Metagame Gen 9 S/V National Dex UU Metagame Discussion

[I am New]

which is the best form of ho rn? What are their main cores???

 

[buayagator]

which is the best form of ho rn? What are their main cores???

I think the best is standard setup spam consist of 1 suicide lead and 5 setup sweeper

Their main core is suicide lead, the role is to setup stealth rock and do as much damage as possible :

Some example:

Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Tomb
- Earthquake


Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Explosion
- Flamethrower


Mew @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock


Krookodile @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

The rest of setup sweeper is up to you, NDUU have so many pools of sweeper like and many more.

 

[I am New]

I think the best is standard setup spam consist of 1 suicide lead and 5 setup sweeper

Their main core is suicide lead, the role is to setup stealth rock and do as much damage as possible :

Some example:

Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Tomb
- Earthquake


Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Explosion
- Flamethrower


Mew @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock


Krookodile @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

The rest of setup sweeper is up to you, NDUU have so many pools of sweeper like and many more.

Ah I see. is weather teams good?which is the best?whats the core?

 

[TBIC106]

Ah I see. is weather teams good?which is the best?whats the core?

The main two weather styles at the moment are sun and sand, since torkoal and ttar have dropped to the tier. If you want some cores, then I'll paste some below.

Sun

Torkoal @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fighting/Grass/Steel/Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Solar Beam

Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Trick

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Grass/Fire/Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Weather Ball
- Earth Power

This is probably the stronger of the two weathers, since these two threats are monstrously strong. Venusaur with a chlorophyll boost can be impossible to outspeed via regular means, with it beating many scarfers in the process. Victini is also one of the strongest wallbreakers in the tier, and when sun boosted 2HKOs even the bulkiest of physical walls, though I'll refer you to the suspect thread for an analysis of Victini.

Sand

Tyranitar @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Thunder Wave

Excadrill @ Steelium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide

Dracozolt @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Dragon Claw
- Low Kick
- Draco Meteor

Sand is probably slightly weaker? But that's just on account of not having an instant win button versus stall, so that's not to say it's bad. Dracozolt is still terrifying into stall, due to it still outspeeding everything outside of sand and bolt beak shredding everything before it that isn't a ground type, pretty much. That paired with sand rush excadrill to remove gliscor using it's z-move can be incredibly effective.

I think that's all the analysis I can give, rain does exist but is much harder to play on account of losing pelipper, and I am far from an expert on it. Hopefully this helps!

 

[Arishem]

Time has passed and it's been a while since anyone's done a layout for the current meta, so I'd like to post some thoughts on my top 10 to start on this.

#1

- If you've played against it you'd know just how ridiculously effective Aegi is, no longer crippled by the need to run defensive sets as much with the bulk and typing to rival nearly everything else. Keep pairing this with Tera Ghost's ridiculous offensive flexibility and it's enough to handle.
#2

- Clear-cut best glue for a ton of teams at the moment. Has it all between Rocks, Defog, Ground, status immune, and even wincon with SD. Gets into what it needs to with just Tera + EVs without losing effectiveness and rarely lacks opportunities to force progress on free turns.
#3

- Anything but the single most immediate offensive threat right now, pair this with access to a fast Pursuit in a metagame dominated by several Ghosts and Psychics, along with numerous SD sets to outlast checks with a more methodical approach, and Weavile clocks in as #3 on top.
#4

- Best Mega in the tier by far, takes hits like nobody's business with higher phys bulk than Skarm and base 164 Attack goes hard. Arguably the most customizable in the builder as well, be it through most of offensive Rocks, Pursuit, coverage, defensive EVs .etc
#5

- Feel like I find something novel that Victini straight-up beats with the right set every day ngl.
#6

- A well-rounded defensive pick with the utility to find use on nearly every team comp, between the likes of Knock Off, Thunder Wave, Wish, and more to pair with the excellence of Magic Guard. Mostly remains outside the top 5 because it can either be surprisingly passive or frail depending on your set.
#7

- Less Ting-Lu usage is great and has been finding its way onto more offense comps lately using stuff like various Specs and CM sets. Still annoyed by Pursuit but playable between Tera and options people can get experimental with such as Sub.
#8

- Can't be a top 10 without the demon himself and having >30% freeze rate over 3 turns with STABs just makes me hope to cry, either the easiest or most difficult thing to deal with depending on your comp as a result of lacking reliable ins.
#9

- Still requires very specific checks; resists are one thing but resists that actually threaten this back outside of toxic are another.
#10

- Boots sets are already extremely hard to kill and being arguably the best u-turn spammer just adds, has a really nice speed tier for the meta too.

And that's my opinion, however, I once again heavily encourage others from the cord to bring some of their ideas here too. Going to tag a list of people I hope to hear from - you're all free to support this discussion when you see fit.

Tags

3MoreMinutes Lupla R1C3M4N Runoisch Meminger21

 

[3MoreMinutes]

My top 10 is very similar to Arishem's (prob share 8/10 with similar order) so instead of creating my own, I'll just highlight some more mons I think are good rn.

- I think this is the other (with Tyranitar) elite mega in the tier, it's just a simple, bulky, and strong setup sweeper. Power Whip + STABs gives it great coverage, and Sub/Taunt are nice (but slightly niche) options. Base Gyarados is also good, but I don't like it as much as Mega since the +30 (!) to Atk/Def/SpDef is very noticeable.

- Scarf is decent but I'm bringing this up as a CM abuser, similar to its Mega form. The addition of tera means it isn't outclassed anymore. I've used Tera Electric, Steel, and Poison all to some success. It's significantly weaker than Mega Latias but with a correctly timed tera getting +3/+3 is very easy.

- Not much to say about this, it clicks Curse and Tera Dragon and wins games. Unless there is a Kyurem.

- This mon does not belong in UU. Z-Clang, Throat Spray double Clang + Tera Normal Boomburst, as well as more niche sets like Belly Drum and more defensive stuff make this thing a pain to deal with. It has too many good sets, and notably also has great defensive utility + rocks.

- Another boring one, you click Leaf Storm and win. Tera compliments its best set from previous gens (Sub + Glare), making it easy for it to get an extra turn or two to boost.

- Victini's partner on sun, in my experience Venusaur is even more threatening than Victini on these teams. Growth + Giga Drain + Weather Ball beats most of the tier, and it can run Earth Power for Iron Moth pretty freely. Sludge Bomb is also solid but Sun is generally pretty scared of Iron Moth.

- DD + defensive Teras make this mon a pain, Glave Rush is also an insane move. This thing abuses the fact that our scarfers are pretty mid rn. Haven't tried Choice Band but it seems good as well.

 

[Meminger21]

Here is a list of the best mons in the tier imo and some comments on them. I also made some mentions below. Basically, I think the best archetype is Offense, HO and Stall are also really good, Hazard stack and Sand teams have a lot of potential and Balance is kinda impossible to build since there are way to many mons to check right now.


#1 SD with CC and Ghostium-Z has very little counterplay, Shadow Ball doesn't have many switches either so defensive sets with Shadow Ball, CC, King's Shield, Subs are really annoying to deal with mainly with a Tera-type. Overall it has an amazing typing that helps checking a bunch of mons while still having an amazing offensive utility. There's also subs Toxic, but with Chansey, Blissey, Gliscor and Iron Moth I don't think it's really worth it.

#2 Best deffoger in the tier, decent rocker, can be very threatening with SD. Also checks some relevant mons like Aegislash, Cinderace, while being a great status absorber. Tera Water is also really good vs Weavile, Fini, Tyranitar-M and some Fire-types.

#3 Choice Band doesn't have much checks, Pursuit is really good and SD sets are good. On HO it can also make use of sash and Electric tera passes through Fini, Skarmory and mons with defensive Water tera.

#4 Most reliable check to Z-Celebrate Victini, is a good Scarfer, decent deffoger and Calm Mind sets can be very dangerous. I think Latias is better than Latias-M for its ability to Tera.

#5 +2 with Steelium-Z koes basically the whole tier. (also good on ho as lead)

#6 Really hard to deal with without using tera, Waterfall, Crunch, Power Whip and Mold Breaker destroys almost any defensive core. Intimidate also has a nice utility and Taunt/subs sets are pretty good too.

#7 Among so many threats I think Iron Treads has a high place on this metagame, it can do so much, it can put rocks, be a spinner that can threaten Aegislash, it has access to Earthquake, Knock Off, Volt Switch and even Ice Spinner so you won't be walled by Gliscor. I think it can fit pretty well on more offensive teams and work as a pivot.

#8 Fini is a strange mon, it's really good with Scarf, but it doesn't really revenge kill anything because of tera and its poor offensive stats, but it's still pretty good at crippling defensive cores with Trick or trapping mons with Whirlpool. Fairy-type is also really good and being able to freely spam Moonblast is nice. Calm Mind sets can also be good, but I think right now the metagame is way too offensive to have any real relevance. Another thing that makes Fini good is being able to check Weavile and Gliscor while being a decent hazard control option on more offensive teams. Aegislash being so good is really bad tho, mainly if it's z-move.

#9 DD sets are really dangerous, defensive sets can set rocks pretty well and threaten most deffogers while also being able to Pursuit some mons and it can trade damage really well. Struggles vs opposing hazards tho and can't recover.

#10 Incredible Fire-type, can reverse progress with Court Change, amazing Pivot and Pyro Ball + Gunk Shot is already enough to threaten most of the tier. Also gained access to Will-O-Wisp and Taunt, which can be decent.



Some mentions:

Hazard stack is really good and it abuses the fact that Gliscor is the most used deffoger. It has some trouble vs Aegislash, but +2 Brave Bird is almost a 2HKO and it has access to Throat Chop.


Hazard stack is really good


( ) It's really nice to have so many viable fire-types. Blaziken is kinda broken, Iron Moth is nice on bulkier teams since it's a decent special sponge and has access to some nice moves like Toxic Spikes, Morning Sun and U-Turn (on HO with Booster Energy and Energy Ball+Tera Grass is really good too), Victini with Z-Celebrate and Choice Band fit on specific teams but are very powerful while sets with boots and Blue Flare and U-Turn might also be very good. Volcanion and Blacephalon are also pretty good, but not as good as the others, scarf Blacephalon might be good, but I think I still didn't see it being used, Volcanion is a nice defogger and can be a powerful wallbreaker, tera Grass/Ground is nice on it too.

With so many Fire-types and Aegislash it can be a bit hard to make it work, but it can Glare so many mons and is such a threat mainly behind subs that it needs to be respected. It can also be used as a Deffoger since it can beat Gliscor, Tyranitar-M, Gastrodon and Ting-Lu.

We finally got these 2, but unfortunatelly most threats in the metagame are physical and the existance of tera makes it harder for them to beat its checks.

Really good mon, but it struggles to find its place on most teams since the metagame is really offensive with a lot of really powerful mons. It's nice if it's using Unaware but with Magic Guard it can struggle to be effective in most games.

This mon is soooo annoying to deal with, it can just use tera to pass through its checks, tera Steel/Poison let it tank hits from Clefable, Fini, Buzzwole and Aegislash.

Another absurd mon to deal with, Boomburst has no switch-ins, Z-move is really hard to deal with too but a bit moer managable.

Stall is good becauses of this mon. Really hard to break and it can be a potential wincon

Scarf Pawmot is quite decent, Double Shock, CC, Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Revival Blessing, Volt Switch, you choose 4 of these attacks and you have a good revenge killer, a potential Revival Blessing user and a mon that can use unresisted attacks.

 

[ShaunShen]

WE WON SWELLOW BROS... ITS NOT IN NDUU ANYMORE!!!!

 

[TBIC106]

Oh boy, I have some thoughts if we're doing top 10s, though I feel like a lot of people's lists will be the same. The main point of interest is the order, which I disagree with a few of the other posts about.

#1 - Gliscor
Others have this mon in number 2, but I would elevate it to number 1. It's near ubiquity with the tier should be indicator enough for how good it is on a variety of teams spanning every style. And while its signature defensive pivot sets are mostly seen on balance and bulky offence, it can fit on both stall - with a more defensive utility set - and hyper offence - I haven't seen enough double dance gliscor, get on this people - with similarly good results.

#2 - Mega Gyarados
No disrespect to aegi, but it just doesn't win games as easily as mega gyara can. Mfer got over 400 attack with a jolly nature before you even stack up a dragon dance, and it finds no end of opportunities to grab one nearly for free. It doesn't even need to be mega evolved to be threaten teams, allowing you to keep the defensive utility of intimidate should you need it.

#3 - Aegislash
Okay, no more slander to this mon from me. Aegi is a threat. Subtoxic has always been prevalent, and more recently Swords Dance + King's Shield sets have been showing up, though I don't doubt this mon will eventually pull something else out of its immense movepool. The potential is limitless with this mon.

#4 - Victini
The recent recipient of a suspect test, and a part of the metagame I wish I didn't need to consider, Victini is incredibly powerful. Band sets are literally unwallable on sun teams, and Z-celebrate sets can often be overwhelmingly powerful into offence, with its presence on a team forcing opponents to keep checks and counters to both sets alive throughout whole games or lose on the spot.

#5 - Dondozo
I don't think it's yet sunk in for a lot of people how busted this mon is. Sure it only finds its place on stall, but dear god is it a menace there; when the list of things you wall is "the entire physical side of the metagame except for tera fire choice band victini in sun and special hits I resist" you should not be outside the top 5. The only thing preventing me from putting it higher is its signature moveset with waterfall and curse being unable to hit water absorb and storm drain mons like volcanion and gastrodon, but that's a small price to pay for how ridiculous dozo is.

#6 - Kyurem
Yet another on the list of "figure out the set or die for it" alongside aegi and victini, Kyurem has so much flexibility it hurts. The ability to set up 101 HP substitutes should not be underestimated when the defacto kyurem switch in is blissey, potentially allowing dragon dance sets to get two dances while still maintaining its substitute. However, the sheer destructive capabilities of specs sets cannot be underestimated, and the versatility of special boots sets as well. Whichever one you use, this mon is a menace.

#7 - Tyranitar
This is the big deviation from the other lists. I do not like mega tyranitar, or rather I find that it's typically less useful than its base form counterpart. The complete lack of recovery on mega ttar can be highly detrimental to it throughout a game, allowing it to be worn down by stealth rocks, spikes and other such forms of passive damage. It's weakness riddled typing also doesn't help with this, and while using mega you can't use terastalisation to help. So I am of the opinion that the more useful variant is often base tyranitar, which can hold leftovers and maintains its ability to terrastalise. That being said, this doesn't mean mega ttar is bad. Loading into a ttar on preview means you immediately need to try and guess if it's base or mega as the responses to both can be very different, which adds to the strength of both forms. As such, I'm putting regular ttar here rather than mega, though it can be considered to share the spot.

#8 - Mega Latias
Mega latias is incredible, to the point where I'm nigh convinced that it should be on almost every bulky offence team it could possibly fit on, and a fair few balances too. Its ability to switch in on a variety of both special and physical threats and set up calm minds on them is second to none, with its speed tier being excellent into the meta. Additionally, it is probably the best of the few coveted iron moth checks, turning an otherwise potent sweeping force into a set up opportunity.

#9 - Weavile
Yep. I agree weavile is an immense threat. It's stab coverage is nigh unwallable into the tier. But man is it hard to build with, and that's where I think it's flawed. Swords dance sets find themselves vulnerable to scarf tapu fini and dondozo, and choice band is incredibly threatening but weak to rocks. And there is not enough good removal to reliably keep rocks off for enough turns to allow weavile to hit the field easily due to its nightmarishly bad typing defensively. Couple that with the prevalence of tera water gliscor? I find Weavile overrated, even if it is immensely threatening.

#10 - Iron Moth
Remember I mentioned moth before? This is the sole reason why blissey + clef is not enough for stall to wall the special side of the meta consistently. Morning Sun variants guaranteed beat blissey, while its typing keeps it safe from the toxic blissey would otherwise use to stall through similar threats. Specs and booster energy sets have the potential to just boost up and beat blissey raw with good fiery dance luck. U-turn gives it the ability to run choiced sets without losing momentum, and gives boots sets the ability to act as an immensely powerful pivot. The meta has shifted to deal with moth in recent weeks, but that doesn't mean it isn't lurking in the wings, waiting for the prime time to re-emerge and terrorise the metagame once again.

There are others I wish could be up here. It feels criminal for bax to not be in the top 10, excadrill is also incredibly good at the moment and kommo-o is uniquely powerful. But I think this sums up my views on the best mons in the meta.

 

[buayagator]

Its nice to see top 10 postings

This meta is rather stable now (no rises & drops, victiny keep unbanned), I hope we gets VR resource this month

 

[Arishem]

As much as I'd anime gif here, that's unfortunately for lupla only :pensive:

April shifts are up, we got a few new interesting drops but generally nothing too significant. Feel free to discuss the following as per usual.

Rises:

UUBL -> OU
UUBL -> OU

UU -> OU

---

Drops:

OU -> UU
OU -> UU
OU -> UU

---

Grimmsnarl finally makes its way down after a fairly long stint in the tier above, largely owing to the emphasis on all the brutally strong offensive threats that came with the new generation, with even a few of them having previously dropped to make their impact known long before the majority of it could reach the metagame at hand, even having gained a solid new tool in Parting Shot itself, which should help to reinforce its previous value of being preserved in the midgame, whether to act as an emergency brake to opposing offense or to simply have the extra opportunity to reset screens. Regardless of either and the many vicious setup sweepers currently dominating the tier, Grimmsnarl looks to have quite the stable place in this metagame, having plenty of free turns to set both forms of screens against common staples such as the Gliscor and Slowtwins, while also having the advantage of being able to shut down walls and hazards with Taunt to further support the likes of Baxcalibur, Gyarados, and Sash Polteageist.

Skeledirge manifests itself as the other significant drop of the given tier shift. The current state of the metagame will likely be a bit out of place for it, owing largely to two of the most versatile offensive threats in Mega Tyranitar and Weavile being capable of threatening it offensively while remaining extremely adept and splashable themselves, on top of being able to trap it with STAB Pursuit, while numerous other Ghost-types such as Blacephalon and Aegislash both supply stiff competition for it. Nevertheless, a Fire + Ghost typing complemented by Boots and solid natural bulk should serve to have some respectable defensive utility in other areas, most notably countering the likes of Iron Moth and Cinderace by default, while also being able to stretch its defensive repertory to other attackers with the combination of Unaware + Terastallization, allowing it to potentially cover Pokemon such as various Rain Sweepers, Dragons, and even Swords Dance Excadrill on defensive teams, burning these Pokemon in advance while remaining fairly hard to switch into offensively. Maybe a Substitute + Torch Song set could also see some use, owing largely to its ability to force switches, and being able to use various Pokemon like Clefable and Skarmory as setup fodder while playing around the aftermentioned Darks more reliably.

Iron Leaves has a few interesting tools to set it apart as an offensive sweeper, namely decent coverage options, Swords Dance, and even access to Booster Energy for a one-time boost to its Speed, but just narrowly lacks the traits needed to use them to full effect; Aegislash is currently the best Pokemon in the tier, and easily resists Iron Leaves to threaten it back with Ghost STAB without Tera Fire, while crippling weaknesses to Bug, Dark and Ice aren't great to have in a metagame dominated by various offensive options packing these types either, namely from various forms of priority such as Cinderace's Sucker Punch and Weavile's Ice Shard, Scarfers still threatening it at +1 Speed such as Meowscarada, and being forced out by one of the most common moves in the game against Pokemon it would otherwise like to set up on, such as U-turn from Gliscor. Only time will tell to see if Iron Leaves ever resurfaces, perhaps it might should the tier ever settle and thus allow it to be explored further.

 

[Capfoo]

Well, Weavile is now gone, and as a result the meta is slightly different now. Whilst I was one of the few No Ban voters, I for one am looking forward to being able to use a few mons again (such as Mega Latias).

I do, however, want to mention a few notorious Pokémon at the moment, which are seeing a lot of discussion, and my thoughts on them.

Dondozo

If there is one Pokémon that has my vote for the most broken and oppressive Pokémon in the tier right now, it's Dondozo. Defensive Pokémon are often less obviously broken than offensive ones, so I get how it has stayed in the tier for so long. But it's high time it goes.

The Unaware Creep we have experienced in Gen 9 is pretty bad, with Skeledirge and Clodsire being notable steps up stats-wise to prior options like Clefable and Quagsire, and Dondozo is yet another addition to this particular rogues gallery. This thing sports an absurd HP stat of Base 150, and with a sturdy defence of 115, it is nigh-impossible to break it on the physical side, with only options like Mega Gyarados (more on that later) being ever able to break past it (and even then, with great difficulty). The only weakness Dondozo has is its mediocre Special Defences, and its lack of reliable recovery. But here's the kicker - it doesn't even need reliable recovery to be oppressive. It is just that bulky that it can safely run RestTalk sets and not really be any poorer for it.

This has the effect of completely invalidating basically any physical attacker in the game and the tier. Physical attackers already are less viable in competitive Pokémon than Special Attackers - Intimidate and Burn are both strong tools you can use to counteract them, with the game not having Special Attack equivalents to these. But Dondozo takes this to another level. You simply cannot break past a Dondozo on the physical side, no matter what you do, especially if it has even one Curse boost. And that alone means it should be banned.

Kyurem

One of the few Pokémon that is actually able to keep Dondozo in check, Kyurem is also pretty busted, and I think in need of at least a suspect test.

Many people speaking of Kyurem's brokenness will point to its offensive presence, and that is indeed the main reason it's broken. Both its Attack and Special Attack are high at Base 130 apiece, and if this weren't enough, it has access to Freeze Dry and a very respectable Special Movepool for Special Sets, and Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear on the physical side. These are definitely why it's busted, but I want to point to another reason - its bulk.

Kyurem has actually very impressive bulk, with an HP of 125 and defences of 90 each, it can eat a fair few hits in the right circumstances. This is actually what I believe enables its worst sets (Substitute + Roost), as it's actually quite difficult to whittle it down effectively, which on such an offensively powerful Pokémon, and as a result, I think Kyurem is worthy of a suspect test. However, seeing as Kyurem is one of the few things that is able to keep Dondozo in check in the tier, I would only support tiering action on Kyurem after Dondozo has first been seen to.

Mega Gyarados

Mega Gyarados is just about the only Pokémon that is able to beat a Dondozo on the physical side. And even then, it needs a pretty specific set of circumstances: the Mega Gyarados must already have multiple Dragon Dance boosts, and the Dondozo mustn't be able to Tera. If these conditions are achieved, then Dondozo can be beaten.

It is therefore a tad strange to me that people are clamouring for a Mega Gyarados ban, given that it only maybe has a chance sometimes to beat a Dondozo. My logic is simply thus - if it were so broken, wouldn't it be more of a 50/50 situation between the two? But let's move away from the Dondozo comparisons, and onto Mega Gyarados's interaction with other Pokémon. Firstly, full disclosure - I am a Mega Gyarados user. I would absolutely be impacted were it to be banned, and as such you may take these opinions with the pinch of salt they are due. But as someone that both uses and plays against this Pokémon a lot, I do not think it is remotely worthy of a ban.

This is because the only times when I ever lose to a Mega Gyarados is when I let it set up more than once. Mega Gyarados is, in my opinion at least, quite easy to Revenge Kill. Yes, you do usually have to rely on some off-meta Pokémon/off-meta Sets to do so, but none of these Pokémon/sets are all that bad in NDUU - options like Meowscarada, Tapu Fini, Iron Leaves, Zapdos-G and Lokix and are just a few solid options that will work well for this type of role. This is saying nothing about playstyles like Sand, Sun or options like Unburden Sweepers, all of which handily outspeed +1 Mega Gyarados and either force it out or KO it. All it takes is just switching out into the right thing at the right time. Is this risky? Yes, but so is the process of preventing a lot of sweeps on offense teams. Sometimes you'll get it wrong and lose. But the same would be the case of any number of other sweepers.

As for Defensive teams, I cannot comment as much on these as I don't typically play defensive playstyles, but I can at least speak to my experience playing Mega Gyarados into them. Firstly, Mega Gyarados is incredibly strong into Stall. I don't think there's much denying this. But as mentioned, Dondozo is a big problem for Mega Gyarados, and even Pokémon like Tangrowth and Skarmory can give it a fair bit of trouble. Naturally, this trouble isn't perfect, but I do personally at least feel like it is enough to keep Mega Gyarados in the tier (albeit a strong option near the top of the Viability Rankings).

Mega Sableye

Some people might expect an offense player like myself to loathe Mega Sableye, and want it removed from the tier. But this is actually not the case. I personally do not see Mega Sableye as a problem Pokémon. Is it annoying, and good at what it does? Yes, absolutely. But it is also not that difficult to work around a Mega Sableye in my experience.

For me this is because basically any Fairy type gives it a whole host of issues. Tapu Fini is probably the worst contender, as whilst Fini doesn't usually want to lose its item, Sableye cannot otherwise touch it, but there's plenty of other decent fairy types that give it grief, such as my preferred choice of Mega Gardevoir, or even Clefable. Alongside this, even though they aren't super-effective, Mega Sableye is an itemless Pokémon meaning that any strong hit on it that does at least 50% of its health is a losing situation for the Sableye, and these attacks are not that difficult to achieve. Even non-offensive options can deal with Sableye, with Pokémon like Excadrill and Tinkaton being strong utility options that make its life miserable.

So yeah, I rarely consider Mega Sableye a problem, and I think it's perfectly good to stay.

 

[TBIC106]

This is a discussion that has been lurking in the shadows, brewing for a bit now. I think we're approaching what could almost be considered a balanced metagame at the moment. Obviously monthly shifts could screw that over at a moments notice, but that's the world we live in. So, without further ado, I would like to present my thoughts on what should be considered broken and ban worthy at the moment.

No. 1:


Dondozo is, bar none, the single biggest issue with the meta at the moment imo. I know the common arguments about how defensive mons are less obviously broken than offensive ones, and while I do agree that's the case I'm still astounded at how this monster has flown under the radar so long. Dondozo runs two sets, both of which are almost identical.

Curse

Dondozo @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Waterfall
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Two Attacks

Dondozo @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Wave Crash
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This mon does one thing, and that one thing is incredibly important: if you are a physical threat in the metagame, you don't break dondozo. Not only do you not break dondozo, you potentially allow it to set up and sweep. It doesn't matter if you've collected boosts, you get walled. It doesn't matter if you have base 165 attack, you get walled. Sure there are some threats it may not switch into comfortably, MHeracross and Iron Hands are the two most recent threats I've seen that could constitute this, but if it gets in at 100% and awake against them it will win the 1v1. Additionally, it's probably the best abuser of terastalization we have at the moment, with tera dragon completely flipping all of its weaknesses and forcing your opponents to play the game of chicken that tera is so notorious for at the moment. But even if terastalization did get banned, I don't think the threat this mon poses would diminish to the point that it shouldn't be banned anyway.

One of the main arguments against dondozo's ban is it's lack of reliable recovery. This is a weakness, yes, but as proven by the two sets it runs rest is more than just a viable option. I would almost run it over recover sometimes, to prevent it getting toxic stalled, and without it you should just always be running the move. It's bulk is so immense that it doesn't even care if its moves are random for two turns, if you get unlucky you can just rest up again and fish for a second curse, or an attack to finish off your opponent and go on to sweep. This mon wins far too many matches by coming in once than it has any right to as a stall mon. Against well constructed teams it shouldn't be able to do that, but all the same I've seen it happen time and time again.

The next common argument is its poor special defence. This is true, it does take 60-80 from the vast majority of unboosted special hits. The issue is that it doesn't get OHKOed. And once again its physical bulk is so immense that unless you have another special attacker in the back, it kills your special threat with +1 waterfall/liquidation/whatever attacking move you have and your physical attackers bounce off for 15%, letting it just rest back up. While this trade happens less in practice than it does on paper, it is still a tool in dozo's arsenal if it needs to go for a hail Mary in the endgame. And this is before you even consider the almost perfect defensive core it creates with clefable, let alone blissey.

Finally, pp stalling. This I actually agree with, the easiest way to deal with dozo is to pp stall it. The issue then becomes; what pp stalls it? Subroost kyurem can, but dozo is already switching out of subroost and kyu can often be scared of coming in on it for fear of eating 50% from a body press. You can switch around it, but then you're eating hazard and waterfall chip. You can try and wall it, but, as we've already seen, it doesn't care about status because of resttalk. On top of that, what's walling a +6/+6 dozo? I can tell you something that will. Your own dozo. And that's it. Now you're in a position where the only option on both sides is to see who's dozo has more pp. This ditto has gotten so crazy that I'm now running -speed nature and 0 speed IVs on my dozos because I don't want to flinch my opponent's dozo with waterfall when we're both maxed out.

I have had multiple games come down to dozo vs dozo dittos, where the one who wins is the one with the more pp. I have had games where it has swept single handed from 1-4 down with no support other than one special threat on the opposing team dead and the other weakened slightly. It's counterplay is so limited that it forces mons like kyurem and MGyarados on teams, which are some of the best mons in the tier in their own right but, as the saying goes, "broken shouldn't check broken." Get this mon out of the tier.

No.2:


Can you tell I think stall is a little too powerful at the moment? That being said, this one I feel much less strongly about, and I won't be going on at nearly as much length on. Mega Sableye is the best hazard denier in the tier, with it being perfectly fine to switch into many common rockers and recover off damage, as well as potentially cripple them with knock off and burns. The reason I don't think this mon is banworthy, though, is because of how much pressure it comes under during a game.

Sure, it finds its way in against common rockers like ttar, hippowdon, iron treads and blissey, but it almost never does so for free. If you're playing a sentient player, they won't click rocks the first few times they get their rocker in, but you're forced into sableye just in case they do, and that means chip. You get to 40 and have to recover? Now you're staring a wallbreaker or stallkiller in the face and have to switch. Conversely, there are plenty of hazard setters it doesn't beat. As I'm now running on my stalls, rocks clefable forces it out and sets rocks. HO Mold Breaker excadrill couldn't give two shits about it; you're only there to set rocks anyway so it doesn't matter if you get burned, plus you can even run toxic and potentially cripple said MSab. Who the hell knows what a mew is going to do, so I'd almost much rather switch to blissey against it than risk random nasty plot dazzling gleam. These options are limited, but not impossible to slot onto teams, especially once we achieve a balanced meta and balance clef can start showing up again. Still, with all this being said, I do recognise that MSab is incredibly good, and I can understand why people would like it to be banned. I just don't agree that it's as warping as some of the threats I'm also going to talk about.

No.3:


Now we're talking. Consistently ranked no.1-3 on many people's personal rankings, mega gyarados is probably the single biggest threat in this tier. It's switch ins are limited at the best of times, it's counters even more sparse, and the team style it finds itself on often gives it exactly the inch it needs to run away with games at the drop of a hat. MGyara is almost HO exclusive, you can find it on rare BOs too, and its unique combination of traits make it almost impossible to handle. Mold Breaker lets it boost through unaware. Base 155 attack is insane for a sweeper, potentially letting it claim kills without needing to click dragon dance at all. Power whip as coverage makes it nigh unwallable, forcing a tera out of the aforementioned dondozo to counter it, and just in case you get comfortable with your tera dragon curse sets as counterplay it'll whip out taunt instead to ruin your day. What makes MGyara probably a bit more divisive, however, is that it's counterplay is slightly more available than dondozo.

For stall, skarmory and tangrowth are both viable picks, and both can potentially handle MGyara. For BO, scarf meowscarada is probably the best revenge killer in the tier because of MGyara. For HO, you have focus sash sweepers that allow you to even potentially reverse sweep off it. The issue I find with this is a stipulation of what I just said about meowscarada. It's as good as it is almost solely because of MGyara. As I've found at least, tangrowth can be handy for stall, but its main job is handling MGyara. And focus sash doesn't even work for HO if hazards are down. The support it needs to end games is minimal, and it can often switch in turn 4 after an excadrill lead and grimmsnarl screens, then just win. Many of its other checks are flimsy at best. Kyurem can die to +2 adamant crunch, or even +1 if it's sufficiently chipped. Iron hands is incredibly uncommon on teams, and if the opposing gyara happens to be z rather than mega then it's potentially lights out to an EQ. It has enough bulk to live hits from serperior and kill back with two +1 crunches. And to top it all off, every counter you can come up with is always at the mercy of a couple waterfall flinches. With some of the games I've had, if they were in a tour context I'd probably have spawned a couple of Lavoses.

I'm not sold on a ban for this mon despite all this, but the more I'm looking at it the more I'm leaning towards it being oppressive.

No.4:


Between this, Mega Gyara and Big Dozo, I'd say this completes the trifecta of what I would consider the unhealthy side of the meta. So much stuff that could be used just isn't because you need a reason not to just use kyurem. Subroost is massively popular at the moment because of how prevalent stall is, which can go both DDance + Icicle Spear and freeze dry + earth power. Specs is the most powerful wallbreaker in the tier. Roost 3 attacks is one of my favourites on BO, with modest having almost the perfect speed tier in my experience. This is possibly the second mon that requires a dedicated check on stall, the first being MGyara, because of how destructive it is otherwise. And which check that is varies by set. The safest switch is always blissey, which beats specs most of the time. But this can be exploited by subroost, which then forces you to double out to clefable, which doesn't enjoy icicle spear, or skarmory, which doesn't enjoy freeze dry. Once you know the set it's less of an issue, and tera steel clefable is pretty consistent at dealing with it, but the fact that I have to mention tera in its counters as the second best option should be a red flag.

To add to all this, it may not have the best defensive typing, but its bulk is considerable even without investment. Living +2 crunch from non-ada MGyara is not something to sneeze at, especially when it has roost in its arsenal. Add that to how little support it needs to enter the game, as well as abusing the omnipresent tera water gliscor more reliably than anything else, and you have possibly the most constraining mon on BO to ever exist. It's almost impossible to run anything over it, and it causes massive issues for every other style without dedicated checks and counters.

No.5:


Aegislash is an interesting one. I think this, along with the final mon I'd like to talk about, is probably the next thing that needs talking about for bans from what I can see of the current meta. Aegislash runs two sets commonly, and has many more that it can potentially run viably. Since this post is already a mile long, I won't get into too many details because I don't think these mons are a pressing issue before the top 4 are looked at. The main thing to note here is that the only ironclad counter to aegislash is gliscor. Every other check can be worked around in some way because of the sheer offensive versatility this mon provides. Definitely one to keep an eye on, though I think we'd need to see a meta without Dozo, MGyara and Kyuwu first.

No.6:


Oh hey, would you look at that, the no.1 most used mon in the tier, who'd have thunk? Gliscor's omnipresence is part of what makes a lot of mons good, and a lot of others bad. It's presence shapes the metagame around it almost in a way nothing else does. You might ask "But doesn't this sound warping and constraining? Why is it not a pressing issue?" This is why I bring this up at all, because that's correct, it does warp the metagame. The reason I consider it healthy rather than unhealthy is because for every mon it makes bad, it makes another good. It allows for mons to adapt to it, while many of the others on this list don't, due to ice coverage being relatively plentiful and its role on every team it's on being that of utility. It will eternally harass the opponent, but never threaten a win unless all your mons that beat it are dead and you don't have enough survivability left to outlast it.

 

[Niadev]

Shifts are out and it's a doozie:

Rises:
NDUU -> NDOU

Drops:
NDOU -> NDUU

Gliscor leaving is huge as it was on a significant majority of teams for the sheer role compression it provided and the large number of mons it checked. While we have other grounds, none came close to how splashable Gliscor was.

Meanwhile, Zoroark-Hisui has basically unresisted neutral coverage and is basically Zoroark but better in every way. How it competes with Blacephalon and Gengar remains to be seen.

tl;dr We are in big doo doo

 

[TBIC106]

I think we're approaching what could almost be considered a balanced metagame at the moment. Obviously monthly shifts could screw that over at a moments notice, but that's the world we live in.

Apparently I'm an oracle. This was both a massive lie and brilliant prediction apparently, as losing gliscor and gaining zoroark throws the entire meta into disarray once again. And I am going to be the first to jump on this with some speculation



Just what we needed as gliscor left, another base 110 speed, monstrously strong special threat. Hisuian Zoroark has an insanely good typing, especially given its ability illusion, both offensively and defensively. With access to a massive move pool, it can do just about anything you want it to. Ghost types are incredibly hard for the tier to deal with at the moment; the only thing holding blacephalon back was a speed stat that let it be abused by said base 110 tier staples, lack of fighting type coverage to punish the darks in the tier and its stealth rocks weakness. These are traits that Horoark does not share.

Shadow ball hits 90% of the tier for either super effective or neutral damage, which isn't too bad coming off a 125 base special attack at first, until it uses nasty plot and suddenly kills everything in neutral. If you don't like the turn of set up, specs shadow ball is probably going to become the most spammable move in the tier. It then gets u-turn, so it can function as an effective scarfer alongside its specs breaking set, as well as focus blast to nuke the darks that otherwise stifle it. And if all that wasn't enough, it gains access to taunt, trick and will o' wisp, which then allows it to function as support or stallkiller with substitute. If you really want to get crazy, I have also learned it gets access to Z-Happy Hour for an omniboost on screens teams. Because why wouldn't it?

It's going to be a wild ride with this thing in the tier, as well as gliscor leaving shaking up the entire physical side of the metagame. Happy teambuilding everyone! Since I'm pretty sure 90% of everyone's teams just became obsolete.

 

[KaiZ]

Even though this thread is dead I just wanted to show y'all an old strategy I used to do with and for + before gliscor has risen to ou (Please come back ;-;)

So here's what I used to do:
I send out , If comes out first I use knock off turn 1 expecting a gliscor switchin since I have plasma fist, on turn 2 I switch to expecting for to earthquake and then I use agility for set up and then nasty plot not caring if gliscor would poison me and if switches in then I use z-hurricane or hurricane in general. And the rest of battle is I use to sweep with. Not a good strat Ik but it was a strat that worked most of the time :)

(I didn't save the link for the battles with that strat sadly D:)

Edit: It was goltres not mandibuzz

 

[Wesley23675]

Hi I'm new to the meta, just want to ask what sets do mega aerodactyl usually run? it's stabs seem quite inconsistent in terms of accuracy, so I figured hone claws may be the way to go since it's already quite fast already, but I do see more ppl running dragon dance instead?

 

[Runoisch]

Hi I'm new to the meta, just want to ask what sets do mega aerodactyl usually run? it's stabs seem quite inconsistent in terms of accuracy, so I figured hone claws may be the way to go since it's already quite fast already, but I do see more ppl running dragon dance instead?

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance / Taunt / Roost / Pursuit
- Stone Edge / Roost
- Dual Wingbeat
- Earthquake

This is the Mega Aerodactyl set from experience. Most of the time it runs Dragon Dance, but fast utility sets like Taunt or Pursuit pop up as well. Hone Claws is an alternative to Dragon Dance but it likes being faster with Dragon Dance so it can outrun all of the revenge killers.

Also questions like this would be better suited for the SQSA thread :3

(edited the set)

 

[MudkipBeans]

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance / Taunt
- Dual Wingbeat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Roost / Pursuit

This is the Mega Aerodactyl set from experience. Most of the time it runs Dragon Dance, but fast utility sets like Taunt or Pursuit pop up as well. Hone Claws is an alternative to Dragon Dance but it like being faster with Dragon Dance so it can outrun all of the revenge killers.

Also questions like this would be better suited for the SQSA thread :3

Your moves are correct but I’d say your slashes are slightly misplaced, all of DD / Taunt / Roost would be in the first slot, since Taunt + roost only works with dual wingbeat + eq as coverage, and likely with magnezone support. I think taunt 3a or pursuit 4a is pretty consistent at the moment cuz dd is hit or miss, literally.

To make this post into a more relevant discussion about the metagame, I’d like to discuss some things that have been going on and why I think some mons including mega aerodactyl are really showing a good performance in the current metagame now that our lord and savior Gliscor has ascended to greater heights.


I’d like to start off this post by saying that hopefully this fucking demon will be removed from the metagame very soon. The change from Hail to Snow came with the downside of no hail chip, but decided to boost this things bulk to monstrous levels. Turns out running this thing with a slowtwin using Chilly Reception gives it both free switchins and a free 1.5x defense boost, and can possibly start clicking blizzard. If I were to then take it’s bulk to a maximum, I could invest heavily in spdef and start to pressure stall Clefable, one of its only reliable answers. Gking can equally as easily be pressure stalled by a spdef set that can even start dding if it wants to. Freeze dry having 48 PP is even worse, as even if you’re walled by something like skeledirge, no problem, just freeze fish. Want to hit it with a physical move? Snow says no. Finally got it into a corner? Tera now comes into play and fucks everything up. I could go on for a while about it’s offensive sets too, but I’d be here forever.


This thing is pretty good, what gliscor does to a mfer is crazy. This things actually got a pretty good scarf set, with volt switch earth power tbolt and spikes as a last move. Tera ice isn’t so necessary when your best counter was also the best defogger, so you couldn’t set up spikes. Now if you’ve got a check you need to circumvent, a speed control option resistant to rocks and can set up spikes with a nice flying resist for steela is very valuable. Of course this isn’t to discount how dangerous a Tera set could be vs teams reliant on specific grounds like Gastrodon, but it’s certainly not it’s best set in my experience.


The metagame has acquired the sire, and it’s a solid ground to fit on balance. Gaining access to stealth rock and spikes makes it an incredibly versatile physical wall on more balanced teams looking to have a ground that can reliably set hazards in most matchups. Gastrodon fills a very similar niche, but the benefits of Unaware and comparatively higher physical bulk do make a significant difference. Especially with how I think certain threats have shown up and become really solid, it pairs and checks those two well. Unlike gastrodon, it can’t really take on Clefable or Tapu fini, so extra support is appreciated.


Solid speed control, strong STAB options and the ability to punish its answers hard make it pretty solid to fit on almost any style of offense, and even balance. Technically you could even fit it on semi-stall for its pursuit, but honestly you’re better off with sableye. As said above, it has some good sets and absolutely loves spikes support, since nearly all of its good answers are hit by spikes, with Skarmory being the only exception.


Turns out that monstrous bulk does something really similar to melmetal last gen, where it can take basically any one hit and respond to whatever threat it needs. This thing is a trade machine and pairs well with all the spikes going around. Highly slept on and can even punish clefable with Heavy Slam sometimes on choice band sets.