np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

[Crashman]

The whole 'Who is better, Blaziken or Gallade?' debate seems to be being brought up alot since the tier list changes in October. Most people would say Gallade however a few people would say Blaziken. I for one think that its purely situational on who is better. They both have thier pros and cons when compared to each other. Here are some of the ones I could think of.
Blaziken
-He isnt sucker punch/pursuit bait
-He's better at taking physical hits
-More resistances
-Can hit hard from both attacks
-He isnt stopped cold by Spiritomb
-He is immune to Will-O-Wisp
-He has a better secondary STAB
Gallade
-He is resistant to stealth rock
-He's better at taking special hits
-Less weaknesses
-Better physical attack
-He isnt stopped cold by Milotic
-Its easier for him to set up swords dance
-It has a better movepool (Close Combat, Leaf Blade etc.)
　
The thing is even if they were against each other in a 1v1 match it could go either way because of the fact that both of them are burdened with base 80 speed. It all would come down to the set they are running. If Blaziken is running a set which mostly revolves around special attacks (Eg. Mixken) Gallade wins. If theyre both running physical sets it depends on who goes first. I'm going to use the SD variants of each in this example. Assuming they use priority, a +2 LO Adamant Gallades shadow sneak does 54.0% to 63.6%a 4/0 Adamant Blaziken whereas a +2 LO Blazikens quick attack does 60.1% to 70.1% to 4/0 Gallade meaning its a comforable 2HKO for both of them and it all comes down to who wins the second speed tie. When they dont use priority a +2 close combat from Gallade and a +2 Flare Blitz from Blaziken will obviously KO the opponent but again it comes down to the speed tie, even with banded varients of the 2.
Overall its just down to what you have on your team and what you're against that determines which of the 2 are better.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Why are people comparing SD Blaziken to Gallade and pretending they're equal?
Gallade can set up on all sorts of Pokemon that Blaziken can't set up on, specifically offensive weak psychic and water types that hit from the special side, like Claydol, Uxie, Mespirit, Milotic, Slowbro, Quagsire. The only thing Blaziken can set up on that Gallade can't is Spiritomb. And sometimes Gallade can even set up on Spiritomb (with Lum Berry)

 

[Philip7086]

I threw together a team packed with the fresh UU Pokemon this round, and it's raping pretty hard so far. I can't imagine most of these Pokemon remaining in UU very long. On a side note, I can't seem to find the UU voting requirements anywhere. Can someone tell me what they are, or at least point me in the right direction please?

 

[tripe]

I threw together a team packed with the fresh UU Pokemon this round, and it's raping pretty hard so far. I can't imagine most of these Pokemon remaining in UU very long. On a side note, I can't seem to find the UU voting requirements anywhere. Can someone tell me what they are, or at least point me in the right direction please?

I believe it's 1600 rating and 50 deviation, which should be easy.

 

[THB]

I'd be hesitant to setup a Gallade on Claydol who can carry Equake/Explosion. And even on Mesprit/Uxie/Slowbro because of Twave.

Also, Blaziken isn't stopped cold by Milotic. Refer back to the Blaziken set I posted earlier:

Jolly
@Life Orb
Swords Dance
Flare Blitz
Low Kick
Rock Slide/Thunderpunch

If Blaziken SDs while the opponent switches to Milotic, a +2 Low Kick does 84-100% to a max/max Milotic, OHKOing with rocks 79% of the time. Thunderpunch does roughly the same. I've been running Thunderpunch over Rock Slide recently because I haven't seen much Altaria, most likely since Roserade is gone, and I needed damage against the more common Slowbro and Blastoise. A +2 Tpunch does 69-81% to a max/max Slowbro and 80-94% on a max/max Blastoise.

As for Gallade vs Blaziken, in my experience Blaziken has been easier to use because he has more opportunity to switch in. He gets more free switches with WoW immunity and 6 resistances.

Usually my Gallade is just hanging out waiting to either come in for a revenge kill or on a Milotic, who I'd rather use as setup bait for Leafeon or Venusaur anyway.

 

[whistle]

low kick has the same effective base power as thunderpunch on milotic (100*1.5 = 75*2)

also is it just me or are all milotics running toxic

 

[Crashman]

Why are people comparing SD Blaziken to Gallade and pretending they're equal?
Gallade can set up on all sorts of Pokemon that Blaziken can't set up on, specifically offensive weak psychic and water types that hit from the special side, like Claydol, Uxie, Mespirit, Milotic, Slowbro, Quagsire. The only thing Blaziken can set up on that Gallade can't is Spiritomb. And sometimes Gallade can even set up on Spiritomb (with Lum Berry)

Blaziken has a multitude of resistances that he is able to set up on as well as being able to take hits better from the physical side.

I'd be hesitant to setup a Gallade on Claydol who can carry Equake/Explosion. And even on Mesprit/Uxie/Slowbro because of Twave.

Also, Blaziken isn't stopped cold by Milotic. Refer back to the Blaziken set I posted earlier:

Jolly
@Life Orb
Swords Dance
Flare Blitz
Low Kick
Rock Slide/Thunderpunch

If Blaziken SDs while the opponent switches to Milotic, a +2 Low Kick does 84-100% to a max/max Milotic, OHKOing with rocks 79% of the time. Thunderpunch does roughly the same. I've been running Thunderpunch over Rock Slide recently because I haven't seen much Altaria, most likely since Roserade is gone, and I needed damage against the more common Slowbro and Blastoise. A +2 Tpunch does 69-81% to a max/max Slowbro and 80-94% on a max/max Blastoise.

As for Gallade vs Blaziken, in my experience Blaziken has been easier to use because he has more opportunity to switch in. He gets more free switches with WoW immunity and 6 resistances.

Usually my Gallade is just hanging out waiting to either come in for a revenge kill or on a Milotic, who I'd rather use as setup bait for Leafeon or Venusaur anyway.

Thats an interesting Blaziken set and I can see why it is easy to take out Milotic with it. It does have a problem with lighter pokemon that are weak to fighting and can set up on it though however its improbable that Pokemon like that would switch in on Blaziken after a SD anyway

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Just about the only defensive Pokemon I can think of that Blaziken can reliably set up on are Spiritomb and Umbreon. Chansey is semi-reliable I guess, but either status will cut short Blaziken's sweep, and you can't even threaten the straight OHKO without Superpower. Some Registeel too I guess, but most carry EQ now. Gallade on the other hand can reliably set up on many more.

There's also the fact that Blaziken is much more likely to be OHKO'd (or close to it) by many of its checks. Physical STAB Flying and Ghost moves are very rare amongst defensive Pokes (Spiritomb's Shadow Sneak is the only common one, which is fairly weak) so Gallade is less at risk of this, whereas Water, Ground and even Psychic moves can be fairly common. Even Air Slash from the odd SubRoar Moltres will OHKO Blaziken but not necessarily OHKO Gallade.

 

[Abu Thabet]

Alakazam is too strong for UU, not to mention the suspects to drop to NU I disagree with some of the ideas but defintly back the roserade and Yanmega push up the ladder.

 

[zarator]

I really cannot understand all this hype about Froslass. Ok, it is a good lead, but I fail to see how it can be considered so much better than others. The main argument I see here is "It grants you one layer of Spikes". While I will not question that a well played Froslass actually has this capability, it has it both in UU and in OU, and I fail to see why it is ok (probably even subpar) in OU and oh-so-broken in UU.

Let's analyze first the "It grants you one layer of Spikes thing". Basically, unless I'm wrong (correct me if so), it means that, thanks to the high speed and Focus Sash, unless it gets Taunted by something faster, Froslass will put the Spikes down no matter what. More precisely, it means that, unless you lead with something like Ambipom, Alakazam, Persian or Electrode and Taunt right away, Froslass will lay those Spikes. Amazing. And isn't it true that, unless Azelf or Aerodactyl Taunt right away, Froslass is guaranteed to lay those Spikes in OU too? It may be true that, if Ambipom, Alakazam and the others Taunt and get attacked by Ice Beam/Shadow Ball, they could find themselves in deep trouble. But doesn't hold the same for Azelf (Shadow Ball) and Aerodactyl (Ice Beam)? The only lead in OU which actually shuts down Froslass and is absent in UU I can think of is Scarf Jirachi and it's Iron Head's 60% flinch chance.

Now, it is true that Froslass fares in UU far better than it could in OU, but the reason it is called broken is total bullshit, really. Froslass can grant a layer of Spikes in UU as well as it can in OU, and much like Aerodactyl can grant a layer of Stealth Rock no matter what. Moreover, every decent Spiker can find their way to lay those Spikes without much trouble, both in OU and in UU. The only good thing about Froslass is the ability to lay them early in the game and block Rapid Spin with its Ghost type. But it is not enough at all to declare it BL. Not certainly on par with Gallade, Alakazam and especially Raikou.

If there is a lead which centralizes UU, I think it is Alakazam. It can grant both Screens thanks to Inner Focus preventing flinch from Fake Out, and it will against almost everything bar Spiritomb (there may be other answers, but as of now I cannot think of any viable against something else besides Alakazam). And with a metagame which offers fierce setup sweepers like Gallade and Raikou, it is an ability as threatening as (if not more than) Spikes support, especially right at the start of the match.

 

[Heysup]

Let's analyze first the "It grants you one layer of Spikes thing". Basically, unless I'm wrong (correct me if so), it means that, thanks to the high speed and Focus Sash, unless it gets Taunted by something faster, Froslass will put the Spikes down no matter what. More precisely, it means that, unless you lead with something like Ambipom, Alakazam, Persian or Electrode and Taunt right away, Froslass will lay those Spikes. Amazing. And isn't it true that, unless Azelf or Aerodactyl Taunt right away, Froslass is guaranteed to lay those Spikes in OU too? It may be true that, if Ambipom, Alakazam and the others Taunt and get attacked by Ice Beam/Shadow Ball, they could find themselves in deep trouble. But doesn't hold the same for Azelf (Shadow Ball) and Aerodactyl (Ice Beam)? The only lead in OU which actually shuts down Froslass and is absent in UU I can think of is Scarf Jirachi and it's Iron Head's 60% flinch chance.

You obviously haven't used Froslass, or played against a good user. Firstly, if it finds itself against one of those Taunters, it can simply switch out. Easy. Ambipom should always run Pursuit over Taunt for that reason.

Second, the leads in OU completely and utterly destroy Froslass. You have Pokemon like Infernape, Metagross, Jirachi, Mamoswine, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Azelph....in fact, no common leads actually lose to Froslass besides possibly Roserade (who can probably survive 2 Ice Beams with some investment).

In UU, Froslass beats (beat meaning, gets at least a layer of Spikes and Destiny Bond, or two layers of Spikes) almost EVERY common lead. If you look at the stats before Froslass was here, you can see that clearly Froslass forces every team that was using those leads to either use a Froslass of their own or use a stupid over-centralized lead that would fail in every other situation (yes I know "ambipom is gud", but not every team can fit it in / should have to use it). It actually effects the metagame, unlike in OU.

Now, it is true that Froslass fares in UU far better than it could in OU, but the reason it is called broken is total bullshit, really. Froslass can grant a layer of Spikes in UU as well as it can in OU, and much like Aerodactyl can grant a layer of Stealth Rock no matter what. Moreover, every decent Spiker can find their way to lay those Spikes without much trouble, both in OU and in UU. The only good thing about Froslass is the ability to lay them early in the game and block Rapid Spin with its Ghost type.

Obviously it can't. I just explained that above. In UU Froslass is the only "decent" Spiker, and barely anything can stop it because of its speed and Ghost-typing. The ability to Spike early game and block Rapid Spin for itself is being severely underestimated. Do you realize how absurdly good that is? Not to mention you are forgetting that it beats almost every Spinner. Donphan? KO it with Ice Beam, easy. Hitmontop? Taunt its Foresight, then lol as it has to switch out and the next Pokemon has to take 37.5% just for switching out. Spikes are way to easy to keep up in this metagame, there is no Forry with amazing defenses and typing able to set up SR and Rapid Spin, or Starmie who is lightning fast and hits like a mach truck.

But it is not enough at all to declare it BL. Not certainly on par with Gallade, Alakazam and especially Raikou.

Wtf is Alakazam doing in there? Alakazam is terribly weak compared to Gallade, Raikou, and Froslass. And even Rhyperior.

If there is a lead which centralizes UU, I think it is Alakazam.

This just shows complete lack of understanding and experience in the UU metagame. Alakazam is good, but it isn't anywhere near common enough to "over-centralize" the metagame, or even come close to being broken / BL. It gets absolutely ripped apart by priority, or just any strong move. DS alakazam is especially weak to Pokemon like SD Gallade, who can just Swords Dance and OHKO it with Shadow Sneak through Reflect before it can Encore.

Alakazam will have a time to shine, just not yet.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Second, the leads in OU completely and utterly destroy Froslass. You have Pokemon like Infernape, Metagross, Jirachi, Mamoswine, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Azelph....in fact, no common leads actually lose to Froslass besides possibly Roserade (who can probably survive 2 Ice Beams with some investment).

What does Infernape do to stop Froslass? But the others can beat her obviously.

In UU, Froslass beat (beat meaning, gets at least a layer of Spikes and Destiny Bond, or two layers of Spikes) almost EVERY common lead. If you look at the stats before Froslass was here, you can see that clearly Froslass forces every team that was using those leads to either use a Froslass of their own or use a stupid over-centralized lead that would fail in every other situation (yes I know "ambipom is gud", but not every team can fit it in / should have to use it). It actually effects the metagame, unlike in OU.

The stats before Froslass are completely irrelevant to any discussion on Froslass herself. Besides, "stupid" and "over-centralized" leads are simply not used. Nobody uses Scarf Iron Head Tauros / Arcanine / Entei / Rampardos or whatever similar build. The leads that can beat Froslass that are used are much more useful than you give them credit for.

And once again, affecting the metagame =/= broken.

Not to mention you are forgetting that it beats almost every Spinner. Donphan? KO it with Ice Beam, easy. Hitmontop? Taunt its Foresight, then lol as it has to switch out and the next Pokemon has to take 37.5% just for switching out. Spikes are way to easy to keep up in this metagame, there is no Forry with amazing defenses and typing able to set up SR and Rapid Spin, or Starmie who is lightning fast and hits like a mach truck.

Another irrelevant point, and I've mentioned this before so you really should know better than this. Spinners will NOT be switching into Froslass, it will be the other way round if anything.

Also, I am of the opinion that spinning is a lot easier in this metagame than you're claiming. And my opinion is equally valid.

 

[M BLADE]

Now i'm more on a "test" stage rather than making a real team. I'm putting 6 pokes that i want to test in UU to see how good it is in UU.
My impressions about some NU pokes in NU:

Exeggutor: Hits. Fucking. Hard. Tied with Moltres as the most powerful special attack in UU, his Leaf Storm hurts. You can work around his crap speed(how about Trick Room only for itself?) Sleep Powder makes things easier. If you can bring this one without much problems(like against SD Venusaur or CB Azumarill os something like that) expect to bring one or two pokes down.
If you consider the other STAB move of Exeggutor and Moltres(Psychic and Air Slash respectively) then Exeggutor is the top special threat in UU power wise.

Porygon 2: Versatile. Don't rely on Trace like you do in OU. Porygon 2 won't work that way.
I used a TrickSpecs lead. It's nice since no one expects Porygon 2 to do that much damage.
With Discharge you can paralize some fast leads(with luck Froslass... Ambipom too since with the right spread Fake Out+ Return won't KO Porygon 2). Anti-leads like Cloyster, Omastar, Donphan etc are all OHKOed by Porygon 2. Anything trying to Trick me will get frustated.
But he's valuable even if isn't a lead. Versatility is his mid name.
The tank set, Charge Beam set, Choiced sets, Sharpen sets...

Hitmonchan: Outclassed? On most sets, yes. So you just need to work around to get the best of this poke.
How? Well, first: what moves he can learn that the other Hitmons can't?
The elemental punches and Drain Punch... hey, Drain Punch? STAB and boosted by Iron Fist? There you go. The set i use: Bulk Up/Drain Punch/Thunder Punch/Mach Punch.
Great sp.def to help getting Bulk Ups too. The only other poke that gets this set is Gallade. Outclassed? NO. Mach Punch is there for Hitmonchan... boosted by Iron Fist too. Nice
See? I can make a unique Hitmonchan that isn't outclassed by anyone. So you can work around too.

Relicanth: outclassed by Aggron in CB, Rock Polish, tankish sets... but it can make a nice lead. Yawn and Stealth Rock plays like Uxie, but Head Smash means he hits HARD, unlike Uxie. And he's light and only 2 X weak to Fighting. This means Low Kick Ambipom won't work against Relicanth(Aggron would be murdered if if tries to be a lead). Waterfall and Head Smash has almost perfect coverage. Both STAB.

 

[zarator]

You obviously haven't used Froslass, or played against a good user. Firstly, if it finds itself against one of those Taunters, it can simply switch out. Easy. Ambipom should always run Pursuit over Taunt for that reason.

The same holds true in OU. And before you go out of you way, I have played against both Froslass and good players using Froslass, so I know what I'm talking about.

Second, the leads in OU completely and utterly destroy Froslass. You have Pokemon like Infernape, Metagross, Jirachi, Mamoswine, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Azelph....in fact, no common leads actually lose to Froslass besides possibly Roserade (who can probably survive 2 Ice Beams with some investment).

They destroy it, yes, but Froslass is more than capable of grant that layer of Spikes against most of those leads. Or switch out of predicted Taunts just like you outlined above. I'm not saying Froslass is as good in UU as it is in OU, but you claim she is broken for things she can do almost equally well in OU.

In UU, Froslass beat (beat meaning, gets at least a layer of Spikes and Destiny Bond, or two layers of Spikes) almost EVERY common lead. If you look at the stats before Froslass was here, you can see that clearly Froslass forces every team that was using those leads to either use a Froslass of their own or use a stupid over-centralized lead that would fail in every other situation (yes I know "ambipom is gud", but not every team can fit it in / should have to use it). It actually effects the metagame, unlike in OU.

Destiny Bond is neuterized by U-turn, first of all. Secondly, if you think things like Spiritomb are overcentralized, you are wrong. Spiritomb does a number also to Ambipom and Alakazam, which are 2 very common leads at the moment. So, these kind of leads are absolutely not useless against non-Froslass leads if built well. Ok, Froslass affects heavily their usage, but just imagine if we took out of OU Azelf and then put it back in (supposing people never played against Azelf in OU). It would affect things heavily, because it is a very good lead. Does this makes Azelf broken? Absolutely not.

Obviously it can't. I just explained that above. In UU Froslass is the only "decent" Spiker, and barely anything can stop it because of its speed and Ghost-typing. The ability to Spike early game and block Rapid Spin for itself is being severely underestimated. Do you realize how absurdly good that is? Not to mention you are forgetting that it beats almost every Spinner. Donphan? KO it with Ice Beam, easy. Hitmontop? Taunt its Foresight, then lol as it has to switch out and the next Pokemon has to take 37.5% just for switching out. Spikes are way to easy to keep up in this metagame, there is no Forry with amazing defenses and typing able to set up SR and Rapid Spin, or Starmie who is lightning fast and hits like a mach truck.

First of all, Rotom-H beats every spinner in OU besides Starmie. And Froslass has nowhere the durability yielded by Rotom in OU. 70/70/70 isn't that great, especially when you do not invest in them with EVs. But most importantly, Froslass does not have the gazillon of resistance that Rotom appliances can boost. Immunity to Normal and Fighting and resistance to Ice, Bug and Poison is good and all, but weakness to Fire, Dark, Steel, Ghost and Rock is a bit more than Rotom's Ghost and Dark (without even thinking to all the resistances of Ghost/Electric WITH Levitate). The fact is, Froslass cannot afford to switch into anything besides the five types listed above, and even about the Rapid Spinners, it cannot afford to switch into Donphan's Earthquake, it cannot withstand Hitmontop's Tech Bullet Punch and so on.

Rotom is so good at blocking Rapid Spin because the only spinner it really has to worry about switching in is Starmie (Forretress' Payback is a risky move in itself seeing how many thing can switch into it for free). Froslass, on the contrary, rely a lot on prediction at it's Spin blocking job. It would be as if I used Gengar as my OU Spinblocker (ok, Gengar is a bit weaker defensively, but not so much).

Wtf is Alakazam doing in there? Alakazam is terribly weak compared to Gallade, Raikou, and Froslass. And even Rhyperior.

This just shows complete lack of understanding and experience in the UU metagame. Alakazam is good, but it isn't anywhere near common enough to "over-centralize" the metagame, or even come close to being broken / BL. It gets absolutely ripped apart by priority, or just any strong move. DS alakazam is especially weak to Pokemon like SD Gallade, who can just Swords Dance and OHKO it with Shadow Sneak through Reflect before it can Encore.

Alakazam will have a time to shine, just not yet.

First of all, do not put words into my mouth. I never said Alakazam is broken. I said, rather, that Alakazam is a better lead thatn Froslass, unless you absolutely need Spikes support that early in the game. Alakazam is raped by priority? Froslass is too. Ok, it is immune to Fighting (which Alakazam resists anyway), and it can play a bit with Sucker Punch (Alakazam can too with Substitute BTW), but that's it. The only real advantage Froslass may have is the resistance to Ice Shard, but it cannot even afford to switch into its two main users (Donphan and Cloyster), which incidentally also carry Rapid Spin. Also, unless you lead with Gallade, Alakazam can always Taunt your SD attempt behind the Reflect. And don't bitch about prediction, because everything you said so far about Froslass implies a good amount of prediction on the Froslass user side (especially about blocking Rapid Spin).

Alakazam is already shining a lot, and its usage will prove it undeniably. I would not be surprised if Froslass gets less usage than Alakazam.

 

[Heysup]

What does Infernape do to stop Froslass? But the others can beat her obviously.

U-turn ignores Destiny Bond unless I'm mistaken (possibility).

The stats before Froslass are completely irrelevant to any discussion on Froslass herself. Besides, "stupid" and "over-centralized" leads are simply not used. Nobody uses Scarf Iron Head Tauros / Arcanine / Entei / Rampardos or whatever similar build. The leads that can beat Froslass that are used are much more useful than you give them credit for.

And once again, affecting the metagame =/= broken.

They are leads that severely hinder people's teams. I figured this out just recently; leads are in fact the reason that it is so hard to build a remotely consistent team in this metagame. And by consistent I don't mean "can win most matches on the latter against worse players", I mean "I can win most matches against above average players". It's basically 5 Pokemon versus 5 Pokemon to be honest. Lead Spiritomb is terribly frail for example, it won't do shit to something like Gallade if it comes in on any attack minus Close Combat or Psycho Cut. And Spiritomb is supposed to counter Gallade. I'll admit things like Cloyster are decent leads, but they are really hard to build a team around, especially when Cloyster will be taking like 50% when it switches in.

And you are correct, affecting the metagame =/= broken. However, in common battle conditions, Frolsass can give Pokemon the ability to sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little / no effort. I'm sure you agree, that makes Froslass broken.

The same holds true in OU. And before you go out of you way, I have played against both Froslass and good players using Froslass, so I know what I'm talking about.

Yea, but in OU people don't have to mess with their team in order to get a good lead. Trust me, switching into an Alakazam, Electrode, or Persian is much much much easier than switching into Azelf or Aerodactyl. I'm not even including the other leads that "beat" Froslass, such as Metagross, Mamoswine, and Tyranitar. Have fun switching into those.

They destroy it, yes, but Froslass is more than capable of grant that layer of Spikes against most of those leads. Or switch out of predicted Taunts just like you outlined above. I'm not saying Froslass is as good in UU as it is in OU, but you claim she is broken for things she can do almost equally well in OU.

The huge flaw in your arguments is that you are missing what Froslass can actually do. Froslass can set up a layer AND KO the opponent against 95% of commonly used Pokemon in UU. The fact that it can only set up one Layer at best in OU makes it substantially worse than in UU.

No wonder you don't see it as broken when you only think of it as an "automatic 1 layer of spikes", when it can do so much more.

Destiny Bond is neuterized by U-turn, first of all. Secondly, if you think things like Spiritomb are overcentralized, you are wrong. Spiritomb does a number also to Ambipom and Alakazam, which are 2 very common leads at the moment. So, these kind of leads are absolutely not useless against non-Froslass leads if built well. Ok, Froslass affects heavily their usage, but just imagine if we took out of OU Azelf and then put it back in (supposing people never played against Azelf in OU). It would affect things heavily, because it is a very good lead. Does this makes Azelf broken? Absolutely not.

Spiritomb doesn't do shit against most leads, obviously minus defensively weak Froslass, Ambipom, and Alakazam. Froslass can be EV'd to be 5HKOed by Spiritomb actually as well.

Not to mention Spiritomb is so so shitty with Atk EVs needed to 2HKO min/min Froslass, it gets totally fucked by every threat it is supposed to counter.

First of all, Rotom-H beats every spinner in OU besides Starmie. And Froslass has nowhere the durability yielded by Rotom in OU. 70/70/70 isn't that great, especially when you do not invest in them with EVs. But most importantly, Froslass does not have the gazillon of resistance that Rotom appliances can boost. Immunity to Normal and Fighting and resistance to Ice, Bug and Poison is good and all, but weakness to Fire, Dark, Steel, Ghost and Rock is a bit more than Rotom's Ghost and Dark (without even thinking to all the resistances of Ghost/Electric WITH Levitate). The fact is, Froslass cannot afford to switch into anything besides the five types listed above, and even about the Rapid Spinners, it cannot afford to switch into Donphan's Earthquake, it cannot withstand Hitmontop's Tech Bullet Punch and so on.

Firstly, it can easily switch into Donphan's EQ with the right EVs (252 hp / 224 defense):

372 Atk vs 232 Def & 344 HP (100 Base Power): 172 - 204 (50.00% - 59.30%)

And it can even switch in without proper EVs (min/min), because stealth rock won't be up if Donphan is just coming out to attack:

372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (100 Base Power): 228 - 268 (81.14% - 95.37%)

While Froslass can just OHKO it:

259 Atk vs 156 Def & 368 HP (95 Base Power): 338 - 402 (91.85% - 109.24%)

Also, you are forgetting a major factor in OU.

One word: Pursuit. UU has nowhere near as effective Pursuiters as OU. Yes, Honchkrow is good, but it is OHKOed by Ice Beam because its so slow, where as Scizor and Tyranitar make up for their speed with insane bulk.

Froslass is not a main spin blocker, the point is you can't spin when Froslass is in play. Froslass + another Ghost is nearly impossible to spin against.

Rotom is so good at blocking Rapid Spin because the only spinner it really has to worry about switching in is Starmie (Forretress' Payback is a risky move in itself seeing how many thing can switch into it for free). Froslass, on the contrary, rely a lot on prediction at it's Spin blocking job. It would be as if I used Gengar as my OU Spinblocker (ok, Gengar is a bit weaker defensively, but not so much).

I don't feel the need to address your final paragraph as its filled with clearly flawed arguments.

 

[Lee]

And it can even switch in without proper EVs (min/min), because stealth rock won't be up if Donphan is just coming out to attack:

372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (100 Base Power): 228 - 268 (81.14% - 95.37%)

372 Atk Ice Shard deals 31 - 36 to a min Def Froslass so even assuming you roll minimum damage twice, Froslass would still lose 228 + 31 = 259/282 HP by switching into Donphan. Average damage both times is enough to OHKO 4/0 Froslass (barely).

Your defensive variant can be 2HKO'd and can't OHKO Donphan in return - it should be obvious to a savvy opponent that a Froslass who takes Earthquake so well isn't going to have sufficient SpA investment to take him down in one hit without D-Bond. So really, neither sets can switch into Donphans Earthquake and expect to come out smelling of roses. And that's without me even questioning the cringeworthy justification for Stealth Rocks absence with 'because stealth rock won't be up if Donphan is just coming out to attack.'

Froslass can set up a layer AND KO the opponent against 95% of commonly used Pokemon in UU.

Ignoring your obviously arbitrary 95% figure it should be noted Azelf in OU brings a similar promise with Spikes/Destiny Bond exchanged for the generally superior Stealth Rock/Explosion. Of course, things rarely work out that well for Azelf because it's the most common lead and people make sure they're prepared for it - why can't they do the same for Froslass?

Just to clarify, I have no opinion on Froslass just yet as I've only been playing UU for a few days now but your arguments are doing little to sway me because you're creating ideal situations for Froslass in each point you make.

- Of course Froslass is going to get Spikes down if your lead loses horribly to her.

- Sure she can function as an emergency spin blocker if you outpredict your opponents every move and only come in on Rapid Spins and Taunt every Foresight.

- I don't doubt that she does beat Hitmontop if Hitmontop doesn't use Bullet Punch (40.9%), Stone Edge (18.8%) or Pursuit (14.3%).

- And yeah, Froslass can just about come in on Donphans Earthquake if you use Max HP and almost Max Def AND make sure Stealth Rock isn't on the field.

But all of these scenarios can and often will have a very different outcome on the battlefield as I'm sure you're well aware and for that reason they come across very awkwardly as justification for the banishment of a Pokemon.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

They are leads that severely hinder people's teams. I figured this out just recently; leads are in fact the reason that it is so hard to build a remotely consistent team in this metagame. And by consistent I don't mean "can win most matches on the latter against worse players", I mean "I can win most matches against above average players". It's basically 5 Pokemon versus 5 Pokemon to be honest. Lead Spiritomb is terribly frail for example, it won't do shit to something like Gallade if it comes in on any attack minus Close Combat or Psycho Cut. And Spiritomb is supposed to counter Gallade. I'll admit things like Cloyster are decent leads, but they are really hard to build a team around, especially when Cloyster will be taking like 50% when it switches in.

They are leads that don't severely hinder people's teams.

Look, I just made a statement that is completely contradictory to yours, how could this be? Because both of them are simply two different opinions based on our own experiences. You're not going to get anywhere trying to convince me (and others of a similar stance) if what you deem is a fact supporting your argument is in fact nothing more than an opinion I completely disagree with.

And Spiritomb can very easily run a setup that 2HKOs standard lead Froslass as well as comfortably survive a +2 LO Stone Edge from Gallade, his strongest option. That's all that matters, and is better in fact because then 'Tomb can hit back harder with Shadow Sneak. Besides, Spiritomb cannot reliably counter Gallade anyway, so your point is moot.

And you are correct, affecting the metagame =/= broken. However, in common battle conditions, Frolsass can give Pokemon the ability to sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little / no effort. I'm sure you agree, that makes Froslass broken.

Froslass cannot give Pokemon the ability to easily sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little / no effort.

Once again, the mystery of two 'supposed' facts that completely contradict each other.

I don't feel the need to address your final paragraph as its filled with clearly flawed arguments.

If I agreed with your mentality here, then I wouldn't feel the need to address your points either. Confused? Well let me help you out:

Froslass can switch in on anything but Foresight from Hitmontop, and practically anything from Donphan (especially with the proslass/bulky EVs).

If Froslass is the one putting the Spikes down to begin with, what the hell makes it a given that she is in tip-top shape after doing so? In my experience, Froslass never gets Spikes up for free, and in fact is often left at 1 HP after one layer. The assumption that Froslass can easily get Spikes up while taking little to no damage is flawed and way too convenient. it simply doesn't happen very often in practice.

Once Froslass is in, then it what I just applies. My argument isn't "irrelevent" just because you say so.

I didn't just "say so", I gave my reasoning as to why. Your argument doesn't become any more relevant the more you keep repeatedly spouting it while putting your fingers in your ears.

It would be if you backed your opinion up with facts, and didn't just say "my opinion is valid". For example, I said Spinning is harder because:

1) Froslass, a Spiker, blocks spin for itself.
a) Froslass can OHKO Donphan with Ice Beam, or survive multiple Earthquakes with the right EVs.
b) Froslass can Taunt Hitmontop's Foresight.
c) Cloyster takes 50% when it comes in with Spikes and SR up, making it hard to spin at all.

2) So many viable Ghosts. With Spiritomb's Gallade checking ability, Mismagius' awesome sweeping capabilities and immunities, and Rotom's decent defenses, awesome typing, and sweeping capabilities, it isn't hard to even fit two ghosts onto your team.

3) The offensive nature of Pokemon in this metagame. Try spinning when Pokemon are sending 120 BP STAB attacks at you off of 383 Atk (Honchkrow and Gallade, for example).

Where is your reasoning?

Backing up an opinion with facts? That doesn't make any sense. An opinion is an opinion because it is subjective; all the reasoning in the world won't turn it into a fact.

Cloyster takes 50% upon coming in? That's assuming SR and all three layers of Spikes are down, which is clearly so easy to do. It is a pointless statement because it already assumes far more than what you're trying to justify.

I already know what the Ghosts in UU can do thank you very much, and I also know that they're far from indestructible.

And again, if Froslass is broken because it makes offense too easy, somebody better go and demonstrate it, because I have seen nothing of the sort so far.

Spiritomb doesn't do shit against most leads, obviously minus defensively weak Froslass, Ambipom, and Alakazam.

Not to mention Spiritomb is so so shitty with Atk EVs needed to 2HKO min/min Froslass, it gets totally fucked by every threat it is supposed to counter.

Again, not a fact, merely your opinion. And a dubious one at that.

Firstly, it can easily switch into Donphan's EQ with the right EVs (252 hp / 224 defense):

372 Atk vs 232 Def & 344 HP (100 Base Power): 172 - 204 (50.00% - 59.30%)

And it can even switch in without proper EVs (min/min), because stealth rock won't be up if Donphan is just coming out to attack:

372 Atk vs 176 Def & 281 HP (100 Base Power): 228 - 268 (81.14% - 95.37%)

While Froslass can just OHKO it:

259 Atk vs 156 Def & 368 HP (95 Base Power): 338 - 402 (91.85% - 109.24%)

So Froslass is running 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, and 224 Defense? That's 218 EVs more than the maximum allocation, and you haven't even touched the Speed yet, one of Froslass' most prized assets. I have bolded a key word here so that you can't get out of it by saying "I meant two separate spreads". You can't assume two separate sets in one argument, it is too convenient. And that is enough reason why this is yet another flawed argument. Don't even get me started on the idea that Donphan has to be the team's SR user just because it can learn it.

Now don't get me wrong, Froslass is definitely a Pokemon that is hanging near the edge of BL. However, your arguments are so pathetic and poorly thought out right now that you must be deluded if you think that they are going to convince me that Froslass actually does make it over the edge. And remember, the burden of proof is always on the anti-Froslass side (i.e. people like you), not the neutral or pro-Froslass side. If you're going to continue with the same shitty arguments over and over again and keep pretending that they are good, then there really is no reason to keep responding to you as it would be a complete and utter waste of time.

 

[Heysup]

372 Atk Ice Shard deals 31 - 36 to a min Def Froslass so even assuming you roll minimum damage twice, Froslass would still lose 228 + 31 = 259/282 HP by switching into Donphan. Average damage both times is enough to OHKO 4/0 Froslass (barely).

Donphan doesn't always run Ice Shard, but if you're going to be technical here I might as well just say that it won't even matter if it has Ice Shard as Earthquake will only do (73.67% - 86.83%) maximum damage with an Impish nature, which is Donphan's most used nature. Not to mention, only 43% of Donphan run Max Attack. I think it would only be fair to give Froslass the win there.

Your defensive variant can be 2HKO'd and can't OHKO Donphan in return - it should be obvious to a savvy opponent that a Froslass who takes Earthquake so well isn't going to have sufficient SpA investment to take him down in one hit without D-Bond. So really, neither sets can switch into Donphans Earthquake and expect to come out smelling of roses. And that's without me even questioning the cringeworthy justification for Stealth Rocks absence with 'because stealth rock won't be up if Donphan is just coming out to attack.'

Again, being technical most Donphan can't even 2HKO this Froslass because of the lack of max attack + nature. But anyway Froslass can OHKO Donphan with spike damage. Before you say "don't assume Spikes are on the field", answer this question "if there were no Spikes on the field, what is Donphan trying to spin? And with Froslass out Spikes will definitely be on the field if you haven't managed to spin them away (which I'm arguing is harder to do that most people think).

Ignoring your obviously arbitrary 95% figure it should be noted Azelf in OU brings a similar promise with Spikes/Destiny Bond exchanged for the generally superior Stealth Rock/Explosion. Of course, things rarely work out that well for Azelf because it's the most common lead and people make sure they're prepared for it - why can't they do the same for Froslass?

Spikes are actually quite superior to Stealth Rock on a lead in UU, because honestly every other defensive Pokemon can learn Stealth Rock. Explosion and Destiny Bond are also debatable, because while Explosion would help a ton, Destiny Bond helps Froslass force the opponent out and gets more spikes up.

It is also an option to just not use Destiny Bond and use Rest, Pain Split, Protect, Light Screen, etc.

Just to clarify, I have no opinion on Froslass just yet as I've only been playing UU for a few days now but your arguments are doing little to sway me because you're creating ideal situations for Froslass in each point you make.

Just because they are ideal, does not mean they aren't common. In fact that's my point, these situations are quite common, and Froslass has very little to lose.

- Of course Froslass is going to get Spikes down if your lead loses horribly to her.

We're sort of passed this, but the main argument I'm making is "why should you be forced to use leads X, Y, and Z, which do very little for your team just because you don't want to lose the match right away from 3 layers of Spikes and any sort of offense / stall."

- Sure she can function as an emergency spin blocker if you outpredict your opponents every move and only come in on Rapid Spins and Taunt every Foresight.

You don't need to outpredict every move. You can always switch into Donphan, and you can almost always switch into Rapid Spin. Hitmontop can't do anything besides Foresight versus Froslass, otherwise I wouldn't be making this argument.

- I don't doubt that she does beat Hitmontop if Hitmontop doesn't use Bullet Punch (40.9%), Stone Edge (18.8%) or Pursuit (14.3%).

It doesn't. It would be seriously stupid for Hitmontop to run any of those attacks (minus Pursuit) on the Rapid Spin set. Because if you do, you should really be using Donphan. Those stats are from the "Technitop set". As ridiculous as this may sound, those stats are really irrelevant to this argument, because they don't exist on the set (standard Rapid Spin set is Foresight / Rapid Spin / Close Combat / [Rest / Sucker Punch], btw).

- And yeah, Froslass can just about come in on Donphans Earthquake if you use Max HP and almost Max Def AND make sure Stealth Rock isn't on the field.

How would Stealth Rock be on the field if Donphan hasn't come out yet? Even the standard Froslass can come in on Donphan's EQ safely over half the time because most Donphan are Impish or don't invest in max Attack.

But all of these scenarios can and often will have a very different outcome on the battlefield as I'm sure you're well aware and for that reason they come across very awkwardly as justification for the banishment of a Pokemon.

If that was the case I would have no argument. But unfortunately for Froslass it really is the case. These scenarios are quite common, and I've been really abusing it lately and I can't see how it's even fair to the opponent if he doesn't get some serious hax to even the match up.

 

[Gideon]

weirdly I have started using a stall team and have been winning very easily in games in uu, when supposedly stall is done. I think stall is actually the best type of play. Generally i am a terrible stall player bu i have been doing well lately.

 

[Sock Monster]

Yeah, U-Turn can't cancel out Destiny Bond. If the Pokemon you switch in gets the first attack and kills Froslass, It goes down too.

I agree that Froslass is a great lead as it nearly always accomplishes part of it's job and can still function as a spin blocker or even a revenge killer as it is faster than Mismagius.

A well played Froslass can seriously be a major irritation. As there are only a few levitating pokemon in UU, namely the ghosts and Uxie/Mesprit who can avoid Spikes and take neutral from Stealth Rock, Spikes will be doing some damage on the opposing side.

However i am divided against whether Froslass is too overpowered. All i know is that it does it's job and does it well.

 

[Heysup]

Didn't see this before.

They are leads that don't severely hinder people's teams.

Look, I just made a statement that is completely contradictory to yours, how could this be? Because both of them are simply two different opinions based on our own experiences. You're not going to get anywhere trying to convince me (and others of a similar stance) if what you deem is a fact supporting your argument is in fact nothing more than an opinion I completely disagree with.

Lemmiwinks please stop ignoring my reasoning and then telling me I'm not supporting my arguments, especially when you are doing the exact same thing that you are accusing me of.

So once again, I posted reasoning for this. Here is a summary:

1) Spiritomb. Spiritomb being forced to run at least 176 Atk EVs with an Adamant nature to KO Froslass makes it a very very shitty Pokemon outside of leading. It is now always OHKOed by Gallades +2 Stone Edge. You know the calcs I'm sure. It also gives Pokemon like Arcanine, Blaziken, and <insert fire type> free attacks early in the game, which is always bad since they are so hard to switch into, regardless of how good your team is, not much can take attacks from Blaziken, as we all know.

Spiritomb has been my prime example for a while, but I've been noticing some others lately.

2) Kabutops. While Kabutops is an effective lead, it must cut down its effectiveness overall by being in the lead position. Instead of taking advantage of nice bulk and offensive stats, it needs to slap a Focus Sash on itself incase Froslass has Thunderbolt, or it's against a lead that isn't Froslass. Kabutops outside of a lead position is an extremely effective Spinner. It is one of the only spinners that can OHKO Froslass reliably on the switch.

3) Cloyster. While not as much as the other two, Cloyster's reasoning is the same as Kabutops, just toned down a notch since it is still a great lead. The point is that it isn't as effective as it could be not being forced to be in a lead position.

Those are some examples of Pokemon that hinder the team and overall effectiveness because of the fact that they are forced to lead because of Froslass.

And, again, "where is your reasoning"?

And Spiritomb can very easily run a setup that 2HKOs standard lead Froslass as well as comfortably survive a +2 LO Stone Edge from Gallade, his strongest option. That's all that matters, and is better in fact because then 'Tomb can hit back harder with Shadow Sneak. Besides, Spiritomb cannot reliably counter Gallade anyway, so your point is moot.

Really? Spiritomb needs 289 Atk (172 Atk EVs and an Adamant nature) to always 2HKO Froslass with Shadow Sneak/Pursuit.

This means that in order to get maximum physical defensiveness, it will need to use a spread of 252 HP / 172 Atk / 84 Def (it does better against Stone Edge than 84 HP / 252 Def). With this spread, it gets 304 HP and 273 defense. Now lets see how that fares against a +2 Life Orb Stone Edge from Gallade:

766 Atk vs 273 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 261 - 308 (85.86% - 101.32%)

That's an 87% OHKO with Stealth Rock, guaranteed with 1 Layer of Spikes + SR.

Am I missing something?

Froslass cannot give Pokemon the ability to easily sweep a significant portion of the metagame with little / no effort.

Once again, the mystery of two 'supposed' facts that completely contradict each other.

We can get into this discussion after we get pass the fact that Froslass can easily set up spikes, and that it's easy to keep them there. Otherwise, what's the point of looking at how easy spikes are broken?

If Froslass is the one putting the Spikes down to begin with, what the hell makes it a given that she is in tip-top shape after doing so? In my experience, Froslass never gets Spikes up for free, and in fact is often left at 1 HP after one layer. The assumption that Froslass can easily get Spikes up while taking little to no damage is flawed and way too convenient. it simply doesn't happen very often in practice.

Good point, but I was referring to what happens if you don't over-centralize and happen to lose a match up against Froslass. I should have clarified that, you're right. Even in the situation with 1 HP left, it still stalls out spinning for 1 turn at the very least. That's why I like the defensive variant.

I didn't just "say so", I gave my reasoning as to why. Your argument doesn't become any more relevant the more you keep repeatedly spouting it while putting your fingers in your ears.

You didn't give any valid reasoning as to why spinning is easier than I'm saying at all. I don't even think you posted any invalid reasoning....you could at least start with that.

Backing up an opinion with facts? That doesn't make any sense. An opinion is an opinion because it is subjective; all the reasoning in the world won't turn it into a fact.

Why can't you back up your opinion with facts? If I say "I think froslass is BL because of facts X, Y, and Z", that would be me backing up my opinion with facts. What you are doing is "I don't think Froslass is BL, and since it is an opinion I don't need to back it up and your arguments and facts are irrelevant".

Cloyster takes 50% upon coming in? That's assuming SR and all three layers of Spikes are down, which is clearly so easy to do. It is a pointless statement because it already assumes far more than what you're trying to justify.

Alright ok, Cloyster comes in with 75% HP after Stealth Rock, and at a whopping 158 Speed. It is hard to spin with Cloyster, even for just Stealth Rock. Add Spikes into the mix...good luck. Trust me, I tried Cloyster out for a while, and it just took too much damage.

I already know what the Ghosts in UU can do thank you very much, and I also know that they're far from indestructible.

They aren't indestructible, it is just hard to actually KO them before getting completely worn out by residual damage. And where is your reasoning? Show me how it is easy to KO a Ghost type or two before getting dominated by residual damage.

And again, if Froslass is broken because it makes offense too easy, somebody better go and demonstrate it, because I have seen nothing of the sort so far.

I didn't actually say "offense" is too easy. I said it was possible to simply not "allow" your opponent time to spin. It's quite a hard concept to understand for a top battler I know.

So Froslass is running 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, and 224 Defense? That's 218 EVs more than the maximum allocation, and you haven't even touched the Speed yet, one of Froslass' most prized assets. I have bolded a key word here so that you can't get out of it by saying "I meant two separate spreads". You can't assume two separate sets in one argument, it is too convenient. And that is enough reason why this is yet another flawed argument. Don't even get me started on the idea that Donphan has to be the team's SR user just because it can learn it.

"I meant two seperate spreads." It's as clear as glass that I was referring to the second spread with the calcs for Ice Beam because the defensive EV'd Froslass doesn't need to OHKO Donphan since Donphan doesn't 2HKO it most of the time (especially considering Froslass can Pain Split + KO with Ice Beam, always surviving Earthquake a second time after Pain Split, and even more so since Donphan is usually Impish).

Now don't get me wrong, Froslass is definitely a Pokemon that is hanging near the edge of BL. However, your arguments are so pathetic and poorly thought out right now that you must be deluded if you think that they are going to convince me that Froslass actually does make it over the edge. And remember, the burden of proof is always on the anti-Froslass side (i.e. people like you), not the neutral or pro-Froslass side. If you're going to continue with the same shitty arguments over and over again and keep pretending that they are good, then there really is no reason to keep responding to you as it would be a complete and utter waste of time.

I don't want to get into this "pissing match" that we get into so often over Pokemon like Froslass, but I think you need to reconsider your approach to this argument. How is it fair in an argument when I say "froslass is broken because it does X (explanation of X), Y (explanation of Y) and Z (explanation of Z)" and you just say "No, irrelevant. Convince me better."? That isn't how it works, even if you say so. You need to disprove my reasoning, regardless of what side your on. Hopefully we can get passed this and have an actual fruitful discussion.

 

[ZandgaiaX]

My current team with an anti-lead drapion (It was for roserade mainly) is sucking against frosslass.
So my question: What are the best anti-leads at this moment in the UU metagame?

 

[Heysup]

My current team with an anti-lead drapion (It was for roserade mainly) is sucking against frosslass.
So my question: What are the best anti-leads at this moment in the UU metagame?

Essentially if you want to be successful in this metagame you are going to have to use some...not "as" good Pokemon as you might want to, which is what I've been blabbing about for a while.

Try out Pokemon like Cloyster and Kabuto. They deal with Froslass and still function well outside of leading, well, at least more so than other Pokemon.

EDIT: Lol I forgot Ambipom....fail.

 

[Erazor]

Spiritomb and Ambipom are the best leads for Froslass, as is Cloyster. However, due to a glitch, I believe that Cloyster is beaten by Fake out + low Kick from Ambipom.

I think one thing has been overlooked in the Froslass debate - to all of you saying that "X lead beats it"(whether or not X is overspecialized), you have to remember that Froslass can just take you down with her. Sure, you might not get more than 1 layer of spikes, but still, going 5-5 with Spikes on your side is good.

On another note...I really, really, hate my net. I'm having a really tough time qualifying this time around, simply because I "lose" to random n00bs on the ladder.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I don't want to get into this "pissing match" that we get into so often over Pokemon like Froslass, but I think you need to reconsider your approach to this argument. How is it fair in an argument when I say "froslass is broken because it does X (explanation of X), Y (explanation of Y) and Z (explanation of Z)" and you just say "No, irrelevant. Convince me better."? That isn't how it works, even if you say so. You need to disprove my reasoning, regardless of what side your on. Hopefully we can get passed this and have an actual fruitful discussion.

I'm afraid I have come to the conclusion that any heated discussion that we do have is always going to end up fruitless. We are simply arguing from two separate intellectual standpoints, and when that happens nothing will ever come from it. I have explained time and time again why dozens of your arguments have little relevance to the main issue, yet you keep coming back and defending your indefensible statements, topping it off with a bit of twisted rhetoric to make it look like I am the one being ridiculous. I'm sorry, but I can't be doing with that, and it seems that no matter what I say, you will never change this mentality of yours, so why should I bother? You also don't seem to get that, being the accuser, the burden of proof is on you, not me. It is unreasonable to expect me to have to provide equal and opposite counter-arguments to every one of yours, when simply refuting or explaining the flaws in your arguments suffices. Innocent until proven guilty, so similarly, if it can't be proven that Froslass is BL material, it is UU.

I think we can both agree that this argument between us isn't going to go anywhere, ever, and therefore it is sensible to just recognize that and stop now. For the sake of our sanity if anything lol.