Metagame Metagame Discussion

[LTalent]

Shellos-East @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 68 HP / 212 Def / 180 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Amnesia
- Liquidation
- Recover

This shellos set actually carried me to the top 500. It's basically a Munchlax that doesn't have to rely on RestTalk, has a better natural typing and a better ability in Sticky Hold but does less damage and has a bit less natural bulk, which i find a pretty good tradeoff. Tera fairy is the best defensive tera in the tier, but it does make you weak to SD Pawniard.

I used this team with Shellos: https://pokepast.es/5c69978175bccf24
Sometimes i replaced Zorua-H with Koffing, but I still can't decide between both of them.
Hope this was useful!

 

[QuiglesWasHere]

Wanted to dedicate a post to saying RIP to grookey, homie lost his grassy glide :(

all the shell smash water types tho

Saying Grassy Glide came back in the first part of the DLC, Grookey might be viable now. I haven't really seen any Shell Smash mons about in my (albeitly very few) games of Little Cup though, so I might be biased.

 

[NotJackewu]

Saying Grassy Glide came back in the first part of the DLC, Grookey might be viable now. I haven't really seen any Shell Smash mons about in my (albeitly very few) games of Little Cup though, so I might be biased.

Grookey wants to run more than 4 moves, Grassy Glide is definitely one of the moves it would like to run. From my experience Grassy Glide can either win you games easily or lose you games because you wish you had whatever coverage move instead (Drain Punch for Steel types, Acrobatics for Foongus). I often find myself running coverage moves over Grassy Glide.

Grookey @ Eviolite
Ability: Grassy Surge
Level: 5
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Grassy Glide/Drain Punch
- Wood Hammer
- U-turn
- Knock Off

Grookey @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Grassy Surge
Level: 5
Tera Type: Grass/Flying
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off/Acrobatics/Drain Punch
- Swords Dance
- Grassy Glide/Acrobatics/Drain Punch

As you can tell, a lot of these sets are completely walled by Koffing, Vullaby, Pawniard or Foongus when youre running Grassy Glide, rather than slightly walled had you ran a coverage move instead. Alternative would be to swap Knock Off for Grassy Glide instead and make Grookey your late game sweeper (which probably would rather run Trailblaze over Grassy Glide anyways).

So in short, coverage is usually better than Grassy Glide hence why it's not used that much.

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

standing here (Shroodle) @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
Level: 5
Tera Type: Poison / Dark / Fighting
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Copycat
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off / Tera Blast
- Swords Dance

Some things never change I guess

i realize (Shroodle) @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Tera Blast
- Swords Dance
- Copycat

I returned to LC around a week ago with literally no idea what the meta looked like, since I last played before Home; I figured Mienfoo was back and the best mon in the tier, I figured that Voltorb-Hisui was probably one of the best mons off the basis Volty base was already pretty good and had theorymonned sets for it, and I learned that Vullaby isn't banned this generation and I hate it.

And in my quest to be an idiot on the ladder, I returned to my ol' faithful.

Copycat SD Shroodle banks on several factors: An opponent's team being at least somewhat chipped down, a Mienfoo paralyzed or otherwise so far out of commission that it isn't a problem (such as being dead), and any Dark types being in +2 Tera Blast range. This inherently is super risky, since extra priority can and will delete you, Shroodle's base bulk isn't particularly fantastic, and outside of Foongus (or Koffing if you yolo tera instantly), you don't really have many points of entry. Shroodle gets outsped by several very good mons like Wingull, Pondering My Orb, and Scarf Gothita, which does always limit you. These things haven't changed at all.

What has changed?

Pawniard not being EVERYWHERE.

Pawniard was the #1 best way to just completely shut down SD Shroodle, since you were forced to use a very not useful Tera Fighting to break it, which barely helped with any problem matchups outside of pawn, the one exception being Magnemite. Now? Tera Fire bonks Orb, deletes Foongus, Tink, Mag, and still dunks on the rare Pawniard floating around. Vullaby can still stop Copycat spam, but it does NOT want to talk a hit
+2 236 Atk Shroodle Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Orb takes over 100% from a +0 Gunk, 66-95% from a Tera Fire Blast at +0, and dies to anything at +2; Foongus takes 104% minimum from +2 Tera Blast. Tink gets deleted by Tera Fire Blast but that should go without saying if Foongus drops.

The real cool part is Copycat, because Copycat has probably only gone up in value as time has gone on. Fake Out Mienfoo does NOT cook vs Shroodle, and has to immediately run away in fear of a +2 Gunk straight up OHKOing as you're 1 speed faster. Gothita, Orb, Wingull, and Aloladiglett are all deathly afraid of tanking either a Gunk or Tera Blast, and all of the +1 speed prio moves aren't cooking since they're all on mons below 18 speed (Timburr gets gunk'd, Aqua Jet is on mons 16 speed or lower, and Dratini does not exist)







is it still bad? yes lol it's copycat shroodle what did you expect it to break the meta or smth
BUT it is incredibly funny to click Gunk 4 times in a row and win the video game so

 

[Colin]

Mienfoo is overpowered, and is deserving of a suspect -> a ban. It has both amazing offensive uses and defensive profile with Regenerator, making it extremely difficult to deal with and easy to exploit. High Jump Kick is the tier's best STAB attack, requiring a bulky resist to switch into it safely; Knock Off is an elite support move that provides safe progress, and Mienfoo gets U-turn to facilitate Gothita and other offensive threats while preventing double switching. Tera also buffs Mienfoo a lot, since it can use it to dodge a Gothita trapping attempt, resist/be neutral to Flying type attacks, etc while using this turn to make significant progress with the tools above. Swords Dance Mienfoo has also been used, and after a boost High Jump Kick one shots all non resists and tera can be used to break even bulky resists such as Foongus. Mienfoo forces both passive counter play into pivot sets, and speed control numerous or powerful enough to take down a Swords Dance Mienfoo factoring tera. Mienfoo is also versatile with its spreads, and often the counter play into 1 isn't good enough into another.

Defensive options:

- It is the premier option to deal with Mienfoo for a reason; It is bulky enough to take its hits and has great longevity, with spore to provide a big 1 time threat. It is however, very flawed, as it is weak to Gothita trapping it and can often be left a sitting duck after it uses spore if it doesn't get Sludge Bomb poisons. Although its also able to answer a variety of other threats, it does not appreciate Knock Off -> U-turn.

- I am dubious to put this one here, as it is extremely weak to Knock off and Stealth Rock and relies on Hurricane hitting. It does however, pose an important threat to Mienfoo after it has been chipped, and its ability to not get 2 shot on the switch w/o rocks can be used alongside other Mienfoo checks. It is not passive, but if used defensively, it needs hazard removal to be depended on for any length of time, which often is passive.

Those are the only relatively safe switch ins ranked B+ or higher on the VR. There are other options with sporadic usage such as Koffing, but all of them have significant problems preventing them from being easy to fit on a team.

Offensive options:

These are typically most effective once major damage or a knock has been secured on Mienfoo, but are much more numerous than the bulky switch ins. Choice Scarfers such as , and Naturally fast Pokemon such as pose a threat endgame vs Mienfoo, even if they cannot 1v1 it when it is healthy. A few of the faster options can 1v1 offensive variants and standard fast foo though, or can opt to tech it.

Mienfoo is a broken threat in the tier, and although there are many faster threats who can fight it, they won't usually 1v1 it when it is healthy, meaning it'll win those trades thanks to Regenerator, and there are very few defensive options to beat it. With the correct set for the mu, it can punish nearly any team, and there isn't a significant cost to using it since it is very uniquely practical defensively too. It is one of the main contributing factors towards a very centralized tier which even then has to submit to the large amount of momentum and damage it provides.

 

[Kipkluif]

Mienfoo is not remotely broken and banning it would make the tier way worse. In fact, I don't think there's a meta where it's been harder to pilot Mienfoo than this one.

None of the moves Mienfoo can click are completely safe. High Jump Kick has to be wary of (tera) ghost types and the more common Protect, Knock Off has to consider Tinkatink, and Fake Out and U-turn fear activating Vullaby's Weak Armor or Glimmet's Toxic Debris. On top of that, there's more catch-all answers that people are starting to use, like Larvesta and Mareanie.
The Swords Dance set is also good due to the offensive power of tera and the available mon pool, but it struggles to sweep as long as the opponent has faster pokemon left (I don't believe Trailblaze is worth it as you're completely left without coverage and are just fishing for a matchup where HJK hits enough), and you now have to play without Mienfoo's defensive utility.
Speaking of said defensive utility, Regenerator is great, but Mienfoo has had this in all generations and it's never been a broken factor, and it isn't here either. Going back to the VR, every pokémon down to B has a way to outdamage the 33% that you heal. Of course, the game isn't quite that linear, but Regenerator does not keep Mienfoo healthy in a broken way if plenty of the metagame can muscle through it. Defensive teras can help here, but the main ones (fairy and steel) both trade what matchups Mienfoo performs well in and open up other weaknesses.

Suspecting Mienfoo would be wholly undeserved and banning it would be awful for the tier. It's the glue that holds LC together in the way it soft-checks so many threats.

 

[Colin]

Mienfoo is not remotely broken and banning it would make the tier way worse. In fact, I don't think there's a meta where it's been harder to pilot Mienfoo than this one.

None of the moves Mienfoo can click is completely safe. High Jump Kick has to be wary of (tera) ghost types and the more common Protect, Knock Off has to consider Tinkatink, and Fake Out and U-turn fear activating Vullaby's Weak Armor or Glimmet's Toxic Debris. On top of that, there's more catch-all answers that people are starting to use, like Larvesta and Mareanie.
The Swords Dance set is also good due to the offensive power of tera and the available mon pool, but it struggles to sweep as long as the opponent has faster pokemon left (I don't believe Trailblaze is worth it as you're completely left without coverage and are just fishing for a matchup where HJK hits enough), and you now have to play without Mienfoo's defensive utility.
Speaking of said defensive utility, Regenerator is great, but Mienfoo has had this in all generations and it's never been a broken factor, and it isn't here either. Going back to the VR, every pokémon down to B has a way to outdamage the 33% that you heal. Of course, the game isn't quite that linear, but Regenerator does not keep Mienfoo healthy in a broken way if plenty of the metagame can muscle through it. Defensive teras can help here, but the main ones (fairy and steel) both trade what matchups Mienfoo performs well in and open up other weaknesses.

Suspecting Mienfoo would be wholly undeserved and banning it would be awful for the tier. It's the glue that holds LC together in the way it soft-checks so many threats.

Tinkatink can absorb knock off, but it risks getting 2 shot by HJK. Vullaby can only switch in and win if Mienfoo is chipped, and even then its risking Tera or a slow and bulky spread. Adamant Vullaby is a range, and not guaranteed to kill fast Pdef foo from full. Trailblaze certainly has opportunity cost, but just Knock Off and High Jump Kick are good enough to hit pretty much the entire meta hard, especially if Foongus has burned Spore and can no longer threaten Tera Steel. Glimmet cannot switch in safely, and even if it catches a fake out, most poison types can come in either on Glimmet or what comes in to take the HJK. Larvesta and Mareanie are both significantly flawed; Larvesta requires removal, and Mareanie cannot meaningfully make progress, especially against Gothita teams. In past generations, Regenerator was less broken on Mienfoo, since there were a wider variety of switch ins, and more scarf users and naturally fast pokemon like Abra who could threaten it immediately. Instead, Mienfoo both is harder to kill and does more damage with the turns that it gets.

No individual move from Mienfoo is safe to click in every scenario, but there is also no safe way to deny its progress. It gets many chances a game to make progress, and with its wide set/spread versatility most teams just have to guess which one they're fighting early. It is not a healthy part of the tier, and it needs to be suspected.

 

[Hacker]

I do not think Mienfoo should be suspect tested.

We have plenty of good options to help with it that all are plenty splashable to put on teams. , , , , and all do a solid enough job of checking it. The sub sd Tera Steel Foo will beat Foongus 1v1, but if Foongus is ur only response to Mienfoo on a team that is a result of poor building. Alongside the mentioned defensive options, we have faster offensive options like (lol), , , and which all can do a ton of damage to it while hitting it faster.

Also, as Kip mentioned, Mienfoo can help soft check a ton of meta threats with its pivot sets. Some of these are but are not limited to; , , , and

Mienfoo is not broken and is a more than healthy part of the current metagame.

 

[Fille]

I do not think Mienfoo should be suspect tested.

We have plenty of good options to help with it that all are plenty splashable to put on teams. , , , , and all do a solid enough job of checking it. The sub sd Tera Steel Foo will beat Foongus 1v1, but if Foongus is ur only response to Mienfoo on a team that is a result of poor building. Alongside the mentioned defensive options, we have faster offensive options like (lol), , , and which all can do a ton of damage to it while hitting it faster.

Also, as Kip mentioned, Mienfoo can help soft check a ton of meta threats with its pivot sets. Some of these are but are not limited to; , , , and

Mienfoo is not broken and is a more than healthy part of the current metagame.

I'm neither pro- or antiban Foo, but I'd like to point out some flaws in your little post here.

1.

The sub sd Tera Steel Foo will beat Foongus 1v1, but if Foongus is ur only response to Mienfoo on a team that is a result of poor building.

Sub SD Tera is indeed designed to beat said designated Foo answer, but if a mon is so strong that you need to dedicate at least 2 slots to beating it, that is a sign said mon is too much when one of these are designated hardcounter.

2. Mareanie isn't really a good answer anymore. Without the threat of scald burn, Mienfoo can pivot in more or less freely and pivot out again to mons that appreciate facing a Mareanie. Mare only wins 1v1, not in a Regen + 1-5 other mons scenario.

3. The fact thay we basically have no counter anymore, only checks, is a major red flag. I know that's mainly due to Tera and how Tera works, but it should still warrant some actual thinking aside from just how the metagame feels rn.

4. The only consistent answer on that list is 4x weak to rocks. The 2 offensive answers that are currently slower, are both also weak to rocks, while the last one is Foongus, which apparently isn't enough on its own. Especially when half of Mienfoos thing is longevity through Regenerator and easy pivoting, having your main answers be weak to the most common entry hazard means they're not good enough answers.

5. Soft checking the meta is nice, but not a reason to keep it. We have other good checks for all listed mons. They'll see more use if Foo goes.

I'm neither pro- or antiban Foo, but I'd like to point out some flaws in your little post here.

1.


Sub SD Tera is indeed designed to beat said designated Foo answer, but if a mon is so strong that you need to dedicate at least 2 slots to beating it, that is a sign said mon is too much when one of these are designated hardcounter.

2. Mareanie isn't really a good answer anymore. Without the threat of scald burn, Mienfoo can pivot in more or less freely and pivot out again to mons that appreciate facing a Mareanie. Mare only wins 1v1, not in a Regen + 1-5 other mons scenario.

3. The fact thay we basically have no counter anymore, only checks, is a major red flag. I know that's mainly due to Tera and how Tera works, but it should still warrant some actual thinking aside from just how the metagame feels rn.

4. The only consistent answer on that list is 4x weak to rocks. The 2 offensive answers that are currently slower, are both also weak to rocks, while the last one is Foongus, which apparently isn't enough on its own. Especially when half of Mienfoos thing is longevity through Regenerator and easy pivoting, having your main answers be weak to the most common entry hazard means they're not good enough answers.

5. Soft checking the meta is nice, but not a reason to keep it. We have other good checks for all listed mons. They'll see more use if Foo goes.

6. The faster checks only work if no Trailblaze on the Foo.

 

[wesh papillon]

It’s almost like the mechanic that allows Pokémon with limited checks to bypass said checks is a little sussy. Like yeah, ofc tera vull and tera foo is gonna seem busted from time to time when ur tera just happens to line up well vs a given mu.

 

[Inazuma-Fulgur]

It’s almost like the mechanic that allows Pokémon with limited checks to bypass said checks is a little sussy. Like yeah, ofc tera vull and tera foo is gonna seem busted from time to time when ur tera just happens to line up well vs a given mu.

this here is an issue, tera is much more influential offensively than defensively making it hard to discern whether tera or the individual offensive mon is problematic. except for rare cases like Flittle where it is solely due to tera.

And outside of Mienfoo we have so far had no mon that was both hard to kill and hard to exploit safely (for which tera isnt even a necessary factor, as mono fighting is a good typing to sponge neutral hits with) (foongus gets closest but it prefers not teraing, is much easier to trap than foo, easier to chip and forced to heal, much more restricted in sets, and you just get a sleep fodder and a steel type and you're fine really)
I'm just not gonna touch on Vullaby for now

But I will say if we want to keep tera legal there should be no mon whose different teras need significantly different counterplay. This is definitely true for Mienfoo, at least sort of true for Vullaby because of the immediate power of brave bird and the bigger threat of nasty plot, especially considering how good tera ghost vull is at avoiding priority and super effective hits as it doesnt even need tera ground or such for coverage or to avoid super effective hits (as it sponges most neutral attacks) near oneshotting any steel with +2 heatwave.
Also notable that Mienfoo turned Voltorb from an oppressive mon whose tera you needed to scout so that one of your two checks could tera and counter it to a mon which is still good but does not need any specific counterplay anymore, as foongus is now near neccessary on teams, and has become droppable of sorts being beaten 1v1 by the best mon in the tier which does not even need to worry about chip long term.

Mienfoo being offense defense and support all in one slot not accounting for sets other than the standard pivot feels silly I am not gonna lie. It's definitely the least droppable out of the big three

 

[Coconut]

Hi all,

We banned the building.

We also are freeing Gastly and Growlithe-Hisui.

That is all. Enjoy DLC2.

 

[Concept Everything]

Hi all,

We allow the building for 5 minutes.

That is all.

Coco we still have time to make this a reality

 

[Pokemon Trainer: Shadow]

Hi all,

We banned the building.

We also are freeing Gastly and Growlithe-Hisui.

That is all. Enjoy DLC2.

Y'all didn't even wait until Archuladon was implemented into Showdown...

 

[Mjmannella]

Yeah personally I would've waited until the update actually drops. Obviously Duraludon is busted but this is more in the interest of a consistent ban approach.

 

[skippergamez]

Guys, they said they would ban it.

besides it’s for the best for low ladder’s health (so freezai couldn’t ruin it)

 

[Toady]

It looks like Aipom lost Tail Slap, even with Minccino in the game. Is there a chance it gets unbanned? Or was there a reason it stayed banned even pre-DLC 2 without Tail Slap anyway?

 

[Troubadour1]

It looks like Aipom lost Tail Slap, even with Minccino in the game. Is there a chance it gets unbanned? Or was there a reason it stayed banned even pre-DLC 2 without Tail Slap anyway?

I think it still destroys everything with Fury Swipes

 

[Drifting]

Opening thoughts on new Pokemon:

Snivy

Snivy @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 236 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Tera Blast
- Glare
- Synthesis

It's good for sure, which should be a surprise to nobody who's ever played ORAS or SM. That being said, it does feel a little clunky to use right now because of fast Pokemon like Gastly or Scarf Growlithe giving it a lot of trouble. Don't fall for the noobtrap of Stellar Tera Blast, just go for the coverage, I have Fire here but I'm pretty sure literally anything would work, Maybe Ice for Vull. Glare seems good to catch mons that would like to switch into Snivy like Foongus or Vull maybe. I could see Knock being better than Synthesis since Synth just seems like a hard move for this to click right now, maybe it's better to just ruin some Foongus' day.

Scraggy

Scraggy @ Eviolite
Ability: Moxie
Level: 5
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Zen Headbutt

Scraggy @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Fire Punch

Again, good for sure. I think this will be very good. Right now its biggest problem is Scarf Growlithe being faster than it, which is why I quite like Tera Psychic to eat a CC from it as well as Mach's from Timburr, all the while making Zen more dangerous vs Foo and Foong. Scarf set is also very strong, which is part of what I think is a recurring theme of my opinions, Scarfers being very strong, especially on Pokemon like this, Gastly or Snivy that ppl will expect to be Evio. I don't think it's controversial to point out Scraggy is good, but that conversation around ability does exist. Shed Skin will obviously sometimes come into play with like, Gastly Wisp, but I think this mon and meta is too fast paced to make hoping for Shed Skin dice rolls very reliable. Moxie seems a lot better to me, but maybe Intimidate can allow you to set-up easier? Requires more testing. On Scarf just use Moxie.

Gastly

Gastly @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 36 Def / 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Sludge Bomb
- Dazzling Gleam

Gastly @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Trick

Evio set is same shit as before, still good. Dazzling Gleam can be whatever. Like with Scraggy, I think a surprise Scarf on this Pokemon can be super devastating and steal games because of how rigid the counterplay for the Evio set is.

Growlithe

Growlithe-Hisui @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rock Head
Level: 5
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Flare Blitz
- Tera Blast
- Close Combat

Same shit again. You can use Evio Flame Charge too just replace CC and maybe use a different Tera Type (Fire?). Pretty brainless and strong, if something gets banned first this is my prediction.

SNUBS

Snubbull @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 36 HP / 116 Atk / 196 Def / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Thief

I like this thing a lot actually. Fairy/Ground is classic coverage, Thunder Wave is lowkey the best move in the game and Thief lets u function as a sort of Pseudo-Pickpocket Tink, Except it's better than Tink because Intimidate and a Pure-Fairy typing allows it to check Fighting types, which is a huge boon. Your guess is as good as mine what Tera to use on this thing.

Timburr

Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 156 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch

This Pokemon isn't new, but it might as well be considering how useless it felt in DLC1 so I'm including it. With so many mons like Porygon, Minccino, and Growlithe. Mach priority feels more necessary than ever, and access to Guts for Gastly really seals the deal for me when I was gravitating towards this over Foo on some structures. Give it another shot for sure.

Elekid

Elekid @ Life Orb
Ability: Vital Spirit
Level: 5
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 12 Atk / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Psychic
- Knock Off

In a meta with no Diglett this Pokemon's obvious positive qualities really shine in my opinion, with the obvious biggest benefit over Holtorb being the ability to kill foo and foong with Psychic. Gaining access to Knock is cool to remove evio's on switches, but not cool enough to run Physical Elekid which still sucks. Eviolite could definitely be better but Elekid seems like a Pokemon that's here for a good time not a long time. Vital Spirit can be nice to catch Foongus' who aren't paying attention but Static is Static. Try Tera Blast Ice over Knock Off for ground types like Pinch, which are this mons biggest weakness and why I hesitate to call it the Orb Killer.

Minccino

Minccino @ Eviolite
Ability: Skill Link
Level: 5
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Knock Off
- Tidy Up
- Encore

People are treating this mon like It's the second coming of Aipom, but I just don't buy it considering how much weaker and frailer it is. Tidy Up is good, but removing your own hazards which would otherwise help sweep is pretty bad, and even if your normal resists are in poor condition, Tera makes it hard for this mon to sweep. It's good, but imo incredibly overrated and I haven't had significant trouble fighting it yet, and it strikes me as a crappy version of OU's Maushold, who if you've played the tier you know is pretty niche. I don't think Technician Loaded Dice is good.

Porygon

Porygon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
Level: 5
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tera Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Trick

Speaking of overreactions, this thing without recovery seems kind of... not broken? I suspect it's going to be purely offensive having lost access to Recover, and maybe Eviolite with Agility over Trick has some legs. I don't see a reason to use Trace unless you want to beat Trapinch for a specific teammate. This Pokemon needs more time to develop.

Trapinch

Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 36 Atk / 236 Def / 76 SpD / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- First Impression
- Crunch
- Feint

Without Diglett, this is the tiers Arena Trapper, and I think it is very good. Maybe we can ban Arena Trap but I'm not going to get my hopes up. Being able to remove a whole subset of mons that Gothita has problems with (i.e. Growlithe) is really strong, and First Impression is super good. Holtorb will need to run Protect again for sure. Might lead to awkward teambuilding scenarios where you can't be a Tera-type to escape both Goth and Pinch, and you'll have to make a coinflip. This pokemon will only get better as the meta stabilises I'm sure.

Pokemon that I haven't seen but want to:

Bulbasaur

Bulbasaur @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Weather Ball
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb

People were using Bellsprout sun, which I thought was terrible, but in theory Bulbasaur's far-superior bulk could make clicking growth a lot easier

Chinchou

I don't think this thing will be good. It doesn't check Holtorb like Wattrel does, and in general I think hit its expiration date in SS. It does still have Scald though, and in theory can be an ok Vull check. I think Foo is just going to veto it from viability but i would love to be wrong, I love this guy in ORAS.

Cranidos

Somehow I tricked myself into thinking this thing had Rock Head and Rock Polish when it has neither. Maybe Scarf Tera Rock Sheer Force Rock Slide with Zen for foo and EQ for steels? Maybe if dog gets banned this can be usable.

Doduo

I don't know what this does but it's good in SM so I'm including it. Worth mentioning is it lost Jump Kick for Low Kick, which is sadly a pretty big nerf for LC, with a base power of only 60 against Porygon and 40 vs Growlithe-H for example. Still works against Pawn though. Maybe good stats will carry it though.

Drilbur

This is going to have to compete directly with Toedscool as a ground-type Spinner, and I'm not sure if it wins that competition to be honest, being slower and having a worst matchup into Holtorb, as well as missing options like Spore. I wish this got Ice Spinner. It's good matchup into Glim/Tink means that it could still maybe be viable though. Maybe Rapid Spin SD EQ Tera-Ice could be a good offensive set to catch people off guard?

Golett

Golett @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 244 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Poltergeist
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off

I cannot stress enough how broken I think scarfers are right now. Tera Fighting Dynamic-Punch usually 2hko's Foo after rocks which is nice. I love this guy he's so epic. Stealing games with Confusion will be very funny.

Magby

Magby @ Oran Berry
Ability: Flame Body
Level: 5
Tera Type: Fighting / Ghost
EVs: 236 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Fire Punch
- Mach Punch
- Thunder Punch

I wonder if this is broken again. In theory, the Fighting / Ghost Tera 50/50 is devastating. If you bring in Magby vs Foo, and they Knock as you Tera Fighting they lose, and if you Ghost as they HJK they lose. Magby's new problem to deal with is fast bulky mons like Holtorb, perhaps making Flame Charge a requirement over Fire Punch, and having to predict random Tera Waters from Pokemon like Mudbray and Foongus stopping it in it's tracks. My prediction is that this pokemon will not get banned, but maybe I'm wrong as it is still dishonest af.

Torchic

This sucked in SS regardless of what dcae may tell you, but if I know anything about Speed Boost + Tera, I'd keep an eye on it.

Treecko

Treecko @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Seed
- Acrobatics
- Drain Punch

Maybe the new Shroodle? Very strong emphasis on "maybe".

Miscellaneous takes:

Stellar

Kind of a letdown tbh. Most sweeper in LC want to be clicking the same move repeatedly, and Stellar offers no benefit after the first use of a STAB move, and the power boost of 1.2x is just too weak to matter. The ONLY Pokemon I can see using this is Shellder, who tends to use a wide variety of attacks which sometimes need a tiny boost to secure an OHKO, but even then I'm not sure this is better than just spamming Rock. Maybe there's some crazy tech I don't understand because this mechanic requires a Ph.D for some reason, but I don't think this is super relevant to us.

General teambuilding

Not a lot has changed in terms of the good pokemon, all those core 7-8 Pokemon you'd see repeatedly in the last meta are still honestly just as necessary, and the new pile of broken threats this DLC has dumped on us has made teams stretched incredibly thin, some matchups really hard to cover, and counterplay for key pokemon like Vull or Gastly extremely urgent and rigid, where a single crit for example can lose you the whole game. This is why I think catching people off guard with random techs, unexpected scarfers, niche tera types, strange set-up sweepers, slapping Thunder Wave on randon mons and other general cheese is so strong. Building feels very centralised and playing feels very suffocating as a result, so catching people off-guard for one turn can usually create a momentum lead that is extremely hard to claw back from in a tier as quick and linear as LC, especially SV LC can be. Tera in general is a mechanic that I'm not a fan of because I think it adds ridiculous variance and guessing games but that's a topic I'm sure everyone else will be arguing about soon enough anyway. If you're a guy like Ace, Sylveon or Eniigma who are really creative and like these "random bullshit" metas, for lack of a better term, where unexpected sets can completely blow people up, I assume u will enjoy this a lot, but as someone who prefers stuff more slow, thoughtful, consistent and where each turn isn't so life-or-death, I am a little worried to be honest. I'm going to be optimistic though and hope as more time passes and stuff gets banned the meta stabilises into something less suffocating to build and play.

 

[grayblood]

It looks like Aipom lost Tail Slap, even with Minccino in the game. Is there a chance it gets unbanned? Or was there a reason it stayed banned even pre-DLC 2 without Tail Slap anyway?

bro just wants aipom unbanned so he can feel again with his aipom avi. (I felt the same way with trapinch so I feel ya)

I agree though aipom deserves a chance cuz hes awesome.

 

[TheTraininator]

Hey, so apparently, Pokémon HOME’s move relearner feature only checks if a Pokémon can know a move in Scarlet & Violet as opposed to if it can learn a move at that level, so if a Pokémon from a previous game is taught a move through TM or event or what have you that it only gets via level-up in S/V at a higher level than it currently is and you import it over, you can teach it that move regardless. Does this have any impact on Little Cup? The post itself mentions Porygon being able to learn Tri-Attack through import now in an LC, and that alone seems relevant.

 

[Merritt]

Hey, so apparently, Pokémon HOME’s move relearner feature only checks if a Pokémon can know a move in Scarlet & Violet as opposed to if it can learn a move at that level, so if a Pokémon from a previous game is taught a move through TM or event or what have you that it only gets via level-up in S/V at a higher level than it currently is and you import it over, you can teach it that move regardless. Does this have any impact on Little Cup? The post itself mentions Porygon being able to learn Tri-Attack through import now in an LC, and that alone seems relevant.

Mostly only relevant for Porygon, giving it access to Tri Attack and Recover, though it also gives some genderless, male only, and maybe a few female only Pokemon some moves (Magnemite should have access to Discharge, Bronzor gets Hypnosis, Golett has Dynamic Punch, the banned Rufflet should have access to Defog, ect.), but on the whole it's nothing too extraordinary.

Basically if you're looking to cross reference yourself look into the genderless/male only Pokemon, check their level up pool above Level 5, and if any of those moves are accessible at all in Gen 7 regardless of level or in Gen 8 via TM or TR, then it should be able to get it in Gen 9.

 

[Coconut]

Scraggy has been quickbanned by the Little Cup council.

Scraggy has the ability to completely take over a game and snowball it out of control given the right circumstances. Dragon Dance has become easier than ever to set up with the addition of Tera, and allowing Scraggy to score a kill to bring in a check often becomes more challenging because of Moxie. Even people who disagree will understand that Scraggy has too much influence on the outcome of a game to be a long-term option in this metagame. Removing it now was likely the first of our necessary options to ensure we keep a stable meta

Kris Marty thank you for implementing this.

 

[Éric]

LC ban something without actually giving proper, non-vague arguments or providing replays challenge: impossible

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lcwc-iv-week-one.3732817/page-3#post-9904216
here you go buddy

 

[wesh papillon]

This ban is def a step In the right direction. I think magby or screens should be looked at next, they are still extremely good without scraggy, and imo tera pushes to an unreasonable degree. Id still expect ho to be very popular in lcwc even with no scrag. Tera typing into resistances and immunity makes it much easier to set up then in previous gen, and protect can easily scout defensive tera types.