Honchkrow - The Don

[LonelyNess]

<LonelyNess> reachzero, are you going to post a honchkrow thread, because if not in the next 1-2 hours, I will do it
<LonelyNess> (it needs to be done)
<reachzero> oh
<reachzero> go ahead
<reachzero> I don't think I'm going to get to it any time soon
<LonelyNess> ok
<LonelyNess> I'll have one up by the end of the night then
<reachzero> excellent

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So this is going to be the official discussion thread of Honchkrow, since the mammoth thread is getting too big to house discussions of individual Pokemon.

Posts that you might want to read first.

Speaking of Honchkrow, I completely underestimated how big an addition Brave Bird is to Honchkrow's repertoire. Honchkrow OHKOs so many Pokemon now that it's pretty amazing, and particularly taking down a lot of the Pokemon that would otherwise give Gallade problems. Granted, Rhyperior does make a big difference in facing Honchkrow, since it is a reliable switchin, but Honchkrow is still very, very strong. I voted Honchkrow UU the first time it came up, since I have perceived it as sortof the "Salamence of UU", but I'm really starting to thing now that with Brave Bird it's just a little too much to handle, even as relatively slow as it is.

One last thought....."playing defensively" seems to be harder than ever. I'm not talking so much about full stall as trying to play the "balanced" style that UU has seemed to evolve into in the last few months. Milotic is still great and Spiritomb is really useful right now, but they need to account for so many different threats that they can get really badly hurt early in the game, leaving another threat clear to sweep. This is especially true with Honchkrow around to open holes up for Gallade, etc

Also imo Honchkrow is still showing the offensive characteristic, There just isn't anything that stops it well enough. Raikou is definitely showing a certain bl'ness to me. Rhyperior has been really underwhelming so far both in use and in playing against it. I'm not too sure on Gallade and some of the others yet.

I actually believe that Honchkrow is broken in much the same way (though not exactly the same) that Gallade is, i.e. the ability to effortlessly punch holes, but in the general case of your specific example. I have found that against the vast majority of teams, it is extremely easy for Honchkrow to inflict at least the equivalent of 100% damage to the opponent's team, and therefore punch a major hole in it. With 2-3 varied sweepers complementing Honchkrow, its effect will most often allow at least one of those sweepers to have a much easier time sweeping up. None of the surrounding sweepers are broken by themselves, but Honchkrow in fact is because of the effotless support it provides them.

I personally believe that the Support Characteristic should be split into two; Offensive Support and Defensive / Utility Support, and I would definitely nominate Honchkrow under the former.

With Honchkrow, it offensively supports sweepers in general. In any given battle, Honchkrow is probably not choosing its targets beforehand, but the general result is that something is punched into and heavily damaged, often something that at least one sweeper can exploit. It is the generality of its effect that I believe distinguishes it from the case of Raikou's 'supportability', which is arguably much less concrete from battle to battle.

Also, Arcanine counters honchkrow just fine, well as close as it comes I guess...

Another problem with Honchkrow that hasn't been mentioned recently is this. Even if you do manage to play around it successfully, perhaps by making sure it has a difficult time coming in, or by making some clever switches to get into a favorable position with little damage inflicted, or whatever, ultimately the hax factor will screw you over more often than with any other similarly threatening Pokemon. Super Luck isn't quite as ridiculous now as it was when glitched, but 1 in 8 (for every move!) is still a fairly high probability for such a gamebreaking side-effect, and has made a huge difference in many of my matches.

Even bulky Arcanine, arguably the safest Honchkrow check populating UU right now (sorry, but Rhyperior is lol) can be screwed over quite often by this. It has happened with my Honchkrow once; Arcanine comes in on SR at full health and then Brave Bird crits for the OHKO. Another time, a near full health Steelix is one-on-one against my low health Honchkrow that can't afford to switch out, then BAM, Superpower crits and OHKOs. Don't get me started on how many times I have managed to get an extra KO on Milotic or other similar bulky Pokemon with recovery just trying to stall out my final recoil reserves.

Now I am certainly not saying that this should be a major factor for making Honchkrow a suspect, and you could rightly claim that critical hits are a part of the game. But in the case of Honchkrow, these incidents occur far more often, to the point where I would consider it to be a 'significant hax factor'. Much like the case with Garchomp and Sand Veil, it is far from the main reason for it being overpowering, but rather the icing on the cake that makes dealing with it even less certain and even more unfair.

Honestly, Honchkrow rarely uses Super Luck to start with nowadays, and only LeadKrow has Night Slash.

Everyone wants Insomnia for Venusaur.

Honchkrow really isn't that threatening, IMO.

Ok, that's all of the relevent posts about Honchkrow I could find... and is that really it? The "Honchkrow isn't BL" side is rather paltry, and hopefully this thread will be able to remedy that.

-----------------------------------------

Anyway, I believe that the overwhelmingly negative response to Honchkrow lately is just solidifying that the close vote may have been a bit wrong (kind of like Crobat). I'd like to know if anyone has an argument against Honchkrow being BL, because the above arguments for it are pretty convincing.

 

[Heysup]

While I'm definitely a "Honchkrow for BL" person, I do really think that people overestimate its ability to switch into things.

For Example:

Dear Users,

Please continue to use Power Whip / Earthquake Venusaur so that all of my Flying-type Pokemon like Honchkrow and Moltres can come in for absolutely free and devestate your teams.

Sincerely, LonelyNess

A max attack Adamant Venusaur, without Life Orb, can 2HKO Honchkrow 87% of the time:

289 Atk vs 140 Def & 341 HP (120 Base Power): 133 - 157 (39.00% - 46.04%)

An LO Jolly Venusaur, with Life Orb, and 2HKO Honchkrow 100% of the time:

263 Atk vs 140 Def & 341 HP (120 Base Power): 157 - 186 (46.04% - 54.55%)

While it holds true that Honchkrow CAN come in on the occasional Sleep Powder and EQ, Venusaur still easily gets rid of Honchkrow.

 

[LonelyNess]

When you're switching Honchrow into Venusaur, it's generally from something that Venusaur can not afford to use Power Whip against (either for the threat of the miss against Raikou, or for the lack of NVE damage against something like Toxicroak), that and the willy nilly use of the conceived "safe" option, Sleep Powder, means that more often than not, Honchkrow has a free switch-in to Venusaur. I mean obviously you're not going to switch in when the threat of Power Whip is imminent, but I thought that kind of went without saying.

 

[A.P.]

While Honchkrow is probably one of the most threatening Pokemon in UU, and can single-handedly rape teams, or shatter them so thoroughly that something else picks up the pieces and finishes the rape off, I'm going to say that it's not BL.

A lot more things can take hits in UU than given credit for, and Sucker Punch mindgames wear down the user a lot. And many things can easily revenge Honchkrow. I know, this isn't a suitable argument, but revenging in this case can equate Sucker Punch switch-ins.

It's very tough, but not BL material.

 

[BurtonEarny]

NOTE: I worded the arcanine comment as though I feel arcanine is a good enough answer to keep honchkrow uu... I didn't mean it that way at all. I was responding to a comment that said you needed a rhyperior to prevent losing multiple pokes to honch.

I think honchkrow was broken before... I think he is better now. I'm totally in the "he is BL" boat. Arcanine or luxray(lol) is pretty much required on a stall team simply because of its presence (and gallade as well). Smart switching just isn't enough when it can pursuit kill specific pokemon that HAVE to switch to completely destroy an opponents counter to a sweeper. On top of that he is incredibly hard to revenge kill thanks to resistance to pursuit and his many immunities give him plenty of chances to come in again later even counting SR damage. He fills the support AND offensive characteristics at the same time imo. Scarf set is a monster, as is LO... broken broken broken.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I kind of look at Honchkrow as the Salamence of UU. It's really really strong, has no real counters, but it has the same SR-weak/LO chip/common weakness problems that Mence has, so I don't think it's strong enough to be BL.
My team deal with Honchkrow by making it impossible for it to switch into anything without it dying. But I can definitely see how more balanced teams, who may have a few walls or sleepers, can easily be wrecked by it.

 

[BurtonEarny]

I kind of look at Honchkrow as the Salamence of UU. It's really really strong, has no real counters, but it has the same SR-weak/LO chip/common weakness problems that Mence has, so I don't think it's strong enough to be BL.
My team deal with Honchkrow by making it impossible for it to switch into anything without it dying. But I can definitely see how more balanced teams, who may have a few walls or sleepers, can easily be wrecked by it.

salamence doesn't learn pursuit...

 

[panamaxis]

anyone else besides me tried running hp evs and roost? LO Brave Bird Super Power Sucker Punch Roost, outspeeds milo rest in hp, max attack. I know it's still kinda frail but 100 base hp isn't that bad, and honchkrow does force switches after all (roost vs pursuit, would you rather hurt one thing on the switch or regain health and start another rampage...debatable imo.)

 

[Sock Monster]

A well played Honchcrow devastates teams. As long as Honchcrow manages to get into anything, it is going to hit something incredibly hard...

It is also quite easy to support Honchcrow. Just get rid of Rocks or prevent them from being set up and Honchcrow has 10 switches in and 10 attacks if played well.

Yeah, it doesn't have many opportunities to switch into attacks and is hampered by a weakness to the ever common Steath Rock but come on?
Look at its movepool, it is virtually unresisted. Nothing can trap Honchcrow, it can just continually switch in and out and continue to wreck teams.

Not to mention that Honchcrow also has great Special Attacking capabilities and is able to run a mixed set which could even cause more trouble.

I'd like to know if there are any dedicated counters to Honchcrow besides uh Arcanine which is Stealth Rock weak and takes lots of damage on the switch in...

Is the only way to defeat Honchcrow by Priority or by continually wearing it down?

Is there a definite full stop to a Honchcrow?

 

[whistle]

yeah panamaxis I put in enough speed to hit 215 or 216 speed (I forget which) and the rest in Def because its HP is already pretty high and that helps him take random physical hits (which Honchkrow seems to attract more than special hits)

 

[XenoIncognito]

Rhyperior is a pretty good counter. Even if Honchkrow stays in, LO 252 Adamant Superpower is only 40-46% on the first hit on the defensive (244/184 Impish) spread, while Rhyperior threatens with STAB Stone Edge. Consecutive Superpowers would be foolish as it would fail to even 3HKO at that point.

The only problem is that it leaves you wide open for Milotic/Slowbro to switch in, but you can at least set up a free Stealth Rock to annoy future Honchkrow switch-ins.

 

[Erazor]

Honchkrow is a monster. You know what MixMence does to Stall in OU? That's what Honchkrow does, except that it just uses Physical attacks.

The addition of Brave Bird really seals it for me. At least before HGSS, Milotic and Spiritomb could fairly reliably counter it. Now, they both fall to Brave Bird. Registeel can comfortably take a Brave Bird, but falls to the follow-up Superpower.

Honchkrow qualifies more under the Support Characteristic. "No problem, I can use Steelix to beat Honchkrow!" Well, a full health Steelix is going to take >80% damage to beat Honchkrow. And then another sweeper can capitalize. Not to mention that Steelix isn't going to be at full health, ever. If you have SR and one layer of Spikes, max HP/min Def Impish Steelix is going to be 2HKOed nearly all the time.

And once you get someone in safely, chances are it takes a lot from Sucker Punch. So even your revenge killer gets badly dented.

Rhyperior can't stop Honchkrow if it carries HP Grass. I know for a fact that Lemmiwinks does, and it's an absolute beast.

 

[Lee]

Honchkrow is the only Pokemon I've came across thus far who I would vote to go to BL. He's just too easy to use and far too destructive - there's been a few occassions where I've felt obliged to apologise to my opponent for abusing Honchkrow.

I've heard a few people arguing that it's too slow but to be entirely frank - if you find it too slow then you're probably using it wrong. It isn't supposed to sweep, it's a wallbreaker and its speed is sufficient for that purpose.

Brave Bird definitely pushed it over the edge...all the old counters like Milotic, Weezing and Donphan are suffering easy 2HKOs which forces the opponent to go to their Rock or Steel type who will no doubt be taking colossal damage from Superpower. In my opinion, this puts him a long way towards meeting the Support Characteristic as well as the obvious Offensive one.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

With Honchkrow around it's just far too easy to bank on a Pokemon who has trouble with the likes of Registeel or Steelix (think Mismagius, Raikou etc) and simply use Honchkrow to punch a huge hole in them. You don't need to use a fancy lure set...you don't even need to predict or outplay the opponent.

anyone else besides me tried running hp evs and roost? LO Brave Bird Super Power Sucker Punch Roost

I haven't tried the HP EVs but I'm swearing by Roost atm. So many teams attempt to beat him by switching around and taking advantage of BB+LO recoil and Superpowers negative effects that you're often being presented with free turns to just Roost in their face. Sucker Punch can also buy you free turns.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

While I'm definitely a "Honchkrow for BL" person, I do really think that people overestimate its ability to switch into things.

For Example:



A max attack Adamant Venusaur, without Life Orb, can 2HKO Honchkrow 87% of the time:

289 Atk vs 140 Def & 341 HP (120 Base Power): 133 - 157 (39.00% - 46.04%)

An LO Jolly Venusaur, with Life Orb, and 2HKO Honchkrow 100% of the time:

263 Atk vs 140 Def & 341 HP (120 Base Power): 157 - 186 (46.04% - 54.55%)

While it holds true that Honchkrow CAN come in on the occasional Sleep Powder and EQ, Venusaur still easily gets rid of Honchkrow.

If you're referring to the max attack and speed variant that you use, the situation really isn't quite as simple as you're claiming:

383 Attack LO Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 211-250 HP (69.87 - 82.78%)

If Venusaur has taken any previous residual damage from SR or Spikes, which I'm sure you of all people would agree is reasonable, then Venusaur stands a good chance of having to sacrifice itself to take out Honchkrow, if not being OHKO'd outright after SR/Spikes + one 10% recoil. You can recover first or switch, but the point is it is still a mindgame that Venusaur cannot just mindlessly win.

Anyway, I believe that the overwhelmingly negative response to Honchkrow lately is just solidifying that the close vote may have been a bit wrong (kind of like Crobat).

A kinda misleading statement really. The last Honchkrow vote was prior to HG/SS and therefore before it got Brave Bird. I didn't think it was broken back then, but Brave Bird really has made all the difference. The key factor IMO is that Honchkrow doesn't have anywhere near the same movepool or prediction difficulties that it had before. Night Slash was a serious consideration before not just for the greater crit chance against bulky stuff that it couldn't 2HKO, but also to stop bulky Psychics like Slowbro, that wouldn't necessarily have to straight-up attack to beat you, from walling you. All of a sudden with Brave Bird, almost every bulky threat that couldn't be 2HKO'd before (Milotic, Slowbro, Weezing, Donphan etc) could be 2HKO'd, all in one move, and suddenly Honchkrow's decision-making became almost brainless.

Before, if I wasn't obviously going to Pursuit something or Sucker Punching to revenge-kill, prediction was often key to make sure you got Honchkrow to pull its weight as often as possible. Much less so now. In fact, I can't remember the last time I sent Honchkrow out early-game in an advantageous position and didn't just click Brave Bird instantly without pausing for thought. It just works (kinda like Staraptor really). The fact is, that one move is all it needs to completely eliminate the previous threat of numerous bulky switch-ins and really force the opponent to take risks and reveal his Superpower / HP Grass weak. Oftentimes Honchkrow can outrun and KO the incoming resist anyway, Registeel being a good example (Drill Peck + Superpower did not reliably do this). Brave Bird + Superpower + Sucker Punch is all that is truly essential for Honchkrow offensively now; the final slot (Pursuit, Roost, HP Grass) is more of an added luxury than anything, and many Pokemon would kill for that.

That is all I have to add for now, as the framework of my argument is already in the OP. If anyone wants to challenge the validity of any of my points, or has any counter-arguments to add, I will be ready and willing to respond.

EDIT:

anyone else besides me tried running hp evs and roost?

If not maxing your speed, I am more of an advocate of putting the EVs into the defenses where it makes more of a difference given the low bases. I used to always run significant special defense to take on Espeons and Missys with greater ease (Shaymin too back in the day), but Defense EVs are viable too if you want to, say, switch in to physical Venusaur with added assurance.

 

[mohaji]

With HG/SS Honchkrow get a new move which seems to be good, the move is Tailwind. With this move the speed of Honchkrow doubles for 3 rounds, maybe with the release of Shoddy Battle 2 this would be helpful (in Double Battles).

What do you think about Honchkrow with Tailwind?

Let me know if there is a Tailwind set!

 

[d2m]

I'm on the fence about Honchkrow. Just from looks, demeanor, and ingame stuff he's by far my favorite poke this generation, and I've used him extensively in UU play (and ubers play, but that's another story). The Brave Bird addition never caused any of my teams problems, but I could see how it would be tough for other teams to handle.

A list of people who can take hits from Honchkrow and threaten back:

Omastar - most common counter in this metagame it seems. Isn't 2HKO'd, has HP Rock or Ancientpower to deal with krow.

Regirock - Fallen out of favor thanks to Gallade it seems. Isn't 2HKO'd, threatens with stone edge/rock slide. Ironically, I've found paraflinch Regirock to be rather devastating to my teams.

Rhyperior - Defensive Rhyperior is great, especially at checking Honchkrow and setting up rocks. Threatens with SE or Rock Slide again.

Steelix - with some defensive investment (to actual defense, which is rare these days) he can be never 2HKO'd by Honchkrow even after entry hazards + lefties. Threatens with SE or Gyro Ball, or simply Roar to phaze him into taking 25% more from rocks.

Weezing - Survives and burns, threatens with t-bolt. The problem is that Weezing can easily be setup bait for Lum Berry or fire-type physical sweepers.

Let's look at the counters he lost when he got brave bird:

Spiritomb
Milotic
Torterra
Tangrowth

The latter 2 were still hit hard by Drill Peck but could force it out, Milotic was still in trouble if he was Adamant and/or got a crit Night Slash. Spiritomb was the only real counter and Crotomb could set up and others could burn. So really, not much has changed other than his ability to turn a few 2HKOs into OHKOs on stuff he'd already kill anyway.

Things that I've found work to kill him:

Alakazam lead- Honchkrow bait at it's finest. OHKOs with Counter or can Encore Sucker Punch (SP goes first, so if you think he'll do it use Encore) then get a free switch and/or setup to whatever you want.

Stealth Rock- Set it up ASAP and Krow will have a hard time getting more than one kill, if that.

Prediction - Are you faster than Honchkrow? He will use Sucker Punch, use the turn to set up or switch. Is he faster than you or are you at very low HP? He's gonna hit you with Pursuit, stay in and do a bit of damage to him so it 2HKOs instead of OHKOs. Did he just switch him in on a random wall or grass type? Here comes Brave Bird, switch to a rock or steel type to take the hit. I don't know if it's just the pokemon or all the people I faced, but Honchkrow, like Salamence, is utterly predictable and thus easily counterable if you know what you're doing.

Honestly, with 71 Base speed being very middling for the tier, he lacks the speed to "sweep with little effort". His massive attack and access to 2 120 BP physical moves makes him a great wallbreaker, but a very predictable one, I find that with the very restrictive movesets he requires to BE a wallbreaker (Sucker Punch, Superpower and Brave Bird are mandatory, meaning he has 1 Grab Bag move max), he's not too hard to play around.

 

[Heysup]

A list of people who can take hits from Honchkrow and threaten back:

Omastar - most common counter in this metagame it seems. Isn't 2HKO'd, has HP Rock or Ancientpower to deal with krow.

Before or after it's hit by HP Grass?

Rhyperior - Defensive Rhyperior is great, especially at checking Honchkrow and setting up rocks. Threatens with SE or Rock Slide again.

Before or after it's hit by HP Grass?

Steelix - with some defensive investment (to actual defense, which is rare these days) he can be never 2HKO'd by Honchkrow even after entry hazards + lefties. Threatens with SE or Gyro Ball, or simply Roar to phaze him into taking 25% more from rocks.

Great check, and maybe counter, but it's only temporary.

Weezing - Survives and burns, threatens with t-bolt. The problem is that Weezing can easily be setup bait for Lum Berry or fire-type physical sweepers.

Regirock - Fallen out of favor thanks to Gallade it seems. Isn't 2HKO'd, threatens with stone edge/rock slide. Ironically, I've found paraflinch Regirock to be rather devastating to my teams.

That's the big problem with the metagame. So many counters for top threats are liabilities because other Pokemon make them useless / use them as set up bait.

 

[LonelyNess]

Just popping in to say that Weezing is in no way a viable counter to Honchkrow, seeing as how Brave Bird 2HKOs EASILY, without even mentioning Stealth Rock.

 

[fmsYEAH]

Does Honchkrow really want to put HP Grass over Pursuit? I find Pursuit is one of the best reasons to even put Honchkrow on your team, and that's the only move you can really give up to run HP Grass.

 

[d2m]

Before or after it's hit by HP Grass?


Before or after it's hit by HP Grass?


Great check, and maybe counter, but it's only temporary.




That's the big problem with the metagame. So many counters for top threats are liabilities because other Pokemon make them useless / use them as set up bait.

If Honchkrow is packing HP Grass, then it's not running the standard set we're talking about. It's a gimmick at best as he loses access to a reliable STAB, Pursuit, or one of the 3 essential sweeping moves, leaving him open to new counters/checks and loses the ability to beat several pokes 1 on 1.

The Weezing comment was based on someone I played, he may have been running Mixkrow or HP EVs, but upon doing the calcs, Max attack LO will 2HKO with BB, so never mind.

 

[Heysup]

The standard set is

Honchkrow @ Life Orb
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpA
Adamant / Naughty
Insomnia
-Brave Bird
-Superpower
-Sucker Punch
-Hidden Power Grass

Who doesn't use Hidden Power Grass? It's just silly to not use it.

I wish we had valid stats right now to look at.....but whatever.

 

[d2m]

The standard set is

Honchkrow @ Life Orb
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpA
Adamant / Naughty
Insomnia
-Brave Bird
-Superpower
-Sucker Punch
-Hidden Power Grass

Who doesn't use Hidden Power Grass? It's just silly to not use it.

I wish we had valid stats right now to look at.....but whatever.

You know what's funny? Blaziken can run the same set with Fire Blast or Flare Blitz over Sucker Punch :P

Seriously, though, with HP Grass, you have no reliable attack. Sucker Punch requires an attack, Brave Bird has massive recoil, Superpower drops your atk and def, and HP Grass is a gimmick used for 2 specific counters. It is literally impossible to sweep in any sense of the word. It's not using him to his full potential, and missing out on Pursuit or Night Slash is extremely ill-advised.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Who doesn't use Hidden Power Grass? It's just silly to not use it.

To be fair, Roost and Pursuit can be just as useful in that final slot, and many people do use them.

But HP Grass is most definitely NOT a gimmick move on Honchkrow. It is the only good move for that slot that actually contributes to its wallbreaking and hole-punching ability. Pursuit and Roost can be good for trap-killing and extra longevity respectively, but if your main objective is to beat up as much of the opponent's team as possible, HP Grass is definitely the way to go. I use it almost all the time, as without it you can't reliably take out Pokemon such as Omastar and Rhyperior, making it less reliable at offensively supporting sweepers like Raikou and Arcanine.

 

[Witnessed]

Another thing about Honchkrow is that it is extremely hard to revenge kill thanks to Sucker Punch. In my opinion it's broken as hell with Brave Bird in it's fantastic movepool (which was great beforehand).

 

[Heysup]

To be fair, Roost and Pursuit can be just as useful in that final slot, and many people do use them.

But HP Grass is most definitely NOT a gimmick move on Honchkrow. It is the only good move for that slot that actually contributes to its wallbreaking and hole-punching ability. Pursuit and Roost can be good for trap-killing and extra longevity respectively, but if your main objective is to beat up as much of the opponent's team as possible, HP Grass is definitely the way to go. I use it almost all the time, as without it you can't reliably take out Pokemon such as Omastar and Rhyperior, making it less reliable at offensively supporting sweepers like Raikou and Arcanine.

Yea, that's true, but I'd definitely say Hidden Power Grass is more common / useful than the other two.