Announcement Gen 9 S/V National Dex UU Metagame Discussion

[Velcroc]

A foolish man fears Tornadus-Therian. A wise man invites it to his house.

+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 241-285 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 415-489 (58.1 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 360-424 (50.4 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[TBIC106]

Alright, guess we're doing this



Fuck this mon, let's talk counters.

First, we establish a set. Tornadus-T can run a bajillion different sets, from support to AV to offensive pivot. But the most common set is almost undoubtedly going to be its Nasty Plot variant, as shown below. This will be the one we're basing calcs off of, as it's easily the most offensively threatening of all the potential sets Torn can run. Everything said will also be assuming you switch in on a nasty plot from predicting the switch, so calcs will be at +2

Nasty Plot

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Flyinium-Z
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Bleakwind Storm / Hurricane
- Heat Wave / Focus Blast
- Focus Blast / U-Turn / Knock Off / Superpower / Taunt

No. 1 -

We nearly lost this as well, which would've been disastrous in the face of such a monster threat dropping right before NDPL (I agree with Runo, fuck OU why now of all times?). Unfortunately, we have issues here. The only way Slowking Galar can stand up to offensive Torn at +2 is with an Assault Vest, so you're immediately locked out of some of its great utility in chilly reception and toxic spikes. Okay, that's not terrible at least. Second, Glowking can only just about do over 50% to offensive with ice beam. Alright, this is still fine, at least it lives two hurricanes at +2 so it can basically sacrifice itself for a 1-1 trade. Thirdly, knock variants not only remove assault vest but also put it in range of +2 hurricane along with rocks chip. ....Now we have a problem. Torn now either nukes with hurricane or switches out, then uses its plethora of opportunities to come in on various threats it beats, clicks nasty plot and beats you next time around. Have fun!

So not a full counter, though at least it's a check. But this is before you consider pursuit support, which can very easily remove Glowking from the equation.

No. 2 -

Hey another reason for this mon to be on every team. But, as I'm going to be saying a lot in this post I think, we got yet more issues. Issue 1, basically every torn will be running heat wave. This is fine on its own, you live a +2 heat wave, hit a leech seed, click protect, you live a second +2 heat wave just barely thanks to leech seed and leftovers and click heavy slam, doing just barely enough for a kill. Issue 2, your counterplay is so linear and forced that torn clicks nasty plot on the turn 2 protect and now you die to the second heat wave. It's a prediction, but not a hard one by any stretch.

Not a counter, let's keep moving

No. 3 -

No preamble here, the issue is obvious. Focus blast just OHKOs even specially defensive variants. Wonderful. Obviously having to rely on focus miss sucks, but it's not a stretch to say that this means standard defensive TTar is out. No, what I'm talking about is Assault Vest or Chople Berry TTar. Yes, I am that desperate for a counter. Rock blast only needs a little chip for an OHKO, or stone edge just nukes it out of the sky, so take your pick of rock STAB.

Aaaand it's u-turn and now you've come in, taken chip, and don't beat it any more.

...

Next!

No. 4 -

Now we're maybe onto something, although we're scraping the barrel a little due to rotom's less than favourable match up into our more common rockers. Rotom heat is able to survive repeated hits from +2 hurricane and heat wave, while only barely being 2HKOed by focus miss, which is better than an OHKO at least? Gives you a chance to do something, and it's less of a stretch to assume that one of two will miss. You can also take advantage of torn's regenerator ability yourself with pain split, leaving the door open for a pain split + wisp/defog + overheat + volt switch/discharge set. The big issue here is that you're dealing with heavy four move slot syndrome, and the second is that a knock torn is very easily able to wear down rotom by forcing it in, removing its boots, then forcing it in later under rocks from the likes of hippowdon and ttar coming in on the overheat aimed at torn. If you're wisp, you're not defog, or if you're wisp and defog you aren't pain split. Any and all of these combinations lose in one way or another, either by being unable to beat many of our common rockers or by the lack of recovery being unable to withstand repeated assaults. But it's better than what we've been through so far at least.

No. 5 -

.....Okay I know I said I was desperate, but dear god. Torn has no immediate way through Diancie, and flyinium-Z sets don't appreciate rocks massively limiting its regenerator. But you have to rely on passive recovery from leftovers, which can be removed by knock variants, massive vulnerability to the good steels in the tier like Aegislash, Steela and Treads, and such pitiful power that you're barely going to be able to do anything to the rest of the tier. But it beats Torn. So that's something I guess.

Honorable mention to calm mind Blissey as well, being used over chansey since it's less knock weak, which technically wins? But is stall only, hates repeated assaults, can be pursuit trapped, loses to taunt variants, and is now complete fodder for any ghost.

Thank you OU. Please ban this.

 

[J3stH0LLyy]

Hi! I made a forum account pretty much solely to participate in this tier, despite not being all that experienced, because it's genuinely very fun, and see a lot of potential in it now that Tera is gone. I'm new to forums in general! So go do try to go easy on me. That said...

This thing. What is it doing here.

So, I think we can all at the very least agree that Torn-T is a bit of a problem, right? There's very little that can 1v1 it, the things that can often need to be at full health to do so, and its movepool is ridiculously good, being able to run a large variety of sets that make reliably answering it nigh impossible. Access to Regenerator to let it switch out after taking damage with little to no cost to itself, pivot around endlessly, and come in on hazards all it wants, if it hasn't already cleared them.
As TBIC106 above me pointed out, all answers to this Pokemon either fail to do anything to one of the zillion sets it can run, or require prediction to answer it properly. Access to Heat Wave, Focus Blast, Bleakwind Storm, Nasty Plot, U-Turn, Grass Knot, Chilling Water and a myriad of support moves like Toxic, Tailwind and Defog, off of a blistering base 121 speed and more than respectable base 110 SpAtk, make finding ways to deal with this mon reliably nigh impossible.
Clefable and Thundurus cannot break through Assault Vest Tornadus. Non-AV variants do get one-shot by both, yes! But one, that's a gamble, and two, Clefable needs to be at full health to win the 1v1, otherwise it just eats a Bleakwind Storm or Hurricane and gets blasted to high hell. Sure they're not 100% accuracy, but they are still far from bad, and even then some Tornadus variants will be able to bulk out the hit without AV, getting the chance to go for a second finishing hit. Thundurus can't break through AV Tornadus, and sure, it can hit it again to kill it, but Tornadus can just switch out and oh! Look at that! It has all its health back!
I don't need to reiterate the top post on Tyranitar. On Mega Tyranitar, Focus Blast doesn't OHKO, sure- but then Tornadus can U-Turn and get out of there easily. Mega TTar needs to set up Dragon Dance in order to outspeed and OHKO Tornadus, and no sane person would let their Tornadus go in on a DD M-TTar. They'll just remove it with something else, and now you're one potential Torn-T answer short.
Excadrill under sand outspeeds, easily! And... Can't OHKO. Only does up to 64.2% with non-Band Iron Head. While Tornadus has a chance to OHKO with Focus Blast. You can OHKO with Corkscrew Crash! But then you're spending your one Z-move on Tornadus, rather than on another target that you might need it for.
Mega Aerodactyl is the only thing I can think of that can make this fucked up bird to be forced to switch out, and even then M-Aero has a lot of things that can tank a hit and answer it, even being able to withstand it after it uses that switch turn to set up. One example, and a pretty common one, is Mega Tyranitar, which can tank even a +1 hit from Mega Aerodactyl and OHKO it in return with Stone Edge. Other physical walls exist, such as Skarmory, and Keldeo can also tank a +1 hit and absolutely demolish it, so this is far from a reliable answer.

Those are a few examples of how hard to answer Torn-T is and how there's no reliable way to do so, and a few reasons why this mon is absolutely absurd in this tier. All this to say...

BURN IT BEFORE IT LAYS EGGS!!!!

(Please please quickban this mon <3)​

 

[Smashburn]

To preface what I'm about to say; in hindsight, I don't think that the result of the Tera suspect was beneficial for any party. We got nowhere with an unhealthy mechanic but were too extreme in wanting to ban Tera outright before exhausting other reasonable options; this does not include open sheets, I think most of us agree that was an asinine suggestion. Albeit, the Tera ban in UU goes against the way Smogon tiering policy works. If the rest of the tier follows suit after OU the same way RU follows after UU, then why did UU have the option to suspect and ban Tera? I agree that the original suspect test was handled poorly, but this was handled irrationally. I can't help but think it was premeditated by the community after we failed to ban Tera in OU. However, now that the DLC's have arrived, it's time to review another option: banning Tera Blast. If we can remove some of what makes Tera unhealthy to begin with, we might find a healthy balance for this generational mechanic. Additionally, if Tera is still unhealthy after banning Tera Blast, then we undoubtedly know whether it is healthy or unhealthy without debate.

I would like to know the community's thoughts about this suggestion. Could we make this work in OU?

 

[Runo]

If the rest of the tier follows suit after OU the same way RU follows after UU, then why did UU have the option to suspect and ban Tera?

If Drought is balanced in OU but broken in UU and RU, do we just let the lower tiers suffer? It was treated as an ordinary suspect because there was simply no precedent for a lower tier suspect on a generational mechanic. In fact why does it being a generational mechanic matter? If something is widely regarded as unhealthy then why does a tier need to jump through hoops to suspect it? SV UU could genuinely suspect test Tera for themselves if they truely wanted since as I said before, there's no true precedent.

but this was handled irrationally.

How so? Irrationally would imply that we're going against some rule or policy when there is no clear precedent to speak of. We were given the go ahead to suspect Tera by NatDex Leaders so we pulled the trigger. Go bother them because they ultimately had final say on whether UU could suspect Tera.

However, now that the DLC's have arrived, it's time to review another option: banning Tera Blast

Very few mons actually abused Tera Blast in NDUU so this wouldn't solve any of our problems with Tera which can be listed in the suspect thread (there was very little mention of Tera Blast in that thread in fact and the main issue was with the mechanic as a whole).

This entire post reads like a PR thread and should argueably be there instead to be honest. This has little to do with the actual current metagame and is more questioning the legitmacy of a community voted suspect test which I find very concerning.

 

[Runo]

In a more fun post, the new DLC dropped!

Here's a list of the more relevant movepool changes. It was taken from this thread so if you notice anything that should be included, let me know and I'll add it to this list. Same goes for this datamine as well

UU (The rich get richer.)
- Galarian Zapdos gets Knock Off
- Tyranitar gets knock off
- Mega Tyranitar gets Knock Off
- Mega Gardevoir gets Vaccum Wave
- Alolomola Gets flip turn
- Hisuan Goodra gets Knock Off
- Basculegion gets Flip Turn
- Ceruledge gets Poltergeist
- Pawmot also gets Knock Off

Unmon changes (Can they make it out of the hood?)
- Galarian Weezing finally gets Gunk Shot
- Gligar gets Spikes and Toxic Spikes
- Torterra gets High Horsepower, Headlong Rush (from PLA) but most importantly Shell Smash
- Infernape gets Raging Fury (from PLA), Drain Punch, Aura Sphere, Switcheroo, and Knock Off
- Emploeon finally replaces Defiant with Competitive, keeps Roost from PLA too, gainss Flip Turn, Vacuum Wave, Haze
- Chesanught gets Knock Off, High Horsepower
- Quaquaval gets Flip Turn and Knock Off
- Zarude gets Knock Off
- Lokix gets Knock Off too
- Revavroom gets High Horsepower
- Houndstone gets Poltergeist
- Cetitan gets Knock Off and High Horsepower
- Scream Tail gets Misty Explosion

cool starter questions:

What do we think about Knock Off Gapdos?
What do we think about Knock Off TTar?
How much is Mola's viability impacted by Flip Turn?
Is Ceruledge still good post-tera thanks to Poltergiest?
When will Mega Beedrill finally drop to RU?

 

[TBIC106]

Eh, screw it, I'm still awake might as well dump tired brain thoughts in and probably come to regret it later. Let's start with the good mons.

+knock off

Don't think this will increase its viability too much? It is a nice tool on both bulk up and choiced sets, giving a better way than blaze kick to hit Aegislash, but I don't think this will make it a tier breaker at all.

+knock off

Goodbye mega TTar, have fun in OU buddy! On a real, there's no way we're keeping mega TTar with this happening, though I don't think knock off would see much use on it anyway. Pursuit is just such a powerful move to drop for it, though if anything can compete it's knock off. Now banded TTar, on the other hand, is going to get a whole lot more use out of this than superpower. Similarly, specially defensive ttar now has a way to force progress despite its comparatively low offensive potential, giving it a breath of fresh air. I don't think this will end up broken, since most bulky teams have a way of dealing with TTar that doesn't mind absorbing a knock anyway, and offensive teams can still blow past it with fighting coverage, but it does get significantly better with the new addition.

+vacuum wave

....Okay I guess?

+flip turn

Now this is an interesting one. Alomomola getting access to flip turn means it becomes a slow pivot with regenerator and access to wish, allowing it to go from a stall-only passive blob to a momentum generating machine. Not only can you bring something in safely, you can bring it in safely then heal it back to full health with massive wishes, potentially restoring a hurt breaker or weakened wincon back to peak strength and forcing your opponent to deal with it all over again. As such, I can see this getting significantly more use on balanced builds now, and potentially even use on bulky offences that utilise an offensive defog/stealth rock to open up a slot in a defensive back bone.

+knock off
+flip turn
+knock off

These are all nice additions, but fail to address the issues with each mon. Goodra still doesn't really do much once it's on the field, Basculegion is still a breaker that doesn't break and Pawmot tries its best.

+poltergeist

Interesting, but ultimately I don't think this will impact too much, seeing as Ceruledge's standard set runs ghost STAB shadow sneak anyway. You can maybe afford to make that poltergeist on weak armor sets, but flash fire still needs shadow sneak to have any semblance of a chance at sweeping.

Now the shitters.

+nothing

Please, for the love of god ladder, let RU have this. It's not good.

+shell smash

I don't think this one is going to make too many waves here, seeing as steela and skarm are some of our premier defensive walls. I could see a shell smash rockium-Z set getting use, but it's going to be a nightmare getting it set up on anything that isn't screens, and it'll still fail to outspeed a lot of our faster mons at +2. RU can keep this one, assuming ladder agrees

+competitive +roost +flip turn

I'm gonna be experimenting with this one, at least once Alomomola rises to OU or I get bored with spamming it. With these changes Empoleon becomes a rocker that beats every defogger by default, has reliable recovery, can spam scald for burns and can generate momentum. This is going to see some use, whether or not it'll prove to be any good we'll have to see.

+knock off

High horsepower is nice, but the only thing Chesnaught is going to get use out of is knock. I doubt it'll see UU usage, but this at least gives it something it can do into skarm/steela. Something to bear in mind if bisharp eventually becomes broken ig.

+poltergeist

No.

Everything else on that list I don't think has what it takes to make usage, though no doubt ladder will find some whacky way to screw me over with them.

 

[Smashburn]

If Drought is balanced in OU but broken in UU and RU, do we just let the lower tiers suffer? It was treated as an ordinary suspect because there was simply no precedent for a lower tier suspect on a generational mechanic. In fact why does it being a generational mechanic matter? If something is widely regarded as unhealthy then why does a tier need to jump through hoops to suspect it? SV UU could genuinely suspect test Tera for themselves if they truely wanted since as I said before, there's no true precedent.


How so? Irrationally would imply that we're going against some rule or policy when there is no clear precedent to speak of. We were given the go ahead to suspect Tera by NatDex Leaders so we pulled the trigger. Go bother them because they ultimately had final say on whether UU could suspect Tera.


Very few mons actually abused Tera Blast in NDUU so this wouldn't solve any of our problems with Tera which can be listed in the suspect thread (there was very little mention of Tera Blast in that thread in fact and the main issue was with the mechanic as a whole).

This entire post reads like a PR thread and should argueably be there instead to be honest. This has little to do with the actual current metagame and is more questioning the legitmacy of a community voted suspect test which I find very concerning.

Generational mechanics are an interesting comparison to weather. Generational mechanics are universal across the entire platform and everything can access it, while weather is limited to a few mons and follows trickle-down. However, they both still affect the entire tier; if Drought is banned in UU, then the tiers below it follow suit. While there is no precedent regarding action on a generational mechanic outside of OU, there is precedent regarding weather and the trickle-down rule. During USUM RU found that, despite being broken in UU and NU, Drought was balanced in RU. As a result, Drought was unbanned in RU. However, Smogon has since declared this decision as an outdated precedent. "Despite the fact that Drought is banned from UU, Drought is not banned in RU. This is an outdated precedent that is not applicable in more modern generations." If in fact, it doesn't matter that Tera isn't a generational mechanic, then it should be following an example like this regardless. I think we need to take a more careful look at it. I'm not suggesting that the tier be put through hell just to remove something unhealthy, but there are other causes for a tier festering with an abnormally high power level. Personally, I think this points back to the overall health of OU and its effects on lower tiers. If OU has an abnormally high power level because of Tera or Tera Blast, then that stems into the lower tiers. By banning Tera here, we also blur the line of viability. Certain threats might be more manageable without Tera, some with, but nothing is consistent if each tier has to opt in and out of Tera or Tera Blast. I agree that a lot of this belongs in a PR thread, but I came here specifically to receive consensus on the idea from the community. To be clear, none of this was an attack on the community, this was simply a short blurb of what I've gleaned so far from my perspective.

Anyways... time for more opinionings.

1. Tyranitar

Tyranitar getting Knock Off feels kinda huge. You get a lot more mileage out of defensive sets and Choice Band can hit like a truck. Offensive MTtar seems kinda nutty with Knock, but I'm sure OU will be stealing it.

2. Alomomola

Oh dear neptune the pokegods have finally blessed us. Wishpassing is gonna go absolutely nuts, and stall is about to pop off. Really though, I think it'll be a cool tool here if OU doesn't immediately steal it.

3. Empoleon

This one I have more interest in. It's the most likely to stay out of these guys, and seems like it will contribute a lot to UU. A rocker that beats the defoggers by default, it's like UU's water-type Heatran minus the whole trapping thing.

4. Quaq

Kinda excited for its new movepool. A know Flip Turn and Knock Off aren't gonna do much for it that its other tools already do, but it's a niche addition.

3. Houndstone

Slightly unrelated but this is nice to have for lower tiers and trolling here. Houndstone my beloved.

 

[Arishem]

Very, very early DLC thoughts:



Ceruledge @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak / Close Combat
- Poltergeist

Simple, but one that's definitely huge in what it provides for any offensive setups to follow post-Tera. Poltergeist means Ceruledge finally gets some much-needed coverage to handle the majority of neutral targets in this metagame, namely things like Skeledirge, Tapu Fini, and Slowbro variants, while also being notable against other netural targets like M-Sableye and Gastrodon at +2. Dropping it for Close Combat is arguably a blow for Tyranitar and Scarf Hydreigon right now, but I've still personally found the priority of Shadow Sneak to be more useful as a whole, be it the edge it gives you in potential mirrors, or trying to pick off faster threats like the Lati-twins or Enamorus at+2 should they not attempt to proc Weak Armor for you. Also helps that we've been seeing more ways to get around Tyranitar these days, be it the bread-and-butter lures like +Spe Aegislash, or simply trying to overwhelm it with offensive pressure from things like Latios and Iron Moth in conjunction with Spikes working out in that aspect too.

- Some fun Day 1 Ghost Spam, Meowscarada runs Lum + PR so as to gain leverage against Lead M-Sab.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1942883558-wb4v23ps9edw4y9e7p9gx2113bmmlaapw



Goodra-Hisui @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Knock Off

Not sure how optimistic I could be about these additions exactly, as Goodra-H has always been something I've considered to be on the bare cusp of being great due to the horrible 4MSS it already has on the standard Tank Sets, but Knock Off and Toxic should help in regards to being able to cripple specific walls otherwise used to pivot into it, most notably things like Tapu Fini, Gastrodon, and AV Galarian Slowking (which you could otherwise tech Heavy Slam for, ensuring the Steel beats Calm Mind Clef). Speed EVs are to outspeed non-stall Skarmory and Defensive Scizor.



Zapdos-Galar @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Close Combat

???, albeit a rather unexpected buff over the more commonly anticipated Roost, still a buff nonetheless. Obviously, the upgrade from Throat Chop in base power is appreciated, as you can now more readily OHKO Aegislash sets from full (Defiant also ignoring KS shenanigans), but the other huge kicker I'd like to present is the item removal; this is arguably huge on a Pokemon with few resists to its STABs + U-turn in the picture, commonly necessitating Rocky Helmet scouts on walls like Skarmory and Slowbro to chip it down. Now, G-Zap can afford to directly cripple these Pokemon for simply attempting to do so, improving its own damage output and reliability in the long-term. Definitely something I'd watch out for right now.

 

[Lupla]

Since DLC meta has been up for 15 days by now (i think, perhaps i'm stupid or smth) i think i could share some more thoughts now that i had a good amount of time to adapt in this new-ish enviroment before shifts.


and a few others

Starting off with what i can say is the room of disappointment, most of these guys either haven't lived up to their expectations at all or they just simply didn't change much with their new tools. Quaquaval and Zarude got a few nice tools but they aren't enough to make them viable, the duck is simply bad but it has some workable defensive use because of how the tier needs hazard removal (drop corv and moltres breh) so it C- existed then that's where it belongs while Zarude is not a bad pokemon, heck the knock off buff is amazing, the issue is that Meowscarada exists which makes it experience what it did to Celebi last gen.

Gapdos and H-Goodra on the other hand kinda just don't change much, the addition of Knock Off to their toolset is certainly a good thing but they keep having the same issues as they did before DLC.

Now Empoleon just can't make up for the awful-for-the-meta typing (which has been torturing it for these last two gens by now), being a Water that doesn't resist Fire and is vulnerable to Fighting and Ground is awful when a lot of those types have been invading this meta for months by now, sure it has a movepool full of utility but the role it fulfills can be better done by other prominent similar choices like Celesteela as a specially defensive steel or Tapu Fini as a bulky water.





I think the Knock Off addition is impacting this thing a lot more in OU than UU due to the Gholdengo coping and people wanting something close to a Kingambit experience or something. CB Ttar is the one who's eating the most here as now it further hinders Dark resists that would ocasionally try to play around it like Clefable and get a better hit on Hippowdon (who has been getting a lot more use these days), other than that ig a regular ttar leftovers set is possible and DD M-Ttar gets another option so uh...yey.




Depending on who you ask this mon is either fine or probably the most obnoxious thing to have ever touched this tier. In all honesty i think mola deserves to have action taken at one point (maybe after shifts) because of how much longevity it has to not only itself but also it's teammates via stupidly high HP wish passing, it's not even restricted to Stall teams anymore as Flip Turn makes it a really good pivot into things because pure Water typing and amazing bulk makes it probably the most splashable answer to Cinderace, Excadrill, Defensive Celesteela, Victini and M-Tyranitar in just a single slot, compared to Slowbro, not having the awful Bug and Dark weakness is a massive deal that compensates the passivity. This also enables a lot of threats like Aegislash, Iron Hands or Ceruledge to play a lot more recklessly because mola is just gonna kept them healthy for most of the match, making it harder to answer such threats when they aren't held back by any thoughts of needing to be healthy at all times.




The increase use of Alomomola, Tyranitar and Hippowdon certainly doesn't favor it but it's finally a legitimate threat in the tier thanks to Poltergeist making it a good breaker that brings an amazing check to fellow Fire types Iron Moth and Cinderace. Other than that it doesn't really change much, it's not broken at all but it is a real part of the meta now.




In terms of old faces that haven't received anything new, these two actually have been popular because of how the meta has changed. Hippowdon was already popular due to the departure of Ting-Lu which made people want a new bulky ground option as well as a check to Cinderace and Excadrill who were (and still are) the most threatning attackers in the metagame, time travelling back to the present day and with the addition of Alomomola as a backup check to those two, it relieves Hippowdon from having to constantly deal with them and instead afford more into checking Iron Moth and Sandy Shocks primarly.

Iron Hands on the other way, has been claiming prize positions for a good while by being an electric who could beat Hippowdon, take advantage of it's massive bulk to check Cinderace and Meowscarada and have a good matchup vs Sand (Tyranitar and Excadrill). The high presence of all of these alongside Alomomola (who is an amazing partner as well) and Ceruledge in the DLC further increases the positive matchup spread it has.


Tbh not sure if i do like this post or not but i'd like to hear more thoughts about how are things looking like in the current meta before we probably get drastic changes from shifts so whoever has the free time to express some thoughts on it right now then go ahead ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[TBIC106]

Hello it's the aforementioned Alo hater I'll get to you later pink blob lookin ass. Gonna keep this relatively short, since I pretty much just agree with what Lupla wrote above me.

Tyranitar

This is probably the greatest beneficiary of the DLC here, catapulting it from.... the top of the metagame to the top of the metagame... Why did this get buffed again? In all seriousness, Knock Off gives TTar the only possible thing it could be missing in NatDex, that being an actually good dark STAB. Crunch is fine, but Knock Off is just so spammable that it blows Crunch out of the water despite my initial thoughts that it might see preference on DDance MTtar. It even provides competition to Pursuit on sets that would ordinarily just default to that. Every set can very easily slap on the new move, allowing it to force progress even on sets that would otherwise struggle to do much more than set rocks and counter specific threats, such as specially defensive variants. I think this is genuinely a new contender for the S tier slot in the VR, alongside or potentially even replacing Aegi.

Ceruledge

I initially didn't give this much thought, writing it off as rocks weak and a terrible defensive typing. I have now destroyed with and been destroyed by it too many times to hold the same opinions. While it has admittedly linear counterplay, and if it doesn't take a physical hit it's not winning any awards for speed, this thing can absolutely shred fat builds if given enough of a chance. Just please stop running the sash set, that's its worst one. Boots or air balloon, you'll see the difference so quickly.

Alomomola

Why did they give this thing Flip Turn? This fish should never have been allowed within a mile of that move. Alomomola goes from being another stall exclusive pink blob to the single most frustrating mon in the meta. Its passive nature doesn't even hinder it that greatly, since it now finds its best performances on offence teams of all things, where it can be used as essentially a multiple use Healing Wish. It does come with a few issues. Namely, it struggles to click any moves that aren't wish or flip turn, and usually it doesn't get to click those one after the other when you're playing into offence. However, into the bulkier side of the metagame, this thing is a machine. It can all but make your team immortal, enabling risky plays and damage tanking more than anything else in the metagame since it doesn't matter if you take 80% when Alo can restore that in 5 moves time with incredibly little risk. I like the other pink blobs. Chansey and Clefable are good mons that wouldn't hurt a fly that is a lie they very much would, but this one is not.

That said, the meta feels very stable, I like where we're at right now. Just please for the love of god can we get rid of the fish?

 

[Lupla]

Usage stats for October are out!! (it's so joever)

National Dex OU (1630 stats)

Combined usage for National Dex OU (1630 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Ogerpon-Hearthflame | 29.310% |
| 2    | Gholdengo          | 24.368% |
| 3    | Great Tusk         | 20.290% |
| 4    | Baxcalibur         | 15.605% |
| 5    | Landorus-Therian   | 15.071% |
| 6    | Zapdos             | 11.987% |
| 7    | Sneasler           | 11.915% |
| 8    | Rillaboom          | 11.348% |
| 9    | Dragonite          | 11.080% |
| 10   | Scizor-Mega        | 10.786% |
| 11   | Tapu Lele          | 10.472% |
| 12   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 10.201% |
| 13   | Heatran            | 10.066% |
| 14   | Charizard-Mega-Y   | 10.051% |
| 15   | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon |  9.973% |
| 16   | Greninja           |  9.674% |
| 17   | Tapu Koko          |  9.500% |
| 18   | Iron Valiant       |  9.222% |
| 19   | Hatterene          |  9.220% |
| 20   | Diancie-Mega       |  8.736% |
| 21   | Samurott-Hisui     |  8.058% |
| 22   | Ninetales-Alola    |  7.570% |
| 23   | Ferrothorn         |  7.535% |
| 24   | Moltres            |  7.523% |
| 25   | Garchomp           |  7.303% |
| 26   | Lopunny-Mega       |  7.115% |
| 27   | Kommo-o            |  6.936% |
| 28   | Garganacl          |  6.505% |
| 29   | Toxapex            |  6.176% |
| 30   | Glimmora           |  6.130% |
| 31   | Volcarona          |  5.963% |
| 32   | Charizard-Mega-X   |  5.676% |
| 33   | Gliscor            |  5.356% |
| 34   | Clodsire           |  5.269% |
| 35   | Pelipper           |  5.203% |
| 36   | Zamazenta          |  5.196% |
| 37   | Corviknight        |  5.028% |
| 38   | Sinistcha          |  4.687% |
| 39   | Ting-Lu            |  4.564% |
| 40   | Gyarados-Mega      |  4.543% |
| 41   | Rotom-Wash         |  4.522% |
| 42   | Iron Treads        |  4.306% |
| 43   | Swampert-Mega      |  4.082% |
| 44   | Kartana            |  4.003% |
| 45   | Mawile-Mega        |  3.712% |
| 46   | Dondozo            |  3.674% |
| 47   | Torkoal            |  3.578% |
| 48   | Cresselia          |  3.568% |
| 49   | Blaziken           |  3.556% |
| 50   | Banette-Mega       |  3.506% |
| 51   | Ribombee           |  3.440% |
| 52   | Serperior          |  3.346% |
| 53   | Slowking-Galar     |  3.252% |
| 54   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |  3.249% |
| 55   | Ursaluna           |  3.227% |
| 56   | Grimmsnarl         |  3.087% |
| 57   | Hoopa-Unbound      |  3.030% |
| 58   | Tornadus-Therian   |  2.975% |
| 59   | Alomomola          |  2.951% |
| 60   | Celesteela         |  2.891% |
| 61   | Excadrill          |  2.744% |
| 62   | Bisharp            |  2.708% |
| 63   | Iron Moth          |  2.651% |
| 64   | Victini            |  2.508% |
| 65   | Shuckle            |  2.416% |
| 66   | Tapu Fini          |  2.276% |
| 67   | Marowak-Alola      |  2.132% |
| 68   | Tyranitar          |  2.108% |
| 69   | Tyranitar-Mega     |  2.067% |
| 70   | Manaphy            |  2.060% |
| 71   | Ceruledge          |  2.042% |
| 72   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone |  1.997% |
| 73   | Hydreigon          |  1.985% |
| 74   | Skeledirge         |  1.983% |
| 75   | Barraskewda        |  1.966% |
| 76   | Cinderace          |  1.963% |
| 77   | Pinsir-Mega        |  1.927% |
| 78   | Porygon2           |  1.921% |
| 79   | Clefable           |  1.895% |
| 80   | Medicham-Mega      |  1.870% |
| 81   | Kyurem             |  1.774% |
| 82   | Slowbro            |  1.761% |
| 83   | Munkidori          |  1.659% |
| 84   | Aegislash          |  1.655% |
| 85   | Blacephalon        |  1.647% |
| 86   | Empoleon           |  1.628% |
| 87   | Chansey            |  1.616% |
| 88   | Weavile            |  1.520% |
| 89   | Azumarill          |  1.458% |
| 90   | Venusaur           |  1.426% |
| 91   | Ogerpon            |  1.357% |
| 92   | Ditto              |  1.323% |
| 93   | Skarmory           |  1.298% |
| 94   | Stakataka          |  1.273% |
| 95   | Venusaur-Mega      |  1.246% |
| 96   | Dragapult          |  1.234% |
| 97   | Jirachi            |  1.209% |
| 98   | Klefki             |  1.164% |
| 99   | Meowscarada        |  1.160% |
| 100  | Blissey            |  1.150% |
| 101  | Goodra-Hisui       |  1.134% |
| 102  | Torterra           |  1.107% |
| 103  | Sableye-Mega       |  1.102% |
| 104  | Crawdaunt          |  1.061% |
| 105  | Goodra             |  1.052% |
| 106  | Buzzwole           |  1.047% |
| 107  | Okidogi            |  1.032% |
| 108  | Primarina          |  1.030% |
| 109  | Mew                |  1.029% |
| 110  | Salamence          |  1.012% |
| 111  | Maushold           |  0.989% |
| 112  | Kleavor            |  0.964% |
| 113  | Xurkitree          |  0.931% |
| 114  | Magnezone          |  0.916% |
| 115  | Latias-Mega        |  0.901% |
| 116  | Hawlucha           |  0.891% |
| 117  | Iron Hands         |  0.883% |
| 118  | Fezandipiti        |  0.877% |
| 119  | Beedrill-Mega      |  0.866% |
| 120  | Hippowdon          |  0.856% |
| 121  | Araquanid          |  0.852% |
| 122  | Volcanion          |  0.850% |
| 123  | Gardevoir-Mega     |  0.806% |
| 124  | Aerodactyl-Mega    |  0.799% |
| 125  | Zoroark-Hisui      |  0.717% |
| 126  | Scizor             |  0.711% |
| 127  | Breloom            |  0.683% |
| 128  | Sandy Shocks       |  0.679% |
| 129  | Mimikyu            |  0.671% |
| 130  | Pawmot             |  0.667% |
| 131  | Galvantula         |  0.658% |
| 132  | Polteageist        |  0.656% |
| 133  | Arcanine-Hisui     |  0.655% |
| 134  | Tangrowth          |  0.642% |
| 135  | Zeraora            |  0.633% |
| 136  | Armarouge          |  0.616% |
| 137  | Moltres-Galar      |  0.601% |
| 138  | Latios             |  0.590% |
| 139  | Basculegion        |  0.581% |
| 140  | Cloyster           |  0.581% |
| 141  | Alakazam           |  0.562% |
| 142  | Slowking           |  0.557% |
| 143  | Nihilego           |  0.547% |
| 144  | Dracozolt          |  0.545% |
| 145  | Enamorus           |  0.544% |
| 146  | Suicune            |  0.544% |
| 147  | Keldeo             |  0.542% |
| 148  | Latias             |  0.533% |
| 149  | Kingdra            |  0.511% |
| 150  | Espeon             |  0.509% |
| 151  | Lilligant-Hisui    |  0.508% |
| 152  | Latios-Mega        |  0.507% |
| 153  | Zapdos-Galar       |  0.505% |
| 154  | Swampert           |  0.502% |
| 155  | Quaquaval          |  0.483% |
| 156  | Porygon-Z          |  0.477% |
| 157  | Lokix              |  0.471% |
| 158  | Infernape          |  0.464% |
| 159  | Cofagrigus         |  0.462% |
| 160  | Umbreon            |  0.462% |
| 161  | Aggron-Mega        |  0.459% |
| 162  | Gyarados           |  0.450% |
| 163  | Altaria-Mega       |  0.441% |
| 164  | Floatzel           |  0.433% |
| 165  | Gengar             |  0.432% |
| 166  | Tapu Bulu          |  0.426% |
| 167  | Darmanitan         |  0.407% |
| 168  | Garchomp-Mega      |  0.406% |
| 169  | Raichu-Alola       |  0.397% |
| 170  | Nidoking           |  0.391% |
| 171  | Houndoom-Mega      |  0.388% |
| 172  | Chandelure         |  0.383% |
| 173  | Sceptile-Mega      |  0.378% |
| 174  | Thundurus          |  0.360% |
| 175  | Muk-Alola          |  0.356% |
| 176  | Reuniclus          |  0.356% |
| 177  | Swellow            |  0.346% |
| 178  | Mandibuzz          |  0.343% |
| 179  | Thundurus-Therian  |  0.337% |
| 180  | Manectric-Mega     |  0.335% |
| 181  | Snorlax            |  0.326% |
| 182  | Gardevoir          |  0.326% |
| 183  | Iron Jugulis       |  0.322% |
| 184  | Scream Tail        |  0.319% |
| 185  | Dipplin            |  0.309% |
| 186  | Haxorus            |  0.308% |
| 187  | Togekiss           |  0.308% |
| 188  | Camerupt-Mega      |  0.302% |
| 189  | Metagross          |  0.276% |
| 190  | Arcanine           |  0.272% |
| 191  | Arctozolt          |  0.271% |
| 192  | Pidgeot-Mega       |  0.269% |
| 193  | Mamoswine          |  0.268% |
| 194  | Azelf              |  0.267% |
| 195  | Milotic            |  0.253% |
| 196  | Pikachu            |  0.251% |
| 197  | Vivillon           |  0.242% |
| 198  | Slowbro-Mega       |  0.239% |
| 199  | Feraligatr         |  0.239% |
| 200  | Blastoise          |  0.237% |
| 201  | Sharpedo-Mega      |  0.237% |
| 202  | Whimsicott         |  0.231% |
| 203  | Gastrodon          |  0.230% |
| 204  | Enamorus-Therian   |  0.229% |
| 205  | Weezing-Galar      |  0.218% |
| 206  | Heracross-Mega     |  0.216% |
| 207  | Ampharos-Mega      |  0.215% |
| 208  | Politoed           |  0.214% |
| 209  | Iron Leaves        |  0.207% |
| 210  | Tinkaton           |  0.207% |
| 211  | Entei              |  0.201% |
| 212  | Exeggutor-Alola    |  0.198% |
| 213  | Basculegion-F      |  0.194% |
| 214  | Forretress         |  0.192% |
| 215  | Gallade-Mega       |  0.190% |
| 216  | Comfey             |  0.186% |
| 217  | Smeargle           |  0.186% |
| 218  | Sylveon            |  0.183% |
| 219  | Noivern            |  0.178% |
| 220  | Frosmoth           |  0.175% |
| 221  | Incineroar         |  0.175% |
| 222  | Braviary-Hisui     |  0.175% |
| 223  | Shiftry            |  0.174% |
| 224  | Necrozma           |  0.173% |
| 225  | Diancie            |  0.173% |
| 226  | Donphan            |  0.173% |
| 227  | Lycanroc-Dusk      |  0.172% |
| 228  | Typhlosion-Hisui   |  0.172% |
| 229  | Pyukumuku          |  0.172% |
| 230  | Amoonguss          |  0.171% |
| 231  | Ludicolo           |  0.171% |
| 232  | Indeedee-F         |  0.170% |
| 233  | Staraptor          |  0.167% |
| 234  | Slither Wing       |  0.163% |
| 235  | Mantine            |  0.158% |
| 236  | Audino-Mega        |  0.156% |
| 237  | Scovillain         |  0.154% |
| 238  | Rotom-Heat         |  0.154% |
| 239  | Steelix-Mega       |  0.153% |
| 240  | Druddigon          |  0.150% |
| 241  | Lucario            |  0.147% |
| 242  | Slurpuff           |  0.146% |
| 243  | Conkeldurr         |  0.145% |
| 244  | Masquerain         |  0.140% |
| 245  | Omastar            |  0.137% |
| 246  | Deoxys-Defense     |  0.135% |
| 247  | Absol-Mega         |  0.135% |
| 248  | Quagsire           |  0.133% |
| 249  | Kilowattrel        |  0.132% |
| 250  | Houndstone         |  0.130% |
| 251  | Zoroark            |  0.126% |
| 252  | Uxie               |  0.125% |
| 253  | Machamp            |  0.120% |
| 254  | Glastrier          |  0.120% |
| 255  | Regidrago          |  0.120% |
| 256  | Yanmega            |  0.118% |
| 257  | Gallade            |  0.118% |
| 258  | Golisopod          |  0.117% |
| 259  | Starmie            |  0.113% |
| 260  | Sceptile           |  0.112% |
| 261  | Chesnaught         |  0.111% |
| 262  | Ninetales          |  0.110% |
| 263  | Vaporeon           |  0.109% |
| 264  | Roserade           |  0.109% |
| 265  | Corsola-Galar      |  0.107% |
| 266  | Aggron             |  0.102% |
| 267  | Vikavolt           |  0.102% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +

Raises

Charizard-Mega-X moved from NDUUBL to NDOU
Gyarados-Mega moved from NDUUBL to NDOU
Ninetales-Alola moved from NDRU to NDOU

Drops

Dipplin moved from NDOU to NDUU
Fezandipiti moved from NDOU to NDUU
Kartana moved from NDOU to NDUU
Munkidori moved from NDOU to NDUU
Ogerpon moved from NDOU to NDUU
Ogerpon-Cornerstone moved from NDOU to NDUU
Ogerpon-Wellspring moved from NDOU to NDUU
Okidogi moved from NDOU to NDUU
Swampert-Mega moved from NDOU to NDUU
Ursaluna moved from NDOU to NDUU

 

[LORD SAGIS]

isn't it unfair for ursa to drop since it was only released on the 18th?

 

[Velcroc]

Usage stats for October are out!! (it's so joever)

Kartana moved from NDOU to NDUU

Runo

Cope and Seethe my good friend. The real National Dex UU hustlers know that Kart is a B+ maximum.

Good evening all


PS Apologies to the REAL runo for getting this ping...

 

[Lupla]

isn't it unfair for ursa to drop since it was only released on the 18th?

i don't have an answer for this atm, i asked R8 and i'll edit this as soon as i get confirmation that ursaluna drops or not since it's kind of a weird case

 

[R8]

isn't it unfair for ursa to drop since it was only released on the 18th?

I have asked Marty about Ursaluna, and in other circumstances it wouldn't have dropped - this actually has to do with the DLC dropping two days before Ursaluna's ban

Quoting from here:

Stats for this month are based solely on usage from September 16th to 30th, with a 4.52% rise/drop cutoff.

In other words: yes, Ursaluna is now UU

 

[Lupla]

so yeah here we go

QUICK THOUGHTS BUT IT'S JUST ONE MON

WHY? BECAUSE YES

​

So i think we all know Ursaluna by this point, a premier offensive ground type that was super hyped by how perfect it seemed to be, the combination of Guts boosted Facade coming from a 140 attack, a Ground Type Close Combat and the coverage to melt steel birds. Then it later on fell from regular SV as it's flaws became more apparent which is a combination of longevity and being prediction reliant (tho this surely was still too much for ND huh). After it got unbanned from ND OU it saw good usage off a lot of TR teams that were already popularized by it's counterpart Bloodmoon yet despite all of that it hasn't been given enough time to truly stay in OU and thus falling to UU for a second time.


Now i don't know about some people but i feel like this thing is far from being broken (especially if SV UU was already able to handle it) as most of what it suffers from there also applies here with an even bigger pool of pokemon it struggles agaisn't which consists of Skarmory, Alomomola and the abundance of Air Balloon users like Excadrill, Aegislash or Ceruledge. That's just switching into Ursaluna, when it comes to offense the low speed and typing can leave something to be desired as a lot of ND UU staples are able to threaten it like Meowscarada, Serperior, Buzzwole, Gyarados, the newly dropped Ogerpon & Co and lastly the problem with constant hazard damage as well as burn chip that would leave it in range of nearly everything thanks to the low speed.


This is not to say that Ursaluna is terrible of course, while it dislikes the amount of offense in the tier that often outspeeds it and ends in a trade for both players as the bear is incapable of doing much by the damage it has to take alongside burn chip, the power cannot be questioned and, if played properly, it could lead into great results. Personally i have been using Bulk Up Ursaluna which takes more advantage of the great bulk, good inmunnities and significantly higher longevity which makes it able to setup on a lot of the passive side of the meta or things that aren't able to do much damage such as Clefable, Alomomola, Slowking-Galar (absorbs status from both), Tyranitar, etc.


Here's a few replays i've been having with a para spam squad

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1957131166-11g59d6ljkorpfxy0zqk27g4w8yso15pw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1957136173-8jc4ddejzijogj82glz5cfk85dhm3empw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1957126786-6bxc1soyscjhao4dkwai6bainwiv2yipw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1957154059-nk4gn21wpwsxioa789y2r3zcqd732onpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1957095112-23nr61pktfhnl2847muuhvp92u5yosepw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1957099543-j2wdk6lxrndc82qk7g6lk4m6n7b8rx5pw

(last two had a -atk ursaluna lol)


In conclusion i think Ursaluna could be a good part of the meta, mainly as not just a good attacker that can threaten the common mola cores (except skarm ig) but also another bulky Ground that functions as a good wincon (it's been a while since we had ting-lu man hippo feels tiring). Anyway have a good day smth gn gm bye

 

[J3stH0LLyy]

Well, looks like the tier shifts did NOT go the way anyone expected. I'm glad we get another month of Mega Tyranitar, and that NDOU took A-Ninetales because my god that thing was annoying. Screens are still a problem though.
That aside- the drops. The part that's REALLY interesting, the ones that caught us all off-guard. Namely...

Looks like the restraining order expired, or something like that.
Really, there's not much to be said here, I just wanted an excuse to make a funny image. Kartana is back, after we thought we'd gotten it off our backs.
Rapid firing the reasons why this mon is absolutely absurd, 181 base attack with that kind of movepool and STAB combo is gonna send chills down anything's spine, specially down here, with very little to reliably answer it, much less anything that wants to take a hit from it switching in. Skarmory can wall it out, but it risks getting Knocked, and Kartana can just switch out to keep pressuring you with its tried and true combination of Leaf Blade, Smart Strike, Sacred Sword and Knock Off. This mon is incredibly reliable, hits like a truck, takes physical hits well, and is one of the best revenge killers you could ask for. Its speed tier is above average, which is more than enough to make it one of the scariest scarfers around, while also being able to succeed with Choice Band. Beast Boost takes all of this and makes it thoroughly overkill, able to take entire games off of one good revenge kill.
TL;DR: This thing is a goddamn powerhouse and the fact it's down here AGAIN after it got put on the radar in the early stages of the tier is honestly a bit comical. It's the most likely ban out of all the drops, and I have no doubt it's getting the Torn-T treatment soon. It'll be fun to spam it on ladder, though.

I like this thing.
I don't know if it's healthy or not, I will admit that much- it has problems! Meowscarada makes it take over 75% minimum from U-Turn, and can potentially one-shot it after chip. It's pretty frail, and of course it doesn't get a proper item, though it does get effectively 144atk as a tradeoff.
Water Ivy Cudgel is a REALLY good move, very reliable, and in my personal opinion not exactly ridiculous. It doesn't resist much, but it has very few relevant weaknesses. Flying weakness pretty much doesn't exist outside Gapdos and the only real relevant Poison user in the tier is Mega Venusaur. Bug weakness is relevant as mentioned earlier, though- it's VERY susceptible to fast U-turn users, and without setup it can't really do enough damage to break through walls. Mega Venusaur namely HARD walls it, unless it runs Zen Headbutt, in which case it can OHKO at +2, but it does not seem like a good user of the move. Personally, I've been using Play Rough for coverage! It's quite useful for Mega Latias, non-Scarf Hydreigon, and MAYBE Meowscarada, but only if it's already locked to dark. Don't try to 1v1 Meowscarada with this thing, just don't. Unless you're at the very end of the game and you know you can kill it, just don't.
Most notably, the part that I absolutely LOVE, is that it completely shut downs Alomomola cores. Yes, Kartana does the same thing, but it does it by committing war crimes. I like how it shuts down Alomomola, it turns its Flip Turn attempt into a free SD turn, and sweeps from there with Ivy Cudgel and Wood Hammer, which it can get away with using despite the recoil because of its speed tier, in my opinion. It's fun. I like this. It might get banned once people figure it out more, but at the same time it might become easier to deal with as people figure it out the other way. Either way, I will keep using it whether it gets banned or not. I'm biased. I like Ogerpon.

YOU.
While I don't think it's as busted as Kartana, I do think it will probably get banned. 100% accurate Stone Edge is absolutely messed up, specially off of that (effective) 144atk stat. Rock/Grass is a really good offensive typing, it's pretty decent defensively, and it's pretty difficult to revenge kill despite how frail it is, due to Sturdy. This mon will, at minimum, take something down with it, more often than not.
It's admittedly frail, and it does share bad matchups with WaterPon, but the matchups that shut down Waterpon are often matchups that Rockpon can just smash through with Rock Cudgel. There's a reason Stone Edge has low accuracy, and Rockpon just doesn't care about that.
I have less to say about this one because its good traits are very much just inherent to it and less metagame dependant, though there's very little that can wall it out. If it has Swords Dance, our steel/flying mons get busted down by Rock Cudgel.
We might figure out more of its weaknesses as time go on, but right now it is a very, very potent mon.

This thing is silly.
I say this positively. I like Ursaluna! I haven't been running it, but I think it's pretty unique. It has some problems, its defensive typing is not good, it gets walled HARD by plenty of mons in the tier, notably it can't touch Skarmory at all, and relevantly if Waterpon gets an SD off it can smack it hard upside the head. If chipped, it gets OHKO'd by Gapdos Close Combat, and if Gapdos is banded it will one-shot it outright. It has a few other problems, but I don't want to make this post too long.
It's not bad, though! It has quite a few good answers, sure, but it's undeniable just how utterly potent it is and how bulky it is. It's a bruiser and a half, able to CRUSH neutral matchups, capable of taking hits and dishing out ludicrous damage with its Guts-boosted attacks. If it gets a Swords Dance off, pretty much nothing is capable of withstanding its assault. I don't run it, but I like it, you know? I find it fun to play against, it's definitely something to look out for, but it's not unreasonable to deal with. Solid B/B+, in my opinion.

HE'S DRY. HE'S DEHYDRATED.
I just included him because I feel bad for him. From the days of Gen 7 OU, where he was the scariest Rain sweeper around, to now being all the way down at UU, where Drizzle is banned, so he doesn't have the rain support he needs to succeed. He'll probably fall to RU, unfortunately.
A shame, really. I like this design a lot. Who knows, though, maybe some maniac will find a way to make him work with Rainy Day instead of Drizzle, but it's very unlikely. I honestly find this drop strange, last I played NDOU, he was pretty damn decent? Though, I haven't played in a long while, I dropped off somewhere around the time of the Kingambit suspect test, simply because I got sick of Tera.
Mega Swampert got done dirty.

There's other drops, but I don't exactly feel strongly about them. The Loyal Three have an interesting gimmick, but they have nothing else going on other than that. Their stats are underwhelming, their movepools aren't that impressive, and their abilities aren't BAD exactly, hell one of them has Technician, but other than that, they're quite underwhelming.
Dipplin is bulky as hell with Eviolite, and it can get super-accurate Leaf Storms and Draco Meteors, but its stats are quite underwhelming. It doesn't have much else other than that in terms of moves, so I don't see what it could do down here.
I would have speculated more about Grass Ogerpon because, again, I REALLY like Ogerpon, but considering the other two forms dropped, I don't see the base one doing much of anything, considering the other two just do whatever it does better. Maybe if they both get banned, I'll have more thoughts, because I WILL try to make it work if it's the only remaining form. But, for now, it looks like it's not gonna do anything with its other forms and Meowscarada being around. Man, Ogerpon REALLY hates Meowscarada in NDUU, huh?

And that's my thoughts for now! Take them with a big grain of salt, as I'm not the most experienced player and we're literally within the first day of this new metagame.
I've been having fun, and I do really like where the tier is at right now. Even the broken drops haven't been too havoc-inducing, though I do insist Kartana deserves the quickban.
Good luck to the NDPL players, don't let the big origami creature eviscerate you too hard!

 

[Lupla]

welcome to part 2 (and finale) of...

QUICK THOUGHTS BUT IT'S JUST ONE MON
Not really meant to be part 2 i just thought i'd be funny since this is actually day two

WHY? BECAUSE YES2 (slight gore warning i think)

​

Ogerpon-Wellspring is one of the recent pokemon introduced in the Teal Mask DLC, the Water version of Ogerpon when holding the signature item "Wellspring Mask" that works similarly to Z-Crystals, Mega Stones or Silvally/Arceus items in that it can't be knocked off but gives a 1.2x power boost to all it's attacks. Despite the amount of good trades it has (decent typing, ability, stats, exclusive item and good support movepool which included Knock Off, U-Turn, Spikes, Encore, etc) it's been mostly overshadowed by the main Ogerpon that dominated OU (which was Hearthflame ) and Wellspring itself still had problems that prevented it to keep up with the tier.


Now for how does Wellspring fare into the National Dex UU metagame? The amount of good Grass and Water type competition is not lacking in UU with the prominence of Meowscarada, the other two Ogerpons, Serperior and the newly dropped Kartana are all excellent grass attackers that have their great place in the metagame and especially Meowscarada who shares a lot of it's trades but being way faster, having a wider coverage and Protean. The waters are consisting of Tapu Fini, Slowbro, Keldeo, Gastrodon and Gyarados as either Bulky Waters or Offensive Waters.


Honestly? It's pretty damn good, it shares most of Meowscarada's trades and trades the speed for not just way more powerful stab attacks and Swords Dance but mainly Water Absorb. While it may not be obvious at first that a 4x Water resist pokemon has a immunnity to that same type as one of it's best features but it's way more impactful than what you might think, the presence of Flip Turn Alomomola has drastically changed how the meta operated as teams got one of the best pivots in the tier that keeps it's teammates healthy by just Wish passing only on them, no need to receive the Wish yourself as Regenerator and your amazing defensive profile allows you to stay healthy by just keeping your team full of longevity.


This is where Wellspring comes into play as the Water immunnity makes it one of the best answers to such an important piece of a team's composition, it doesn't stop there either as it's able to both threaten Alomomola with a great variety of Grass moves (Seed Bomb, Power Whip, Horn Leech or Wood Hammer) but it also allows it to setup either a free Swords Dance or layers of Spikes way better than what Meowscarada could do (even more rewarding if mola lacks Toxic). Taking advantage of a great momentum machine in order to turn it into YOUR momentum with whatever you want. This is something that neither Meowscarada nor Gastrodon are able to do as they either lack the flip turn immunity or the momentum of U-Turn (Water Absorb being better than Storm Drain in this matchup too to preserve health).


It's not like Wellspring is even exclusive to this matchup only (otherwise it wouldn't be that great) since on it's own, it's a great pivot that threatens a good amount of common choices such as Iron Moth, M-Tyranitar, Ursaluna, Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Tapu Fini and a lot more, the amount of versatility allows it to fit on a lot of teams, from the Swords Dance sets being a good option for more agressive teams (mainly HO) as a good water removal that's still a massive threat but mainly the advantage it has agaisn't Alomomola cores and the pivot variants having good use of Knock Off, U-Turn and Spikes as they're good at forcing switches. While all of this sounds like an amazing choice, it's not like it has no problems in this meta (far from it), the speed tier is great but there's still a good amount of faster threats that often scare it out with a clean OHKO from it's burdening U-Turn (Bug) weakness such as Meowscarada, Scarf Hydreigon, Scarf Gapdos or Cinderace. Being both a Grass that doesn't resist Electric, itself and a Water that doesn't resist Fire also leaves it on a difficult spot for finding opportunities that aren't just Waters, making it difficult to properly use when fighting other offensive teams stacked with the previously mentioned options, the lack of other usable items due to the necessity of the mask also leaves it more predictable vs offense as it can't really surprise them as much and often has to be careful.


Nevertheless it has shown to be a great performer who compensates it's worst but still manageable matchups with a great amount of versatility to deal with more slower Balances or Bulky Offense squads excellently.



In this case i went for a Scarf Magnezone Sand Team in response to Kartana (who i might talk about in a later post perhaps) in which also included a Salamence as a backup FWG and Fighting backup resist.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1957931467-vf55k3yri9zby1f6dxjri4ts5rzefj5pw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1957887847

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1957923236-esc5vrueub63ck6zufebtos3o9t93cspw

I'm not sure if this post was really good enough to show what Wellspring does as it being a newer mon would probably require a lot more experienced writing and stuff (which i'm not exactly the best or even that good at, the amount that of stuff that this post has doesn't feel great) but i've been having some great moments with it as a breather from the mola cores that are so irritating to deal with sometimes.

 

[Arishem]

DLC Thoughts: The Sequel


Echoing parts of what was said above, turns out the mascot of a recent indie game added to Pokemon Showdown has quite the potential down here to find a striking balance between hyper-specific stall killer to metagame destroyer. I haven’t had problems dealing with Flame Orb sets personally; issues with chip damage are easily accentuated with things like Spikes and Helmets in this metagame, and the speed issue making it otherwise required to trade with things it normally beats, like Aegislash and Tyranitar usually means it can only force 1v1s at best before being picked off by a faster mon. Trick Room also doesn’t really do as much to fix said issues either, even with things like P2 in the picture I often find the defensive synergy between Luna and the setters to be quite negligible for most of the aforementioned tactics to fail, namely capitalizing on the setter switchin before the Teleport/Lunar Dance hits. Bulk Up on the other hand definitely feels a lot more consistent with the metagame at hand, defensive investment + Lefties in conjunction with techs like Protect/Rest, on top of Guts allowing you to absorb status from common walls like Alo and Hippowdon with or without Tera, cool mon in retrospect and might just be what the tier needs among other areas. Another Ground :sob:


Honestly fell into the trap of wanting to give this the boot immediately, but I’ve found the current metagame to have already adopted aspects against it to the point where that decision is out of the question. The prevalence of Screens as the most common offense means Scarf sets are rarely sweeping games against offense anymore, to say nothing of the increase in threats we’ve seen that can take advantage of choice locked sets naturally, namely Fires like Ceruledge on HO and bulky pivots like Cinderace and Iron Moth that soft check, as can walls like the aforementioned Skarmory and Buzzwole that only really risk being blown up by the Z or occasional coverage move in practice, to say nothing of the opportunities it gets in particular being dictated by many of the other things running around, like with the defensive emphasis on Regen spam. Of course, it’s still telling in regards to the number of other ways Kartana might still end up being unhealthy which are yet to be explored, which leads me into the following:

I would like to propose that Kartana is quickbanned into an immediate suspect. I feel as if the playerbase is currently too divided on it for there to be a defined majority against Kartana, yet with NDPL currently on the run, I also find that adding it to the tier may impact the pace of NDPL too greatly to receive a proper evaluation under those circumstances alone, especially with many of them being considered situational to most defensive cores currently occupying the tier. I am ultimately excited to see the dynamics encouraged further by Kartana’s addition in the long-run, but believe that a compromise on the divisive perspectives going around should get a proper resolution first before anything else.

And finally - here’s a rapid fire list of every other drop I’ve experimented with lately.

Hide

- Specs and Scarf definitely aren’t it in a meta dominated by defensive aspects as hard as this. One thing I think is worth trying with uu’s diddy is some pivot thing with Boots + Bish support, owing to its ability to chip Tyranitar and Grounds more easily while packing longevity.

- Also a fun alternative to Lead Meowscarada with Sturdy + Spikes, trades a bit of the speed for increased power which allows you to delete foggers and opposing setters more easily as opposed to just Taunting them.

- Very surprised given the whole conundrum SV has, but I’ve definitely liked its adequacy in abusing the various Waters of the tier. STABs and SD with defensive Grasses not being as common also means meaning you can afford to drop coverage and run Sub in the last slot to a pretty major extent.

- Has potential with Bulk Up + Taunt given its nice Tox immunity and ability to spread chip, definitely dislikes the prevalence of Grounds pressuring it in conjunction with Wish Alo / Fini support though.

- Surprisingly dangerous late-game cleaner on offense that can outrun Scarf Kartana and remove Sand while checking threats like M-Tyranitar itself and Ace.

---

- DLC offense featuring stallkiller Enam, bandwagoners on screens aside, Hands still broken no matter what mfers tell you.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

You cannot evaluate Pokemon without tournament games. By suddenly removing it you rob the tier of crucial metagame development and then put it into a suspect were you have face bad players and form no opinion.

qb into suspect is cancer I don't care if official tiers do it, its still a bad idea and should not be allowed on this site. If Kartana you feel is a problem just do a suspect.

 

[Arishem]

You cannot evaluate Pokemon without tournament games.

Does that mean posts which also focus primarily on delivering key facts and knowledge become obsolete in the slightest? This is just blatantly false, if not flat-out ignorant toward the contributions people have made in the past.

By suddenly removing it you rob the tier of crucial metagame development and then put it into a suspect were you have face bad players and form no opinion.

I never discussed the idea of ‘removing’ Kartana in the slightest. Rather, the irony here is that you just downplayed the capacity of the top players to learn and build their own opinions on the tier by insisting that they are only obligated to learn from the suspect ladder under said circumstances.

When the time comes for it, suspecting Kartana as opposed to quickbanning would also allow people from both perspectives to have equal say on the greater consensus. If done for the sake of a more agreed upon outcome by the time of its reintroduction into PL, then so be it.

qb into suspect is cancer I don't care if official tiers do it,

Just as much as I could see your lack of care put into this sentiment… At least try to hide the fact you avoided several of the points above.

I highly suggest you use anything informative besides unconcentrated aggression if it’s ever in your best interest to argue persuasively.

 

[R8]

I personally think there isn't much to lose by letting Kartana allowed in NDPL: yes, it might impact the tournament in a negative way, but on the other hand this is an opportunity to directly observe its impact on the metagame through high level replays, which would help assessing Kartana's impact and ultimately make any tiering decision about it more informed. If the Pokemon turns out to be actually insane it will surely be quick banned anyway, which is something NDPL games can also help to prove. In a nutshell, I believe making sure tiering actions are as informed as possible should be a priority over the stability of whatever tournament is going on right now.

 

[Lupla]

I can agree on letting kart in for NDPL if possible (and if i'm honest, i wanna torture them with it)

One of the factors that makes a big difference with OU Kartana and UU Kartana is that, unlike in OU, you don't have things like Zapdos, Moltres or Torn-T to punish choice sets from making any wrong predicts but even then a lot of teams not only have a good amount of Grass, Dark and Fighting switchins (Since we were dealing with Meowscarada, Iron Hands and M-Tyranitar already) but can also have to just do a few changes to be more up to what's on right now and go from there.

What people use to check Kartana is mostly no stranger to the meta already, a good amount of these have been great for a long time while others have taken more of a spotlight with the start of the DLC brining Flip Turn Alomomola (relevant for things like Skarmory, grasses or Iron Hands). They all check Kart and it's variants in some way (Higher speed, bulk, resistances or inmunnities, etc).





It's only Magnezone the one who truly raised in order to deal with it using Scarf sets and it's not like the set is JUST stuck in dealing with Kartana, it still traps Skarmory and Scizor but doesn't OHKO Celes who still takes a lot of damage to properly do anything after that.

SD sets are the ones that have been making a lot of talk which i can agree that they're hard to wall and make most checks fishy but those also suffer the issue in that they absolutely need a setup turn (especially Normalium Z) but still struggle with being slower than the common scarfers (Hydreigon or Enamorus), the Latis, Cinderace or Iron Moth and if past OU gens, who have been dealing with a mostly unwallable SD Kartana, are able to deal with it despite the circumstances enough to not consider it as much of a big problem for the tier as other things then i don't see how we truly can't handle it either.

There's no denial that Kartana will become a really controversial threat in the tier, and if it ends up being banned then i'll take it without any problems, but i feel like this is something we need to give a try compared to something like Torn-T who was just bullying the tier with not much to contest it with. i'll support letting it stay on NDPL in order to see if the impact it leaves is an unhealthy presence to the tier or not.

 

[Lupla]

Alola everyone, with the permission of Arishem (to double post) i shall be putting an end to the 5th page of metagame discussion with me sharing thoughts about the survey pokemon.



I feel like Wellspring has been more of a problem than Kartana (this is gonna be here again btw) due to how stupid SD Ivy Cudgel is, a strong physical move that doesn't make contact is just so free and this mon is able to threaten and setup on so much of the tier, the power it has alongside a great speed tier and versatility in it's moveset makes it really difficult to deal with as it's not just abusing with SD sets potentially bonking your entire squad but also pivot sets capable of filling your entire field with Spikes. I really do like this mon but i feel like it's one of the biggest ban worthy mons in the watchlist.



Another one that, yet again, feels much more of a problem than Kartana, Cinderace has been here for a long time and it's pivot capabilities are on it's peak of unhealthyness, it's just too easy to spam Libero U-Turns when you're capable of forcing so much stuff with strong attacks if even physical walls like Hippowdon, Alomomola or Slowbro, who are usually one of the common answers, have to be constantly healthy yet still be annoyed by the constant U-Turn spam in conjuction with other moves like Will-O-Wisp or Gunk Shot. Standing at an incredible speed tier that only misses out on 3 or 4 mons, out-offensing it is just not as reliable and with the limited options available that are considered as "Reliable" makes it really constricting in building that won't even be enough at times. It's really sad since this also keeps a lot of things in check due to how splashable it is as an offensive check, especially with Court Change being one of the few methods of Hazard Control, but it needs to be suspected at one point.



Guts Ursaluna has been feared since it dropped and while i don't have the same opinion as others do, i can see why they want this suspected or even quickbanned, given how destructive a well played Ursaluna demolishes teams. Not much to say here as i only used it on Bulk Up sets.



quickban this and light clay ok bye.



Iron Hands is also one of the biggest winners in this, as the meta has been evolving in such a way that it benefits it on every direction, with the amount of offensive presence this tier has, Iron Hands is capable of not just tanking it off but also be a huge threat by itself, the bulk is just demonic and it gives it so many opportunities to setup and regain it's health back via SD Drain Punch that it often needs the entire opposition to team up on it. The increased usage of M-Venusaur is what slows it down a little bit but it's not just Screens calling it for a potential suspect but it's also possible that it might get it on it's own instead because of how well it adapted to every single meta shift.



I said this too many times already but this is the main issue with Stall, this goblin right here is the one who's making stall troublesome and not Dondozo, enabling stall teams to comfortably play at any pace because of how much this thing covers and most notably not making everything be forced to just having Boots (which is what helps Dondozo the most, the fact it can afford to get passive recovery). If we ever consider Dondozo to be back, this guy is the main culprit imo.



Already said how obnoxious this thing is before the October drops in one of my posts and most of it applies right now, besides the addition of Wellspring, it pretty much removes any form of danger when paired up with it and either prolonging games to stupid amounts or just allowing wallbreakers to play recklessly and freely.



We've been through the Tera days in which i also talked about how this mon isn't even close to broken, these days it's better off as a revenge killer and healing wish supporter with Scarf sets or just trying to wallbreaker with Specs since Glowking usage has been dropping for a good time. Calm Mind sets with Z-Crystals are possible but those are difficult to setup with the OK speed tier, low bulk and weakness to rocks.



Still a bit iffy about Kommo-O but i think we can re-test it at some point? maybe next year, Sun is a BIG NO this playstyle is bs and Dondozo could be re-tested if M-Sableye gets action taken at one point.