Metagame Metagame Discussion

[Kipkluif]

I don't think Sticky Web is broken, for reasons I'll shortly summarize: I do not experience the same problems defogging them away with Drifloon, if you did, it's very much possible to put both a Drifloon and either of the spinners on a team, there is counterplay when webs are on the field like Pawniard, Shellder, Unburden Shroodle, the match isn't immediately over because of them. You can make the argument that webs creates very linear and undesirable games, I will not argue against that.
Another point that should be considered in what to suspect/ban is strain put on the teambuilder. I think this is very much something Growlithe-Hisui does, that Sticky Web really doesn't. The counterplay to Sticky Web is things you might already expect on a team: Flying types, wincons that boost their speed, hazard removal, Pawniard. Meanwhile, counters to growlithe are barely existent, to the point where people run Gible, a pokémon that is completely useless outside of switching into Growlithe two or three times per game. There are a few other answers, but all force teams around them to be built very specifically to support them, since they don't accomplish much outside of growlithe, aren't sustainable throughout a longer game, or both. I think Growlithe is very fun to play with, but it's clearly the problem here instead of Sticky Web.
(PS I haven't seen enough of Gothita to call it broken in this meta and Crabrawler is even less broken than webs, who even wants that banned?)

 

[Hacker]

Webs are stupid as hell and I don't really see how anybody can think otherwise. I don't really have a lot to say that hasn't been said but I have responses to what has been said in favor of keeping webs.

you can (and should) build your team in a way that allows you to position yourself to not lose to webs, and if that doesnt have to do with defogging them away, thats okay. you have fast flyings like gull watt and floon

And how do you do this reasonably without dedicating way too many resources into attempting to check them and put yourself at a massive disadvantage vs standard teams? Wingull is good vs webs and is honestly just a good overall mon yes but there are plenty of ways you can get through wingull with webs with techs like tera electric crab, speed boosting dog, pawniard still beats it, you could even run something like bramblin that would currently just completely shut down wingull in the first place, wattrel and drifloon are both speed tie machines that are inconsistent at best at handing webs. The standard drifloon set dies to icy wind into hydro pump so have fun removing webs with it!

bulky mons that take any hit and ko back like bray crab grimer mareanie zorua grookey

Not once while playing webs have I struggled vs any of these mons I don't know what you're talking about. It is relatively easy to build around every one of those guys with webs, bray and crab are checked by mons like floon as well as get pressured by dog. Grimers best quality is trading one for mon with a pokemon and that applies to webs too, it is relatively easy to limit grimer to only getting one killed if the webs user has positioned themselves well. Mareanie does an actual decent job of handling all the traditional webs threats but it is still super pressured by things like dog and mainstays on webs like sandile/mudbray and even tho they cant reliably switch into mareanie, mareanie cant reliably switch into them.

edit after talking in discord: yes if you put some of these mons together they could have a playable webs matchup but at that point i think the majority of people could agree that webs are at bare minimum too demanding and thus unhealthy in teambuilding.

a pawn that makes the webs user even think twice about setting them up, even stuff thats not as splashable but maybe even more effective like tspikes or seed shroodle.

Pawniard has an undeniably good webs matchup yes, but it is also kept in check by mons that webs commonly use like crabrawler, sandile, mudbray, and even the most recent addition to lc growlithe as it can tech stuff like will o wisp to beat pawniard. As for t spikes and seed shroodle, they are exactly what you say they are, they are unsplashable. Running t spikes when a poison is mandatory on every team and in a good amount of matchups they honestly just wouldn't do anything. And for seed shroodle it gets to avoid being too slow because of sticky webs for one use while you cant even guarantee much besides trading it for a mon which at minimum is neutral to the webs user if not just outright positive because at that point you will have lost your only good speed control.

I don't think Sticky Web is broken, for reasons I'll shortly summarize: I do not experience the same problems defogging them away with Drifloon, if you did, it's very much possible to put both a Drifloon and either of the spinners on a team

I have already said this to you in the discord but this is a really easy way to build a team that just isnt good or bare minimum means that webs themselves are too overcentralizing.

there is counterplay when webs are on the field like Pawniard, Shellder, Unburden Shroodle

I have already talked about pawniard and unburden shroodle so I am not gonna bother doing that again. Shellder wins vs webs in tournament play only if people let it set up for free on surskit, it gets very minimal oppurtunities to setup on anything else reliably and even mons like pawniard and crabrawler can live a hit and trade with it.


tl;dr please ban webs

 

[Kipkluif]

I have already said this to you in the discord but this is a really easy way to build a team that just isnt good or bare minimum means that webs themselves are too overcentralizing.

Rapid Spin no longer is a tool only to deter hazards; with the speed boost, it has offensive qualities as well, making it more versatile and far less of a sacrifice to put on a team. Drifloon is a phenomenal pokémon and running it on any team can hardly be called not good. On top of that, in the non-bolded part I said that I do not experience the defogging issues, so I dont find this necessary in the first place, so webs are not overcentralizing, as I try to argue in the 2nd part of my post.

Shellder wins vs webs in tournament play only if people let it set up for free on surskit, it gets very minimal oppurtunities to setup on anything else reliably and even mons like pawniard and crabrawler can live a hit and trade with it.

There are plenty of opportunities for Shellder to set up against webs, with or without Memento support. Crabrawler and Pawniard only live a hit if you run a specific (imo bad) Shellder set, tera water or special Hydro Pump get at the very least an 80% chance to OHKO.

None of this is what I wanted to say with my post, which is that Growlithe is clearly far more overcentralizing, and that it should be suspected instead.

 

[Éric]

Hacker you seem to misunderstand what im saying completely. you reply to me as if i was saying all those examples i gave were totally foolproof webs counters, which they are not and i didnt say they were. you dont slap a wingull and just beat webs, thats not how it works w any pokemon and any playstyle. im saying they help. maybe grimer wont just 6-0 webs, because it wont and its not supposed to, but its bulky enough to trade, just as you said, and thats really helpful and might be game changing. maybe wattrel doesnt beat crabrawler alone, but if it forces a tera electric, diglett will revenge kill it for example. crabrawler or sandile do indeed switch in once vs pawn under webs, but that leaves them too weak, so maybe wingull will finish them up. i think this tier has enough resources like that to handle webs even if they stay up, is all im saying

 

[Greedy_eb]

While y'all are having fun arguing over Sticky Webs and Hisuian-Growlithe, here are my opinions on the mons that got shown in the Scarlet Violet DLC trailers having only played SV LC. Take all of my opinions with 0 grains of salt, they are all 100% factual.


The Teal Mask DLC (ETA Fall 2023)
Looks bad don't touch it.

Looks bad don't touch it.

Looks funny (and bad), enjoy it on Sun teams.

Haven't seen this mon since DPP because of bans, would be surprised if Gen 9 allowed it at all. 19 Speed, Eviolite + Roost, Swords Dance, Stealth Rocks, mon looks like a pain to deal with.

Played one ever in my brief play of SS LC, mon was not that good in my opinion but looks decent on Sticky Webs if those are still around by then.

Manual rain has been usable the whole generation so far, so an auto Sun setter with Tera Fire in the tier sounds super strong. Can't wait to use it.

This mon looks obnoxious to deal with. Not excited to see another 19 Speed Normal type clicking Fake Out on everything.

Looks worse than Sentret, don't touch it.

Have fun in Ubers, I saw 20 Speed with Speed Boost and Tinted Lens as abilities and clicked out.

It's cute I guess?

Canadians rejoice, I heard they like this mon. No clue how it's hitting Hisuian Zorua, but y'all can figure it out I won't touch this mon.

Look SUPER bad, don't use it.


The Indigo Disk DLC (ETA Winter 2023)
Only reason I could see myself touching this mon is if Chlorophyll isn't banned from DLC 1 to DLC 2.

Meowth and Aipom had an 18 Speed baby, not sure why you'd use it over the other two unless Technician Tera Normal Tail Slap nukes the tier.

Not sure what this mon would do, LC UU/RU for you.

Looks cool and fun to use, not sure how good it will be but I'll have fun with it probably.

Cute mon.

I know it gets Memento and Encore from VGC, not sure how this mon will make use of them. Maybe on Shell Smash spam teams?

Looks bad, won't be using it.

Why does this have 105 SpA. LC UU mon here though way too slow unless someone makes good LC Trick Room.

Did not know the stats were so bad until I searched it in the teambuilder, would use Poochyena before I touched this.

Flou they got your mon here I better see you hit #1 on the ladder with it.

No Diglett so it could be bro's time to shine as the best legal trapper in SV LC. Also has 100 Atk for no good reason.

Better than Feebas worse than Poochyena.

 

[tazz]

Other posts have covered problematic Pokémon pretty well, so I'd like to raise a development problem I think worth considering. The list of threats that people are looking at for potential suspects is long: Growlithe-H and Webs are the most immediate picks, but even beyond those two we have other candidates basically waiting in line for their own suspects. I've seen discussions about Crabrawler, Voltorb-H and more just off the top of my head.

This is a common problem in developing metagames, one usually solved by time. Under normal conditions we would have almost a year to suspect Pokémon one by one before the big trophy tournaments come along. This time, however, we have at least three major curveballs thwarting and delaying this process: Pokémon Home, DLC 1 and DLC 2. We are currently going through the first (and likely smallest) of these phases, but already we have multiple new threats to contend with, some of which are arguably banworthy.

I think the most reasonable and efficient solution for this prolonged undeveloped period is to extend quickbans further into the development process than we normally would. Votes are obviously ideal, but they have the significant drawback of taking forever. We don't have that luxury thanks to GameFreak's new release schedule, so when it comes to votes that are essentially forgone conclusions (the Girafarig test, for example), we should use quickbans in the interest of time.

So, when it comes to the current suspect candidates, what should our approach be under this principle? It looks like webs are a bit more contentious at this point, even though they are pretty likely to get the ban hammer. Growlithe-H, on the other hand, seems to have pretty overwhelming support for a ban. Defenders of the dog definitely exist, but the ones I have talked to still acknowledge that if suspected now it would definitely be banned. If we suspected these Pokémon individually it would be midway through LCPL before we see both gone, but I would prefer us to be looking at the next suspect candidate by that point. The best solution, in my opinion, is to ban Growlithe-H by council vote and suspect webs within the next week or so.

This is my own opinion on the best course of action, not necessarily the rest of the council's; it's just one of the paths we could take. I'd like to see some more discussion on Growlithe-H to ensure that my discord conversations are actually representative of general consensus. If Growlithe is more contentious than I assumed this argument falls apart, so we need more complete information (or at least to give any Growlithe defenders the chance to make a case) before the council can consider my proposal.

 

[Acehunter1]

Just going to give my two cents about the potential next suspect. Personally, I don't believe Sticky Web should be the target of the next suspect. I do feel that there should be some kind of action, but I think there are two potentially more problematic elements in this meta that deserve examination : Growlithe-Hisui and Voltorb-Hisui.


I'll start by touching on webs. Personally, I've never seen webs as being broken this generation. From people saying they were not good at the beginning to people saying they are broken now, I've always seen them as an inherent part of the metagame that is neither bad nor overbearing.

i know none of these individually is like a webs killer of course, that doesnt exist (just like a bulky offense killer doesnt exist either). but using a combination of these gives you outs.

I think Éric has explained very well in his post what webs counterplay looks like. Removal can be hard in this meta with many Ghost types, but they do help to deal with webs, and so can every common member of teams, to a certain extent. Setting webs is not always a trivial task, especially more than once in a game, and not being able to remove webs once they are set up doesn't mean an automatic loss. I think that webs is a unique archetype in the meta. It is not really centralizing, as I believe it is still in a minority of games and we rarely see mirrors. I think it brings archetype diversity to the tier, and we should only consider banning it if it is clearly overcentralizing or broken, which I don't think is currently the case.


About Growlithe-Hisui, I don't think there is much that I can say that hasn't been said already. I do think it's overcentralizing, since it is seen in almost every match, with often games being decided by it. However, I will say that people using usually less seen Pokemon such as Gible, Larvitar or Makuhita isn't inherently a bad thing. Growlithe-Hisui can make some Pokemon better and some Pokemon worse, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. However, I do believe that it puts too much of a strain on the builder and is too impactful during games. I think it should be at least suspected.

Growlithe-Hisui, on the other hand, seems to have pretty overwhelming support for a ban. Defenders of the dog definitely exist, but the ones I have talked to still acknowledge that if suspected now it would definitely be banned. If we suspected these Pokémon individually it may be midway through LCPL before we see both gone, but I would prefer us to be looking at the next suspect candidate by that point. The best solution, in my opinion, is to ban Growlithe-H by council vote and suspect webs within the next week or so.

Personally, I've never been a fan of council votes, but here, I do agree that a council ban may be beneficial for the sake of time. We've seen what happened with the Girafarig suspect, and while I think suspects are usually better, I wouldn't mind a council vote on Growlithe-Hisui here. I do believe that we shouldn't make council votes the norm, or more often than they should be however.


Finally, personally, I've found Voltorb-Hisui to be even harder to deal with than Growlithe-Hisui. For Growlithe, while it can create a lot of strain on teambuilding and put a lot of pressure during games, if you have the tools to beat it, it is usually manageable. There are also some Pokemon that counter it (Gible, Makuhita, Larvitar), and if you have one of these, it is sometimes not even something you have to worry about. However, I can't say the same about Voltorb-Hisui, and I think it might become too overbearing for the meta at some point. While it doesn't pack the same immediate power as Growlithe-Hisui, the Electric/Grass combination is extremely hard to deal with. Electric types are usually checked by Ground types, but the access to Grass STAB removes almost all of the options. Grass types like Grookey or Foongus do resist both of its STABs, but it's so easy for Voltorb-Hisui to click Volt Switch and gain free momentum, either on the switch or not. This includes Voltorb-Hisui itself. I think Voltorb-Hisui mirrors are somewhat worse than Mienfoo mirrors in SS, since both players often have Volt Switch as by far the best option no matter what, while Mienfoo had several options available. The only defensive checks to Voltorb-Hisui that don't allow it to gain momentum are Wattrel and Toedscool. The former can take a good chunk from Stealth Rock and Tera Blast, while the latter can get worn down over the course of a game. Voltorb-Hisui is also the fastest Pokemon in the tier, making offensive checks limited to Choice Scarf users and Nymble.

I do admit having dog in the tier makes it much harder to run anti webs stuff when wingull isn't an adequate fire resist

Voltorb-Hisui is also, in my opinion, the main factor that makes Wingull less good than it was before, thus potentially making Sticky Web better. Voltorb-Hisui might be ok for now, but I think that it could become problematic in the near future, unless we get more drops from DLCs soon.

TLDR: I'm against banning Sticky Web. I'm against a Sticky Web suspect before action on Growlithe-Hisui. I support both suspecting and council voting on Growlithe-Hisui, with a preference for the latter. I support keeping an eye on Voltorb-Hisui :)

Thanks for reading.

**Edit: I forgot to say this, but I disagree with suspecting Sticky Web only one week after a Growlithe-Hisui quickban. I don't think one week is enough time to give an idea of the strength of Sticky Web in a meta without Growlithe-Hisui.

 

[Fiend]

​

The LC council has voted and banned Growlithe-Hisui. With Flare Blitz and Head Smash supported by Rock Head, Growlithe-H forces the opponent to respond to strong attacks with few downsides. Growlithe-H has warped teambuilding to cater for its high powered STABs, outspeed and revenge its Choice Scarf set, and attempt to limit how often it enters the field. Tera-Fire or Rock supercharges Growlithe-H and narrows possible midground responses. Other times, Tera-Grass can be opted for to assist Eviolite sets win turns and have favorable exchanges versus would-be counterplay. The diversity of strong options has made Growlithe-H one of the most important Pokemon in the tier. Games often come down to how well the impact of Growlithe-H is mitigated. Various common avenues of supporting Growlithe-H, such as Gothita and Sticky Web, have been discussed as potential suspects as it has been felt these combinations have been an immense burden on the tier. However, due to the common element of Growlithe-Hisui, the stand alone qualities of Growlithe-Hisui, and the overwheliming sentiment of the community and council, Growlithe-H has been banned.

Kris Marty tagged to implement this ban. Thank you.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

What if… Eviolite got banned. Just think about it. Almost every team uses it on every Pokémon, it’s so good it eliminates a lot of variation in held items. With no Eviolite, we’d see more choice items, more leftovers, more niche items, more fun. Eviolite is just too strong.

 

[Kaboom]

What if… Eviolite got banned. Just think about it. Almost every team uses it on every Pokémon, it’s so good it eliminates a lot of variation in held items. With no Eviolite, we’d see more choice items, more leftovers, more niche items, more fun. Eviolite is just too strong.

Eviolite would lead to life orb, choice scarf and heavy duty boots, on 99% of Pokemon. Choice band/specs provides generally a negligible power increase over life orb at level 5, so not usually worth being move locked. Leftovers sees no play in the generations eviolite does not exist. Gaining 1hp a turn is not worth your item slot, the available mons are too frail to get any long term value. Funs extremely subjective, but given LC has allowed eviolite since it's inception the majority enjoy it.

 

[grape tylenol]

What if… Eviolite got banned. Just think about it. Almost every team uses it on every Pokémon, it’s so good it eliminates a lot of variation in held items. With no Eviolite, we’d see more choice items, more leftovers, more niche items, more fun. Eviolite is just too strong.

Unfortunately I can't see Eviolite getting banned from LC... if you're interested in a LC metagame without Eviolite, you can always check out DPP LC or the recently revived ADV LC!

 

[Kipkluif]

I think it's finally time to ban Terastalization in LC.
I've hated the mechanic ever since it first came out, it settled down for a bit, but now it breaks more things than ever before.
Voltorb-Hisui has no true switchins. It's already plenty hard to answer with just its stabs, but Wattrel or bulky Grass types can do the job. Until it decides to turn into either a Fire or an Ice type, which you also have to guess between, because both are viable and are indistinguishable before Voltorb presses the button.
Shroodle benefits from Grookey being in the tier, allowing it to run a sweeping unburden set, but it's movepool is a bit lacking in coverage. Until it once again gets any STAB option it wants (Ground is most popular for Pawniard/Grimer-Alola, but Water to hit Mudbray or Dark to power up it's Knock Off also have upsides) and you are once again left praying that your switchin is actually a switchin.
Sticky Web massively benefits from any mon randomly being able to turn into a spinblocker by becoming a Ghost type. It gives a safety net that cannot reasonably be played around and also is something you can't counteract with your own tera, as your opponent will still be immune to Rapid Spin.
These are the main things that Tera breaks in the current meta, and I think it's sufficient to point at a common denominator. Nevertheless, there's more mons where it plays an unhealthy factor (Shellder, Numel etc.) and several mons on the banlist that abused it (Diglett, Flittle). I don't see how this mechanic can reasonably be kept in the current state of the metagame.

 

[SpyderMarz]

Hi so is trick room valid in LC? It seems like it would be good with the amount of good mons that get the move, and the amount of mons in LC only held back by their lackluster speed (i.e. snover). I just never see it used.

 

[PigWarrior19]

Hi so is trick room valid in LC? It seems like it would be good with the amount of good mons that get the move, and the amount of mons in LC only held back by their lackluster speed (i.e. snover). I just never see it used.

No TR is not good in singles there aren’t too many good setters or abusers and not enough turns to truly abuse TR with the abusers we have. TR is very relevant in doubles Lc though, it has a much faster pace with two mons out you can position more freely and we have more relevant setters that were banned in singles.
Note I feel this question is more suited for the simple questions simple answers thread

 

[Baloochi]

So hear me out

Drifloon and Shroodle as a defensive core. Shroodle is immune to ghost a weakness of drifloon. And drifloon is immune to a weakness of ground and fighting types that could threaten shroodle.

Shroodle ( prankster)can help set up with toxic for a hex set for drifloon. Along with acid spray to lower sp.def. Along with copycat and k-off shenanigans.

it could be interesting to see this core work together.


After looking into floon moves I realized the impact of this toxic mouse ,and it’s nearly always alive due to parting shot with priority

The Ballon gets new coverage/stab

• T-bolt(cuz like electric is good coverage and can threaten water and other flying types)
• Icy wind ( speed control is always good and ice coverage for ground, other fliers and the dragons are good along with pitiful flying stab this hits most flying weak mons hard)
• Psychic(for the switch in to fighting types other shroodles , Mariene and glimmet)
• Trick( take the item away since lc rn is item dependent)
• Imprison( while much more niche than other moves this can be used to prevent opposing defoggers to remove hazards)
• Sunny day/rain dance( while not optimal it could be used in conjunction with other mons for an interesting idea.Not saying it’s good just noteworthy)
• Calm mind ( while frail it can sit on most shroodle counters and get stat boosts )
• Tailwind( so it and teammates might be able to outspeed h-orb)

The mouse continues to be a nuisance

• Encore( punish so that drifloon can destroy or allow a forced switch and then k-off another Mon)
• Taunt( for defoggers and set up sweepers)
• U-turn ( for more switching shenanigans and decent damage)
• Endure( to guaranteed survive any move and make the most of toxic. Kinda a lol but could be used same as protect)
• Rest/sleep talk( if this Mon is built tanky it could be used to stop burn or para with the added longevity of rest but even then this most likely dies fast but could have a few niche uses)
• Facade( because status is common and this is stab)
• Swictheroo( incase your item gets k-off ed )

 

[Baloochi]

Yep, with the rise of grass types resists become vital introducing….the funny blob of green poison goo.

it holds a unique ability in liquid ooze to harm any drain punch or giga drain making it a good pawn partner.

With 73 base hp stat and 53 base in each defense and eviolite/ gluttony and berry shenanigans(Read:belch) it can be tanky. It’s also a mixed attacker.

While not threatening in the offense it could be a good wall.

Goo 2 electric bogaloo

Moves:

• Belch(prime with gluttony and Oran berry for damage)
• Thunder/fire/ice punch (because this glob can throw hands and coverage)
• Giga drain( to annoy everyone with healing and attacking with grass type is decent)
• Pain split ( yep… more recovery off of pain of others)
• T-spikes( wheeeeeeee. More t spikes)
• I considered mentioning destiny but tbh not only niche but easily seen and prevented
• Gunk shot ( more poison attacks)
• Poison jab( better accuracy)
• ice beam( for special sets)
• Mud shot( why? You know what I don’t wanna know but good coverage for I guess)
• Seed bomb ( grass strong coverage)
• Shadow ball( for psychic types )
• T-wave(para go brrrr)
• Yawn ( if this gains a defensive profile this could threaten something trying to set up or go for a greedy kill)
• Sludge bomb ( for special variations
• Body slam( it’s decent in hitting for neutral damage)
• Curse( to have a small offensive pressure )

 

[wesh papillon]

NUMEL and SHELLDER
by wesh papillon
​

Numel and shellder are fucking stupid. They are both centralising and degenerate, they are, in my opinion, too high reward for how unrisky they are, and they abuse inherent versatility of tera much more than anything else.

You already know what these pokemon do, so let's look at numbers and pictures instead!

All of these teams either won or lost to another shellder or numel.

Shellder:
10 | Shellder | 6 | 25.00% | 33.33% |
7 | Shellder | 9 | 37.50% | 44.44% |
9 | Shellder | 7 | 29.17% | 85.71% |

Shellder seemingly becomes better and better each week, as more ppl get a feel for it and as new tera types get discovered. Week 3 is particularly outrageous, winning 6/7 games.

Numel:
12 | Numel | 5 | 20.83% | 40.00% |
9 | Numel | 7 | 29.17% | 42.86% |
7 | Numel | 8 | 33.33% | 50.00% |

Numel honestly has a much lower win rate then I was expecting. While numel is still annoying. At the very least, the data suggests it is at best hard to pilot, and at worst simply not very good.

34 | Numel / Shellder | 3 | 12.50% | 33.33% |
45 | Shellder / Numel | 2 | 8.33% | 50.00% |
20 | Shellder / Numel | 4 | 16.67% | 75.00% |

The combination of both, while smaller in sample size, does indicate that ppl are winning more with the core as time goes on. It also suggests that numel might not be as good on balance, but that it is significantly better on more offensive teams.

Counter argument: Ppl who won vs shellder and numel without using either themselves

counterpleas 1: be the best player in the tier

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-1904366631: vs

BBB uses grassy seed Drifloon with tera ground to beat numel, and then keeps the grimer high for shellder
On the other end, it could be argued that the opponent misplayed the tera, and could've won with Tera Water shellder

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-707654 vs

BBB makes use of the very niche croagunk, as well as TWO memento users AND clear smog shellos.

Counter play 2: strong prio

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-707630 vs

Meowth kinda just owned lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-703450 vs

elfu makes good use of shroodle and nymble to win vs ho

Counter play 3: be lucky

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-1913781138-pmg9akpxkjvehq9pqf859wmzaos84kypw vs

Coll got lucky lol

Counter play 4: tera

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-706549 vs

the numel dies turn 2 to the rare Tera Water orb

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-704525 vs

Tera Steel foongus at almost full is used to beat special shellder

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-1904351391-as00673w5ler8776b8nzjo1k8tdrsbrpw

Tera Water toed walls special shellder

Other:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-705397 vs

Tack almost instantly loses her 2 best pokemon ,_,

So basically, they force very niche counter play, tera mix ups, or can just flop if u fuck up.

Overall I think they are both unhealthy, but from what ive seen researching this, SHELLDER is the problematic one here, and not numel.

I therefore believe shellder should be SUSPECT TESTED and BANNED

 

[Kaboom]

Going to be breaking this post up so its easier to digest.

NUMEL and SHELLDER
by wesh papillon
​

Numel and shellder are fucking stupid. They are both centralising and degenerate, they are, in my opinion, too high reward for how unrisky they are, and they abuse inherent versatility of tera much more than anything else.

You already know what these pokemon do, so let's look at numbers and pictures instead!

Disclosure: While I have not touched CG LC in a team tour this gen, I have been testing and providing teambuilder support for my team through the weeks, so I like to believe I have a reasonable view of the metagame. This will be an anti-suspect post. Will be addressing this towards ofc, people familiar with LC, but also to people who may not have as much knowledge.

For a decently large post, theres a lack of substance beyond buzzwords, and vague statements. Making it sound like it isn't necessary to go in depth on the sweeping capabilities of the duo is super shallow.

Numel and Shellder are extremely competent at cleaning up games, hitting extremely hard when boosted and able to take advantage of common Pokemon to get boosts in, but they're not often able to just bring it home after one free turn. Ground Fire as a typing provides Numel solid STAB options and it has decent bulk uninvested, but its middling speed means you're typically forced to either flame charge first, or hope your typing + bulk lets you clean up chipped team. Tera Grass is the dominant form and allows you to outplay a Mudbray, or Alolan Diglett. at the cost of a much worse typing defensively vs the likes of Unburden Shroodle. On top of this you're vulnerable to nearly every priority (unable to fit protect a la Shellder usually), and outsped at +2 by Drifloon and Shroodle with Unburden active. Shellder is trickier, w/ Shell Smash access, being capable of running Rock, Water or Dark Teras, and having very high physical bulk + damage output. Its' tradeoff is worse moves in terms of coverage, having to rely on Skill Link Rock Blast to secure KOs on neutral targets. The diversity in teras means the person staring down the Shellder often has to weigh odds on what it could be and answer accordingly, and while this could appear as a crapshoot, its often a test of skill and knowledge. This should be rewarded, and can be as Shellders answers are modified slightly by each Tera.

Competent teams should and have been packing reasonable counterplay in traditional checks, and terastallization. For Numel this would be pressuring it to deny set up opportunities as much as possible, but for Pokemon the likes Mudbray (Rock Tomb, Roar if you fear tera grass or HH), Shroodle (RKs a weak or tera'd Numel w/ Unburden or Encore if Prankster), numerous tera Dragon or Water (Mudbray, Alolan Grimer, Voltorb-H). Shellder meanwhile generally hits the metagame for neutral damage and misses out on OHKOs without tera Water or Rock, so you have to hit it hard on the set up turn or go into a Pokemon capable of abusing Shell Smash's downside to OHKO after tanking a hit. Foongus can match tera rock with Tera steel and OHKO back, or just live in a case of no Tera available. The Tera Dragon Pokemon also resist water so they double up on utility answering both. Shellder and Numel also share a speed stat, so the aforementioned Shroodle works as well, on top of Drifloon who can wisp or hex for reliable damage on Shellders low Special Defense. I will not ignore that these two work play off each other very well, both wearing down their answers and getting your opponent to consume Teras. But the last major obstacle for these two sweeping are priority moves. Meowth with Feint and Fake out reliably tackles both after they take a hit, Pawniard, esp with a Life Orb hits both with Sucker Punch very hard, Nymble decks a chipped Numel, and can Sucker Punch a weakened Shellder as well. Outside of their offensive potential, theres much to be desired defensively when you're running 2 Pokemon on a team that often can't switch in without ruining potential. Numels MU against the ever-prominent Hisuian Voltorb does lessen that mark against it though.

You could argue Stockpile Numel and Special Shellder cause enough of a shakeup in defensive tools, but both have seen very low usage relative to their standard counterparts, while having stricter answers. Was going to provide a metric ton of calcs w/ the VR, but I don't want to pull a Levi when people can calc themselves and generate conclusions.

You already know what these pokemon do, so let's look at numbers and pictures instead!

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All of these teams either won or lost to another shellder or numel.

Shellder:
10 | Shellder | 6 | 25.00% | 33.33% |
7 | Shellder | 9 | 37.50% | 44.44% |
9 | Shellder | 7 | 29.17% | 85.71% |

Shellder seemingly becomes better and better each week, as more ppl get a feel for it and as new tera types get discovered. Week 3 is particularly outrageous, winning 6/7 games.

Numel:
12 | Numel | 5 | 20.83% | 40.00% |
9 | Numel | 7 | 29.17% | 42.86% |
7 | Numel | 8 | 33.33% | 50.00% |

Numel honestly has a much lower win rate then I was expecting. While numel is still annoying. At the very least, the data suggests it is at best hard to pilot, and at worst simply not very good.

34 | Numel / Shellder | 3 | 12.50% | 33.33% |
45 | Shellder / Numel | 2 | 8.33% | 50.00% |
20 | Shellder / Numel | 4 | 16.67% | 75.00% |

The combination of both, while smaller in sample size, does indicate that ppl are winning more with the core as time goes on. It also suggests that numel might not be as good on balance, but that it is significantly better on more offensive teams.

These sample sizes, especially not combined into total usage, or w/ any context do not paint any significant picture, and the lack of even mentioning which of these teams in the screenshots won or lose isn't misleading, but it definitely isn't helpful. We aren't suddenly discovering how to properly use these two mons, there has been a notable amount of team homogeneity/straight repeats over the weeks. The only conclusion you can draw is that they're prominent and hover around a 50% winrate. But, you mentioned some replays so I will respond to those.

Counter argument: Ppl who won vs shellder and numel without using either themselves
counterpleas 1: be the best player in the tier

View attachment 540494View attachment 540467
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-1904366631: vs


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-707654 vs

BBB makes use of the very niche croagunk, as well as TWO memento users AND clear smog shellos.


BBB uses grassy seed Drifloon with tera ground to beat numel, and then keeps the grimer high for shellder
On the other end, it could be argued that the opponent misplayed the tera, and could've won with Tera Water shellder

These are healthy adjustments to the metagame that we want to see, BBB brought a solid team and piloted it perfectly. He is a top player and this match clearly showed that skill is rewarded. Not quite sure the point of including this.
Shellos Croagunk is a duo that something Hacker brought vs. BBB in a prior week, its a legitimate defensive core that uses niche Pokemon to solid effect. Why is it a bad thing that Pokemon perceived as less generally effective get a time to shine in tournament play? Glimmet could've just as easily been the more standard Mudshot and handle that Numel fine, taking advantage of Simple affecting debuffs as well as buffs. This team is not sacrificing heavily in matchup against other portions of the metagame.

​

Counter play 2: strong prio

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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-707630 vs

Meowth kinda just owned lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-703450 vs

elfu makes good use of shroodle and nymble to win vs ho

Both great games and Shellder's impact is minimized in both. Genuinely not sure how you're pro suspect while watching these replays of solid teams and dynamic games. Meowth is a fantastic priority user that also outspeeds all the relevant ghosts to dunk on them w/ Assurance. Doesn't need Tera to deal respectable damage, but appreciates the boost. Nymble + Pivot Shroodle, while outplayed by Tera Dark Protect Shellder, Drifloon and Crabrawler both can handle Shellder in their own ways, even through a WIl-o-Wisp miss as we saw. While the latter two have fallen off, that shows there are even more options available to handle Shellder, as people aren't using these perceived sub-optimal sets/Pokemon.

Counter play 3: be lucky
View attachment 540470
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-1913781138-pmg9akpxkjvehq9pqf859wmzaos84kypw vs

Coll got lucky lol

A player put themselves in a position to win the game and unfortunately wasn't rewarded due to RNG, this doesn't mean everyone needs it. That exact team Yellowfin piloted had 1 win that required strong play to pull off ( TheShoddyStrawman ) and a loss due to strong prep in response to the appearence of screens in LCPL prior. Its very hard to take this seriously when you say one of the arguments we have against suspecting them is "be lucky".

Counter play 4: tera
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-706549 vs

the numel dies turn 2 to the rare Tera Water orb

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-704525 vs

Tera Steel foongus at almost full is used to beat special shellder

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-1904351391-as00673w5ler8776b8nzjo1k8tdrsbrpw

Tera Water toed walls special shellder

Other:
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-705397 vs

Tack almost instantly loses her 2 best pokemon ,_,

So basically, they force very niche counter play, tera mix ups, or can just flop if u fuck up.

Overall I think they are both unhealthy, but from what ive seen researching this, SHELLDER is the problematic one here, and not numel.

I therefore believe shellder should be SUSPECT TESTED and BANNED

Tera allows Pokemon to have increased offensive presence or a larger range in defensive utility, there is skill expression in understanding when and why you should Tera. Both players always have this tool and it is up to them to maximize how well they benefit from it. As long as it is around people will use it to lure offensive Pokemon and topple them. Shellder notably uses Tera well itself and has Protect to scout for opposing Teras so I'll say that you have to outplay your opponent on top of simply having the Tera Dragon or Water, so its not some coinflip mess most of the time.

I will not be addressing other:, as that game was a rare miss from a very strong player in Tack and the game was not decided by Numel or Shellder being problematic.

"So basically, they force very niche counter play, tera mix ups, or can just flop if u fuck up."
So basically, they force innovative teambuilding choices, the occasional weighted 50/50s that rely on metagame knowledge, or don't work if the player is bad. See how I can flip those words to sound positive just as easily as you can make them sound awful? I think mine are much closer to the truth as we're seeing the good players largely preform well, and games being decided by the better player vs teambuilder. Not to say there aren't rewards for being a more complete player (ie: building and playing) as we're seeing w/ the rise of axew, Life Orb Pawniard and the aforementioned Croagunk Shellos core.

Lets think critically of what we want from LC this generation. I personally believe it is a very aggressive meta. Its been very fun to build teams and test and work w/ a very unique metagame for LC. There are a notable amount of people that don't like and/or aren't used to this given Sword & Shield Little Cup having banned a lot of the best Offensive/HO tools. We can see this in LCPL as there are a lot of balance teams that don't attempt to outright end a game, and play for grindy matches . I think both make for exciting tiers and gameplay. But, current LC rewards proactive gameplans, and teambuilding focused on setting up end-game situations. It was this way with Growlithe, it was this way with Diglett around. Calling for Shellder or Numel to be suspected I can understand and wouldn't be necessarily against, but I believe neither are broken, nor would it change the dynamic of this gen.

 

[wesh papillon]

The diversity in teras means the person staring down the Shellder often has to weigh odds on what it could be and answer accordingly, and while this could appear as a crapshoot, its often a test of skill and knowledge. This should be rewarded, and can be as Shellders answers are modified slightly by each Tera.

They can vary a lot, pokemon that win against water or rock like shroodle completly lose to dark. It would be true if one were packing 2-3 potential shellder answers, but that still assumes u play the whole game knowing which pokemon can get chipped on which have to stay healthy. I think he ability to bypass ur own checks on a pokemon that wins game off 1 interaction isnt healthy.

Competent teams should and have been packing reasonable counterplay in traditional checks, and terastallization. For Numel this would be pressuring it to deny set up opportunities as much as possible, but for Pokemon the likes Mudbray (Rock Tomb, Roar if you fear tera grass or HH), Shroodle (RKs a weak or tera'd Numel w/ Unburden or Encore if Prankster), numerous tera Dragon or Water (Mudbray, Alolan Grimer, Voltorb-H).

While there are checks and you can tera to beat it, like I said, the issue really is not numel on its own, but the combo of shellder and numel. You can tera to beat one but then u prob lose to the other.

Shellder meanwhile generally hits the metagame for neutral damage and misses out on OHKOs without tera Water or Rock, so you have to hit it hard on the set up turn or go into a Pokemon capable of abusing Shell Smash's downside to OHKO after tanking a hit. Foongus can match tera rock with Tera steel and OHKO back, or just live in a case of no Tera available.

Again, if u tera the foongus, you are in an awful spot into the numel. Also like stuff gets chipped and trapped in games. Its pretty easy to force damage on pokemon that need to be at almsot full to check shellder

The Tera Dragon Pokemon also resist water so they double up on utility answering both.

In a 1v1 yea maybe, but unless ur using dragon coco ur not beating both lol

Shellder and Numel also share a speed stat, so the aforementioned Shroodle works as well, on top of Drifloon who can wisp or hex for reliable damage on Shellders low Special Defense.

Setting up unburden isnt that easy, you still need to sac pokemon, and potentially tera for shroodle vs numel. Again, I would not call this reliable like at all. Drifloon having to chip itself leaves 1 sac and itself vulnerable to be even further setup food

Not quite sure the point of including this.

the point is that Included EVERY replay where shellder and/or numel lost to a team without them lol

Shellos Croagunk is a duo that something Hacker brought vs. BBB in a prior week, its a legitimate defensive core that uses niche Pokemon to solid effect.

It also lost when hacker used it. The shellos is also much weaker and is teching clear smog, as well as TWO pokemon packing memento. Imo I think the players knew BBB would only ever lose this player mu to cheese. Teams like the are a rare sight for pretty obvious reasons, and saying otherwise is disingenuous lol. Im not saying the team is bad, it obv did well, but the amount of counter play to an archetype should at the very least indicate.

Both great games and Shellder's impact is minimized in both. Genuinely not sure how you're pro suspect while watching these replays of solid teams and dynamic games. Meowth is a fantastic priority user that also outspeeds all the relevant ghosts to dunk on them w/ Assurance. Doesn't need Tera to deal respectable damage, but appreciates the boost. Nymble + Pivot Shroodle, while outplayed by Tera Dark Protect Shellder, Drifloon and Crabrawler both can handle Shellder in their own ways, even through a WIl-o-Wisp miss as we saw. While the latter two have fallen off, that shows there are even more options available to handle Shellder, as people aren't using these perceived sub-optimal sets/Pokemon.

I think u completly missed the point of the bottom half of the post lol. Im arguing against myself to give the post a fair chance. Again, nymble and meowth are almsot exclusively good into these two mons + like a few other ho dudes like shrrodle. They still see play cuz of how oppressive this archetype is.

A player put themselves in a position to win the game and unfortunately wasn't rewarded due to RNG, this doesn't mean everyone needs it. That exact team Yellowfin piloted had 1 win that required strong play to pull off ( TheShoddyStrawman ) and a loss due to strong prep in response to the appearence of screens in LCPL prior. Its very hard to take this seriously when you say one of the arguments we have against suspecting them is "be lucky".

Again, the reason why shellder win rate wasnt 100% week 3 is cuz of this game.

The winrate being "low" is because ppl are fishing heavily against these 2 mons, shellder players misplaying, or just pokemon.

Also no offense but I think I could pilot this team lol it doesnt look that hard

So basically, they force innovative teambuilding choices, the occasional weighted 50/50s that rely on metagame knowledge, or don't work if the player is bad. See how I can flip those words to sound positive just as easily as you can make them sound awful?

This is so disengenious lol. My point is that they WIN if you dont hard mu fish for, lose a coin flip, if if the opponent doesnt randomly fuck up.

Again, ppl are getting better and better at using shellder, this win rate is only going up on average.

Again, in the latest week, it won 6/7 games

I think mine are much closer to the truth as we're seeing the good players largely preform well, and games being decided by the better player vs teambuilder. Not to say there aren't rewards for being a more complete player (ie: building and playing) as we're seeing w/ the rise of axew, Life Orb Pawniard and the aforementioned Croagunk Shellos core.

I think mine are much closer to the truth as we're seeing highly ranked players like hacker getting completly destroyed by shellder. We're also seeing shellder and numel pair with other pokemon like goth, axew, shroodle, etc, to make that archetype stronger each week.

Lets think critically of what we want from LC this generation. I personally believe it is a very aggressive meta. Its been very fun to build teams and test and work w/ a very unique metagame for LC. There are a notable amount of people that don't like and/or aren't used to this given Sword & Shield Little Cup having banned a lot of the best Offensive/HO tools.

Okay well I disagree, I havent been having fun playing vs HO every other game? Shellder has been an issue for a long time now lol and I think it's time something is done about it. Also yeah theres a reason the offensive pokemon were banned in ss lol.

We can see this in LCPL as there are a lot of balance teams that don't attempt to outright end a game, and play for grindy matches . I think both make for exciting tiers and gameplay.

What does grindy matches even mean lol, like multiple turns of interaction? Obv these teams exist but they are severely restricted, which isnt too surprising, considering this tier has a LOT of offensive powerhouses for few defensive checks lol.

But, current LC rewards proactive gameplans, and teambuilding focused on setting up end-game situations.

I mean it is still pokemon lol, ofc it rewards gameplans and team building and setting up good end game positions. Id say other lc's I have played reward these even more but wtv you can reasonably disagree on that

Calling for Shellder or Numel to be suspected I can understand and wouldn't be necessarily against, but I believe neither are broken, nor would it change the dynamic of this gen.

So what was the point of all this lol? If I think the meta would be better, and you think it wouldnt change the dynamic of the gen, then... we can just ban it? Why are you writing a post if u think a suspect is reasonable, you are allowed to vote no ban lol

For a decently large post, theres a lack of substance beyond buzzwords, and vague statements.

 

[Kaboom]

They can vary a lot, pokemon that win against water or rock like shroodle completly lose to dark. It would be true if one were packing 2-3 potential shellder answers, but that still assumes u play the whole game knowing which pokemon can get chipped on which have to stay healthy. I think he ability to bypass ur own checks on a pokemon that wins game off 1 interaction isnt healthy.

I addressed that in my post, could you mention how they vary a lot? Tera Dark leaves you better against Pawniard Sucker Punch and a Pivot Shroodle set that is relevant, but dropping usage. Without consuming Tera or boosting STAB or Rock Blast you will fail to get OHKOs. Foongus beats Tera Water or Tera Dark reliably. You can also construct teams that make it difficult to find set up opportunities early so you can establish your own gameplan, Roar Mudbray denies the Shell Smash, Giga Drain Alolan Grimer on Grassy Terrain OHKOs -1 Shellder. Shellder can be effective early game, softening up some of Numels answers, but teams are typically capable of diversifying their answers, not just having defensive solutions. Between the Unburden Pokemon (that you mention later and I will inevitably talk about), priority (Life Orb Pawniard is still good against Numel even if you're tera dark Shellder). You can generally afford to trade 1 for 1 for the Shellder early game assuming you haven't walked into a set up trap. Consuming Tera early in the game removes a lot of guesswork from your opponent and allows them to use theirs aggressively to even out the score, so it is not "1 interaction wins you the game" to the degree that you're describing. Theres a lot of game to be played before Shellder just wins the game, and that goes for numel especially given it requires an extra turn to be used.

While there are checks and you can tera to beat it, like I said, the issue really is not numel on its own, but the combo of shellder and numel. You can tera to beat one but then u prob lose to the other.

You have tools beyond Tera to handle them as I've mentioned some above. This is a gross oversimplification of the game, and makes no mention of how you can be the aggressor and put your opponent on the backpedal at times. Numel and Shellder are fantastic when you're in an advantaged state, because they help push that, but your team adds fragility, they cannot often manage to sacrifice life to handle threats and preform as well offensively. You are making sacrifices, and if you are down on tempo and your own Shellder, or Numel, or Unburden Shroodle can claim the win.

Again, if u tera the foongus, you are in an awful spot into the numel. Also like stuff gets chipped and trapped in games. Its pretty easy to force damage on pokemon that need to be at almsot full to check shellder

Yes using Tera has downsides, Foongus isn't exactly an answer to Numel pre-Tera anyway. Yes if your opponent executes their gameplan effectively. Succeeding in chipping your Pokemon that can answer a healthy Shellder or Numel, and making you burn Tera means they have played towards their win condition. You can do this exactly thing with Unburden Shroodle or looking to the past, basically any power set-up sweeper. Both players have the option to attempt this kind of strategy, and not simply weather the storm of hard hits and hope they live.

In a 1v1 yea maybe, but unless ur using dragon coco ur not beating both lol

These Pokemon that are using Tera Dragon are often Pokemon Shellder could attempt sweeps on, although again, Roar Mudbray or Giga Drain/Memento Grimer can deny these opportunities in certain circumstances w/o even using Tera. You seem to be very adamant that Tera is the only way to stop these Pokemon, please go into more detail about how they are no non-tera answers. Fuecoco is a 0 usage in LCPL Pokemon, lets keep the discussion to Pokemon relevant to tournament/high level play

Setting up unburden isnt that easy, you still need to sac pokemon, and potentially tera for shroodle vs numel. Again, I would not call this reliable like at all. Drifloon having to chip itself leaves 1 sac and itself vulnerable to be even further setup food

Yes it is, we've seen it often. 24 HP Drifloon if rocks are up can get Unburden reliably throughout a game, Unburden Shroodle simply requires Grassy Terrain, yes you might want to save it, but an out is an out and Shroodle is naturally fast regardless. Through a game you mention Pokemon get chipped, why suddenly can't the drifloon have been chipped as a means to Proc unburden at necessary times. These kinds of moments where you plan ahead to generate more counterplay are creative and skill expressive. This point about Tera 50/50s applies for Tera Ground Shroodle primarily here are the calcs for the almost as popular Tera Flying or simply Knock Off from base Shroodle.

Calcs

236+ Atk Tera Flying Shroodle Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Numel: 13-16 (59 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
236+ Atk Shroodle Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Numel: 9-11 (40.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11)
236+ Atk Shroodle Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Numel: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)

Ofc this is assuming Numel hasn't had to consume Tera to find set up opportunities, Shroodle is not perfect in this case but it acts a reasonable RKer if Numel had to sacrifice turns to set up. It is not free and you will expect to take damage. Lastly per your point about Drifloon again, what exactly is Drifloon set up bait for? It can run Will-o-Wisp for physical attackers, is 34 speed post unburden so you can't flame charge on it if its healthy. And has ran endure/memento/dbond as various options to act as a revenge killer or deny set up attempts.

the point is that Included EVERY replay where shellder and/or numel lost to a team without them lol

How do you watch this and think these Pokemon are a problem is why I questioned. People should want to be the best player if they're participating at a competitive level, these weren't some unattainable feats of skill. You're basically walking yourself into a l2p argument, but I'll spare the uselessness of that.

It also lost when hacker used it. The shellos is also much weaker and is teching clear smog, as well as TWO pokemon packing memento. Imo I think the players knew BBB would only ever lose this player mu to cheese. Teams like the are a rare sight for pretty obvious reasons, and saying otherwise is disingenuous lol. Im not saying the team is bad, it obv did well, but the amount of counter play to an archetype should at the very least indicate.

On the LC Discord (Shoutouts join if you haven't we're having a lot of LCPL discussion in VC and chats!), people, including Hacker have talked about this game. td;lr Odds were in his favor to win, and he had a cleaner line to win that was mentioned later. People are adapting to the meta with their moveslots and Pokemon choices, what is wrong with this. You aren't suddenly auto losing to other strategies if your memento becomes slightly less useful or clear smog isn't getting clicked. Shellos is tanky and puts Gothita in an awkward spot due to sticky hold and Tera (Dragon etc). I'm not here to talk about LCPL prep, but BBB is good we get the point. People have not consistently been rolling up w/ "bad" Pokemon to answer the Numel & Shellder duo, this is disingenuous and borders on straight lying. Even if they were these Pokemon would suddenly be less bad, as they have a newfound niche that should be celebrated rather than berating the meta.

I think u completly missed the point of the bottom half of the post lol. Im arguing against myself to give the post a fair chance. Again, nymble and meowth are almsot exclusively good into these two mons + like a few other ho dudes like shrrodle. They still see play cuz of how oppressive this archetype is.

I saw the point, I think the point had nothing of value. These "counterarguments" were mostly awful and borderline are parody/mocking of people who disagree with your viewpoint. Meowth is a fast, hard hitting priority user that has coverage to OHKO the Ghost types of the tier. Its just generically strong, and benefits especially from this meta. I think both have been slept on (and Nymble actually saw a lot of use in Growlithe-H meta), and now is Meowths time to get acknowledgement. These are meta developments to make Pokemon less effective, in spite of these changes we will see if they somehow continue to show dominance.

Again, the reason why shellder win rate wasnt 100% week 3 is cuz of this game.

The winrate being "low" is because ppl are fishing heavily against these 2 mons, shellder players misplaying, or just pokemon.

Also no offense but I think I could pilot this team lol it doesnt look that hard

None of these replays have shown any fishing, could you provide some or is the onus on the person not arguing for change to go dig your argument out for you.
I never said the team was hard to play nor do I care lmao if a team gets the job done it gets the job done. I said Shoddy's game required solid piloting to win and it is not mindless. Please don't put words in my mouth.

This is so disengenious lol. My point is that they WIN if you dont hard mu fish for, lose a coin flip, if if the opponent doesnt randomly fuck up.

Again, ppl are getting better and better at using shellder, this win rate is only going up on average.

Again, in the latest week, it won 6/7 games

My point is that you have to bring answers to beat these Pokemon, and there was no matchup fishing, prepping and bringing answers to common, powerful Pokemon is how you play the game. Where were the coinflips, please point them out. Sample size of 7 whole games, average it out with the other weeks and Shellders sitting around a 50% winrate. Shellder is not some hard to pilot Pokemon that isn't intuitive, and you're seeing extremely similar teams week after week. You're very much cherrypicking.

I think mine are much closer to the truth as we're seeing highly ranked players like hacker getting completly destroyed by shellder. We're also seeing shellder and numel pair with other pokemon like goth, axew, shroodle, etc, to make that archetype stronger each week.

Good player loses to other good players in bo1 tournament. Hacker might be better overall then a lot of the competition, but he has to play well in the actual game to win. No one is entitled to win a game based off their sheet record. Set up sweepers when built around become a win condition. These are not new or problematic parts of the game. You're very much showing your personal bias against this kind of strategy without saying why its a problem outside of "theres no counterplay" or "its 50/50s" without showing any substance or why it devolves down to this.

Okay well I disagree, I havent been having fun playing vs HO every other game? Shellder has been an issue for a long time now lol and I think it's time something is done about it. Also yeah theres a reason the offensive pokemon were banned in ss lol.

The point of your post was to say Numel/Shellder should be suspected, not just a post to vent about how you feel about the meta right? You not enjoying it, and the Pokemon being broken are different things. Whether Shellders been an issue doesn't matter, we're talking about the current meta. If you could actually respond to my points on why some of the counterplay mentioned doesn't make for a healthy metagame I will respond accordingly.

What does grindy matches even mean lol, like multiple turns of interaction? Obv these teams exist but they are severely restricted, which isnt too surprising, considering this tier has a LOT of offensive powerhouses for few defensive checks lol.

A game that goes long or isn't necessarily decided early. This is just how the meta is, you haven't explained why this is bad and needs to be changed outside of your personal preference.

So what was the point of all this lol? If I think the meta would be better, and you think it wouldnt change the dynamic of the gen, then... we can just ban it? Why are you writing a post if u think a suspect is reasonable, you are allowed to vote no ban lol

The dynamic in regards to how fast paced and offensive it is, I do not want Pokemon banned simply because people do not like the meta. If they're broken they should get suspected, not just because or to shake things up. Not how tiering should work.

For a decently large post, theres a lack of substance beyond buzzwords, and vague statements.

You quote not even half of what I wrote, and barely responded to everything you did quote. I'm sorry if this offended you, but to repeat my actual concern with your initial post with childish sass, instead of creating an actual discussion is reductive and defeats the point of making your post in the first place.

 

[some random idiot]

This is probably not related to anything, but I'm really surprised how much Sandygast is overlooked. 80 defense and 55 hp is a decent physical wall, but I'm mostly thinking about Water Compaction with Absorb Bulb. It's an odd combination, sure, but I think it has potential. Shore Up is useful, as always, and it has some good offensive capabilities with Earth Power, Shadow Ball, Psychic, Sludge Bomb, Energy Ball, Flash Cannon, and, of course, Tera Blast. And the defensive moves include the aforementioned Shore Up, Iron Defense, Substitute, Destiny Bond, and Trick. There's a lot of potential, and I'm very, very surprised how overlooked it is. I'm new to LC, so it might not be good, but I think it's worth a try.

 

[ShaunShen]

Alright so new Trailer dropped for the DLC and I thought it would be fun to talk about some of the new LC-Eligible Pokémon that are confirmed to come with the DLC. Ik there is a post above, so I'll be focusing on the new trailer rather than the older ones.

DLC 1: The Teal Mask (Confirmed for 9/13 Release Date)

Looks bad per usual, but (if it is still around) Tera could (humongous could) help it carve a small D Rank Niche perhaps.

Belly Drum + Hypnosis could be a cool combination, but there's a later Pokémon who got banned last gen for using Belly Drum so Poliwag probably won't be good.

Looks bad don't use it.

Looks bad DO NOT use it.

Ok so hear me out. Swinub could (major could) be a nice emergency check to Hisuian Voltorb thanks to Ice Shard. Probably nothing worth noting otherwise though.

Bulky Ghost... yay. Being real though, we only have like one good Ghost type and that could change eventually. Duskull won't be anything special, but it could be a D Ranker perhaps.

Other than funny SubSeed + Harvest sets, this thing probably won't be good. It's outclassed as a Ghost type by Drifloon and as a Grass type by Grookey. Also Bramblin exists.

DLC 2: The Indigo Disk (No Confirmed Date yet).

If Drilbur does not return, I could see Sandshrew being used as a Spinner with an Electric Immunity. Unfortunately, the best Electric Type... has Grass STAB.

If it gets Triple Axel, it could reprise the niche it had last gen. Plus being able to Tera into a better typing could be really nice. Could do Tera Water or Tera Ghost imo.

Not good per usual really.

Magnet Pull dude really. What Steels are there to trap though? Pawniard and Diglett-Alola? Oh yeah that's right, anything can become a Steel, and as long as they don't have Levitate, Scarf EQ can put in work.

This could be good tbh. It all depends on if it gets to keep Jump Kick or not. If it gets a better Fighting Move, this thing could be really good. If it keeps Jump Kick, still very good. If it loses Jump Kick and doesn't get a new fighting move, it would not be good.

No.

The Fire Type Belly Drummer from Gen 8 returns with a passion I guess? I don't really know, I didn't use Magby last gen, was a bit too enamored with Unburden + Grassy Surge so I really didn't care for Magby. It'll probably be good.

If Onix does not return this gen, Rhyhorn will be the defacto Rock type in the tier. Otherwise, if Onix does return, no one is using Rhyhorn.

Head Smash? That's it really? Scarf sets could be good? I have no idea I didn't use Cranidos in Gen 7, it looked... bad.

Looks bad, don't use it.

Alright so hear me out. If the Unburden Pokemon do get banned randomly, and Zorua-Hisui usage drops off a cliff, Litwick could be good. Key word could.

I dont care what anyone says, Topsy-Turvy strats are funny af. In terms of being a good Pokémon... no.

BTW, these Pokemon are based on what I found from footage at the moment. If I find more, I'll update the list.

 

[Gohankuten]

Alright so new Trailer dropped for the DLC and I thought it would be fun to talk about some of the new LC-Eligible Pokémon that are confirmed to come with the DLC. Ik there is a post above, so I'll be focusing on the new trailer rather than the older ones.

DLC 1: The Teal Mask (Confirmed for 9/13 Release Date)

Looks bad per usual, but (if it is still around) Tera could (humongous could) help it carve a small D Rank Niche perhaps.

Belly Drum + Hypnosis could be a cool combination, but there's a later Pokémon who got banned last gen for using Belly Drum so Poliwag probably won't be good.

Looks bad don't use it.

Looks bad DO NOT use it.

Ok so hear me out. Swinub could (major could) be a nice emergency check to Hisuian Voltorb thanks to Ice Shard. Probably nothing worth noting otherwise though.

Bulky Ghost... yay. Being real though, we only have like one good Ghost type and that could change eventually. Duskull won't be anything special, but it could be a D Ranker perhaps.

Other than funny SubSeed + Harvest sets, this thing probably won't be good. It's outclassed as a Ghost type by Drifloon and as a Grass type by Grookey. Also Bramblin exists.

DLC 2: The Indigo Disk (No Confirmed Date yet).

If Drilbur does not return, I could see Sandshrew being used as a Spinner with an Electric Immunity. Unfortunately, the best Electric Type... has Grass STAB.

If it gets Triple Axel, it could reprise the niche it had last gen. Plus being able to Tera into a better typing could be really nice. Could do Tera Water or Tera Ghost imo.

Not good per usual really.

Magnet Pull dude really. What Steels are there to trap though? Pawniard and Diglett-Alola? Oh yeah that's right, anything can become a Steel, and as long as they don't have Levitate, Scarf EQ can put in work.

This could be good tbh. It all depends on if it gets to keep Jump Kick or not. If it gets a better Fighting Move, this thing could be really good. If it keeps Jump Kick, still very good. If it loses Jump Kick and doesn't get a new fighting move, it would not be good.

No.

The Fire Type Belly Drummer from Gen 8 returns with a passion I guess? I don't really know, I didn't use Magby last gen, was a bit too enamored with Unburden + Grassy Surge so I really didn't care for Magby. It'll probably be good.

If Onix does not return this gen, Rhyhorn will be the defacto Rock type in the tier. Otherwise, if Onix does return, no one is using Rhyhorn.

Head Smash? That's it really? Scarf sets could be good? I have no idea I didn't use Cranidos in Gen 7, it looked... bad.

Looks bad, don't use it.

Alright so hear me out. If the Unburden Pokemon do get banned randomly, and Zorua-Hisui usage drops off a cliff, Litwick could be good. Key word could.

I dont care what anyone says, Topsy-Turvy strats are funny af. In terms of being a good Pokémon... no.

BTW, these Pokemon are based on what I found from footage at the moment. If I find more, I'll update the list.

Don't forget since he is now getting an Evo in DLC2 and thus will now be a first stage mon lol. Will definitely be QB'd immediately but still don't forget him.

 

[ShaunShen]

Alright so new Trailer dropped for the DLC and I thought it would be fun to talk about some of the new LC-Eligible Pokémon that are confirmed to come with the DLC. Ik there is a post above, so I'll be focusing on the new trailer rather than the older ones.

DLC 1: The Teal Mask (Confirmed for 9/13 Release Date)

Looks bad per usual, but (if it is still around) Tera could (humongous could) help it carve a small D Rank Niche perhaps.

Belly Drum + Hypnosis could be a cool combination, but there's a later Pokémon who got banned last gen for using Belly Drum so Poliwag probably won't be good.

Looks bad don't use it.

Looks bad DO NOT use it.

Ok so hear me out. Swinub could (major could) be a nice emergency check to Hisuian Voltorb thanks to Ice Shard. Probably nothing worth noting otherwise though.

Bulky Ghost... yay. Being real though, we only have like one good Ghost type and that could change eventually. Duskull won't be anything special, but it could be a D Ranker perhaps.

Other than funny SubSeed + Harvest sets, this thing probably won't be good. It's outclassed as a Ghost type by Drifloon and as a Grass type by Grookey. Also Bramblin exists.

DLC 2: The Indigo Disk (No Confirmed Date yet).

If Drilbur does not return, I could see Sandshrew being used as a Spinner with an Electric Immunity. Unfortunately, the best Electric Type... has Grass STAB.

If it gets Triple Axel, it could reprise the niche it had last gen. Plus being able to Tera into a better typing could be really nice. Could do Tera Water or Tera Ghost imo.

Not good per usual really.

Magnet Pull dude really. What Steels are there to trap though? Pawniard and Diglett-Alola? Oh yeah that's right, anything can become a Steel, and as long as they don't have Levitate, Scarf EQ can put in work.

This could be good tbh. It all depends on if it gets to keep Jump Kick or not. If it gets a better Fighting Move, this thing could be really good. If it keeps Jump Kick, still very good. If it loses Jump Kick and doesn't get a new fighting move, it would not be good.

No.

The Fire Type Belly Drummer from Gen 8 returns with a passion I guess? I don't really know, I didn't use Magby last gen, was a bit too enamored with Unburden + Grassy Surge so I really didn't care for Magby. It'll probably be good.

If Onix does not return this gen, Rhyhorn will be the defacto Rock type in the tier. Otherwise, if Onix does return, no one is using Rhyhorn.

Head Smash? That's it really? Scarf sets could be good? I have no idea I didn't use Cranidos in Gen 7, it looked... bad.

Looks bad, don't use it.

Alright so hear me out. If the Unburden Pokemon do get banned randomly, and Zorua-Hisui usage drops off a cliff, Litwick could be good. Key word could.

I dont care what anyone says, Topsy-Turvy strats are funny af. In terms of being a good Pokémon... no.

BTW, these Pokemon are based on what I found from footage at the moment. If I find more, I'll update the list.

Found a few more, just gonna do them in Dex Order.

Step aside other Fighters, the Big Burr is back in this bitch. Currently, Timburr is looking to be a good ass threat in this tier. It is kinda walled by Zorua-H since it loses Knock off, but Mach Punch, Ice Punch, & Stone Edge can solo most of the tier. Running Tera Fighting, Ice, or Rock for the extra STAB is more than likely what is going to happen.

Oh lord, she's back. After her being banned from LC in Gen 8, she does lose a bit of steam since she might not have Roost this gen, but she will still be a force. Tera makes Vullaby into an even harder threat.

Skill Link King's Rock if that's not banned? Otherwise, garbage.

Dragon Dance really? I mean we don't have the insanely good fairies like Spritzee right now so it could work maybe?

 

[Baloochi]

One pig went away from paldea. One is still trapped in B2W2 and one is a meme.

introducing spoink.

with oddly good sp def and speed this pure psychic type can get some good use in lc

In terms of abilities we have gluttony( useless), own tempo (ok) and thick fat( ok)

if it ever stops bouncing just frickin dies

Moves

• Psychic( stab)
• Dazzling gleam( fairy coverage)
• Charge beam(weak but a chance to raise sp attack)
• Chilling water(welcome to psychical attacker hell, if only there was technician with this)
• Flash cannon( uhhh yep steel to attack I guess)
• Grass knot(coverage)
• Icy wind ( freeze, everyone lose some speed begins clapping with no arms )
• Power gem(rock coverage)
• Shadow ball( ghost coverage)
• for doubles LC simple beam could be used to make an ally get simple but otherwise really niche
• Snarl( I have no clue that pigs could)
• Taunt( to disable from defoggers and set up)
• T-wave( everything gets it now)
• Trick ( messing up other items go vrrrrrrrr)
• Tera Blast (duh)