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You need 2 DS systems for it. Sure, the encounter itself is guaranteed, but it's more of an event/trade mon than a static encounter imo. You can't just pull up to that route, stick the Odd Keystone in the thing and have the mon pop out. You need external assistance.
Even when Plat was the current game I never got one. (didn't know about the loophole)
Can you even get it on emulators? It even sounds a bit hard to test. (especially since my one DS died, so RIP.)
You need 2 DS systems for it. Sure, the encounter itself is guaranteed, but it's more of an event/trade mon than a static encounter imo. You can't just pull up to that route, stick the Odd Keystone in the thing and have the mon pop out. You need external assistance.
Even when Plat was the current game I never got one. (didn't know about the loophole)
Can you even get it on emulators? It even sounds a bit hard to test. (especially since my one DS died, so RIP.)
You need 2 DS systems for it. Sure, the encounter itself is guaranteed, but it's more of an event/trade mon than a static encounter imo. You can't just pull up to that route, stick the Odd Keystone in the thing and have the mon pop out. You need external assistance.
Even when Plat was the current game I never got one. (didn't know about the loophole)
Can you even get it on emulators? It even sounds a bit hard to test. (especially since my one DS died, so RIP.)
On an emulator you can enter an action replay code to trigger the event, so you still can get and catch it at the same place as you normally would. I'd say its still worth tiering, as while Spiritomb is a hassle to get on the console itself it was always a hassle to get. Right now you can still get it the same way as you would get it back in the day, since it uses local wifi to connect to others. It's about the same difficulty to get as trade evolutions, and the requirements have not really changed to get it so i'd say it should be tiered.
I think penalising Spiritomb for its unique encounter method is rather arbitrary. It requires the same setup as trade evolutions, which aren’t prevented being S-rank for needing 2 systems, and just takes a bit of time investment to obtain.
These tiers aren’t for speed runs at the end of the day and if someone wants to use Spiritomb and have the means, then they’re just gonna load up Netflix or listen to some music while they’re doing it.
It’s not a 1% encounter or low encounter but only worth using with one ability that you can’t check right away like HGSS Scyther.
Tier it on how well it performs once you do obtain it and just adding a caveat about its awkward encounter should suffice, honestly.
Gengar: Its offense is heavily reliant on either unremarkable coverage moves like Shock Wave and pitiful physical STAB options like Lick and Shadow Claw until Shadow Ball at Lv. 33. You have several solid TM options, allowing it to function as a solid role player on your team. Since it starts off quite horribly and takes a very long time to pull its weight, let alone show real battle prowess, I'm fine with it in B. Wouldn't even be surprised if further testing pointed to C because Sinnoh is tough.
Stunky: As terrifying as Jupiter is, Skuntank is actually a fairly wack mon. Payback is a serviceable STAB until Night Slash, but you only really get Poison Jab as a viable Poison STAB. Jab being the TM, mind you, Stunky gets no Poison STAB on level-up. And that level-up movepool is just atrocious btw. Outside of Flamethrower, which is non-STAB coming off base 71 SpA, your best option is... Dig? Oh well, it at least got something going for it. Better than E-tier, I suppose.
Porygon-Z: Having used it countless times in the past and having it as one of my mainstays in my brief competitive venture, I can personally say it's a certified baller. You can immediately evolve it into Pory2, which by itself is a very solid mon, it comes with Psybeam to give it solid coverage, and Agility to fix its main flaw, Speed. Hyper Beam is also immediately available for the entire line and you can rely on it as a nuke option.
Download is the superior choice for in-game. If it procs for SpA, which will happen in Maylene's gym, I should add, you have a ridiculous amount of coverage options hitting at +1, which is essentially the same as STAB. This allows it to actually contribute in a matchup it should lose by default and on matchups it doesn't, which are most of them, really, you get to wreak havoc. Adaptability is not recommended.
But what if it doesn't? Your physical STAB of choice goes from reliable but unimpressive to real damage. Sadly, Tri Attack is very late, so Hyper Beam will be your special STAB of choice for a while. It's not necessary to run STAB until then at all, especially if you're rolling with Agility, but it's kind of nice to have it. The 4-moveslot syndrome is real.
Basically, Porygon-Z is the best coverage-based glue in the game and boasts impressive damage output. Pory2 is very viable by itself and does not fall off before evolution. Z gives it much-needed Speed and frankly absurd output in exchange for defense. The most notable bad matchup for it is Byron because Steel resists your likely STAB + BoltBeam combo of choice, though it can wreak havoc on the mons that don't resist Discharge/Thunderbolt since most steels will proc +1 SpA with Download.
I personally nominate it for A without a shred of doubt it deserves that rank.
Magmortar: Basically, it joins a tad late, requires the contested TBolt TM, but it has a very solid performance and can evolve immediately for very good stats. I agree with Baron's post. B-Tier is accurate for that mon.
Glaceon: Having used it many times myself, I'm well aware of how it performs. The answer is not well at all. It's a mon that comes obscenely late, and doesn't quite have matchups that would warrant the hassle. Shadow Ball is very important, but its coverage is so bad that beyond that, you might as well double down on STAB and run Hail, Blizzard, AND Ice Beam. It's really that bad. Water Pulse sounds very appealing until you remember it's 60 BP and odds are that if something is weak to Water but resists Ice, it's a Fire-type primed and ready to outspeed and likely OHKO Glaceon despite its good defenses because base 65 HP is pitiful. Otherwise, STAB Ice Beam deals the same damage as neutral Water Pulse.
The elephant in the room is how to train it since Eevee comes early, but the Ice Rock is late. The answer? Do whatever. If you're going to bench it, might as well put it in the daycare and get a couple of levels off that. Otherwise, let it mooch some exp with the Exp. Share. Detrimental to the team in that case, but hey, blame GF for that boneheaded evo method.
Glaceon is hardly viable, but it at least hits very hard when you get it rolling. Speed will always be a serious issue, even against matchups it should otherwise win easily (Hi Garchomp!). E-Tier is fitting for it.
Unown: Doesn't even warrant the bold text. It's there, so it's F.
Rotom: Rotom is an odd case. That movepool is nothing short of pathetic, but on the other hand, do you really need more than Electric and Ghost in terms of coverage? The problem lies in its stats. It could run some utility with Discharge and a screen, (TWave is post-game) but it desperately needs any output it can get, which likely means Specs. And STAB TBolt off 91 SpA, while respectable with Specs, only reinforces its limited movepool issue, that Shadow Ball isn't quite as strong, and the fact that its defensive stats are not going to cut it endgame. C sounds reasonable for it.
Swablu: I wouldn't even call it viable tbh. Dragon Dance + Fly is really the best output you're getting out of it. Just a horrible mon that essentially doesn't even have winning matchups without EQ and that's probably the most contested TM in the entire game. Just no. E-Tier.
Espeon: Espeon has a very glaring flaw. Movepool. Psychic isn't quite Gen 1 Psychic anymore, there are quite a bunch of resists, and if you want that move at all in-game, you better have 200k ready to shell out in the game corner or wait until you have Rock Climb to get it near Celestic. Your only real coverage options are Shadow Ball and Grass Knot. Even Psybeam comes rather late at Lv. 36.
Did you seriously waste a Heart Scale on Confusion without even pointing it out? How in blazes did you get Psychic for Wake? I feel like your tests weren't really transparent about your methods, the cost for Confusion by itself is already very steep for Espeon to just solo Maylene, but Psychic that early is nothing short of baffling.
As for Espeon itself, it's fast, it hits obscenely hard, but it's going to have a rough time until Psychic and Shadow Ball. Screens are viable since it's really not using up that 4th slot. You'll need to hold on to Swift for a while until Shadow Ball. That's kind of sad. Grass Knot is unironically a game-changer here because of Wake and Byron to a lesser extent. B-Tier seems fitting enough. I'd like more tests on it if possible.
Reading your post, guess I was too harsh on Magmortar and Porygon-Z. I don't know why I put them in C. Also, I feel Espeon has too much going against it to be A.
I started a run with Empoleon, Gliscor, Roserade, Jolteon, and Gardevoir. I think people usually have 2 Pokemon before Jupiter, so I caught a Starly immediately after Roark and stopped using it when I caught a Gligar. This is why Prinplup's levels were kind of low when I battled Gardenia and Jupiter.
Prinplup: It outspeeds and OHKOs Geodude and Onix and also wins the 1v1 against Cranidos.
Espeon: Espeon has a very glaring flaw. Movepool. Psychic isn't quite Gen 1 Psychic anymore, there are quite a bunch of resists, and if you want that move at all in-game, you better have 200k ready to shell out in the game corner or wait until you have Rock Climb to get it near Celestic. Your only real coverage options are Shadow Ball and Grass Knot. Even Psybeam comes rather late at Lv. 36.
Did you seriously waste a Heart Scale on Confusion without even pointing it out? How in blazes did you get Psychic for Wake? I feel like your tests weren't really transparent about your methods, the cost for Confusion by itself is already very steep for Espeon to just solo Maylene, but Psychic that early is nothing short of baffling.
As for Espeon itself, it's fast, it hits obscenely hard, but it's going to have a rough time until Psychic and Shadow Ball. Screens are viable since it's really not using up that 4th slot. You'll need to hold on to Swift for a while until Shadow Ball. That's kind of sad. Grass Knot is unironically a game-changer here because of Wake and Byron to a lesser extent. B-Tier seems fitting enough. I'd like more tests on it if possible.
I looked back at my logs, and now I'm also less sure that it should be in A tier. I'll get back to you after I finish this run. Also why did you edit the tiers for Pt but not DP?
I started a run with Empoleon, Gliscor, Roserade, Jolteon, and Gardevoir. I think people usually have 2 Pokemon before Jupiter, so I caught a Starly immediately after Roark and stopped using it when I caught a Gligar. This is why Prinplup's levels were kind of low when I battled Gardenia and Jupiter.
Prinplup: It outspeeds and OHKOs Geodude and Onix and also wins the 1v1 against Cranidos.
Prinplup: It can win the 1v1 against Turtwig or Roserade, but not both.
Prinplup @ Oran berry
Level: 23
- pound
- metal claw
- bubblebeam
- pluck
Prinplup: It easily outspeeds and 2HKOs Zubat and usually has enough HP left to defeat Skuntank.
Prinplup @ Oran berry
Level: 25
- grass knot
- metal claw
- bubblebeam
- pluck
For Roserade's moveset, I want sludge bomb, growth, shadow ball, and a grass move. Should it be giga drain or petal dance? Are the other 3 moves good?
I looked back at my logs, and now I'm also less sure that it should be in A tier. I'll get back to you after I finish this run. Also why did you edit the tiers for Pt but not DP?
The big thing to note is that there are several Pokemon who are only available in Platinum and not in DP. Also worth noting that Gible has vastly different availability in Platinum compared to DP (available early in Plat, but mid game and sorely underleveled in DP).
I don't mind merging the tiers, but this is important to keep in mind if you do. Make note of mons only available in Plat and how certain Pokemon are only available in Plat, and different tiers for mons who have different availability in different versions of either Pt or DP, like Gible.
The big thing to note is that there are several Pokemon who are only available in Platinum and not in DP. Also worth noting that Gible has vastly different availability in Platinum compared to DP (available early in Plat, but mid game and sorely underleveled in DP).
I don't mind merging the tiers, but this is important to keep in mind if you do. Make note of mons only available in Plat and how certain Pokemon are only available in Plat, and different tiers for mons who have different availability in different versions of either Pt or DP, like Gible.
Yes, this is more in line with every other gen with lists and reduces a lot of the overlap between the DP and Plat tiers. The outliers can and should be pointed out.
But naturally, I'll hold off on such a major change for a while so more people can comment on it.
I'm using Budew on a current run as well. It can sweep Roark, and Gardenia if you really need it to. It's quite bad against Mars and Jupiter though, with its only contribution being stun spore. It's not terrible, but I think it's easier to just get the route 208 Roselia. The big advantage of this is that you don't have to evolve Budew through happiness. In my run, Budew didn't even evolve naturally before level 25, so I had to run around in circles for fifteen minutes just to evolve it in time for giga drain. I also missed out on leech seed because of this, which is great support for matchups that would otherwise be bad. And before you ask, I did give it the soothe bell. I'm also planning on using a slightly experimental set with sunnybeam + weather ball and sludge bomb. I doubt it will be worth it over the standard set, but at least the set is fun and different, which I like.
As for merging the DP list, I think we don't lose out much by not having a DP list. The vast majority of people prefer Platinum over DP anyway. The Pokemon that are only available in one of the games can just get a comment in the write-ups. Availability is not that difficult to look up, I think people will get it.
Didn't RSE also have one merged lists? I think Pokemon that performed noticeably different between versions, like Zigzagoon, got ranked twice, with a (RS) or (E) behind the name. That seems like a good solution to me. The only issue with this is that we might end up with multiple double rankings, but as far as I'm aware, the only Pokemon where this applies are Gible and maybe some honey tree mons like Wormadam. And even then, having some double rankings is still easier than maintaining two entire separate lists.
Whenever I've used Roserade, I've had more success with it as a Roselia rather than a Budew. I can also vouch for Petal Dance over Giga Drain. If the rules state you have to play on Set, then I can sort of understand where you're coming from. Otherwise; Petal Dance is stronger and has more PP, the latter of which is strengthened by the fact that the second or third round of it doesn't consume anything.
If we are talking of merging DP and Platinum, I think there are a few questions that should be discussed in terms of how much they theoretically affect things.
First off is the early TMs. In DP you get Hidden Power, while in Plat you get Return. How much do some pokemon get a viability boost from Hidden Power or more likely a viability boost from Return without having to use the Game Corner? While I doubt that too many pokemon will jump a tier just by access to either of these, it is something we should talk about whether it is a game changer or not.
The other thing is that we should talk about how the route is slightly different in DP from Plat, and how that might affect placements. Fantina is notoriosuly one of the more challenging gym leaders in platinum, while in DP you face her much later and have more options against Mismagius. Candice as well is much harder in Platinum than in DP. I guess the question is are the gym leaders different enough where Pokemon might have to be tiered separately between DP or Plat?
The final thing that might be a concern is pokemon availability. Now, we can obviously just tier them separately on the tier list, but I guess the question is how many pokemon might this affect. Off the top of my head, Croagunk and Gible are the two obvious choices. Having to grind the Great Marsh vs going to the route next to Pastoria is a big difference for efficiency. Gible before Fantina vs Gible before Candice also is a huge difference as well. Now, as I said we could easily just do Croagunk DP, Croagunk Plat, Gible DP, Gible Plat, and explain why they are separated. But how many more scenarios like this are there?
If these three things are not as much of a concern, I am in favor of merging the two lists. It would just look a lot less messy. Tiering for instance Croagunk in Platinum higher than in DP makes sense given availability concerns. I just want to make sure the end result is less messy and we do not end up tiering half of the tier list twice.
Didn't RSE also have one merged lists? I think Pokemon that performed noticeably different between versions, like Zigzagoon, got ranked twice, with a (RS) or (E) behind the name
Those lists generally just split the rankings because a majority of the Pokemon are the same rank regardless of the game. In RBY, we had around ten Pokemon or so that ended up in different tiers between RB and Y, so we could afford to merge the lists (we had some worries in the beginning that we may have to split them, but everything performed similarly, only a bit worse due to stupid level spikes and better movepools on the opponents), but we felt that there weren't enough differences to go as far as splitting them.
For DPPt, you probably want to see if a majority of the Pokemon would end up in the same ranks irrespective of the game (discounting game exclusives like box legendaries). If you can rank a Pokemon the same way in both lists and reasonably fit both performances in one write-up and can do that for a majority of the Pokemon, then that's probably a good base for merging. With that said, I've heard the games aren't like too similar, so that may be a bit of an issue here (unlike, say, GSC, where slight level up changes and different availabilities are the only relevant changes). If possible, try to see if you can reasonably merge them first and then resort to splitting the lists if that fails, because I imagine that publishing both together would be incredibly hard (you need to find people that would be willing to QC / GP two lists at once and we've had issues getting people to do so for just one list) unless you want to actively withhold one's release till the other's done. Or you could just release whichever one gets done first and then publish the other one once it's also done.
(as a side note, Zigzagoon is split there because Pickup is stupidly broken in RS. It can give you stuff like Super Potions, Nuggets, Rare Candies, and Full Restores at a reasonable chance, since it doesn't actually track levels or anything, unlike later gens. But this isn't RSE, so not gonna dive in too much. Also, apologies for not posting much about DPPt itself, I don't really play Sinnoh and haven't really thought about playing it in the near future. Always happy to help with policymaking, though)
I can vouch for catching Budew later as Roselia. Both me and a friend got to where you can catch Roselia near Hearthome and still had Budew. Beating Roark isn’t that big so just catch it later.
While I can’t say I’ve used it myself in recent memory, has anyone considered Gible without using the Earthquake TM on it?
I mean, yeah, why wouldn’t you teach EQ to a ground, but what if you want to give EQ to something like say, Rampardos or something? How heavily do we weigh EQ on Gible? Is it’s performance markedly worse without the TM? I know Gilscor basically forces the EQ TM on for comparison, though Dig is still okay in Gible’s case.
I can vouch for catching Budew later as Roselia. Both me and a friend got to where you can catch Roselia near Hearthome and still had Budew. Beating Roark isn’t that big so just catch it later.
While I can’t say I’ve used it myself in recent memory, has anyone considered Gible without using the Earthquake TM on it?
I mean, yeah, why wouldn’t you teach EQ to a ground, but what if you want to give EQ to something like say, Rampardos or something? How heavily do we weigh EQ on Gible? Is it’s performance markedly worse without the TM? I know Gilscor basically forces the EQ TM on for comparison, though Dig is still okay in Gible’s case.
Finally got some logs done. Also, lost all screenshots of the Maylene test. Must've been a mapping error with my pad and I didn't notice because Desmume doesn't have a popup confirming the screenshots. Love when this happens...
Got the bike, time to go down the old Cycling Road. Off to a good start by grabbing the Exp. Share.
Y'know, the thing that would have been really useful when I had to grind up a mon that can't even 4HKO a Magikarp 5 levels weaker than said mon.
I hate how Game Freak handled the old Exp. Share, you never really had it when you actually needed it.
Cycling around, beating trainers... Time to see if all that work paid off. I'm relying on Wormadam-Trash to be the defensive backbone of this team. It should be fine, even if I run into a Fire-type, W-Trash got a 70BP Hidden Power Ground.
Only problem would be a Fire-type, but the next battle is one of those double trainer ambushes, so I'll get Staravia to pair up...
Pachirisu and Ponyta.
Ain't much I can do about a double mismatch, but...
My boys are clutch af!!!
Crossed Mt. Coronet, remembered to save some trainers for Finneon. Time to sneak to the Good Rod...
Immediately got spotted by a Hiker. This ain't my day lmao.
Got the Shell Bell. Gonna give it to Grotle so it can use Curse a bit more reliably.
Trying to get to that Good Rod as soon as I can and turns out Pearl ambushed me on a different spot. Didn't even get to save, so sorry about the lackluster test, this really ain't gonna be thorough.
Misdreavus beat Starly and Buizel, Monferno dealt roughly 20 damage with Flame Wheel, so I switched out to Staravia.
Wing Attack almost OHKO'd, dropped Monferno straight to red. Gonna finish it off with Quick attack since Staravia outspeeds. Gonna finish off Roselia real quick and that's game.
Got the Rod, gotta backtrack to Route 205 for Finneon.
Came across a Wild Bibarel on the way back. Immediately caught it.
Found a Lv. 24 Karp, since we all know that Karp is absolute deadweight, it might be worth the trouble to wait until the Good Rod to catch a Karp ready to evolve and skip that horrible phase, if you wanna use a Gyarados. For reference, my team was hovering around the 21~22 mark when I got the Good Rod.
Got a Finneon. Had to backtrack pretty much all the way back to the Valley Windworks, but you can just cut through it quickly because you have so many shortcuts in Sinnoh. I could've gone to the route west of Jubilife even quicker, but I thought Finneon was on 205 north.
Oh well. It got Rain Dance and Swift Swim from the jump. That's gonna be fun.
Went back through Oreburgh Gate to check if I missed any trainers. Got the Brick Break TM. You only need the Bike and Rock Smash for it, so it's pretty early. Great option for mons like Meditite.
Decided to explore Wayward Cave because I never really did it and I was underleveled for a while now, so might as well.
That was not a good decision.
Oh well, I suppose 4 or 5 double battles are good. Finneon did catch up to the team after all.
Completely optional area tho. Only thing that was even remotely interesting there was a Rare Candy.
Got the Steel Wing TM. Nothing groundbreaking, but it gives Staravia minimal coverage and it's not like I'm starved for slots anyway.
Reached Solaceon. The local news wanted a Misdreavus, but the reward was a bunch of Repeat Balls. That sucks.
I wonder where I can even get some Heart Scales in this game...
Bruh. You get at least 7 Scales in Plat. DP? Two on the overworld and if you don't like it, better start digging up in the Underground.
Horrible. If a mon needs a lot of relearn moves, DP ain't the game for them.
Explored the Lost Tower, got Return (immediately taught to Staravia) and Strength.
Looted the Solaceon Ruins, got some nice valuables.
On my way to Veilstone. That rain route is pretty long, 6~8 trainers with a Double Ace on the last one.
Got a Calcium along the way and gave it to Wormadam.
Got to Veilstone. Whole team at Lv. 24.
Only TM I got was the Blizzard one for Finneon. Bought Screens too, but only Grotle learns them. Not particularly interested in the GC TMs for this run, Ice Beam is available naturally.
Will get Silk Scarf for Staravia because I got too much money anyway, so why not?
Kept it moving and arrived at Pastoria. Got a Sitrus Berry on the way.
Levels hovering at the 26~27 mark, so I decided to clear out both gyms before finishing the big loop.
Last update to this log was March 24th. What the heck...
I was in Maylene's Gym, apparently had just beaten one trainer. Swapped Finneon to the lead because it's the only mon at lv. 26 in my team. Got greeted by a Machoke. Damn near got yeeted out of the gym by a Vital Throw, but Finneon managed to pull through with Rain Dance + Water Pulse confusing the Machoke and clutching out a 1v2 win.
Might not be the best matchup for it...
Sure enough, a crit Karate Chop OHKO'd it 2 trainers later. Oh well. Machokes do hit fairly hard.
Time for Maylene.
Test 1: Finneon.
Turn 1 is Meditite setting up with Meditate, then me setting up rain.
Rain Water Pulse does 50%, but Drain Punch does over 2/3's and heals the damage off, so a 2HKO is not possible. Bad matchup.
Reset.
Test 2: Grotle vs. Meditite / Finneon vs. Machoke.
Gonna see if Finneon can take on Machoke.
Meditite started off with Detect, but I was mashing Razor Leaf. 50%.
Still really pointless since Meditite outspeeds, so I might as well ignore the Speed drop and set up a Curse. Got her to burn her Hyper Potion too.
A single Curse makes that matchup very comfortable. Not that it was ever truly threatening.
Finneon vs. Machoke.
Finneon naturally outspeeds. Rain's up. Machoke did Rock Tomb. 45/63. -1 Speed, but it doesn't matter with the Rain up.
Rain WP is a 3HKO tho.
Between Machoke messing around with Foresight and Rock Tomb, that was pretty easy. 34/65.
Gonna check how much Rain Pulse is going to do on Lucario.
Nothing. Lucario outsped Finneon. Force Palm KO'd it.
Reset.
Round 3: Grotle.
Vs. Meditite
Meditite outspeeds and frequently wastes time with Detect or boosts its attack with Meditate. Obvious Curse bait. Will try to set up to +2 and see how that works out.
First turn, as predicted, starts with Meditite using Detect. +1.
Second is Meditate. A bit more dangerous, but I did get to +2 with full health. A frailer mon would definitely not want to eat a +1 Drain Punch tho.
Detect on the 3rd. Now that's just annoying. Blocked a Razor Leaf.
After another Detect on the 4th, finally some action.
+1 Drain Punch on Grotle at +2 Def left it with 68/83 HP. 75 after Shell Bell. Clean OHKO.
Vs. Machoke
Machoke wastes a turn with Foresight. Razor Leaf deals around 60%. Kinda disappointing at +2, but I'm at 80/83HP now, so it's not that bad.
Rock Tomb. 7 damage. -3 Speed literally doesn't matter in this whole gym, so whatever. Level up to 28.
Vs. Lucario
Finally, the main event. Aaaaand she started by missing a Bone Rush. Is this XY? Maylene's AI is kinda abysmal here, there was no reason for her to not use Force Palm.
Drain Punch did 15 damage. Razor Leaf missed. Twice. In a row.
Ok, finally a solid hit...
Bruh.
lol Bone Rush. 1 hit was a crit, 12 damage, the other 2 weren't. 16 damage total. Embarrassing.
Crit Drain Punch ends the run. Grotle's damage output is so low that Drain Punch becomes a serious concern down the road. Not a good matchup, but workable if you can sneak in more Curses.
Reset.
Round 4: Wormadam.
Vs. Meditite
Slugfest right off the bat. Both mons use Confusion, with varying results. Wormadam's 3HKOs Meditite, Meditite's does 4 damage. Meditite is faster.
Meditate on Turn 2. I don't like that.
She used a Hyper Potion on T3.
Ah dammit. Crit +1 DP. 56 damage. 20/80. All things considered, this is the worst case scenario, so it's actually nice to know that Wormadam can tank that kind of damage.
Used a Super Potion myself. Another Meditate.
Bruh... Crit Confusion... From Meditite. Imagine boosting up to +2 Atk and then using Confusion.
Vs. Machoke
Wormadam outspeeds, Confusion did a bit over 50%, but it used Leer. Don't like that. Btw, Wormadam's speed is 33. So it's very easy to outspeed Machoke.
Vs. Lucario
Sticking with Confusion because Hidden Power is a lottery unsuitable to a proper test. If I used it tho, it'd be a 70BP Ground one, which would be perfect in this situation.
Force Palm did 46/80 damage at -1. Confusion did roughly 40%. Interesting...
On a 1v1, Lucario should win, both 3HKO and Lucario is faster, but knowing Maylene is prone to boneheaded plays, it might be possible to pull off an upset. Nothing I would count on, but overall, that was a good matchup. Wormadam can at least reliably get rid of the 2 other mons and do a chunk of damage to Lucario if things go awry. Good matchup.
Reset.
Round 5: Misdreavus.
Vs. Meditite.
Psybeam did almost 50%, still on green tho. Astonish is a clean 3HKO. Meditite can't really do anything to it. Didn't even take damage, even though it could've used Confusion. Missy outspeeds.
Vs. Machoke.
Psybeam deals roughly 65%. It has Foresight, but not the time to do anything with it. Clean 2HKO.
Vs. Lucario.
Foresight persists after Machoke is KO'd. Force Palm did 46 damage. 32/78 HP left. Psybeam deals roughly 25%. 5HKO at best because of Sitrus.
I definitely wasn't expecting that. Reset.
Round 6: Staravia.
Staravia's Happiness: 240. (96BP Return)
Pluck OHKOs Meditite. Machoke is a clean 2HKO and it wasted its turn with Foresight.
Full HP vs Lucario.
This is bad. Drain Punch does 40/71. Pluck is roughly a 3HKO. A sweep is not possible, but maybe Intimidate will make this winnable.
Also, I just realized, Lucario is at Lv. 30. I'm on par with Maylene's Machoke and most of her trainers, not her Lucario. I can't even remember why I did that, but ok I guess.
Metal Claw does a chunk of damage too, a bit over 30. Pluck is a 4HKO.
Reset.
Round 7: Wormadam vs Meditite, Finneon vs. Machoke, Staravia vs. Lucario.
A lot of things could go wrong here, but I'll try to make this the final run.
Wormadam confused on the first turn. Ain't this some hax? Didn't hit itself in 3 turns tho, and baited Maylene into burning her Hyper Potion. This is huge vs. Lucario.
Now, it's Finneon's turn.
Brick Break left it with 17/63. Got the Rain up. Machoke outspeeds. Is this actually a speed tie?
Brick Break promptly makes sushi out of Finneon. Deadweight matchup.
Sending in Grotle.
Bruh. Why does Razor Leaf deal so little damage? It was less than Finneon's Water Pulse. Time to mash Curse.
Curse baits Maylene into mashing Leer to debuff Defense, allowing me to safely finish Machoke off. But obviously, Lucario at -1 is going to be no good. Not that I planned to keep Grotle in anyway...
A chunk of damage after Intimidate? No wonder this thing was OU. This chick is being hard-carried.
Might as well test Misdreavus.
Psybeam 4HKOs. Metal Claw left Missy with 54/78. A bad roll and this is a 3HKO.
Gotta hold this L, I'm going to deal with Wake's Gym trainers first. The level disadvantage is kinda giving me troubles here.
I'm going to close the level gap at Pastoria with Barry and Wake's trainers before trying again. I'm a bit underleveled and it's kinda messing up with this testing.
Early impressions are the following
Finneon (Lv. 26): Wants no part of that. Gambling on Maylene being stupid enough only takes it so far, it lacks both the bulk and the power to reliably deal with things, even with Rain Dance.
Grotle (Lv. 27): Pathetic output, can kinda make it work with a LOT of Curses, but 2 won't be enough.
Wormadam (Lv. 28): Actually a good option. Deals with Meditite and Machoke fairly easily, Lucario wins by being faster and the potential Drain Punch. Right now, if I needed to get past her at all costs, I'd throw it on a 1v1 vs Lucario and hope for the best.
Staravia (Lv. 27): Almost sweeps, but Lucario is too strong. Drain Punch allows it to constantly pull off what Staravia itself should be doing with Pluck.
Misdreavus (Lv.27): Do not use vs. Machoke at all costs. Otherwise, a very solid mon against Maylene. I expect it to be able to handle Lucario with an extra level putting it out of 3HKO roll range.
Maylene: A scrub. Hard carried by Lucario. I'm salty. Go step in snow while barefoot.
Prinplup: It cannot win the 1v1 against Grotle but can sweep everything else.
Gligar: It performs similarly to Prinplup.
Roselia: It cannot win the 1v1 against Staravia. Roselia can sweep the other 3 because Ponyta and Grotle both use useless status moves that give Roselia plenty of turns to heal itself.
Eevee: It can sweep through any 2 of Staravia, Buizel, or Roselia.
Jolteon @ shell bell
Level: 30
- thunder
- double kick
- secret power
- growl
Gardevoir @ mind plate
Ability: synchronize
Level: 30
- psychic
- calm mind
- magical leaf
- confusion
Prinplup: It can win the 1v1 against Quagsire.
Gliscor. It can defeat Gyarados only if it knows thunder fang. If a teammate takes out Gyarados, then Gliscor can set up on Quagsire, defeat Quagsire, take one ice fang from Floatzel, and OHKO it with earthquake.
Roselia: It can win the 1v1 against Quagsire. Roselia can also defeat Gyarados if it never flinches and wins the speed tie on turn 3. Floatzel outspeeds and OHKOs it.
Jolteon: It can outspeed Gyarados and OHKO Gyarados and Floatzel. It loses the 1v1 against Quagsire.
Gardevoir: It can defeat both Gyarados and Quagsire, but Floatzel outspeeds and OHKOs Gardevoir.
Very surprised to find Psyduck in B tier. Granted this was the gen that FINALLY gave it early water stab with Water Gun, but I'd have thought him high C at the max due to the notably average sub 100 base stats as Golduck
Anyone fill me in on how it performs to warrant B?
I can vouch for catching Budew later as Roselia. Both me and a friend got to where you can catch Roselia near Hearthome and still had Budew. Beating Roark isn’t that big so just catch it later.
While I can’t say I’ve used it myself in recent memory, has anyone considered Gible without using the Earthquake TM on it?
I mean, yeah, why wouldn’t you teach EQ to a ground, but what if you want to give EQ to something like say, Rampardos or something? How heavily do we weigh EQ on Gible? Is it’s performance markedly worse without the TM? I know Gilscor basically forces the EQ TM on for comparison, though Dig is still okay in Gible’s case.
dig on gible sounds fine unless you prefer a set six-mon squadron and earthquake isn't needed on anyone else. dig still does the job with most pokemon you're using garchomp against.
Very surprised to find Psyduck in B tier. Granted this was the gen that FINALLY gave it early water stab with Water Gun, but I'd have thought him high C at the max due to the notably average sub 100 base stats as Golduck
Anyone fill me in on how it performs to warrant B?
A lot of these are still based on the old thread, so we don't know for sure. Lemme check its movepool real quick...
To be fair, I'm not seeing anything that particularly stands out here. Psychic coverage isn't that important anymore and the TM is late af anyway.
That is a good question, why is it at B? Looks like the typical mon that falls off a cliff late-game, if not even before.
Judging by my experiences with Psyduck in BW2 (different game I know) anytime early Psyduck comes it's never really a good thing. That evolution level of 33 feels so far away that by the time you get it, you'll be around Celestic and Choice Specs. Then it'll be fine, but like, is it really worth a mon with roughly 50 in every stat sans Special Attack (65) until then? I don't think so.
I think there are loads of better Water types that give you quicker return on investment. Just because something is early doesn't mean it is high tier. Examples: USUM Slowpoke, BW1 Purrloin, etc.
Plus what matchups does Psyduck actually win early aside from Roark? It will obviously be outmuscled by Purugly, Gardenia, Skunktank, Platinum Fantina, and definitely Maylene and Wake. Like it's okay once it evolves, but when you lose to almost half the game that is a problem.
