Keldeo, evaluating a potential suspect test.

[jjoshcja]

Run shaky checks or lose
Checks need support to not die to alternate sets and need more support to not die to trapping
Checks of checks of checks are commonly used
Keldio's best checks can also be used to support the pony (nasty pass celebi, or gastrodon for example)
How is this not over centralizing the metagame exactly?

Sun teams dont really care about pony, but sun teams dont really care about anything that dosen't stop venusaur.

 

[Sturdynips]

However, a spec Keldeo does have a chance to OHKO the smogon special defensive set if Keldeo is using a modest nature:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Bug vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 364-432 (90.09 - 106.93%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO

A timid nature is a 2HKO:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Bug vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 336-396 (83.16 - 98.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

No Keldeo will ever run a modest nature, it needs the speed even more than power. Also, specs Keldeo doesn't run HP bug, it will run HP ghost/electric 9 times out of 10.

Run shaky checks or lose
Checks need support to not die to alternate sets and need more support to not die to trapping
Checks of checks of checks are commonly used
Keldio's best checks can also be used to support the pony (nasty pass celebi, or gastrodon for example)
How is this not over centralizing the metagame exactly?

I'm not trying to say that Keldeo doesn't need a test, but the argument of running shaky checks or losing is not a winning one. The same could be said for practically every offensive pokemon in OU - if you dont have a check for terrakion it will wreak havoc, same with threats like Thundurus-T, Garchomp etc.

 

[blizzardmaster]

No Keldeo will ever run a modest nature, it needs the speed even more than power. Also, specs Keldeo doesn't run HP bug, it will run HP ghost/electric 9 times out of 10..

I agree. I'm just giving calcs for the best-case scenario. I would run a timid nature if I used it. Same goes for HP bug. HP ghost/electric are better suited for it, and it makes more sense having a team member to deal with celebi and other similar checks.

 

[jjoshcja]

I'm not trying to say that Keldeo doesn't need a test, but the argument of running shaky checks or losing is not a winning one. The same could be said for practically every offensive pokemon in OU - if you dont have a check for terrakion it will wreak havoc, same with threats like Thundurus-T, Garchomp etc.

Oh look listing 3 things that die to priority, and can be hard walled by things immune to trapping and comparing them to keldio.

One of these things is not like the others.

 

[Sturdynips]

Oh look listing 3 things that die to priority, and can be hard walled by things immune to trapping and comparing them to keldio.

One of these things is not like the others.

You missed my point, i was saying that any offensive pokemon will cause heavy damage to a team that doesn't have a check for it. Super effective priority is obviously a way to check a pokemon. I was in no way comparing them to Keldeo.

As far as a suspect test goes, I think Keldeo definitely deserves one, for reasons that have been made clear many times by others in the thread. I'm on the fence as to whether it's broken or not, but without a doubt needs a test.

 

[Huskisson906]

Christ. If it's not Keldeo's variety in sets. It's that more than itself can be on the same team as Keldeo. I mean really. Saying that one pokemon walls it indefinitely. Ludacris! Take into account that this is OU and not 1vs1. I mean sure there will be times where said pokemon will be a problem. But they can be bypassed with the right moves + support. While we are on the topic of Keldeo counters. Amoongus. wtf? That is like using Golurk to fend off Terrakion. Shure Golurk can get Ko's on Terrakion without taking a fuckton of damage barring earthquake. But other than that what else can it do in OU without being outclassed?

 

[Spinda]

Christ. If it's not Keldeo's variety in sets. It's that more than itself can be on the same team as Keldeo. I mean really. Saying that one pokemon walls it indefinitely. Ludacris! Take into account that this is OU and not 1vs1. I mean sure there will be times where said pokemon will be a problem. But they can be bypassed with the right moves + support. While we are on the topic of Keldeo counters. Amoongus. wtf? That is like using Golurk to fend off Terrakion. Shure Golurk can get Ko's on Terrakion without taking a fuckton of damage barring earthquake. But other than that what else can it do in OU without being outclassed?

Aside from being a grass type with above average bulk, regenerator, spore, and the ability of absorbing toxic spikes? Being a good check to fighting and water types in general? Not much I guess.

 

[jjoshcja]

Aside from being a grass type with above average bulk, regenerator, spore, and the ability of absorbing toxic spikes? Being a good check to fighting and water types in general? Not much I guess.

Sans scarf terrakion and breloom (spore) mushroom is 2 hit koed with rocks by every fighting mon in OU unboosted with 1 hit + coverage move, at +1 its 2 hit KOed with just fighting spam by everything. It can sponge special water moves all day but thats about it. So unless you just need a keldio counter thats immune to pursuit trap its pretty terrible.

None of them can really be hardwalled smh
And gothitelle can be specialised to trap a lot of things, you know.
Which is why I'm sick of pursuit/gothitelle support being mentioned in suspects.

Pursuit is on almost every team and is about as minimal as support gets. Its worth noting in suspect imo.
Can agree with ya on goth.

 

[Spinda]

Sans scarf terrakion and breloom (spore) mushroom is 2 hit koed with rocks by every fighting mon in OU unboosted with 1 hit + coverage move, at +1 its 2 hit KOed with just fighting spam by everything. It can sponge special water moves all day but thats about it and there are far better mons in OU for that.



Pursuit is on almost every team and is about as minimal as support gets. Its worth noting in suspect imo.
Can agree with ya on goth.

SR is as minimal as support gets. If pursuit was that common, pokemon like Latios wouldn't be getting near the usage it gets.
A pursuit trapper on your opponents team is NOT a standard battle condition

 

[jjoshcja]

SR is as minimal as support gets. If pursuit was that common, pokemon like Latios wouldn't be getting near the usage it gets.
A pursuit trapper on your opponents team is NOT a standard battle condition

Total battles: 1104606
Avg. weight/team: 0.094
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Scizor | 27.96206% | 401809 | 18.188% | 317205 | 17.906% |

Kinda is

 

[Spinda]

Total battles: 1104606
Avg. weight/team: 0.094
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Scizor | 27.96206% | 401809 | 18.188% | 317205 | 17.906% |

Kinda is

Of which only 55% run pursuit, and Scizor is hardly a reliable pursuit trapper anyway
That being said, I'm more open to banning pursuit than I am to banning keldeo

 

[jjoshcja]

Of which only 55% run pursuit, and Scizor is hardly a reliable pursuit trapper anyway
That being said, I'm more open to banning pursuit than I am to banning keldeo

| 3 | Tyranitar | 19.71422% | 264862 | 11.989% | 226639 | 12.794% |

Banning pursuit would break so many things

 

[Spinda]

| 3 | Tyranitar | 19.71422% | 264862 | 11.989% | 226639 | 12.794% |

58% of those run pursuit, not to mention keldeo gets a lot less scary without drizzle support
25% is hardly almost any team, though.

 

[ginganinja]

Lets not kid ourselves. Amoonguss is by no means a terrible pokemon, but its getting use simply because its an excellent check to most Keldeo.. and thats pretty much it. Maybe its nice for like, tanking some versions of Thundurus-T, and maybe an Ice Beam or something, but Keldeo is the primary reason its getting usage.

Spinda, please do not discount the influence of Pursuit within this specific test, Its no secret that Lati@s, Jellicent, and Celebi are "risky" Keldeo checks/counters in general, mostly due to Tyranitar threatening to trap and kill. Its silly to suggest we should ignore this, as many a team has Tyranitar and Scizor available to it, and this is relevant to how we deal with Keldeo. Please refrain from saying Pursuit only gets 50~% usage since Pursuit is common as fuck on both Scizor and Tyranitar. For instance its Scizors most common 4th move (ie most chances are its on Scizor's moveset when you face one) and the 3rd most common move on Tyranitar. Attempting to claim "its not common" on these mons, is just fucking retarded. (Please excuse my French but it just is...)

Yes, I am aware that if Tyranitar is active, then Keldeo loses the weather support, on the other hand nothing stops it abusing your opponents weather, and thats not an uncommon strategy. Its very easy for me to pair Keldeo with Tyranitar, know that vs Sandstorm I will attempt to trap Jellicent and Latias, while against Rain, ill keep my Tyranitar back, and lay waste to your team with boosted Hydro Pumps. Or maybe ill ignore the Tyranitar Support, and just run a Specs set with Politoed, and still managed to 2KO most of my counters. Keldeo works well under both Sandstorm and Rain (the 2 most common weathers in OU), decently in weatherless (Top 3 playstyles in OU iirc), thus I don't want to see any claims that its weather reliant or some other bs.

I'm not trying to say that Keldeo doesn't need a test, but the argument of running shaky checks or losing is not a winning one. The same could be said for practically every offensive pokemon in OU - if you don't have a check for terrakion it will wreak havoc, same with threats like Thundurus-T, Garchomp etc.

This issue is that Keldeo can bypass many of its checks and counters fairly easily, mostly by switching up its Hidden Power type, or moveset. This makes checking it, a headache since various sets can defeat hard counters. For instance, CM + 3 Attacks has the power to push past Jellicent if it has HP Ghost, Sub CM laughs at Tentacruel, Specs rapes so much of the meta its not even funny (with Rain support), Scarf laughs at your plans to revenge kill it (and cleans through Offensive teams in general), Expert Belt catches Celebi switching in on a Water move and then rapes it with HP Bug and so on. Granted, its not going to run all these sets at once but perhaps you can get an idea as to why Keldeo is a bit more of a special case as opposed to Terrakion which really needs to run something niche like HP Ice to accomplish similar tactics.

 

[jjoshcja]

58% of those run pursuit, not to mention keldeo gets a lot less scary without drizzle support
25% is hardly almost any team, though.

Total set useage is all ratings. Scizor and T tar useage jump massively at 1850+ because pursuit. They pretty much all run it.

 

[Sturdynips]

This issue is that Keldeo can bypass many of its checks and counters fairly easily, mostly by switching up its Hidden Power type, or moveset. This makes checking it, a headache since various sets can defeat hard counters. For instance, CM + 3 Attacks has the power to push past Jellicent if it has HP Ghost, Sub CM laughs at Tentacruel, Specs rapes so much of the meta its not even funny (with Rain support), Scarf laughs at your plans to revenge kill it (and cleans through Offensive teams in general), Expert Belt catches Celebi switching in on a Water move and then rapes it with HP Bug and so on. Granted, its not going to run all these sets at once but perhaps you can get an idea as to why Keldeo is a bit more of a special case as opposed to Terrakion which really needs to run something niche like HP Ice to accomplish similar tactics.

I agree 100%. Maybe i worded my comment wrong, but i wasn't saying that keldeo can't defeat its checks more easily than other pokemon. I was saying that, in general, no matter what the pokemon is, if you don't have a check for it, it will be a big problem for your team. I agree that keldeo has the ability to beat/cripple its counters which is why it is definitely suspect-worthy.

 

[Spinda]

I agree 100%. Maybe i worded my comment wrong, but i wasn't saying that keldeo can't defeat its checks more easily than other pokemon. I was saying that, in general, no matter what the pokemon is, if you don't have a check for it, it will be a big problem for your team. I agree that keldeo has the ability to beat/cripple its counters which is why it is definitely suspect-worthy.

This is BW2, everything has the ability to beat/cripple its counters

 

[Shurtugal]

Cress is great if you can keep sun up, especially given how difficult it is for ninetales to switch into common rain offense members like keldeo

Yeah, Keldeo isn't hard pressed at all with Sun Stall teams running both Venusaur and Cresselia. It's not like Trapping Heatran can't kill off Politoed either. You speak as if sun doesn't prepare for rain at all, but you'll find that sun stall in the hands of a good player could care less about Keldeo.

What scarf pokemon isn't setup bait? (Setup ferro/kingdra/etc on scarf palkia) It's there to revenge kill a dangerous threat and then get out (but keldeo gets the added bonus of later game rain scarf sweeps!)

My point was that offense could utilize these moments to come up with a revenge sweep. Honestly, Keldeo cannot switch into SR +1 Spikes twice (especially after sand damage) and live a +2 Espeed from Luke, right? I was only pointing out that although Scarf Keldeo might be revenging something like Scarf Mence, you can still bring in another Pokemon can maintain the offensive momentum.

Just take Limitless' Aero / Breloom / Dragonite / Lucario / Salamence / Terrakion.

Technically that's supposed to be Scarf Keldeo weak since it's faster and can revenge kill everything on that team, with Dragonite as the only Pokemon that can tank its dual STABs. But all of you haters will say Dragonite gets boned by rocks so fine so be it. However, this team has peaked very high on the PO ladder consistently and isn't bothered by Keldeo at all. Mence forces it to come in and RK and Limitless can go into Rak or Lucario and pretty much set up a Rock Polish / Swords Dance and continue to break the opposing team.

I'm not denying that Scarf Keldeo is hard for Offense to beat, it's just not as bad as it's implied to be.

If jelli is spdef, ttar can kill it easily

OK let me address something for Jellicent.

Let's say it can burn TTar (always assume no RNG abuse when in a suspect). If Tyranitar is paired with Choice or EB HP Bug Keldeo (which is the standard), then if Keldeo locks itself into SS or Hydro, Jellicent can come in and heal for free since CB Pursuit is piss weak burned, so I digress the 50/50 works both ways and for the most part Keldeo is not muscling through Jellicent on it's own -- it needs Tyranitar (the ONLY pursuit trapper that can reliably do this) to do this.

Also, that's another thing -- why do people constantly bring up both Toed and TTar? You can't just put Keldeo in sand and say it's spamming Rain Hydro Pumps lategame. You can't put something in rain and equally say that Scizor is pursuit trapping; when, like Spina pointed out, Scizor isn't as reliable at trapping as Tyranitar is.

Also, the combination of Goth, TTar, and Terrakion pretty much gets the same results as Keldeo so I don't see why people aren't suspecting that as well. I mean, Goth and TTar is a lot of support, but we're giving Keldeo a lot of support in this suspect too, aren't we hypocrites?

Amoongus can be 2hkod.

Really.

Just, really.

That's your argument?

When Amo is ran in sand stall alongside fucking Jellicent?

OK.

-.-.-.-

So on that note, I want the community to take a look at Meru's sand stall team. Here.

For some background knowledge, this team was built mid-BW1. In other words, when this team was built... Keldeo did not exist as a threat.

However, I'm sure that most of you can see that this team is more than capable of handling Keldeo. Hell, I know half the community has tried this team and can attest to it. Which brings me to my next point -- according to this discussion atm, Keldeo is muscling through that Jellicent, Roserade, and Latias with no problems. However, there is something you should note -- Jellicent, Roserade, and Latias; while only "checks", are still more than enough to deal with Keldeo. Why, you ask? Simple: Stall can run enough checks to play around Keldeo, just like offense can.

MikeDawg, I never once said the stall mons in my post were counters. I brought them up because they can check Keldeo, and with the plethora of checks Stall can run to check Keldeo, Keldeo hardly needs to be "countered" as the number of common checks can more than handle Keldeo.

Now while the fact that "Keldeo can't be countered, so it must be Uber" might be used, I have a counter to that: technically, nothing can switch into Terrakion (+2 rock gem Stone Edge, or +1 for LandoT, can murder all of its "counter", while nothing can escape a 2HKO from the CB set and the SubSalac puts pressure on offense). In essense, Terrakion is like Keldeo but prone to Scizor (and even then you Sub or Protect and can often beat Scizor anyway. Plus, like I mentioned earlier, Goth!!!).

Then there are things like CB KyuB, that stall cannot possibly "counter" either.

My point is that stall has to run numerous of checks to beat top tier OU threats in the metagame we have today. Heavy Offense already works like that so it never changed, but stall has. Meru's team has 3 Keldeo checks, AND IT WASN'T EVEN BUILT WHEN KELDEO WAS AROUND. This means that Keldeo isn't putting more of a stress on teambuilding than KyuB is or Terrakion is or any other top tier threat.


-.-.-.-

I apologize for quoting and answering, but MikeDawg you came off as a bit rude to me which was why I responded. Please be a bit more respectful in your responses, ok?

I do not plan to do this again, but I merely wanted to make some of my points more clear since they were not done in my OP.

Finally, as for the bulk Keldeo posses, I only meant that while it is bulky, it's often manageable. For instance, there are plenty of things in OU that can take +2 Extreme Speed from Lucario BEFORE hazard damage. This is why Lucario teams are often paired with Custap Skarm -- the spike support is essential.

Ultimately, in BW2, every Pokemon has the ability to cripple it's counters. Just look at Terrakion. However, things like CM Keldeo don't see much usage -- just like SubSD Rock Gem Terrakion doesn't. So I digress, Keldeo has more than enough checks in the metagame to keep it from being what I would consider broken.

Also, is it just me, or did we up (without anyone telling us?) the "standard support" quota we can give to a suspect Pokemon? Before LandoI, most suspect tests only allowed SR support or weather conditions -- not CB TTar or Scarf Toed, but only their weather abilities. Like Sand Force, Sand Veil, Hurricane acc., rain boosted STABS, etc. We never used weather inducers beyond their weather abilities -- so why are we doing it now?

EDIT:
AJC: That's false (what you said about rain) considering that Keldeo works equally well on Weatherless and Sand.
MikeDawg: :) forgiven

 

[AJC]

keldeo is the last remaining thing that makes Rain pretty much superior as a weather who cares about resistances when most of them still get 2-3 OHKOed after at least SR Keldeo forces a unhealthy amount of offensive pressure on just about anything in the game and the few things that don't are super easy to work around to stop their job of hindering keldeo.

you don't even need to actually Kill things with keldeo although that's just a bonus since the things that do take hits from keldeo are pretty much forced to recover after dealing with keldeo in the case of regen mons switch out to which means they aren't don't anything else which eases pressure off you.

keldeo it's good as both a sweep and a wallbreaker because of it's stupidly good offensive pressure.

the only reason to Not use keldeo is pretty much because your running a team that will hinder keldeo's jobs

 

[MikeDawg]

SR is as minimal as support gets. If pursuit was that common, pokemon like Latios wouldn't be getting near the usage it gets.
A pursuit trapper on your opponents team is NOT a standard battle condition

Since it is the keldeo USER that dictates whether that battle condtion exists, though, it must be assumed in discussion.

It isn't like spikes where you could argue "what about a spinner/no set up opprotunities/etc."

If the keldeo user wants something with pursuit, they have an inherent guarenteed access to it

#bantrapping

Edit: @Shurtugal I apologize. My intentions were not to be abrasive (in fact I believe I was watching legally blond the musical while posting that :p) thanks for clarifying your points!

 

[Ropeburn]

I try to stay out of these threads as much as possible because I find that users make a post and then, when presented with a counterpoint, they feel obligated to continue defending their first post despite it's flaws. On IRC people tend to be more willing to change or modify their opinions, but that is neither here nor there.

Here are some loose thoughts that I have:

1. Keldeo is hard to set-up on. I can't think of anything that sets up on EB Keldeo in an effective way. Latias can spam CM while its speed gets dropped by icy wind, and it is the only pokemon that can set-up on non-choiced Keldeo. Chou so graciously pointed out why I don't have to discuss setting up on Choiced Keldeo in this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...tial-suspect-test.3486689/page-2#post-4782436

2. Keldeo has few innate weaknesses and many innate strengths: It is not easily trapped, it resists Stealth Rocks, and no priority move does significant damage to it: At +2 Breloom and Lucario don't come close to KOing it because it has perfectly solid bulk. With it's great STAB coverage and speed, offensive teams are going to struggle to force it out, let alone KO it. Unboosted Stab outrages from Garchomp and Salamence do not kill it, nor does Terrakion's Close Combat. So three common offensive choice scarf pokemon are often unable to handle Keldeo in a satisfactory way, they'll be OHKOed while failing to kill Keldeo even after sand storm damage, so they cannot even hope to trade themselves for a KO on Keldeo. Of course I could use pokemon faster than Keldeo, but only Lati@s are good enough to fit on every team and I can probably only have 1 Lati@s on a team. A typical weatherless offensive team might have 1 choice Scarf Pokemon that can't switch into Keldeo, 1 Lati@s, and 4 pokemon that are slower or speed tie with Keldeo. I think this illustrates how much of a problem Keldeo is for offense.

3. Keldeo has counters and can be managed, but this is a result of a metagame that has adapted to it in extreme ways. To me Keldeo is what Salamence and Latias were in Dpp, and it should be banned for the same reasons that they were at the time: they centralize the metagame around certain typings. When Latias and Salamence were OU in Dpp the metagame was Dragons and Steels. Every team certainly had 2 steels, and most offenses had 2 dragons as well. Keldeo is doing the same thing now for Water. When I go to build an offensive team, I need 3 water resists because I have to deal with Rain and the possibility of Scarf Keldeo moping the floor with my frail pokemon. I've seen many players like BKC (iirc) complain that they can't use Latios because they need Latias to check Keldeo thoroughly. So it is certain that offensive teams are inhibited by Keldeo, and I doubt that anyone is foolish enough to assert that Keldeo isn't inhibiting stall: Chansey isn't being used because it can't handle Secret Sword and so stall relies on less efficient and less resilient pokemon like Amoongus and Celebi because they can deal with Keldeo. By relying on these pokemon instead of resilient Chansey, Stall becomes much weaker to certain special attackers that they could normally handle 'easily,' like Alakazam, Gengar, and Lati@s. The metagame is being defined by what Keldeo and Rain do for Water and every team style suffers for it.

I could choose to ignore the prevalence of strong water type moves and create teams that are very efficient against Sand and Weatherless, but that means essentially forfeiting matches when I have to play against Rain or Specs/Scarf Keldeo, this is because teams that are good against Sand and Weatherless usually do not contain 3 superfluous pokemon that were selected mostly because they resist water. The point I'm trying to make is that Keldeo + Rain creates a situation where I'm forced to choose between taking losses against Keldeo+Rain or taking losses against other styles because I had to dedicate so many resources in teambuilding to dealing with Keldeo+Rain.


I hope I made sense...

You're definitely hitting the nail on the head, where I'm coming from. I don't play Stall, so it's interesting to think the result Keldeo has on it. Celebi and Amoongus certainly aren't bad, but when you have to have a dedicated pokemon like that on a team, you're selling yourself short. Removing Keldeo could not only help Stall, but also diversify our options.

 

[Chou Toshio]

this thread:

user 1: celebi latias amoongus and jellicent are keldeo counters!

user 2: no, all of those (except amoongus) can be beaten by keldeo itself with little to no problem and even if keldeo cant by itself, a really little addition to a team (nothing out of the ordinary) will ensure keldeo wins. regarding amoongus: amoongus sucks

user 1: Relying on having the correct hidden power AND Icy Wind is hardly "beating with little to no problem." Jellicent can only be beaten by CM + HP Ghost (which still ends up with a Keldeo half-dead to Toxic most of the time, and means you're not using Icy Wind); Celebi is only beaten by HP Bug (which is worthless against Jellicent); Gyarados is only beaten by rain boosted attacks (while everyone complains about TTar + Keld) or HP Electric (which is worthless against Celebi); Icy Wind is useful but weak (and while you are now beating Salamence and Dragonite, you are not beating Jellicent); and all the Choice Sets are having to lock themselves into weak HP or Icy Wind and predict right to hit its counters. Amoongus AND Roserade have little problem with any of these moves. PLUS Keldeo is outsped and revenge killed by a number of the meta's main threats. How the heck is Keldeo "beating its checks with little to no problem"?

user 2: no, all of those (except amoongus) can be beaten by keldeo itself with little to no problem!

srsly?


This reminds me of the inane DPP Garchomp posts where players seemed to believe Garchomp would always carry SD, Sub, EQ, Outrage AND Dragon Claw, Fire Fang AND Fire Blast, Draco Meteor, Yache Berry, Leftovers, Choice Scarf, Choice Band, would have sand up and you would miss.

Instead, Keldeo always has TTar AND Politoad support, has HP Bug, Ghost, and Electric, in addition to CM and Icy Wind and is using CScarf, CSpecs, and switching attacks with E-Belt simultaneously.

To clarify, I do think it worth testing though; I just don't think it should be banned as of yet.

 

[reyscarface]

thanks for deleting my post whoever

anyways as i said, your post is fundamentally wrong because you assume teams these days are: dragonite amoonguss celebi gyarados and 2 fillers. no.

btw nice argument there, you just compared keldeo to the single biggest threat in dpp that ended up being banned yet you say keldeo doesnt deserve the same treatment oh boy.

all keldeo needs is one coverage move to be the right one for him to sweep your whole team and if you think it plays our any different in a battle you need to start playing more or get better.

and to everyone who thinks 4mss is a bad thing, you also need to get to play more. 4mss means im more unpredictable AND threatening, not less effective wtf?

 

[Chou Toshio]

Just because the threat was banned doesn't mean those specific arguments weren't stupid. It wasn't the dumb posts that got Garchomp banned.

 

[peng]

itt everyone is a genius who knows what 4 moves and item keldeo is running immediately at team preview

when you are playing against keldeo you have to assume all of those possibilities before you can rule them out, exactly the same as dpp garchomp, exactly the same as genesect, exactly the same as landorus.

seriously guys stop theorymonning and go and actually play some pokemon please. just because a pokemon needs 2-3 sets to be threatening to the entire meta doesn't make it not broken.