Useful yes, but definitely not common. HP is not even listed individually under Honchkrow's usage statistics.
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Honchkrow - The Don
- Thread starter LonelyNess
- Start date
The usage statistics are generally flawed when looking at something that you would see a major change with, because BL Pokemon were added AFTER data was already being collected. I won't say they are completely flawed, because I did use them in the Donphan argument, but I'll try to explain.
With Donphan, there is no reason that it would change its move set, because nothing really changed regarding its ability to set up Stealth Rock.
With Honchkrow, so many new threats have joined, and specifically Rhyperior poses a huge threat to Honchkrow if it doesn't run Hidden Power Grass.
If we had 100% valid statistics, this would be much more clear.
If you are using honchkrow specifically as a sweeper, then you aren't using honchkrow to its fullest potential at all.
Honchkrow is broken because it can blow a hole in just about any defense this tier can make. It doesn't need to predict much at all to be utterly devastating to a team, and the best way to "punish" the user for using honchkorw is to have SR up. It can switch out at will and has many opportunities to switch into a match with little or no damage dealt to it (besides SR that may not even be up).
The thing about honchkrow's main switch ins (barring arcanine who I now love above just about any other uu pokemon) is that they are usually the SR users on a team.
1) If the steelix, regirock, etc havent been in the match yet, then sure, they can come in and wall honchkrow. However, since they havent been in the match yet, honchkrow probably got a free switchin due to lack of SR. Now that your bulky SR user is in, you are not going to want to lay SR with such a massive threat on the other side of the screen without being very bold. SO, you attack and hit their pokemon that can force out your bulky honchkrow blocker without getting up rocks at all. This means your honchkrow check is no longer a check at all and it is 2hko'd just like so many other defensive pokemon in the tier.
2) the SR user switched into an attack from a different pokemon taking even seemingly minor damage to get up SR early, and now its in 2hko range because it had to take those hits to get up rocks which means honchkrow is still completely capable of taking out several pokemon even with SR up.
These situations are very common, and very easy to set up for the honchkrow user. Its not a sweeper as much as a wrecking ball that makes for a broken support pokemon that at the same time has the wonderful ability to clean up opposing teams thanks to its incredibly powerful priority move.
How much does HP Grass do to Donphan? Just asking.
But seriously, I've found it ridiculously effective. Not just on Rhyperior (who it can't OHKO, sometimes not even after BB recoil), but on Omastar and Kabutops as well. It makes it even better against rain teams, seeing as you don't have to lower your offenses.
rhyperior and omastar take 4x from Hp grass
I'm going to fully admit that I never used HP Grass on my Honchkrow, nor have I had any significant trouble with Honchkrow since the new additions because 99% of the time it either:
A) Gets U-Turned to and OHKO'd by Counter on leadZam.
B) Switches into LeadZam and Pursuits, gets OHKO'd by Counter.
C) Switches into LeadZam after the sash is activated then gets Sucker Punch Encored, set up on, and caught on the wrong side of a sweep.
D) Gets walled/killed by Rhyperior or Steelix.
These are very team-specific for me. I could build a Honchkrow weak team and see how Honchkrow rips through at least something, but I'm really not inclined to.
So let's clarify a bit: Is Honchkrow BL because it can rip a hole in stall or on an offensive team? There is a lot of faster priority (Negates Sucker Punch) and easy sacrifices that can be made to kill Honchkrow (it's great to see him kill himself on BB/LO Recoil after SR when you switch in a high HP target as the sacrifice) so Offensive teams shouldn't have much trouble.
Like I said, Honchkrow is on the fence. He's a great wallbreaker and especially stallbreaker, but I don't see him meeting the offensive condition because SR weakness and recoil prevent him from being able to sweep. As far as the "support condition wallbreaker" argument, I'm really not sure I'm convinced. A well built team should have an answer to Honchkrow, I think the analogy to Salamence is appropriate, if they don't they pay the price.
A) Gets U-Turned to and OHKO'd by Counter on leadZam.
B) Switches into LeadZam and Pursuits, gets OHKO'd by Counter.
C) Switches into LeadZam after the sash is activated then gets Sucker Punch Encored, set up on, and caught on the wrong side of a sweep.
D) Gets walled/killed by Rhyperior or Steelix.
These are very team-specific for me. I could build a Honchkrow weak team and see how Honchkrow rips through at least something, but I'm really not inclined to.
So let's clarify a bit: Is Honchkrow BL because it can rip a hole in stall or on an offensive team? There is a lot of faster priority (Negates Sucker Punch) and easy sacrifices that can be made to kill Honchkrow (it's great to see him kill himself on BB/LO Recoil after SR when you switch in a high HP target as the sacrifice) so Offensive teams shouldn't have much trouble.
Like I said, Honchkrow is on the fence. He's a great wallbreaker and especially stallbreaker, but I don't see him meeting the offensive condition because SR weakness and recoil prevent him from being able to sweep. As far as the "support condition wallbreaker" argument, I'm really not sure I'm convinced. A well built team should have an answer to Honchkrow, I think the analogy to Salamence is appropriate, if they don't they pay the price.
I think it's safe to say that Night Slash is no longer really a viable option on Honchkrow anymore (or rather, it's not that it isn't viable, but that it's just not useful anymore). Pursuit can already fill the need that Night Slash filled (reliable Dark STAB that breaks Substitutes), and has the added benefit of doing extra damage to fleeing Pokemon. On the Life Orb Honchkrow set, there's really no reason to be using Night Slash (it's way better on the normal set). So really in the 4th slot, HP Grass is really only competing against Pursuit, and if you're not running any Special attackers (because the real beauty of Pursuit is in trapping Chansey), then there's no reason to -not- run Hidden Power Grass, you're not really losing anything by doing so.
RE: Pursuit vs HP Grass
Another situation is Mismagius or any sub sweeper. Pursuit breaks subs w/o Recoil, Mismagius's subs easily stand up to a HP Grass and it's immune to Superpower, and sub prevents SP. Sub Raikou can also play around Sucker Punch, causing him to use BB and wasting recoil breaking subs, not to mention EITHER of those can use T-bolt on the predicted BB and OHKO Krow, so there's mind games involved (though they are not new). It also can't trap Zam or Espeon, other frail special sweepers, that can play around Sucker Punch as well.
Sucker Punch is a good move, but because it's practically Honchkrow's signature, it has no surprise value and can easily be played around. Having a reliable STAB attack that doesn't involve you commiting suicide is a good thing.
Night Slash allows you to have a reliable way of breaking slightly bulkier subs (like Subseed Venusaur or something) and getting rid of Uxie, Mespirit, and Slowbro without wasting health on recoil.
Another situation is Mismagius or any sub sweeper. Pursuit breaks subs w/o Recoil, Mismagius's subs easily stand up to a HP Grass and it's immune to Superpower, and sub prevents SP. Sub Raikou can also play around Sucker Punch, causing him to use BB and wasting recoil breaking subs, not to mention EITHER of those can use T-bolt on the predicted BB and OHKO Krow, so there's mind games involved (though they are not new). It also can't trap Zam or Espeon, other frail special sweepers, that can play around Sucker Punch as well.
Sucker Punch is a good move, but because it's practically Honchkrow's signature, it has no surprise value and can easily be played around. Having a reliable STAB attack that doesn't involve you commiting suicide is a good thing.
Night Slash allows you to have a reliable way of breaking slightly bulkier subs (like Subseed Venusaur or something) and getting rid of Uxie, Mespirit, and Slowbro without wasting health on recoil.
Salamence @ Life Orb
16 Atk / 240 SpAtk / 252 Spe
Naive (+Spe, -SpD)
-Draco Meteor
-Flamethrower
-Brick Break
-Roost
You don't need to be able to sweep in order to be an excellent offensive threat, as shown above. This can't sweep, as its only stab move can't be used repeatedly, and often forces it to switch out + sr weakness. But I'd hardly say using this set is ill-advised or even gimmicky.
Besides, I'd argue that Sucker Punch is a fairly reliable attack, as PP stalling is risky and requires top-notch prediction.
You skipped my next post.
First, you assume SR, and I have already addressed the SR situation above... You have to assume that for you to have SR up your honchkrow counter has to be in 2hko range, and easily susceptible to a superpower/ hp grass on the switch since its presence in the match will be known.
D2M, honchkrow is too good for UU. Your examples are completely based on you predicting WELL all of the time and your opponents predicting BADLY all of the time. When you have to make elaborate, and frankly predictable, strategies based on multiple switches that require the opponent to predict horribly just to ko their pokemon, then you are showing the extent to which this pokemon forces an opponent into a corner "with little effort." A pokemon doesn't have to beat every single pokemon in the entire tier to be broken, and in all actuality it would be very hard for a pokemon to do that. Honchkrow has no real drawback to its use and easily beats it "counters" that lack recovery with little effort. Its not so much a sweeper like you seem to think that it is, but an offensive support pokemon that makes it substantially easier for other offensive pokemon to sweep.
Honchkrow is an amazing pokemon, but im hesitant to label him as broken. I'm a little shaky on if he fits the criteria for a Support BL pokemon, because although he is an amazing wall breaker, im not convinced that he can wreck a team to the point where other pokemon can sweep with ease.
The point of the BL argument is he requires little or no prediction. I think you just proved my point.
Easily, Honchkrow is one of the most easiest Pokemon to use in the UU tier. Countless times, I just couldn't wait on bringing it in because I'm pretty sure I can get a kill most of the time. Without a doubt, the addition of Brave Bird made it even more broken, allowing it to punch holes on its usual counters: Milotic, Donphan, and Weezing for 2HKO. Sucker Punch is such a staple on any set as it threatens any frail Pokemon trying to revenge kill it. Imo, the only way to effectively beat it if the opponent is faster is to use Substitute. Superpower rounds off the coverage, smashing Rock- and Steel-types. With that being said, Honchkrow is an absolute threat with only 3 moves, leaving the final slot for many options.
The debate with Pursuit / Hidden Power Grass / Roost totally depends on what you really feel like hitting. Imo, Roost is probably the most broken out of all the options, allowing it to stay in the match the entire team after killing one or two Pokemon. I had so many players quit on me once I Roosted all the hits they dished at me. I wouldn't blame them, Roost is really a cheap move on Honchkrow as it takes advantage of its natural ability to force switch-outs, giving it time to Roost. Pursuit and Hidden Power Grass is pretty much a given. Pursuit lets you play games with SubMissy and SubRotom, but staying in to play games with them is really a bad idea, as Honchkrow could faint from Thunderbolt. Hidden Power Grass seems like the most reasonable choice for Honchkrow to use just for bypassing Rhyperior (the best counter imo currently). Although it would need to sacrfice some EVs to get the clean OHKO (im pretty sure). Theres my 2 cents.
The debate with Pursuit / Hidden Power Grass / Roost totally depends on what you really feel like hitting. Imo, Roost is probably the most broken out of all the options, allowing it to stay in the match the entire team after killing one or two Pokemon. I had so many players quit on me once I Roosted all the hits they dished at me. I wouldn't blame them, Roost is really a cheap move on Honchkrow as it takes advantage of its natural ability to force switch-outs, giving it time to Roost. Pursuit and Hidden Power Grass is pretty much a given. Pursuit lets you play games with SubMissy and SubRotom, but staying in to play games with them is really a bad idea, as Honchkrow could faint from Thunderbolt. Hidden Power Grass seems like the most reasonable choice for Honchkrow to use just for bypassing Rhyperior (the best counter imo currently). Although it would need to sacrfice some EVs to get the clean OHKO (im pretty sure). Theres my 2 cents.
Wow, I was just about to ask that question!
It doesn't work for me though. Its still not bulky enough to switch in, and it really can't really find time to roost. I would rather just fire off two brave birds, then roost and shoot off one. Honch is just too slow (and weak to SR) to make use of this set, even with SP.
An example:
he switches into a weak attack and looses around 50% from that and SR, and roosts while the opponent switches into an electric type, or something that can hurt honch. You can easily predict the sucker punch (and say switcheroo with manetric) and then win a prediction war later.
I would prefer a set with night slash, superpower, brave bird and something else, that could just live fast, and hit hard.
Thats just my opinion.
EDIT: This set looks good on paper, but really doesn't live up to its high expectations IRL.
Given how preposterous Leech Seed Machop is, I doubt highly that the story is true.
It's a pretty bleak future for Honchkrow, but at least on the bright side Brave Bird and Drill Peck are incompatable with Swords Dance.
Why? What would be wrong with Skarmory passing the 2-3 moves on when breeding with a female Murkrow/Honchkrow? Unless it doesn't count as an Egg move change, I can't tell from the vague description provided. You're probably right anyways.
EDIT: anyway, if this is true, I have to wonder how much use it would get on 'Krow, being a weaker, slower, SR weak version of Absol. The one big advantage Honchkrow has offensively, strong STAB Flying, will not be available alongside it, so that just leaves the defensive type advantage. Though it would make 'Krow a bit more versatile and unpredictable, which could push it over the edge if it isn't already. I obviously think it is over the edge anyway...
It's not an egg move change, it's just a special move that you get on a Murkrow from the Pokewalker. Think of it like an NYPC / XD Pokemon that gets a special move.
I wouldn't use Swords Dance - Honchkrow is an outstanding wall-breaker and a subpar sweeper. Swords Dance does nothing to change that.
That said, I'd rather we didn't waste any more time discussing Swords Dance Honchkrow (or Leech Seed Machamp) until we get some confirmation. It wouldn't be the first time Serebii has sent us down the wrong path and these additions seem very unlikely.
That said, I'd rather we didn't waste any more time discussing Swords Dance Honchkrow (or Leech Seed Machamp) until we get some confirmation. It wouldn't be the first time Serebii has sent us down the wrong path and these additions seem very unlikely.