Keldeo, evaluating a potential suspect test.

[Princess Bubblegum]

Keldeo is really good but I don't think he's worthy of a ban. I have a team where my strategy is to take out Celebi/Jelli/Tenta/Amoongus/Gyara/Latias/Latios, make sure I win the weather war, weaken everything else that resists water to the point that it can be KO'd, and then let my scarf Keldeo loose and spam surf or hydro pump for the win. I played a game just today where I was down 5-2, but everything the other guy had left was sufficiently weakened and my rain was up so I was able to spam surf for the win. It reminds me of RBY Tauros in a way. If you let him out too early, he might barely kill one poke, but if you play it right he can clean up entire teams.

Tauros didn't even have any hard counters, but Keldeo has at least those 7 I named. Granted, it's a little different now because the pony can get around those counters with hidden power, but you only get one hidden power. He doesn't have an answer to everything, and it's possible to outplay the person using Keldeo. Not worthy of a ban imo.

Tauros isn't a good example for a variety of reasons, the first being that the RBY metagame is almost entirely different than today's OU outside of the name, you might as well be trying to make a comparison to Hackmons or Little Cup. Secondly, while Tauros has no hard counters (bar Cloyster) there are certainly a variety of Pokemon which can take a hit rather well and weaken it down or even kill it, like Exeggutor and Snorlax. More importantly though, pretty much every use able Pokemon in RBY can combat Tauros in some way or another, even Chansey can cripple with Thunder Wave or KO with Counter.

In the future, avoid making comparisons to early generations, as not only are they treated differently than today, existing before the modern definitions of checks and counters or even Ubers, but in RBY's case, even the basic mechanics are different.

 

[Curtains]

To be honest I don't see how people don't feel any differently about keldeo then they do with with politoed... They both come in, have extremely strong boosted attacks (scald, hydro pump) and can run alternate moves to hurt their counters. Both of them basically forces you to use something pursuit/u-turn weak which then makes pokemon with u-turn/pursuit stronger. The cycle then continues. My feelings about keldeo are that without rain it isnt broken. In rain it is broken. In fact most water types are broken in rain as their surfs and hydro pumps always will be a hassle to try to contain. I have used the LO set and basically It did ok. I wasn't to impressed because the combination of celebi + jellicent beats it pretty easily. Once they figure out the HP it isnt too hard to stop. Yeah you could have tyranitar, but look how many pokemon can set up on that. Keldeo most likely won't beat teams on its own because of the obvious high usage of water resist needed to even be competitive. Keldeo serves as a good late game cleaner after you damage all of its checks. It does really good against shitty stall teams.. But it struggles more against stall teams that stack water resist. ABSTAIN. but give it a test.

 

[Ropeburn]

In fact, I could really turn this around and say that Terrakion is a LOT less Risky to use than Keldeo, because it provides FAR less opportunity for enemies to set up for a sweep. The worst Terrakion's checks can do is Lando-T using Rock Polish/Gravity, or Skarm setting up spikes. I guess Gliscor could try setting up SD/Agility on it, but are we really afraid of that? Almost every set up sweeper fears one of its STABs, which EVERY Terrakion set has.

But you also have to take into mind Terrakion's weakness. Getting Terrakion in is a lot harder than it sounds. That rock typing is a big Achille's hill...STAB Stone Edge is great and all, but Rock typing opens you up to Earthquakes, Bullet Punches, Mach Punches, Scalds, and Giga Drains. I can see where you get the comparison, but honestly Terrakion is a lot riskier in my mind. Keldeo, on the other hand, hoists a respectable amount of resistances, namely to Water and Rock. Combine that with 90 Base Stat defenses, and switching it in doesn't become to threatening.

To be honest I don't see how people don't feel any differently about keldeo then they do with with politoed... They both come in, have extremely strong boosted attacks (scald, hydro pump) and can run alternate moves to hurt their counters. Both of them basically forces you to use something pursuit/u-turn weak which then makes pokemon with u-turn/pursuit stronger. The cycle then continues. My feelings about keldeo are that without rain it isnt broken. In rain it is broken. In fact most water types are broken in rain as their surfs and hydro pumps always will be a hassle to try to contain. I have used the LO set and basically It did ok. I wasn't to impressed because the combination of celebi + jellicent beats it pretty easily. Once they figure out the HP it isnt too hard to stop. Yeah you could have tyranitar, but look how many pokemon can set up on that. Keldeo most likely won't beat teams on its own because of the obvious high usage of water resist needed to even be competitive. Keldeo serves as a good late game cleaner after you damage all of its checks. It does really good against shitty stall teams.. But it struggles more against stall teams that stack water resist. ABSTAIN. but give it a test.

Now you're delving into Drizzle, which should be avoided at all costs, or else threads get derailed. For now, the metagame should be built around Drizzle, until X and Y roll around. I'm a little confused, have you tried any of the other sets, because I've found Life Orb to be Keldeo's weakest set, as that's not where its strength is. Expert Belt gets surprise kills on Celebi, opening the floodgates (literally) for the other water pokemon on the rain team, Choice Specs practically 2HKOS everything in the metagame that doesn't have water absorb or Wonder Guard, and the Scarf Set is probably one of the best revenge pokemon in the tier.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

To be honest, most of the counters to Keldeo aren't Pursuit weak. I mean on paper they are, but they all have viable options to getting around Pursuit.

Celebi - Celebi has Baton Pass and out speeds every non scarfed Tyranitar

Latias - Latias has Reflect type (while I agree this isn't as viable, it can be used if need be)

Jellicent - Will-O-Wisp keeps Scizor and Tyranitar at bay, and most Jellicent are now runnng enough speed to out speed banded Tyranitar.

Some other checks aren't even weak to Pursuit, like Toxicroak (who counters both Tyranitar and Keldeo), Amoongus, etc.

Anyway, I still don't think mentioning Tyranitar is a good idea when looking at Keldeo's position in OU. I dunno, I mean sure Tyranitar can remove a lot of it's counters, but the same can be said about a lot of Pokemon. Doesn't make them broken.

 

[PDC]

As if Politoed has amazing dual STABS, great speed and offenses, and has pretty solid defenses. Politoed can set up Rain, yeah, but Keldeo BY FAR Is a much bigger offensive threat than Politoed. There is no possible way Politoed can open up and break down teams as well as Keldeo can, it just can't at all. Politoed works well with Keldeo, but to be perfectly honest Keldeo does a lot better on Sand or even on weatherless than it does in Rain. Pair Keldeo with Tyranitar or Garchomp and you have an amazing combination, hell, Keldeo can be on basically any weather to a great extent except sun. Not that many water types are broken in Rain, In fact most of them are worn down very fast and manageable under Rain. Starmie is very powerful under Rain with an Analytic Hydro Pump, Thunder, Ice Beam, or whatever but it isn't even be questioned for suspect. I really don't see that much visibly broken that is a water type in Rain outside of maybe Keldeo, which I already stated does far better on Sand than in Rain. Yes, the combination of Celebi + Jellicent beats it easily, but in itself CM HP Ghost Keldeo can beat them both entirely. Keldeo preforms well ALL game and it can severely damage some teams on its own depending on whether it be Calm Mind, Expert Belt, or Specs. Even Choice Scarf sets pose a large threat to light offensive Rain teams, who don't like taking Hydro Pumps or Surfs, especially when Keldeo scares Ferrothorn as well, that can put huge pressure on the team. Keldeo is a good Pokemon obviously, and Rain is in no way what makes it broken. Maybe a small part? Ok, I can accept that, but the major reason why? No, not at all.

 

[MikeDawg]

To be honest, most of the counters to Keldeo aren't Pursuit weak. I mean on paper they are, but they all have viable options to getting around Pursuit.

Celebi - Celebi has Baton Pass and out speeds every non scarfed Tyranitar

Latias - Latias has Reflect type (while I agree this isn't as viable, it can be used if need be)

Jellicent - Will-O-Wisp keeps Scizor and Tyranitar at bay, and most Jellicent are now runnng enough speed to out speed banded Tyranitar.

Some other checks aren't even weak to Pursuit, like Toxicroak (who counters both Tyranitar and Keldeo), Amoongus, etc.

Anyway, I still don't think mentioning Tyranitar is a good idea when looking at Keldeo's position in OU. I dunno, I mean sure Tyranitar can remove a lot of it's counters, but the same can be said about a lot of Pokemon. Doesn't make them broken.

Keep in mind what this says about keldeo and the like themselves though. Celebi seems to have overwhelmingly run u-turn rather than baton pass until it became so imperative to keep it alive to stave off keldeo and lando. I've used reflect type latias and it works great as a keldeo counter but not much else as that slot for reflect type is generally needed for something like hpfire or roost. Not only that, but if the ttar in question has a scarf, latias doesnt even have a chance to reflect type as it is outsped and ko (assuming ttar comes in after a dmeteor kill or a predicted hp fire or something... although you can predict the ttar switch in, using reflect type on the switch means that you got nothing done and will just take damage (and why not double switch if you are sure of the switch in?)). I don't see why anyone ever really considered jellicent pursuitable (lest it is full special defensive, in which case it's a bit more susceptible) but phys defensive jelli struggles agianst hp ghosts from keld, meaning it might not even need pursuit support. And the threat of pursuit is often enough to keep jelli in, meaning whatever type of tar is free to just crunch instead.

Toxi is good (but only bulkier sets) but amoongus is almost fully outclassed in a keldeo-less meta.

For the most part, a rather large amount of keldeo counters are only prevelant because of keldeo, and that isn't very desirable.

 

[Chou Toshio]

But you also have to take into mind Terrakion's weakness. Getting Terrakion in is a lot harder than it sounds. That rock typing is a big Achille's hill...STAB Stone Edge is great and all, but Rock typing opens you up to Earthquakes, Bullet Punches, Mach Punches, Scalds, and Giga Drains. I can see where you get the comparison, but honestly Terrakion is a lot riskier in my mind. Keldeo, on the other hand, hoists a respectable amount of resistances, namely to Water and Rock. Combine that with 90 Base Stat defenses, and switching it in doesn't become to threatening.

The argument wasn't about a Pokemon's overall effectiveness-- but the risk it presents to your team. You are confusing the two points.

Terrakion itself can be taken down more easily than Keldeo-- no question there. I won't even argue about whether or not Keldeo is a more effective Pokemon overall (but again I'd say BW1 Terrakion was a better poke than BW2 Keldeo). In anycase, we're talking about RISK not effectiveness-- since that's the argument I disagreed with.

The point is that Terrakion provides your opponent with far less opportunity to potentially set up, and things that can try to set up in front of him are far less dangerous. While there are no absolutes in weighing "risk," I think there is definitely grounds to argue that Keldeo brings more risk to your team than Terrakion or Garchomp.

One thing is for certain, is that you CANNOT easily claim beyond any doubt that Keldeo is the less risky Pokemon. It's not clear at all.

Keldeo is risky in that it can potentially allow several dangerous Pokemon to setup and Sweep. This is virtually impossible against Terrakion or Garchomp.

 

[MikeDawg]

At worst, this is a case of my poor example. But you can't seriously be suggesting that a specs keldeo in the rain is easier to set up on than a banded terrakion.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence in rain: 294-346 (88.82 - 104.53%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 176-207 (53.17 - 62.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I would feel much much more comfortable coming in on terrakion to set up later in the game than keldeo (who can ko WITHOUT rocks)

I'm really missing your point.

And you skipped the whole first half of my post. The risk factor is not the sole factor at all. Add in keldeo's technical durability and it fits more and more into what was defined as an uber.

 

[FrostFire]

The argument wasn't about a Pokemon's overall effectiveness-- but the risk it presents to your team. You are confusing the two points.

Terrakion itself can be taken down more easily than Keldeo-- no question there. I won't even argue about whether or not Keldeo is a more effective Pokemon overall (but again I'd say BW1 Terrakion was a better poke than BW2 Keldeo). In anycase, we're talking about RISK not effectiveness-- since that's the argument I disagreed with.

The point is that Terrakion provides your opponent with far less opportunity to potentially set up, and things that can try to set up in front of him are far less dangerous. While there are no absolutes in weighing "risk," I think there is definitely grounds to argue that Keldeo brings more risk to your team than Terrakion or Garchomp.

One thing is for certain, is that you CANNOT easily claim beyond any doubt that Keldeo is the less risky Pokemon. It's not clear at all.

Keldeo is risky in that it can potentially allow several dangerous Pokemon to setup and Sweep. This is virtually impossible against Terrakion or Garchomp.

I kind of agree with this, but kind of don't at the same time, as I think it goes a bit far. There ARE dangerous set-up sweepers that can boost against a choice-locked Terrakion; for example, if Terrak is locked in to Close Combat, then DD Dragonite becomes a serious threat (especially if SR is off the field/ Multiscale intact). Volcarona comes to mind as well, and Gyarados. On the other hand, if it's locked into Stone Edge, you could be giving Breloom a free Swords Dance. Or Lucario, I suppose. Heck, you might even run into the rare SubCM Jirachi, which (esp. if it's the rain variant) you really don't want to give a free turn to.

Don't get me wrong; I see what you're saying, and there are definitely some key threats that can use a choice locked Keldeo to set-up - like CM Latias, NP Celebi, and even the same DD Dragonite I mentioned before. I just think that this post understates Keldeo's power, and kind of overstates Terrakion's power. Also, keep in mind that Keldeo may well be running an Expert Belt set, so it's not necessarily locked in to attacks (and you won't necessarily know that till it's too late, what with bluffing the choice item). Of course, Terrak might not be choiced either, in which case it's hard to set up on as well. But I think the point I'm making is that, in terms of 'risk', and other sweepers using you as set-up fodder, Keldeo and Terrakion are much closer together than it's made out to be above.

Also, just a brief point on the 'water immunes'. I really wouldn't say there is a *group* of pokemon called 'water immunes' in OU. They are Jellicent, Toxicroak and Vaporeon, none of which break top 25 in usage, and only one of which (Jelli) is really common. It's an important point, because for the most part, it means Specs Keldeo's Hpump really is going to be doing pretty big damage to most things, even with a resist.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I am not talking about when both are using Choiced sets AND the opponent KNOWS you are using Choice, AND your opponent knows what move you're locked into-- that's pointless to talk about here.

At worst, this is a case of my poor example. But you can't seriously be suggesting that a specs keldeo in the rain is easier to set up on than a banded terrakion.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence in rain: 294-346 (88.82 - 104.53%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 176-207 (53.17 - 62.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

You're comparing apples to oranges here. You should be comparing Stone Edge to Hydro Pump, and Fighting STAB to Fighting STAB. Obviously, Stone Edge would destroy Salamence.

Besides, I didn't say Choice Locked.

Obviously, ANY Choice-Locked Pokemon is potentially set up bait when locked, AND the opponent knows it is locked AND knows what move it's locked into. Every Choice Poke presents this risk-- I assumed that would be something I wouldn't need to explain to you.

For non-choice locked sets, and for when the opponent doesn't know you are choiced or what move you will use, Terrakion is a lot more threatening to set up sweepers looking to set up.



In any case, I would urge you to not delve too deeply into this point. Whether or not Keldeo brings more risk to its team than Terrakion is not a central point to the discussion--

I merely meant to point out that Mike was wrong in stating that Keldeo brings less risk than other sweepers. That's also why I didn't address the rest of your post; I was mere pointing out this one wrong assertion. It cannot be established as fact, so you shouldn't try to base an argument around it. The main points of Keldeo's potential suspecting will be found in other aspects of Keldeo; try not to steer discussion too far off the main points.

 

[MMII]

I might have missed something from an earlier post but what is setting up a sweep on Keldeo? The only things in OU that I can think of that sets up a sweep on standard EBelt Keldeo is Toxicroak and Gyarados outside of Rain. The former sets up on Terrakion as well and the latter is situational. (while Terrakion has to deal with Lando-T and SubToxic Gliscor to an extent)

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

Is it just me or is Keldeo a bit overprepared for to be as effective as it could be? Maybe it's just the sheer number of pokemon that resist both it's STABs, but I feel like the higher I get up the ladder, the less teams I find that aren't already well prepared for Keldeo.

 

[Spinda]

Cuz Keldeo is so ridiculously easy to prepare for when trying to prepare for rain in general, I literally have trouble building a team that has a lot of trouble with keldeo that would be good without it around

 

[100%]

Is it just me or is Keldeo a bit overprepared for to be as effective as it could be? Maybe it's just the sheer number of pokemon that resist both it's STABs, but I feel like the higher I get up the ladder, the less teams I find that aren't already well prepared for Keldeo.

Ye, that's the same thing for me too. There a many things on the OU lader that resist its STAB,but its not the STAB, but how powerful it gets with the rain boost, meaning it can over power its resists, especially with Choice Specs.

 

[FrostFire]

I might have missed something from an earlier post but what is setting up a sweep on Keldeo? The only things in OU that I can think of that sets up a sweep on standard EBelt Keldeo is Toxicroak and Gyarados outside of Rain. The former sets up on Terrakion as well and the latter is situational. (while Terrakion has to deal with Lando-T and SubToxic Gliscor to an extent)

Yeah, this is really the problem I have with what Chou is saying. It's not a Terrakion-Keldeo thing, it's more the fact that there's this underlying implication that Keldeo is 'set-up fodder', or that somehow using it is going to really hurt you by giving your opponent an opportunity to get boosts on something dangerous. I mean, sure CM Latias could, theoretically, set-up on Keldeo, but in reality it almost never works; this is primarily because it's pursuit bait for Scizor and Tyranitar. On top of that, Keldeo could nail you with a few speed drops from Icy wind too, and if you're... inexperienced enough to continue trying to boost, you'll just end up facing Tyranitar/ Scizor, which'll put you in checkmate position. And as for Celebi, if we're not assuming that Keldeo is choiced, then Keldeo can potentially kill it with EB HP Bug (so no Nasty Pass). I really don't get the whole 'Keldeo is risky to use' thing at all, because in my experience, it's rarely set-up fodder for anything. The only exception to this might be late game when everything else is weakened, but at that point all discussion becomes moot anyway.

Also, it's probably important to remember here that this isn't really a discussion on brokeness (at least not yet); it's just whether or not we should suspect Keldeo. IMO, Keldeo is good enough to warrant a test.

 

[MikeDawg]

I am not talking about when both are using Choiced sets AND the opponent KNOWS you are using Choice, AND your opponent knows what move you're locked into-- that's pointless to talk about here.



You're comparing apples to oranges here. You should be comparing Stone Edge to Hydro Pump, and Fighting STAB to Fighting STAB. Obviously, Stone Edge would destroy Salamence.

Besides, I didn't say Choice Locked.

Obviously, ANY Choice-Locked Pokemon is potentially set up bait when locked, AND the opponent knows it is locked AND knows what move it's locked into. Every Choice Poke presents this risk-- I assumed that would be something I wouldn't need to explain to you.

I had assumed you meant choiced because otherwise I cannot fathom what exactly can set up on keldeo. The only "threatening" pokes that can come in are the latis and starmie, and they are, as mentioned, by something as simple as a ferrothorn or jirachi.

Terrakion on the other hand (if we are to assume life orb as well) still allows ACTUAL SET UP by lando-t or skarm (it can just roost stall or set up all day)

At the very least they are equal in creating setup opprotunities.

And as you mentioned, it isn't a central discussion, nor is it a central trait. The fact that it can maintain offensive pressure in the same vein as the "best" pokes of the 5th gen like terrakion COMBINED with its durability and crazy output contributes more and more to its image as an Uber.

I think a significant mention is being able to 1hko all the dragons with a resisted stab after rocks.

Also, it's probably important to remember here that this isn't really a discussion on brokeness (at least not yet); it's just whether or not we should suspect Keldeo. IMO, Keldeo is good enough to warrant a test

Oh gosh, I thought keldeo was already established as a suspect alongside lando. It most certainly deserves a test, I think that's hardly debatable. The brokenness is more controversial, but a test? I don't see a reason not to given the circumstances.

 

[haunter]

We suspect test a Pokemon only when there are heavy clues of its potential "brokenness". At the moment, some of us are not convinced that such clues exist.The point of this thread is for people who advocate a suspect test for Keldeo to provide valid arguments as to why it should be tested.

Also, I added a poll to this thread to see what the community, at large, thinks on the topic. It's going to stay open for 7 days, after which the council will take a decision on whether to test Keldeo or not.

 

[Myzozoa]

I try to stay out of these threads as much as possible because I find that users make a post and then, when presented with a counterpoint, they feel obligated to continue defending their first post despite it's flaws. On IRC people tend to be more willing to change or modify their opinions, but that is neither here nor there.

Here are some loose thoughts that I have:

1. Keldeo is hard to set-up on. I can't think of anything that sets up on EB Keldeo in an effective way. Latias can spam CM while its speed gets dropped by icy wind, and it is the only pokemon that can set-up on non-choiced Keldeo. Chou so graciously pointed out why I don't have to discuss setting up on Choiced Keldeo in this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...tial-suspect-test.3486689/page-2#post-4782436

2. Keldeo has few innate weaknesses and many innate strengths: It is not easily trapped, it resists Stealth Rocks, and no priority move does significant damage to it: At +2 Breloom and Lucario don't come close to KOing it because it has perfectly solid bulk. With it's great STAB coverage and speed, offensive teams are going to struggle to force it out, let alone KO it. Unboosted Stab outrages from Garchomp and Salamence do not kill it, nor does Terrakion's Close Combat. So three common offensive choice scarf pokemon are often unable to handle Keldeo in a satisfactory way, they'll be OHKOed while failing to kill Keldeo even after sand storm damage, so they cannot even hope to trade themselves for a KO on Keldeo. Of course I could use pokemon faster than Keldeo, but only Lati@s are good enough to fit on every team and I can probably only have 1 Lati@s on a team. A typical weatherless offensive team might have 1 choice Scarf Pokemon that can't switch into Keldeo, 1 Lati@s, and 4 pokemon that are slower or speed tie with Keldeo. I think this illustrates how much of a problem Keldeo is for offense.

3. Keldeo has counters and can be managed, but this is a result of a metagame that has adapted to it in extreme ways. To me Keldeo is what Salamence and Latias were in Dpp, and it should be banned for the same reasons that they were at the time: they centralize the metagame around certain typings. When Latias and Salamence were OU in Dpp the metagame was Dragons and Steels. Every team certainly had 2 steels, and most offenses had 2 dragons as well. Keldeo is doing the same thing now for Water. When I go to build an offensive team, I need 3 water resists because I have to deal with Rain and the possibility of Scarf Keldeo moping the floor with my frail pokemon. I've seen many players like BKC (iirc) complain that they can't use Latios because they need Latias to check Keldeo thoroughly. So it is certain that offensive teams are inhibited by Keldeo, and I doubt that anyone is foolish enough to assert that Keldeo isn't inhibiting stall: Chansey isn't being used because it can't handle Secret Sword and so stall relies on less efficient and less resilient pokemon like Amoongus and Celebi because they can deal with Keldeo. By relying on these pokemon instead of resilient Chansey, Stall becomes much weaker to certain special attackers that they could normally handle 'easily,' like Alakazam, Gengar, and Lati@s. The metagame is being defined by what Keldeo and Rain do for Water and every team style suffers for it.

I could choose to ignore the prevalence of strong water type moves and create teams that are very efficient against Sand and Weatherless, but that means essentially forfeiting matches when I have to play against Rain or Specs/Scarf Keldeo, this is because teams that are good against Sand and Weatherless usually do not contain 3 superfluous pokemon that were selected mostly because they resist water. The point I'm trying to make is that Keldeo + Rain creates a situation where I'm forced to choose between taking losses against Keldeo+Rain or taking losses against other styles because I had to dedicate so many resources in teambuilding to dealing with Keldeo+Rain.


I hope I made sense...

 

[Spinda]

I try to stay out of these threads as much as possible because I find that users make a post and then, when presented with a counterpoint, they feel obligated to continue defending their first post despite it's flaws. On IRC people tend to be more willing to change or modify their opinions, but that is neither here nor there.

Here are some loose thoughts that I have:

1. Keldeo is hard to set-up on. I can't think of anything that sets up on EB Keldeo in an effective way. Latias can spam CM while its speed gets dropped by icy wind, and it is the only pokemon that can set-up on non-choiced Keldeo. Chou so graciously pointed out why I don't have to discuss setting up on Choiced Keldeo in this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...tial-suspect-test.3486689/page-2#post-4782436

2. Keldeo has few innate weaknesses and many innate strengths: It is not easily trapped, it resists Stealth Rocks, and no priority move does significant damage to it: At +2 Breloom and Lucario don't come close to KOing it because it has perfectly solid bulk. With it's great STAB coverage and speed, offensive teams are going to struggle to force it out, let alone KO it. Unboosted Stab outrages from Garchomp and Salamence do not kill it, nor does Terrakion's Close Combat. So three common offensive choice scarf pokemon are often unable to handle Keldeo in a satisfactory way, they'll be OHKOed while failing to kill Keldeo even after sand storm damage, so they cannot even hope to trade themselves for a KO on Keldeo. Of course I could use pokemon faster than Keldeo, but only Lati@s are good enough to fit on every team and I can probably only have 1 Lati@s on a team. A typical weatherless offensive team might have 1 choice Scarf Pokemon that can't switch into Keldeo, 1 Lati@s, and 4 pokemon that are slower or speed tie with Keldeo. I think this illustrates how much of a problem Keldeo is for offense.

3. Keldeo has counters and can be managed, but this is a result of a metagame that has adapted to it in extreme ways. To me Keldeo is what Salamence and Latias were in Dpp, and it should be banned for the same reasons that they were at the time: they centralize the metagame around certain typings. When Latias and Salamence were OU in Dpp the metagame was Dragons and Steels. Every team certainly had 2 steels, and most offenses had 2 dragons as well. Keldeo is doing the same thing now for Water. When I go to build an offensive team, I need 3 water resists because I have to deal with Rain and the possibility of Scarf Keldeo moping the floor with my frail pokemon. I've seen many players like BKC (iirc) complain that they can't use Latios because they need Latias to check Keldeo thoroughly. So it is certain that offensive teams are inhibited by Keldeo, and I doubt that anyone is foolish enough to assert that Keldeo isn't inhibiting stall: Chansey isn't being used because it can't handle Secret Sword and so stall relies on less efficient and less resilient pokemon like Amoongus and Celebi because they can deal with Keldeo. By relying on these pokemon instead of resilient Chansey, Stall becomes much weaker to certain special attackers that they could normally handle 'easily,' like Alakazam, Gengar, and Lati@s. The metagame is being defined by what Keldeo and Rain do for Water and every team style suffers for it.

I could choose to ignore the prevalence of strong water type moves and create teams that are very efficient against Sand and Weatherless, but that means essentially forfeiting matches when I have to play against Rain or Specs/Scarf Keldeo, this is because teams that are good against Sand and Weatherless usually do not contain 3 superfluous pokemon that were selected mostly because they resist water. The point I'm trying to make is that Keldeo + Rain creates a situation where I'm forced to choose between taking losses against Keldeo+Rain or taking losses against other styles because I had to dedicate so many resources in teambuilding to dealing with Keldeo+Rain.


I hope I made sense...

I actually remember stacking water resists before Keldeo even existed, it's an influence rain in general has always had on my teambuilding, and I'm not even saying I want rain banned instead, I consider it a part of bw that we need to accept, do we need to prepare for keldeo? Yes, of course, our previous water resists may have had to be replaced to deal with keldeo better but I think we could say that about most pokemon, if we didn't need to prepare for it, it wouldn't be OU. Do we need to overprepare for Keldeo? I guess it's debatable, but I think not.

 

[Usatoday]

I actually remember stacking water resists before Keldeo even existed, it's an influence rain in general has always had on my teambuilding, and I'm not even saying I want rain banned instead, I consider it a part of bw that we need to accept, do we need to prepare for keldeo? Yes, of course, our previous water resists may have had to be replaced to deal with keldeo better but I think we could say that about most pokemon, if we didn't need to prepare for it, it wouldn't be OU. Do we need to overprepare for Keldeo? I guess it's debatable, but I think not.

Are you kidding me? Instead of getting to use any grass types for water attacks from rain spam ferrothorn for example, I now have to use a Celebii or a Latias. For me keldeo forces us to use certain pokemon over others when the other pokemon may be better for the team itself because it gives better utility for example. Keldeo essentially makes itself a nuisance for the team because it the opposing team needs atleast one strong check to keldeo. Just my opinion but I feel that keldeo is unhealthy on today's metagame.

 

[h34d4ch3]

I'm probably just rehashing what someone already said, or stating the obvious but; aren't most of Keldeo's checks and counters removed by pursuit users?

It's obvious that Ttar is a great parter, and it's because it can take out Celebii, Jellicent, Starmie, and Lati@s with ease. Arguably all of Keldeo's most potent counters are trapped and removed with extreme ease. Keldeo may not always have the tools to blast right through it's counters (although it usually does, given the right hidden power), but the metagame is almost set up for it since the things it has trouble handling get picked off by two of the most common pokemon arround: Ttar and Scizor.
The only two keldeo checks that spring to mind that aren't completely wrecked by pursuit are amoongus and tentacruel, and Keldeo can still get past them with the Calm mind-sub set, or using hp electric and icy wind.
Keldeo has it's checks and counters, but the metagame is set up so that most of them can be easily removed, and the few remaining can be muscled through with the correct sets.

 

[Spinda]

Are you kidding me? Instead of getting to use any grass types for water attacks from rain spam ferrothorn for example, I now have to use a Celebii or a Latias. For me keldeo forces us to use certain pokemon over others when the other pokemon may be better for the team itself because it gives better utility for example. Keldeo essentially makes itself a nuisance for the team because it the opposing team needs atleast one strong check to keldeo. Just my opinion but I feel that keldeo is unhealthy on today's metagame.

Maybe it didn't affect me as much because I'm personally not naturally drawn towards ferrothorn at all, it's a pokemon I rarely use as a water resist because well.. It doesn't have natural cure. The sheer presence of scald practically forces me to run Celebi, Roserade, Starmie, Jellicent, or Gastrodon, all of those deal with keldeo quite well. And considering you need 3 water resists or more to deal with rain properly even without keldeo in the picture, I'd imagine 99% of the time you'd run a decent keldeo check alongside of that ferro either way. I feel perfectly fine dealing with Keldeo by having say, an offensive latios as my only real keldeo check, and there's plenty of pokes out there who check it better than him.

 

[Usatoday]

Maybe it didn't affect me as much because I'm personally not naturally drawn towards ferrothorn at all, it's a pokemon I rarely use as a water resist because well.. It doesn't have natural cure. The sheer presence of scald practically forces me to run Celebi, Roserade, Starmie, Jellicent, or Gastrodon, all of those deal with keldeo quite well. And considering you need 3 water resists or more to deal with rain properly even without keldeo in the picture, I'd imagine 99% of the time you'd run a decent keldeo check alongside of that ferro either way. I feel perfectly fine dealing with Keldeo by having say, an offensive latios as my only real keldeo check, and there's plenty of pokes out there who check it better than him.

You don't get it I was using ferrothorn as an example and I'm not comparing it to celebi I just saying that it's annoying to be forced to run celebi if I want a defensive grass type most of the time, 3 checks to rain are completely different to 3 checks to keldeo as rotom wash a premier nuisance to rain cannot even come close to checking keldeo as it is 2HKO'd by secret sword after stealth rock damage. Not to mention keldeo is seen oftenly alongside scizor or tyranitar which utilize pursuit so latios is not the best thing to run as a sole keldeo check as it will be killed by pursuit so it jellicent roserade can't do jack to tyranitar bar the extremely rare life orb leaf storm, celebi is the only one which can avoid it bar reflect type starmie and physically defensive gastrodon.

 

[Spinda]

You don't get it I was using ferrothorn as an example and I'm not comparing it to celebi I just saying that it's annoying to be forced to run celebi if I want a defensive grass type most of the time, 3 checks to rain are completely different to 3 checks to keldeo as rotom wash a premier nuisance to rain cannot even come close to checking keldeo as it is 2HKO'd by secret sword after stealth rock damage. Not to mention keldeo is seen oftenly alongside scizor or tyranitar which utilize pursuit so latios is not the best thing to run as a sole keldeo check as it will be killed by pursuit so it jellicent roserade can't do jack to tyranitar bar the extremely rare life orb leaf storm, celebi is the only one which can avoid it bar reflect type starmie and physically defensive gastrodon.

As I said before, if pursuit and gothitelle support are gonna keep being mentioned in suspects, I'd much rather see those moves and abilities banned.
I'm extremely anti-pursuit, and I'm also sick and tired of all the team mate support every suspect has been given for reasoning, not to mention keldeo is suddenly a lot less threatening with ttar support because there's no rain boost to its main STAB.

 

[BKC]

with ttar support there's also no jellicent to wall it!