Metagame Gen 9 S/V National Dex UU Metagame Discussion

[Niadev]

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[Sprites coming soon!]

Welcome to National Dex Underused! This thread will be used to discuss the National Dex UU metagame, letting users share theorymonning ideas, metagame observations, and sets! Every Pokémon that is under the 4.52% cutoff of the National Dex OU ladder or is not banned to UUBL is allowed in the tier.

It's time for a new gen, and with it some crazy new Pokemon to use (including former NatDex AG Pokemon and Pokemon that never fell to NatDex UU at all during Gen 8)! NatDex UU will be in alpha for the first month, so nothing beyond the initial banlist will be banned.

This is the current banlist [sprites coming soon!]:

National Dex AG

Blaziken-Mega, Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, Deoxys-Speed, Flutter Mane, Genesect, Houndstone, Iron Bundle, Kyurem-Black, Magearna, Melmetal, Naganadel, Palafin, Regieleki, Roaring Moon, Shedinja, Zamazenta-Crowned
[more complete one coming soon]

National Dex OU

Blissey, Chansey, Charizard-Mega-Y, Clodsire, Corviknight, Cresselia, Cyclizar, Diancie-Mega, Dragapult, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Gholdengo, Glimmora, Great Tusk, Greninja, Grimmsnarl, Hatterene, Heatran, Iron Valiant, Kingambit, Landorus-Therian, Lopunny-Mega, Magearna, Melmetal, Pelipper, Rotom-Wash, Scizor-Mega, Skeledirge, Swampert-Mega, Tapu Koko, Torkoal, Tornadus-Therian, Toxapex, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Venusaur, Volcarona, Zapdos

National Dex UUBL

• Annihilape
• Charizard-Mega-X
• Espathra
• Garganacl
• Manaphy
• Mawile-Mega
• Medicham-Mega
• Xurkitree
• Zamazenta

Council:
Niadev
MudkipBeans
sanguine
Pubo
Ryuji
Arishem

Tiering History:

Hide

12/01/2022: Alpha phase
12/07/2022: Chi-Yu banned from NatDex OU
01/01/2023: Beta phase
01/04/2023: Annihilape, Espathra, Charizard-Mega-X, Mawile-Mega, Medicham-Mega and Zamazenta have been quickbanned from NatDex UU
02/01/2023: Out of beta, meta officially released
02/11/2023: Garganacl, Manaphy and Xurkitree have been quickbanned from NatDex UU
02/14/2023: Victini Suspect
03/03/2023: Victini remains legal
04/01/2023:
Torkoal UU -> OU
Grimmsnarl OU -> UU
Skeledirge OU -> UU
Iron Leaves OU -> UU
04/07/2023: Mega Pinsir and Baxcalibur have been quickbanned from NatDex UU
04/10/2023: Weavile Suspect
04/26/2023: Weavile has been banned via suspect

In addition, this gen we are moving to our own Discord (again!). We will remain active in the UU channel in the National Dex discord for the alpha period while we transition over. You can find the discord by clicking here.

That's all for now! Here's some notable drops from NDOU! (Not including Pokemon new to S/V, and more may be added as I get reminded of them)

IMPORTANT: Please refrain from posting one liners.

 

[G-Luke]

From AG to UU in a generation, you hate to see it

 

[LORD SAGIS]

ffs I want to leave Natdex behind me but then I see a Zamazenta Hero UU metagame and now I have to come back

 

[hidin]

certainly the tier ever rn
have fun with tornt and iron hands!!

 

[Brown4Sides]

I'm more worried about Kartana than I am about Zamazenta tbh

 

[dapokermon]

Would Cinderace be a notable drop?

 

[Niadev]

Would Cinderace be a notable drop?

Going by the fact I also put Greninja there, yes, my bad. I just forgot because of the Libero nerf making it way worse and probably not as notable. Fixed.

 

[pokeclysm]

There's just no way Zamazenta-Hero is surviving past day 1. Its defense is really good, it has a great STAB in Body Press, and it can set up properly now. In addition, its crowned form got quickbanned from OU, and the only reason no one used Hero there is because Crowned was everywhere. Suffice to say, enjoy the dog while he lasts.

 

[shadowpea]

ctrl+f iron bundle no results (all banlist hide tags opened)

glhf

 

[Blitz]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-are-now-banned-from-national-dex-ou.3711717/

Your ctrl+f game is weak af

 

[shadowpea]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-are-now-banned-from-national-dex-ou.3711717/
Your ctrl+f game is weak af

so its just missing huh, i thought i was insane for a second

 

[N_Mareanie]

Meta is insanely wild right now, with lots and lots of different new Pokemon in the tier. I just wanted to highlight three Pokemon so far that have caught my eye immediately after the first few initial games...


3. tornadus-therian

Tornadus-Therian @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Bleakwind Storm / Hurricane
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Defog

Very standard set, but UU finally has access to insanely good removal with the tier. Tornadus-T provides so much needed roles for teams currently - great speed tier, pivot, hazard removal, knock off user etc. Getting this while other behemoths like Kartana, Serperior, Rillaboom and Volcarona dropped is great, and also benefits greatly from pretty much the entire Rain squad (Pelipper and friends) dropping to the tier.

2. chi-yu

Chi-Yu @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark / Fire / Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic / Tera Blast

Chi-Yu being insane in a meta without a Chansey or Blissey in sight, who would've thought? Beads of Ruin is an insane ability and basically makes it very hard to consistently switch into this. Some soft checks like Kommo-o have no business switching into coverage move Psychic, while checks like Hydreigon and Mega Gyarados can be tech'd for with Tera Fairy alongside Tera Blast, which also hits Kommo-o (though oftentimes you will be preferring using your Tera on a different Pokemon, which is why it's slashed in the last slot). Can say for certainty this is one of the best Pokemon in the tier right now. Mega Charizard Y + Chi-Yu Sun am I right?

1. zamazenta

Zamazenta @ Choice Band
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Fighting / Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge

Surprise surprise, the literal box legendary of Sword & Shield and former Uber legendary Zamazenta is without a doubt the best Pokemon in the current metagame. Utterly fantastic speed tier in 412, being pretty much the fastest non-Scarfer in the metagame (no one is using Zeraora right now, be real), good attack stat, all alongside great coverage moves. Crunch aims towards hitting bulky Psychic types like Slowbro / Slowking + the Lati twins and their mega evolutions, while Iron Head hits Clefable and other Fairy types such as Tapu Lele. Last we have Stone Edge which is for Volcarona, a Pokemon being spammed to hell and back right now - Stone Edge also gets the OHKO on Tornadus-T. Zamazenta is a very polarizing Pokemon already and I'm very curious to see how the upcoming tour will handle what very well could be the most absurd Pokemon to have ever been allowed in a UU tier.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obviously, the tier is utterly filled with ridiculous Pokemon right now. We've all seen that Kartana, Volcarona, Pelipper + Mega Swampert + Manaphy, Iron Valiant and Mega Mawile have dropped (alongside many, many others). I'm sure the upcoming tour will be very fun and a tour we have never seen the likes of before, so I am super excited to see how everything will turn out!

 

[Poppi2011]

Since the new psuedo is in UU (suprisingly), do you guys have a good loadout or strat?

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Torn-T has no business down here I swear, it just feels wrong and disgusting by uu standards, considering we banned it to ubers last gen.

 

[Niadev]

Small announcement but please refrain from one liners in this thread. If you want to post one liners, come do it in the discord server.






Anyways so that I myself am not posting one liners (even though I have already but hush), here's some rain checks because oh lord I know we need it.

- Grassy Glide is nerfed but it's sufficient at taking out most swift swimmers. You kind of just keel over and die vs some of them though (namely Kingdra and Ludi, Manaphy also tanks one now) and it loses to obligatory Tornadus-T but it's better than nothing.
- Also loses to Tornadus-T but scarf claps everything else.
- Congrats, you now beat everything except Ludicolo and the possible electric (but given our choice of good electrics consists of Mega Manectric and Zeraora, and lord knows you're never dropping mega pert on rain, idt you have much thunder spam to worry about EDIT: I am an idiot we literally have both thundy forms). But honestly you do that to the entire meta, goated mon and probably the saviour of Alpha. who decided to give a mon with an actual attack stat and enough bulk to make Toxapex jealous Unaware like bruh tf. probably the same person that came up with the Ruin mons ngl
- AV only loses to Torn-T. Goated mon.
- Set up twice on some mon that can't touch you or stay in base and dodge the Mega Swampert Stone Edge and just go to town.
and of course,
- Cry if rocks goes up and you can't get them cleared but other than that it's their time to cry. What's Torn-T gonna do, miss hurricane in the sun?

There's a few others but some peeps are just plain down horrendous so gotta lend a helping hand. As you can see, if your rain is not packing Torn-T what are you even doing. As a side note I tried lucha but a) honestly how do you set up vs rain, b) it's surprisingly mid rn even behind screens and c) it's still a roll to OHKO Mega Swampert

Lmao. XD even.

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 312-367 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Genuinely can't wait for beta to come so we can quickban drizzle drought and half of the meta so we can finally usher in the era of Niadev Birdspam HO 2: Electric Boogaloo without getting counterswept by something that is somehow even cheesier. You know we're absolutely blast fried when Mega Mawile is mid and Kartana isn't even top 3 most absurd mons we have.

 

[LBN]

- Cry if rocks goes up and you can't get them cleared but other than that it's their time to cry. What's Torn-T gonna do, miss hurricane in the sun?

No it's clicking bleakwind storm and doing like 45 and you are going to cry.

Anyway, I think i'll step up and make some posts on who's the goat and who is getting punched in the throat. I'll mention some sleeper picks as well as very blatantly good picks to choose from. We have an incredible metagame and I expect a lot of fun (when there are actual games)

Need i even say it? God progress maker, most splashable mon in the tier and despite everything that's turbo broken here Torn-T stands out. Bleakwind storm is a hurricane with less power and more accuracy, so better hurricane (also doesnt miss in sun), Rillaboom check, Kartana check, god pivot, god removal it does it all. That being said, i genuinely don't think it's broken nor do i think it should be on the quickban list, atleast not right away. I kinda see it like i see Lando-T in SM OU, fantastic but not broken.

She who keeps us alive. Our best Chi-yu check is also here to check Weavile, Volcanion, Ting-Lu, Mega Zard x... Ok he checking a lot, too much infact. I've personally went back to the classic day 9 SM tech, icium z haze, as atleast right now Tapu Fini desperately loves a 2nd lease on life without clicking revival blessing.

None. None of these are holy. Each of these are sleeper batshit broke mons and lemme tell you right now, these are the ones. The ones to run train on the tier. Gyarados and Zard X click DD and now it kills everybody, fini included. Zard Y is a nuke that kills everybody bar Dragonite and The latis, Speaking of the latis dont get me started they doing their thing with no heatran no ferrothorn im sick. Swampert is free and so is pelipper so we already KNOW we not having fun. Mega Sableye stall could be fire ngl but i haven't seen the sauce yet. I have seen mega sableye offense w Volcarona and other threats who hate rocks. Venusaur never dies and chunks everythng, Mawile just kills everything, Medicham... Aegislash will be on everyteam so it'll be slept on alongside Mega Gallade, but they are able to easily cheat past their checks and make people lose. Mega Pinsir is outclassed for now but i'll say in advance he is NOT balanced.

Special shoutout going to mega manectric though, ground types aren't in high supply in terms of turbo brokens so you can probably get mileage out of him.

Who. Who was saying stall was dead i NEED to know. All the stall goons are here. We got mega sableye, we got skarm we got clef. New adds like Garganacl and Dondozo to go on aswell to make sure your opponent does not prosper. Stall is real and after Aiwla beat my ass just now w Garganacl i know these are very big fun hater mons.

This is hilarious man. So, so many brokens I haven't even covered yet. Just a SMALL list of the most notable brokens are here, there's even more. All of these are noteworthy, some more than others. Just, wow this tier is crazy.

 

[Arishem]

I hope everyone's been enjoying the new metagame so far. With this, I'd like to start sharing some thoughts on a few notable Pokemon that I've found to be especially useful for me when teambuilding.

Iron Hands @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 164 Atk / 252 Def / 92 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge
- Ice Punch

Recently did some exploring for BO teams and I'm honestly shocked people haven't mentioned this yet. Iron Hands is currently an incredible physical wall that's capable of handling some of the most broken wallbreakers and sweepers around, most notably beating the likes of Hawlucha, Kartana, Tera Normal Dragonite, Blaziken, TWave Melmetal, and Tera Flying Rillaboom, all offensive threats commonly stacked together on offensive teams that Iron Hands almost singlehandedly manages to cover in one slot. While also contributing significantly to its team's offensive prowess against bulkier threats with the help of Swords Dance and its beefy attacking options, such as against the increasingly common defensive cores surrounding Tornadus-Therian and Tapu Fini, both common Fighting-type checks which Iron Hands can easily break through with its Electric STAB, and using the aforementioned offensive targets alongside other necessary Pokemon such as Ting-Lu and Jirachi as setup can help easily make up for its low speed and lack of recovery when trying to pick spots against most teams. Overall, I feel that Iron Hands has the potential to be an amazing addition to the tier, and I hope it continues to be explored as the metagame stabilizes in the present.

---

Slowking-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Sludge Bomb
- Chilly Reception
- Slack Off
- Future Sight

Speaking of amazing additions, Galarian Slowking was given an interesting new move in Chilly Reception. This allows it to deviate from its more traditional Assault Vest sets and play a similar role to its Johto counterpart Slowking, in which it is now able to safely bring its offensively minded teammates on the field. It also crucially helps reset Pelipper's Rain while doing so, and I've found that to be especially important in easing the burden against the prominence of Mega Swampert and Manaphy. Having access to Tera types on top of this also greatly benefits Galarian Slowking's long-term survivability, as it now has the option to circumvent crucial weaknesses with options such as Tera Water, and dodge Pursuit attempts from Weavile on top of that.

 

[Meminger21]

Rain is broken

Among so many broken mons that we can now use I think rain stands out for its lack of checks and the fact that we have basically all of the rain mons from the previous generation, Pelipper, Greninja, Swampert-M, Kingdra, Tornadus, Zapdos, Manaphy, even Weavile. We also got some checks to rain, Rillaboom, Charizard-Y, Kyurem-B, Dragonite, Gastrodon, Fini, Kartana (?) and all of those pretty much lose to rain.
Only Charizard-Y and Gastrodon can really check rain and they require a very smart game plan, otherwise you'll also lose to rain.

This mon is incredibly stupid and almost impossible to check, literally nothing in the tier can safely take a rain boosted Hydro Pump and some stuff that can resist it, like Fini, lose 1v1 because of Tera. Gastrodon is the only thing can safely switch vs Greninja, but it needs to be fully Sp def, which can be bad vs Swampert-M, for example, and Greninja can also carry hp Grass, Gastrodon also doesn't have very good stats which make the mu vs anything else not very good, although it did learn rocks and spikes fsr. On top of all that, Greninja also has a really decent priority attack that after +1 from Battle Bond can ko on rain (with tera) stuff like Iron Valiant with only 2 hits and if you get more hits it might ko kartana and some other mons. And it also lives most priority attacks, such as Ice Shard, Sucker Punch, Espeed and after the Battle Bond boost it outspeeds everything in the tier.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1729166555-z9wh5v4rxpuzeykjcp3va0b8zhlvzjipw

This replay basically shows Greninja winning a game vs Kyurem-B and Fini. Greninja could 2hko both Fini and Kyurem-B and after tera moonblast couldn't ko it.

Manaphy is another mon that is completely stupid, it's by far the best wallbreaker in the tier (maybe even in the game) and completely destroys anyone that plays defensively vs it.

I think rain itself isn't that broken, but Greninja and Manaphy push it way too far.



This is the team I used to top the ladder (ignore the gxe, I was using some really bad teams before) and there's a lot that you can use on rain, Weavile, Zapdos and Kingdra are just some of the opitions.

Some other mons that I think are way too broken are Charizard-X, Annihilape and Zamazenta, these 3 in combination with Greninja and Manaphy are the ones that make this tier almost unplayable now. There are A LOT of other stuff that needs to be looked at, but I think these 5 should be quick banned whenever we can (probably after 1 month that the tier stops being Alpha)

 

[myself12]

I've been experimenting with the lati twins recently, and they are extremely good. Both of them have extremely good defensive utility, a great speed tier, and good offensive potential. Additionally, both are great in the rain matchup.


Latios can use a three attacks set to pressure opposing defensive cores with it's coverage moves. Since the pink blobs, ferrothorn, and heatran are not in this tier, it does a great job at beating stuff up.


Latias can use a calm mind set to become a great wincon. It can pick and choose it's attacks depending on what it wants to beat.

Here are two teams I used to hit top 50 on the ladder. The first team aims to overload the opponnet's psychic type check with either mtiasor glowking so the other can sweep. The second team aims to use mtios and offensive clef to pressure oppossing teams with their wide coverage.





Also, please ban pawmot. The ability to revive a fainted teammate is WAY too strong to allow.

 

[jawsome274]

Both rilla and zama were significantly nerfed idk why they aren't in italics

 

[N_Mareanie]

Chi-Yu recently got banned from National Dex OU, and is thus banned from National Dex UU as well. Now we just wait for them to ban Zamazenta and we have a somewhat playable tier, just ignore Volcarona and Greninja ​

 

[Velcroc]

Chi-Yu recently got banned from National Dex OU, and is thus banned from National Dex UU as well. Now we just wait for them to ban Zamazenta and we have a somewhat playable tier, just ignore Volcarona and Greninja​

Rip Bozo

 

[N_Mareanie]

I personally believe Rain as an archetype is heavily overrated and is not even close in terms of broken to Pokemon like Zamazenta and Volcarona.

We got a lot more Pokemon this generation to both offensively and defensively deal with Rain. A list can contain of the following

• Any type of Rillaboom will be an annoying matchup for Rain, since it revenges all of Mega Swampert / Manaphy / Greninja easily
• Choice Scarf Kartana outspeeds Adamant Mega Swampert under rain, as well as Greninja, and Choice Band sets are just generally hard to switch into as Tornadus-T hates being Knocked Off and Pelipper gets 2HKO'd
• Choice Scarf Serperior is arguably its best set right now with everything being so offensive, and its matchup vs Rain is simply incredible, being able to outspeed Mega Swampert under Rain
• Same as Serperior, Choice Scarf Meowscarada is a viable option in the current metagame due to its access to moves like Knock Off and Spikes, as well as U-turn and its STAB move Flower Trick
• While Gastrodon was present last generation, it got a significant increase in viability due to the fact it now has access to both Stealth Rock and Spikes. Now, it's not a hard counter to Mega Swampert or Energy Ball Manaphy, but simply being immune to Water creates a lot of mindgames for the opponent, as using up a turn and losing a turn of Rain is really bad for an archetype that needs to keep up its momentum
• While Tornadus-T is a great addition for the Rain archetype itself, the lack of Tapu Koko fitting on Rain builds can make the matchup against opposing Tornadus-T significantly harder. This is normally patched up with a Melmetal slot, but Knock Off still hurts and Nasty Plot Focus Blast variants do exist
• Basically just Drought / Snow / Sand but all these weathers being viable results in a lot of weather wars currently, and while Rain is still clearly the best one, it can just mindlessly set up Rain and expect it to magically stay up for 8 turns in every match
• Literally walls Mega Swampert super hard and has Unaware vs Tail Glow Manaphy and Battle Bond Greninja. though Energy Ball from the former can still be annoying
• Again, walls Mega Swampert. Loses to Manaphy and Greninja though
• This is a great pivot vs Manaphy and Pelipper, and it has Chilly Reception, a pivot move that sets up the Snow. Even though I lost the match, an example of using it vs Rain can be found in this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1736233341-3xdamsdhn4otr1nx92h4nuk5s6gllr4pw

There are also some old 'mons that do good vs Rain, such as Tangrowth and Amoonguss, and are not completely useless outside of it. Good play with Tera can also heavily work in your favor - for example, a well played Tera Grass Volcarona completely destroys Rain.


I personally think that Greninja is the sole Pokemon that needs to be banned if we need to nerf Rain - maybe Manaphy after, but we'll have to see. In short, Tera Water Battle Bond Greninja is stupid hard to defensively handle. After a Battle Bond boost, no Choice Scarfer bar Zamazenta can revenge kill this anymore, so bye Scarf Kartana as a consistent check to it. Not to mention the last slot is insanely flexible - I've seen all of Ice Beam, Spikes and Toxic Spikes, but I'm sure moves like U-turn and the like are great as well.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1736207628-dma4rvy3rj1nef7ju4inruzvegr8u5lpw <-- made dude forfeit because of Greninja bruh

tl;dr
Ban Greninja and not Drizzle / Damp Rock / Pelipper or whatever, Rain without Greninja should be way more than fine to handle in my opinion.

 

[Lupla]

I am curious about people's opinions on the meta right now, so here are some questions for y'all:
postes by lupla, the idea was from mareanie but he can't double post kek


1) Hyper Offense
2) Bulky Offense
3) Balance
4) Stall

1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)
2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
3. What are some fun pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles
4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?
5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use?
7. Favorite non-gen9 Pokemon to use?
8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in Natdex UU?
9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying Natdex UU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find Natdex UU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?

this post was shamelessly stolen from the OU thread

 

[myself12]

ok so like im gonna try to answer some of the questions.

Legal Disclaimer: I main fat teams so some of my responses may be slightly biased.

1) Bulky Offense

BO has a lot of tools this gen. There are a lot of offensive threats, as well as good defensive pivots avaliable. Haven't played much BO, but Mega Venusaur, Ting-Lu, and Zamazenta are all great.

2) Balance

There are a few offensive threats which make it hard for balance, but I think that the tier has a decent amount of defensive options (alomomola, skarmory, gastrodon, glowking, jirachi, tornadus) and offensive options that can work on balance(the lati twins, zamazenta)

3) Hyper Offense

HO is as inconsistent as ever, but it gain several great tools this gen, such as pawmot and annhilape. That's all I have to say (other than please BAN them both).

4) Stall

Unfortunately stall is last. While mega sableye, skarmory, clefable, and all the other goons are here, stall is hurt by a lack of blissey/chansey. #FreeBlissey



Rain is over rated. It's not that hard to answer. On the defensive side, skarmory, gastrodon, the lati twins, and mega altaria all gave good rain matchups. On the offensive side, rilla, kartana, serperior, and zard-y all do well.



This thing is criminally underrated. Use it. Great sweeper. Great defensive typing. Great defensive utility.

Ok so like I'd rate this tier a 4/10 because while it is moderately fun there are a lot of broken elements (I understand the council can't really do anything at this time) which make it annoying to play.