sailed so it's best to judge it as is. I know Moltres is seeing usage as a fogger that matches up well into dengo, but I've been seeing an alarming amount of them run fire resistant teras to gain free set up and force sacks to try and revenge it, which can be awkward given the bulk (often invested) backed up by its resilience to classic tactics to handling set up threats (taunt/toxic). I've run into a few sub nasty plot gholdengo as well, which can take advantage of passive plays and be even more threatening.
Dunno if I think this mon is broken ATM, but its definitely worth keeping an eye on. Especially with how it indirectly affects the hazard meta as well and limits hazard removal options (many dengo designed to live two heat waves from uninvested TornT).
I think this mon is, and has always been very toxic since day one of its arrival (and personally have a disdain for it for turning much of ladder into a Koko/sneasler fest). Its sweeping capabilities are very potent, but also volatile and it can feel like a mon that potentially just wins mid game if it sets up based on what coverage it chose. I heavily dislike dire claw despite it not being that strong, because it has an awful tendency to bs past would be checks and makes handling it even shakier. Yeah toxapex can potentially sit on it, but being paralyzed, or worse slept, can let sneasler cheap past it. Plus it can just win those match ups anyways with the right tera choice (tera blast ground crushes Toxapex and Gholdengo, tera flying escapes ground types). I don't think this mon brings anything of value to the tier at all and is just a negative presence.
The easiest and most blatant case for a mon being pushed over by Gambit's exit. Way more free to click sub and start DDing and it's much more difficult to check as a result. Tera fairy ironpress garg is about the best I've found, and that's at least nice since it itself is a fantastic mon in the tier, but without resorting to sturdy pursuit users I've found it very challenging to contain it. Specs sets are also similarly dangerous as unless facing a team with a fat special wall, garg, or pursuit support, specs pilt can click buttons and force huge progress easily. And when I say fat, I don't mean heatran which takes 40% min from specs tera ghost shadow ball from timid specs tera ghost. Modest specs tera ghost is favored to 2HKO spdef tran from full with just rocks support.
Oh and enjoy switching garg into shadow ball just to eat specs tera draco instead. Pult is easily the most broken and warping mon around ATM and I wouldn't miss it if it left.
I was and still am skeptical this could be broken in a non gambit meta, but i also can't deny how strong nasty plot sets are sometimes. This one though is more due to tera letting it cheat bad match ups and heal off damage, but that ship sailed so it's best to judge it as is. I know Moltres is seeing usage as a fogger that matches up well into dengo, but I've been seeing an alarming amount of them run fire resistant teras to gain free set up and force sacks to try and revenge it, which can be awkward given the bulk (often invested) backed up by its resilience to classic tactics to handling set up threats (taunt/toxic). I've run into a few sub nasty plot gholdengo as well, which can take advantage of passive plays and be even more threatening.
Dunno if I think this mon is broken ATM, but its definitely worth keeping an eye on. Especially with how it indirectly affects the hazard meta as well and limits hazard removal options (many dengo designed to live two heat waves from uninvested TornT).
I think this mon is, and has always been very toxic since day one of its arrival (and personally have a disdain for it for turning much of ladder into a Koko/sneasler fest). Its sweeping capabilities are very potent, but also volatile and it can feel like a mon that potentially just wins mid game if it sets up based on what coverage it chose. I heavily dislike dire claw despite it not being that strong, because it has an awful tendency to bs past would be checks and makes handling it even shakier. Yeah toxapex can potentially sit on it, but being paralyzed, or worse slept, can let sneasler cheap past it. Plus it can just win those match ups anyways with the right tera choice (tera blast ground crushes Toxapex and Gholdengo, tera flying escapes ground types). I don't think this mon brings anything of value to the tier at all and is just a negative presence.
How fitting, for one of the best offensive Poison types we've gotten since Naganadel is considered toxic. Truly Poison always finds a way to piss off everyone. Though I will say I feel it isn't as good as people make it out to be. Its best sets (f.e. SD+Sash+Unburden) are very unreliable, and without them Sneasler is kinda just more of what we've already seen.
I think this mon is, and has always been very toxic since day one of its arrival (and personally have a disdain for it for turning much of ladder into a Koko/sneasler fest). Its sweeping capabilities are very potent, but also volatile and it can feel like a mon that potentially just wins mid game if it sets up based on what coverage it chose. I heavily dislike dire claw despite it not being that strong, because it has an awful tendency to bs past would be checks and makes handling it even shakier. Yeah toxapex can potentially sit on it, but being paralyzed, or worse slept, can let sneasler cheap past it. Plus it can just win those match ups anyways with the right tera choice (tera blast ground crushes Toxapex and Gholdengo, tera flying escapes ground types). I don't think this mon brings anything of value to the tier at all and is just a negative presence.
Last edited:
sash sneasler is definitely not its best set and also not real lol
anyway, apparently some people have been slapping on eviolite bisharp as their pult counterplay
uhhhh what are our thoughts because imo this ain't it chief
anyway, apparently some people have been slapping on eviolite bisharp as their pult counterplay
uhhhh what are our thoughts because imo this ain't it chief
It's a nice thought, with Sucker Punch being one of the very few pult checks out there. Unfortunately, Bisharp needs to set up with SD before it can even deal damage, and in the face of a Dragapult that could kill most things with a single sneeze, that's very dangerous.