DPPt In-Game Tier List Thread v2

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Very surprised to find Psyduck in B tier. Granted this was the gen that FINALLY gave it early water stab with Water Gun, but I'd have thought him high C at the max due to the notably average sub 100 base stats as Golduck
Anyone fill me in on how it performs to warrant B?
You can catch Psyduck (or even Golduck) right after acquiring Surf in Celestic Town at level 40 (higher than Barry's and Byron's teams in Canalave). The duck has type advantage against Byron, Flint and Bertha while also having the option to use coverage against other major trainers (e.g. Candice and Lucian). Lastly, while Golduck's stats are not great, it is worth remembering that none of its stats are really bad.
 
You can catch Psyduck (or even Golduck) right after acquiring Surf in Celestic Town at level 40 (higher than Barry's and Byron's teams in Canalave). The duck has type advantage against Byron, Flint and Bertha while also having the option to use coverage against other major trainers (e.g. Candice and Lucian). Lastly, while Golduck's stats are not great, it is worth remembering that none of its stats are really bad.
That's the reason why I vouch for it in B as well. I have a feeling that the results are disappointing if you catch it as a Psyduck before the first gym.
 
Hello everyone.
I am replaying my Pokemon Platinum for nostalgia reasons and also because I want to do some RNG stuff on it. I decided to use a Vespiquen in my team since I really like it's design. The original in game tiers didn't even mention her which all things considered it's pretty unfair since Vespiquen can be a useful Pokemon. certainly fair a lot better than the other generic Bug/Flying early game bugs in other games. Here is my logs so far. I will update the post as I go.

I chose Piplup for my run as my starter. I did skip a bunch of Trainers in order not to overlevel. I did also maintained a healthy team of 4 Pokemon.
I have used this grading system to rate my battles in order to get a better picture of what she is able to do.
Grades:

A: Clean sweep or sweep with minimal Potion (items) investment

B: Sweep with item usage (>2) or KO most of the opponent’s team (>60%).

C: KO some of the opponent’s team (~50%). Unable to entirely sweep. Moderate item usage.

D: KO 1 or 2 of the opponent’s team (<50%). Moderate to extensive item usage.

E: Unable to KO any Pokemon.

My Combee: Lvl 11
1629721949554.png

Struggles to KO Zubat and loses to Purugly
Grade: D

I past my way through Eterna Forest without much trouble. Combee is a monster destroying most trainers

Vespiquen LvL 21
Cleanest sweep in my Pokemon history. You quad resist STAB Grass attacks and you 2HKO Turtwig/Cherrim with Bug Bite while Roserade is a 3HKO with Gust while she can't do much to you!
Grade: A

Vespiquen LvL 23
1HKO Zubat and can win vs Skunktank
Grade: B

Vespiquen LvL 24
-Wins Duskul but takes time. Burn is annoying
-Mismagius is a rough matchup. It is a loss but you can slowly take her down provided she isn't spamming Shadow Ball. Bug Bite is nice to steal her Sitrus Berry!
-You win Haunter easily. You tank his hit's and 3HKO it back with Power Gem.
Comments: At Level 25 you learn Heal Order so this might help you to turn the matchup vs Mismagius since you can stall her Shadow Ball PP with Pressure+Heal Order.
Grade: B-C (yet to be decided)

Vespiquen LvL 25
-Wins Staravia provided you don't miss Power Gem (which 2HKO Staravia).
-Wins Ponyta 2HKOing it with Power Gem.
-Wins Buizel 2HKO with Bug Bite.
-Wins Grotle 2-3HKO depending on the range with Gust/BB.
Grade: A

Before hitting the Gym I have a tough call if I want to teach my Vespiquen Toxic or not. With Pressure+Heal order + Toxic is would become a great tank Pokemon but I decide to pass since Gust is important for the upcoming fight/ Bug Bite is a no brainer/Heal Order is amazing and Power Gem provides with important coverage!

Vespiquen LvL 30
-
2HKO Meditate but I am also 2HKOed back from Rock Tomb.
-2HKO Machoke but Rock Tomb 2HKOes me back.
-Can tank Lucario and win with no problem.
Comments: The battle is actually a lot trickier than it seems and it's all about whether her Meditate (and her Machoke) goes for Rock Tomb or not. You can't win if she spams it since the speed drop iss game changing. After one Rock Tomb I am outspeed by her Machoke. If she opts for other moves you have an easy time winning.
Grade: C (maybe D)

Vespiquen LvL 32
-2HKO Staravia with PG (Wing Attack is 3HKO)
-2HKO Ponyta with PG (Ember is 3HKO)
-3HKO Grotle with BB
-Easy win vs Buizel (2HKO with BB)
Grade: A

You do have to option to use the move tutor in pastoria and exchange some shards to teach Vespiquen Air Cutter which is an upgrade to Gust but in order to do so you have to visit the underground and search those shards. I decided to stick with Gust for now and see how it goes but will probably upgrade at some point.

Vespiquen LvL 33
-Gyarados is a rough matchup. You can PP stall him with Heal Order and PG does good amounts of damage but he has a 3HKO with Waterfall and Bite/Waterfall can all flinch you which makes PP stalling harder to pull off.
-Quagsire has Rock Tomb which is around the 2HKO. Once again you have to PP stall and maybe hope he misses RT.
-Floatzel has Ice Fang which does more than your BB and outspeeds you so it's a loss..unless you PP stall again.
Comments: Overall not a great Gym for Vespiquen. She has to pull out some PP stall tactics in order to win the 1vs1 and even then a flinch or a crit will ruin your day. It can diss out some solid damage so she is able to contribute at least something. If I had chosen to go for Toxic she might be able to Stall some of those Pokemon better and maybe win some of the 1vs1 more easily.
Grade: D

Vespiquen LvL 36
-2HKO Sneasel
-3HKO Golbat
-Loss vs Murkrow since it outspeeds me and Drill Peck does more than my PG.
Grade: B

Vespiquen LvL 37
-
win vs Staraptor since PG is 2HKo while Aerial Ace is 3HKO!
-PG 2HKO Rapidash (he opted to use Take down)
-win vs Heracross since I tank his Aerial Ace and 2HKO it back
-win vs Tortera
-win vs Floatzel with Attack Order
Grade: A

Vespiquen LvL 38
As expected you can't touch his Pokemon and they all destroy you!
Grade: E

I do made a goof and I forgot to log the battle vs Saturn but she should have done pretty ok given how most battles vs Team Galactic go. I would say Golbat should be a win unless he crits or confuse you to death, Bronzor should be easy win and do very good against Toxicroak.

Vespiquen LvL 39
-3HKO Golbat
-Wins vs Bronzor
-Wins Purugly
Comments: The Golbat fights have slowly being swifting from easy wins with PG 2HKOing into more challenging and RNG based. Supersonic is annoying and a turn without attacking swift's the battle to a loss. All thing considered I do still count them as wins since the odds of attacking etc are in your favour but the power creep is evident.
Grade: A

Vespiquen LvL 42
-1HKO Sneasel with Attack Order
-Outspeed and 2HKO Abomasnow with AO while his Avalanche is 2-3HKO depending on the range
-3HKO Froslass. In my run he missed all his Blizzards and from that point it was a free win. I assume it's a coin-flip matchup. If he hits all 3 Blizzards you lose but you can probably turn this with some misses and Heal Order. Or you can swap back and forth and then it's a free win with Power Gem.
-Loss vs Piloswine. He outspeeds and 2HKO in Hail. You do good damage though around 1/3 with AO.
Comments: While level up to level 43 you learn Destiny Bond which you can probably use to win Piloswine aswell. I chose once again not to teach it since I do believe that those playtests should examine a Pokemon's ability to win via fighting rather than trying to cheese the opponent. It is a useful move nevertheless and I can see having a lot of uses especially vs the Elite Four for taking down important threats (Garchomp I am looking at you!)
Grade: B

Vespiquen LvL 44 does very good in the Galactic HQ being able to 1-2 HKO pretty much everything while taking minimal damage. Golbats can be annoying with Confuse Ray and Air Cutter crits but you should be fine.

Vespiquen LvL 45
-win Sneasel since it's 1HKO from AO
-Probable loss vs Crobat but it can go both ways. PG is 2-3HKO depending on the range and so is his Air Cutter. He can also use Confuse Ray which is annoying and crits from AC lean the matchup towards Crobat's favour.
-Loss vs Honchkrow.
Grade: C

I do made another goof by not having a Revive for my Vespiquen so I do use a Rare Candy and some Pots but overall I don't think this change that much for the upcoming battle.

Vespiquen LvL 46
-2HKO Golbat but as stated.. he can be annoying and win the matchup.
-Easy win vs Bronzor since he can't do much.
-Toxicroak is once again a coin-flip matchup. You 3HKO after his Sitrus Berry so does he with his Poison Jab. He has a good chance to inflict poison which turns the matchup towards him.
Comments: You can swap Between Vespiquen/ Empoleon and Luxray to win easily vs Toxicroak but this is more due to Inimidate being broken.
Grade: B

I have so far being using Quick Claw on Vespiquen which I have found it's quite useful. You are pretty slow so most of the time you are being outsped but with QC you can turn those 2HKO vs 2HKO etc matchups which you would lose otherwise!

Vespiquen LvL 46
It's hard to playtests the double battle but from my runs you should be able to win vs the Bronzor leads but you struggle against the rest of their Pokemon's. Skunktank has Flamethrower Purugly can tank your hits and outspeds you and Crobats are annoying to deal with. On top of that the double battle format means that if you get focused you die pretty fast.
Grade: E


Vespiquen LvL 46
-Houndoom is loss since it outspeds and his Flamethrower is around the 1HKO range
-Gyarados 2HKOs and outspeds while you 3HKO so it's a loss.
-Weavile outspeds and 2HKOs with IP. You do 2HKO back but it's a loss.
-Honchkrow 2HKOs you while PG is 2-3HKO depending on the range so it's a loss.
-PG is 3HKO on Crobat. Air Slash is around 2HKO. If he goes for Confuse Ray/Cross Poison you can win but yeah.. probable loss.
Comments: Horrible fight her stats begin to not cut it at this point.
Grade: E or D. She can't win the 1vs1 vs any Pokemon but he can do good amounts of damage. Leaning towards E though!

Vespiquen LvL 47
-Jolteon 2HKO while AO is 3 HKO
-You can 2HKO Raichu with AO. His Charge Beam is around 2HKO.
-Luxray's Thunder fang is 3HKO so theoretically you can stall and win with AO and Toxic (which you should Re learn at this Point) other wise you lose since AO is around 4HKO
-Electivire's Thunder Punch 2HKO while AO is 3HKO so a loss.
Comments: Pretty bad gym for Vespiquen but it can put some tricky plays with Toxic and/or Destiny Bond if available. Her damage is luckluster at this point but can be used to finish of a weakened enemy since she usually can tank a hit.
Grade: D this can probably be E aswell but the fact that you can do some damage, maybe Toxic something, take a foe with you with DB and maybe Stall a dangerous move with Pressure make me lean more towards D.

That's where I am currently. I will continue to update the post as I progress.
 
Last edited:

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
Hello everyone.
I am replaying my Pokemon Platinum for nostalgia reasons and also because I want to do some RNG stuff on it. I decided to use a Vespiquen in my team since I really like it's design. The original in game tiers didn't even mention her which all things considered it's pretty unfair since Vespiquen can be a useful Pokemon. certainly fair a lot better than the other generic Bug/Flying early game bugs in other games. Here is my logs so far. I will update the post as I go.

I chose Piplup for my run as my starter. I did skip a bunch of Trainers in order not to overlevel. I did also maintained a healthy team of 4 Pokemon.
I have used this grading system to rate my battles in order to get a better picture of what she is able to do.
Grades:

A: Clean sweep or sweep with minimal Potion (items) investment

B: Sweep with item usage (>2) or KO most of the opponent’s team (>60%).

C: KO some of the opponent’s team (~50%). Unable to entirely sweep. Moderate item usage.

D: KO 1 or 2 of the opponent’s team (<50%). Moderate to extensive item usage.

E: Unable to KO any Pokemon.

My Combee: Lvl 11
View attachment 366971

Struggles to KO Zubat and loses to Purugly
Grade: D

I past my way through Eterna Forest without much trouble. Combee is a monster destroying most trainers

Vespiquen LvL 21
Cleanest sweep in my Pokemon history. You quad resist STAB Grass attacks and you 2HKO Turtwig/Cherrim with Bug Bite while Roserade is a 3HKO with Gust while she can't do much to you!
Grade: A

Vespiquen LvL 23
1HKO Zubat and can win vs Skunktank
Grade: B

Vespiquen LvL 24
-Wins Duskul but takes time. Burn is annoying
-Mismagius is a rough matchup. It is a loss but you can slowly take her down provided she isn't spamming Shadow Ball. Bug Bite is nice to steal her Sitrus Berry!
-You win Haunter easily. You tank his hit's and 3HKO it back with Power Gem.
Comments: At Level 25 you learn Heal Order so this might help you to turn the matchup vs Mismagius since you can stall her Shadow Ball PP with Pressure+Heal Order.
Grade: B-C (yet to be decided)

Vespiquen LvL 25
-Wins Staravia provided you don't miss Power Gem (which 2HKO Staravia).
-Wins Ponyta 2HKOing it with Power Gem.
-Wins Buizel 2HKO with Bug Bite.
-Wins Grotle 2-3HKO depending on the range with Gust/BB.
Grade: A

Before hitting the Gym I have a tough call if I want to teach my Vespiquen Toxic or not. With Pressure+Heal order + Toxic is would become a great tank Pokemon but I decide to pass since Gust is important for the upcoming fight/ Bug Bite is a no brainer/Heal Order is amazing and Power Gem provides with important coverage!

Vespiquen LvL 30
-
2HKO Meditate but I am also 2HKOed back from Rock Tomb.
-2HKO Machoke but Rock Tomb 2HKOes me back.
-Can tank Lucario and win with no problem.
Comments: The battle is actually a lot trickier than it seems and it's all about whether her Meditate (and her Machoke) goes for Rock Tomb or not. You can't win if she spams it since the speed drop iss game changing. After one Rock Tomb I am outspeed by her Machoke. If she opts for other moves you have an easy time winning.
Grade: C (maybe D)

Vespiquen LvL 32
-2HKO Staravia with PG (Wing Attack is 3HKO)
-2HKO Ponyta with PG (Ember is 3HKO)
-3HKO Grotle with BB
-Easy win vs Buizel (2HKO with BB)
Grade: A

Vespiquen LvL 33
-Gyarados is a rough matchup. You can PP stall him with Heal Order and PG does good amounts of damage but he has a 3HKO with Waterfall and Bite/Waterfall can all flinch you which makes PP stalling harder to pull off.
-Quagsire has Rock Tomb which is around the 2HKO. Once again you have to PP stall and maybe hope he misses RT.
-Floatzel has Ice Fang which does more than your BB and outspeeds you so it's a loss..unless you PP stall again.
Comments: Overall not a great Gym for Vespiquen. She has to pull out some PP stall tactics in order to win the 1vs1 and even then a flinch or a crit will ruin your day. It can diss out some solid damage so she is able to contribute at least something. If I had chosen to go for Toxic she might be able to Stall some of those Pokemon better and maybe win some of the 1vs1 more easily.
Grade: D

Vespiquen LvL 36
-2HKO Sneasel
-3HKO Golbat
-Loss vs Murkrow since it outspeeds me and Drill Peck does more than my PG.
Grade: B

Vespiquen LvL 37
-
win vs Staraptor since PG is 2HKo while Aerial Ace is 3HKO!
-PG 2HKO Rapidash (he opted to use Take down)
-win vs Heracross since I tank his Aerial Ace and 2HKO it back
-win vs Tortera
-win vs Floatzel with Attack Order
Grade: A

Vespiquen LvL 38
As expected you can't touch his Pokemon and they all destroy you!
Grade: E

That's where I am currently. I will continue to update the post as I progress.
Pretty neat view on Vespiquen so far! It’s certainly far better than the other fully evolved Bug / Flying introduced in Gen 4, Mothim, and has a surprisingly good match-ups against most important NPCs once evolved from a female Combee.

There are two major problems that would cause it to fall into D or even E / F, though.
  1. Honey Trees as a mechanic is already excessively time-consuming, and Combee have a 40% of appearing in Group B (DP) / Group A (Platinum) or 20% in Group A (DP) / Group B (Platinum), or a mere 22% (DP) / 32% (Platinum) if not applied.
  2. Adding to all that, Combee have a 87.5% male, 12.5% female gender ratio and only female can evolve into Vespiquen; male Combee cannot evolve at all.
This involve a very heavy amount of both time and luck just to get a female Combee. This is a similar case with Munchlax and how it negatively impacted against it.

tl;dr - Vespiquen is good, but Combee’s evolution condition + gender ratio and method of obtaintion = horrid availability caused more harm than good for its tiering.
 
Pretty neat view on Vespiquen so far! It’s certainly far better than the other fully evolved Bug / Flying introduced in Gen 4, Mothim, and has a surprisingly good match-ups against most important NPCs once evolved from a female Combee.

There are two major problems that would cause it to fall into D or even E / F, though.
  1. Honey Trees as a mechanic is already excessively time-consuming, and Combee have a 40% of appearing in Group B (DP) / Group A (Platinum) or 20% in Group A (DP) / Group B (Platinum), or a mere 22% (DP) / 32% (Platinum) if not applied.
  2. Adding to all that, Combee have a 87.5% male, 12.5% female gender ratio and only female can evolve into Vespiquen; male Combee cannot evolve at all.
This involve a very heavy amount of both time and luck just to get a female Combee. This is a similar case with Munchlax and how it negatively impacted against it.

tl;dr - Vespiquen is good, but Combee’s evolution condition + gender ratio and method of obtaintion = horrid availability caused more harm than good for its tiering.
You can soft reset once you have found a Combee to get a female one so the only main problem is finding a Combee in the first place. It can be annoying since you only have access to 2-3 Honey Trees if you want to get it as soon as possible but it's not that bad. Plus you can probably change the DS clock etc and speed up the process!
 
Again, these lists aren’t meant for speed runs or anything, the casual players using them will just do whatever they have to get the Pokémon they want to use. If they have to leave the DS in sleep mode overnight then they’ll do it. We shouldn’t penalise Pokémon too hard for unique mechanics like that. Keep the focus on how that Pokémon performs and players can decide whether the method to obtain them is worth the trouble or not.
 
Probably should have updated before now but life happens you know.

nuzlocke-1816baec-3512-48c0-b08d-2fe23f7e355e.png

Probably a bit too much for the Cyrus fight but things quickly evened out with Byron and his level 41 ace.

Most of my grinding was done on route 210 against Ace Trainer Ernest with his 32/31/34 Scyther/Probopass/Luxio team with the occasional double battle against Zac and Jen with their level 36 Raichu and Gyarados.

Still a wrecking ball, Earthquake and Wood Hammer rip through everything that doesn't resist them. Still very slow.

Was starting to drop off like Eevee before evolving. Now hits really, really hard, almost like when I first got her, and is a bit bulkier as well.

Still dropping off. Cannot wait until he finally evolves, maybe then he'll be able to contribute properly again.

Still really wishes that his main stab had more than 5 PP. Will probably go back to being useful for more than just Toxic and type advantages once he finally gets Bug Buzz.

Still very bulky but could really have done with a more powerful attack then Rock Slide, which I eventually got it.

Choice Specs Thunder is a nuclear weapon at this point in the game so long as they aren't immune. Shock Wave and Ominus Wind also hit very hard.

After getting my team up to scratch I went to face Cyrus again. It was a slaughter. Lopunny 1 hit Sneasel with Focus Blast, Probopass buried Golbat with Rock Slide and Rotom took out Murkrow with Shock Wave. It was at this point I decided not to fight any more trainers before Canalave Gym if I could help it, something I mostly managed as I surfed over to Canalave after a quick stop at Veilstone to pick up Thunder for Probopass. Once I got there it was time for Rival...4? IDK. Not the point. The point is that, even though his levels were mostly on par with mine, I dealt with him really easily. Staraptor didn't have a way past Probopass and got lightning dropped on his head, Heracross surprised Dustox with Aerial Ace before Rotom hit him with a Shock Wave, Psybeam having done enough to make sure it was a ko, Torterra smashed Floatzel aside with Wood Hammer, Roserade was completely incapable of doing meaningful damage to Dustox who hit back with super effective Psybeams and finally, we reached Infernape. Before the battle he was, by some distance, my biggest worry as my team really doesn't like fire or fighting. Rotom took a flame wheel, survived, then nuked it with Thunder, taking out most of his hp. Torterra finished him off with Earthquake.

After my victory, Barry tells me to head to Iron Island, so that's what I do. It's kinda boring there, really, as I manage to avoid trainers for the most part while also completely staying out of the mess thos Riley character has gotten himself into. The only thing of note is that I picked up Iron Tail and gave it to Lopunny over Quick Attack, as she's fast enough that most of the time she won't need it. With the only bits of Iron Island I'm going to do right now cleaned up it's time for the Canalave Gym. It's... really, really easy despite being round about my level. Everyone but Dustox and Rotom has a super effective move and Rotom is strong enough that he doesn't need one, smashing through the Scizor that was the only pokemon of note before Byron with Thunder. Even Eevee was doing work, taking out the many Magnemite with Dig. Byron was as simple as the rest, Eevee takes a chunk out of Magneton with Dig, Lopunny finishes with Focus Blast before softening up Steelix with the same for Rotom to clean up with Ominous Wind, then Torterra breaks Bastiodon with Earthquake. As I leave the gym Barry is waiting for me and tells me to head to Canalave Library, whre a nice conversation with Professor Rowan about seeing the legendary pokemon of the lakes is interrupted by an explosion at Lake Valor, which Rowan demands I go and check out, so off we go!

...I forgot to get healing items. Guess I'm heading back to Veilstone for a second.

And then Probopass gets knocked out because I forgot to heal. At least I got plenty of revives.

The grunts are easy once I heal up, Probopass alone being more than capable of powering through them. Saturn is quite a bit harder, bringing down Probopass and nearly doing the same to Dustox, but it still takes just the 2 of them to power over his Golbat, Bronzor and Toxicroak. Given how he, and the rest of the team, were bragging about their success at Lake Verity I head over, correctly deducing that's where I have to go next.
The first 2 grunts go down quickly to Rotom, with Eevee tagging along to pick up some experience in preparation for his evolution into Glaceon.
The next 2 get batted aside by a combination of Probopass' Rock Slide and Torterra's Wood Hammer. Mars is a similar story. Golbat is shocked into submission by Probopass, Bronzor goes down easily to Lopunny after I send out all my pokemon to stop Eevee from leveling up after I accidentally sent him out and then Torterra clashes with Purugly once again, this time making it past without massive amounts of overkill. Leech Seed steadily sapped its hp while Earthquake took out chunks whenever Torterra was awake. Unfortunately it was too little too late, as Team Galactic had already captured Mesprit and ended up getting away, so after a quick stop in Celestic Town to swap Torterra for Bibarel I head north to see if Barry is alright.

Maylene, why are you walking barefoot in the snow? You're going to get sick. You probably are sick if that sneeze was anything to go off.

There's ninjas. Why is there ninjas.

And Boreas is finally a Glaceon. My team is complete. He's looking good already, mopping up the local trainers pretty easily with a combination of Blizzard and Shadow Ball.

I can't get up to where Barry is without Rock Climb and I can't use Rock Climb without the Snowpoint City badge, so that's my next stop. Good thing I have lots of Pokémon that are good against Ice, including finally giving Probopass Flash Cannon. Flash Cannon, by the way, turns Probopass into a monster. The only reason he didn't beat the gym on his own is because I didn't let him. He ripped through the trainers like they were nothing but when it came to Candice I decided to give the others a chance. Lopunny knocked out Sneasel after Aerial Ace caught Dustox by surprise, Dutox proceded to outlast Abomasnow in a battle that only lasted as long as it did because I was worried about being caught by a boosted Avalanche so I stalled it with Toxic and Moonlight rather than going on the offence, Glaceon took out Piloswine with Blizzard + Shadow Ball before going 1 on 1 with Frosslass, who is the most annoying Pokémon I have fought in any gym. Who thought giving a Pokémon with Snow Cloak, who will almost certainly be in hail, Double Team was a good idea? Because it wasn't and they deserve a slap.

After a quick stop in Canalave so I can teach Bibarel Rock Climb over Cut, I go up to Lake Acuity to find that Barry's fine but Uxie isn't. Jupiter tells me not to bother going to the Veilstone HQ which is just begging for me to do so, so after a couple of quick stops to grab TMs - Psychic for Dustox and Ice Beam for Glaceon - that's where I head. Except as it turns out, I need to go to their warehouse first.

Galactic is galactic, pushovers as always, but I do manage to pick up Sludge Bomb while making my way through ther hideout. That's my teams movesets almost complete, just need Dustox to hit level 41 so he learns Bug Buzz. At least he's finally got a bug power move now, and one with a decent amount of PP at that. With the Galactic Key in hand I head for the main building.

I forgot to heal again.

After witnessing just how much of a cult leader Cyrus is, I continue making my way through Galactic HQ. It's pathetically easy. The first one who's a challenge is Cyrus himself and even then, he's pretty easy. Dustox brings Sneasel to the edge, twice, before Crobat knocks him out with a crit Air Cutter, btu Glaceon quickly avenges him. A Full Restore isn't enough to stop Probopass from 2 shotting Sneasel and Thunder is a 3 shot on Honchkrow who, unlike me, doesn't focus on his best move. Using Faint Attack instead of Night Shade is all the opening I need to knock him out with Flash Cannon. A bigger challenge is the rematch with Saturn, as unlike Cyrus I was not expecting it and therefore was unprepared. Golbat goes down to Lopunny pretty easy and Glaceon 3 hit Bronzor with Shadow Ball when the best it could muster in return was 6 with Gyro Ball, but my only reliable answer to Toxicroak was Dustox and he was KOd. I ended up letting Probopass and Torterra take the fall to get him back to full, where he 2 shot Toxi through the Sitrus Berry while only being 3 hit in return. Both Cyrus and Saturn made it clear that my next target is the peak of Mt. Coronet, but that's for later when I'm not as tired and have decided who I'm going to be leaving behind for my HM Slave.

Post galactic hideout.png


C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

Dustox needs Silver Wind and Sludge Bomb, and benefits greatly from Psychic and Toxic. Luckily, not much else needs these TMs. It's not going to be the fastest at getting knockouts, and it's not going to be a tank that takes everything while you heal the rest of your team, but Dustox can absolutely be a strongly contributing member of your team so long as you know what it brings to the table : A surprising amount of bulk, the ability to pick off pokemon that it resists and Toxic to be a spanner in the works. It's not, and never will be, the best option, but it's a solid one.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

Drops off quite a bit before evolution, which is not quite as much of a power boost as you'd like, but it's still strong and fast with a STAB that is going to be very strong by the time it evolves. Still very much a glass cannon. Still very much a usable pokémon.

A-Tier
These Pokémon are highly efficient and well-recommended but have minor flaws that prevent them from being broken such as a crippling matchup, availability issues or a weak period without absolute dominance afterward.

Torterra is still Torterra. Still a slow, bulky hammer that makes everything look like a nail. Curse is still a really good way over things that can't hi#urt you badly, although I didn't use it in this bit, and his slowness and weakness to some fairly common typer in this part of the game like Ice and Flying make it tough at times, especially since the latter often comes packaged with Poison to make it extra resistent to Torterra's only move that can hit it. Have personally seen no reason to change the ranking.

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

Still frail, the unreliable Thunder is the only move that is truly good enough and it still has rubbish coverage. I should probably have given him Shadow Ball and backtracked for Water Pulse for Glaceon. I imagine without the Choice Specs it would be having an even harder time. One upside is that unlike Glaceon's Blizzard, Thunder has 10 PP. I guess Gamefreak were worried about just how powerful freeze is. I'm considering going to the windworks to pick up Thunderbolt.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

It takes a while for Probo to have proper attacking moves off his better stat, the unreliable Thunder being your best option until after Byron, but once you do it will very much start pulling its weight, helped of course by the fact that it has a typer advantage over the next gym. As I said above, if I hadn't benched her to give some others a chance to impress she could probably have taken the whole of Snowpoint Gym solo. Unfortunately it is very average up until then, with nothing to make it standout.

Has Snow Cloak, not Adaptability.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

When you get Eevee, it's not very useful. It has no strong STAB, although that can be changed by getting Secret Power from Amity Pary, and it will be 2 gyms before it can really contribute. With Adaptability It will rip up trainers up until you get to about Route 210, more specifically the bit north of the Psyduck, but you will notice its lack of bulk before then and it becomes really noticeable when the damage drops off. If you give it dig then it can also help out in Canalave Gym, taking out the Magnemite that are scattered about, as well as the grounded Poisons in Galactic, but overall it's going to need to be carried a bit between Pastoria and Route 217. Have a Blizzard tm waiting, though, and once it evolves it will almost certainly be your heaviest hitter. You're going to want to backtrack to Route 216 and get it Ice Beam, but while a stong neutral move like Shadow Ball or a weaker super effective one like Water Pulse would be nice for rocks, that's all it really needs and nothing else is desperate for them.
 
Has Snow Cloak, not Adaptability.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

When you get Eevee, it's not very useful. It has no strong STAB, although that can be changed by getting Secret Power from Amity Pary, and it will be 2 gyms before it can really contribute. With Adaptability It will rip up trainers up until you get to about Route 210, more specifically the bit north of the Psyduck, but you will notice its lack of bulk before then and it becomes really noticeable when the damage drops off. If you give it dig then it can also help out in Canalave Gym, taking out the Magnemite that are scattered about, as well as the grounded Poisons in Galactic, but overall it's going to need to be carried a bit between Pastoria and Route 217. Have a Blizzard tm waiting, though, and once it evolves it will almost certainly be your heaviest hitter. You're going to want to backtrack to Route 216 and get it Ice Beam, but while a stong neutral move like Shadow Ball or a weaker super effective one like Water Pulse would be nice for rocks, that's all it really needs and nothing else is desperate for them.
This is like the third post other than mine I've seen on this thread alone to advocate for Glaceon at least D if not C tier. In fact on the last page of the old thread there is yet another argument for Glaceon deserving D tier. OP, I know it's your call and you disagree with that assessment, but hoping you'll reconsider. There seems to be quite a bit of anecdotal evidence to support this.

Not to rehash the details, but the biggest selling point for Glaceon in my opinion is winning the Cynthia Garchomp matchup 1v1. According to my analysis there are four Pokémon who can reliably do that at level 50, the other three being Gyarados, Vaporeon and Mamoswine. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

I can see a scenario where someone opts not to choose Gyarados or Vaporeon as their Water type in this game, which is fairly common to do in favor of say for example Gastrodon, Floatzel or Emploeon. In which case Glaceon becomes one of two real options to counter Cynthia's Garchomp since many will opt not to double up on Water types.

Anyway, if OP still disagrees that's fine. Just thought to make this point one last time since a few others seem to agree.
 
This is like the third post other than mine I've seen on this thread alone to advocate for Glaceon at least D if not C tier. In fact on the last page of the old thread there is yet another argument for Glaceon deserving D tier. OP, I know it's your call and you disagree with that assessment, but hoping you'll reconsider. There seems to be quite a bit of anecdotal evidence to support this.

Not to rehash the details, but the biggest selling point for Glaceon in my opinion is winning the Cynthia Garchomp matchup 1v1. According to my analysis there are four Pokémon who can reliably do that at level 50, the other three being Gyarados, Vaporeon and Mamoswine. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

I can see a scenario where someone opts not to choose Gyarados or Vaporeon as their Water type in this game, which is fairly common to do in favor of say for example Gastrodon, Floatzel or Emploeon. In which case Glaceon becomes one of two real options to counter Cynthia's Garchomp since many will opt not to double up on Water types.

Anyway, if OP still disagrees that's fine. Just thought to make this point one last time since a few others seem to agree.
I did actually include Glaceon in my original list of Pokemon that deserve a raise, but Volt didn't go through with that suggestion in this thread. I think the reason for that is that we only have anecdotal evidence so far, which is a fair reason to me. I personally think it's a pretty safe move to put Glaceon in D tier for now, but it would be nice to have some actual logs to back it up first. Honestly, I'm pretty confident that Glaceon will move up at some point though.

I also want to mention that you might be overselling the Garchomp machup a little bit. Sure, Garchomp is the strongest single Pokemon you can face in the game, but at the end of the day, it's still just one Pokemon on one trainer. Having a positive matchup against Garchomp doesn't matter that much if Glaceon is bad everywhere else. And that's precisely why we need logs, to see how it performs in matchups other than "the Garchomp matchup".
 
I also want to mention that you might be overselling the Garchomp machup a little bit. Sure, Garchomp is the strongest single Pokemon you can face in the game, but at the end of the day, it's still just one Pokemon on one trainer. Having a positive matchup against Garchomp doesn't matter that much if Glaceon is bad everywhere else. And that's precisely why we need logs, to see how it performs in matchups other than "the Garchomp matchup".
In fairness Glaceon also picks up wins against Cyrus's Crobat and Honchkrow, and that's a reasonably difficult battle though nowhere near Cynthia's.

The reason I keep citing "Cynthia's Garchomp matchup" and just Cynthia matchups in general is that I see it as the highest weighted battle in this game. Platinum Cynthia and HGSS Lance are the two battles in the series which, in my view, warrant heightened consideration. As in, they're so hard that performing well in those battles should greatly increase a Pokémon's stock, and performing poorly should greatly decrease it. This is just from my experience that I think even casual players can navigate most other parts of the games, but those two fights require actual planning. That's just my philosophy, you can feel free to disagree.

As for Cynthia I see her having four difficult matchups: her Garchomp, Lucario, Togekiss and Milotic. There are only a handful of viable Pokémon that can win each of these matchups 1v1 per my analysis. Which is why when there is one that can (Glaceon vs. Garchomp) it warrants higher placement. That was my reasoning.
 
I have reached a conclusion : I will be sidelining Siri the Rotom for my MH slave Bibarel as it is so frail, not that much stronger than Glaceon and can't outspeed the pokémon it matters to outspeed without powerleveling.

After a quick stop at Veilstone department store to refill on the healing items I used during my attack on the headquarters I deposist Rotom and his Choice Specs in the PC for Staravia, so that I can get to Oreburgh quickly, then swap him out for Bibarel once I get there. He's not going to be missed that much I think, especially as I've been saving the Rare Candies I've found incase whoever I ended up dropping got a bit left behind, though I doubt that'll happen.

Dustox's third battle in Mt. Coronet and it gets one hit. Admittably, it was by a crit, super effective STAB but that I was in a battle at all despite a repel means you're probably meant to be higher level here.

Mt. Coronet is confusing. On the first outside section there's like three caves you can go in that aren't the right one. In the right cave Dustox faces a grunt with 2 Houndour and a Golbat that pushes him over the edge - he's now level 41 and has finished his moveset. Now if only PP restoring items weren't so rare.

And I went the wrong way again. Do you think they were delibrately trying to mislead players by putting Galactic members in a place you don't need to go?

Lots of Galactic grunts on the way up try and stop me, all get brushed aside by whoever is currently the lowest levelled member of my team until they're all equal. The only ones that were enough to even count as annoyances were the ones with Golbats and even that was only because Torterra's best move against them is probably Leech Seed.

Oh hey look Bibarel got a battle! I sacked because they only pokemon I had that wouldn't mind being hit by Earthquake was Torterra, who was using Earthquake. Now it's time for the first notable battle of this sequence : You + Rival v Planet sisters.

Since when has Skuntank had Flamethrower? It wasn't enough to stop Glaceon, but I was not expecting that. Also Skuntank is surprisingly bulky. While the Sitrus Berry helped it still took 2 Blizzards, 2 Body Slams and 2 rounds of Hail damage to bring down, though Glaceon was 5 levels lower.
After that the only noteworthy thing was Purugly going down without me hitting it, instead taking the time to heal up.

And Cyrus gets kidnapped by Giratina. Guess he doesn't like the idea of a world without spirit. You know, I think this is actually the first time I've actually been in the distortion world. Don't think I've ever beat Platinum before, just Diamond and Pearl.

After far too much looking up where to go, it's time for the last Cyrus fight and I do not get off to a good start. Glaceon v Houndoom is... no. Switch out to Probopass, tank the hit, 2HKO with Rock Slide as he misses Will o Wisp. Second is Gyarados, which I would really liked to have Rotom for as nothing I have wants to fight it. My eventual strategy was let Probopass take the Earthquake as I heal Torterra, get off a Leech Seed as he Ice Fangs me and then just keep healing until Leech Seed has drained him enough that I'm confident in Lopunnys ability to knock him out. It worked.

Honchkrow has Heat Wave. Why does Honchkrow have Heat Wave. It wasn't enough to knock out Glaceon, who proceded to one shot him with Ice Beam, but still. Why does Honchkrow get Heat Wave.

Weavile is far less dangerous than you'd expect something 5 levels higher than my highest to be, as Shield Dust prevents Flinching and Bug Buzz is a 2HKO despite the 7 level gap between it and Dustox. Which makes Cyrus switch into Crobat, who is a problem Pokémon as my answers to fast fliers are either not here, injured or KO'd. Solution : Switch in Lopunny, Max Revive Probopass, heal Dustox in preparation for Weavile, knock out Crobat with Thunder. With that it's time to finish off the madman and despite a nervy moment where a low roll made it look like Weavile might get up from 2, Cyrus goes down. Now for Giratina.

Get fucked you psycho snake. Glaceon starts, takes the Ancientpower, then one hits through the boost with crit Ice Beam which, due to the way crits worked, means that it would be at worst a 2HKO.

With Giratina beat we leave for what ends up being Sendoff Spring and Cynthia tells me that I should probably go reassure Rowan that I'm alright, so after heading to Veilstone to grab Staravia for Fly, Sandgem is where I go, and then it's onto Sunnyshore City for my eigth and final badge.After I pick up Rotom.

Is Torterra surprisingly fast or Luxray surprisingly slow? Or do they learn like Roar or another negative priority move by level up? Because I was not expect Torterra to move first.

Upon arriving at Sunnyshore Elite 4 member Flint tells me that the gym leader hasn't really been passionate about battling recently and challenges me to give him a battle intense enough to get him fired up again, which I think is a pretty good place to leave it for now.

View attachment 367549

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

Starting to feel its lack of HP a bit, so dropping towards D. Bug Buzz and Sludge Bomb were much needed upgrades to its STAB movepool and Psychic meant it was surprisingly useful against Galactic, as their Golbats couldn't 2HKO with Air Cutter while being 2HKO's in return, and their Croagunk got 1 shot. Unfortunately their isn't much utility left for Psychic, of the big battles there's only Aaron, Cynthia and technically Flint that have something weak to Psychic, but I think putting 5 TM's on one pokemon, even if none of them are in that high demand, is a bit much, so I'm probably not going to be putting Giga Drain on him.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

Like I said before, evolution isn't the power boost you'd really want it to be especially if you overestimate its bulk and let it get KO'd, as that will make return weaker. Still very dangerous under the right circumstances, but not to the level it was when caught.

A-Tier
These Pokémon are highly efficient and well-recommended but have minor flaws that prevent them from being broken such as a crippling matchup, availability issues or a weak period without absolute dominance afterward.

Torterra is still Torterra. Still a slow, bulky hammer that makes everything look like a nail. Really like the fact that with no more Galactic there are less Golbats to wall it. Really likes the fact that the next gym is electric. Really likes the fact that we're past the Ice types. Really just likes this section of the game, inbetween the Spear Pillar incident and the Elite 4. Leech Seed is a very useful move for getting past things you'd otherwise have no answer to, as Full Restores don't get rid of it.

Didn't battle, so I'll just C/P from last time

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

Still frail, the unreliable Thunder is the only move that is truly good enough and it still has rubbish coverage. I should probably have given him Shadow Ball and backtracked for Water Pulse for Glaceon. I imagine without the Choice Specs it would be having an even harder time. One upside is that unlike Glaceon's Blizzard, Thunder has 10 PP. I guess Gamefreak were worried about just how powerful freeze is. I'm considering going to the windworks to pick up Thunderbolt.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

Flash Cannon is a great, reliable STAB move. Rock Slide hits hard when it's got a type advantage. Thunder is a very powerful move that hits a lot of what Flash Cannon doesn't. Its bulk is still very good considering it will normally be anywhere from 2 to 5 levels lower than what it's up against. It occurs to me that I have an essentially free moveslot as Earthquake is very rarely the best option and Stealth Rock would cause pretty big problems for 2 of the Elite 4. I'm probably going to give it to her.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

Ice Beam hits hard off of the Icicle plate. Blizzard hits like a truck off the Icicle Plate. Glaceon takes a while to really get going after that initial period where Adapt-Secretpower is a truck drops off, but once it picks back up it is back to causing all sorts of problems. Probably my hardest hitter overall as while Specs Thunder will always be a hammer it is coming off a significantly lower special attack and neither Shock Wave nor Ominous Wind are anything to write home about.
 
Currently using Hippopotas in my Pearl run and even though I’m probably not doing a ‘totally efficient’ run I wanted to give some thoughts about it. Currently just entered Canalave.

Positives:
+Great physical bulk and decent special bulk
+Nice attack with Bite (later Crunch) and Take Down/Strength (Take Down is stronger but Strength is more accurate and doesn’t recoil)
+Sand Stream is nice for chip damage
+You can get one before Badge 3, though you may want to MGS past trainers on the way there so you can train Hippo on them later

Negatives:
-Slow
-Sand Tomb sucks as STAB despite the chip damage
-Sand Stream damages your own teammates too unless their fellow Ground, Rock (recommended due to weakness overlap) or Steel-type, or Magic Guard Clefairy
-Rare unless you like catching Unown
-Loses out on a positive matchup in Platinum

As for major fights, it can probably contribute in the Veilstone Gym due to tanking physical hits, but Lucario is not recommended despite the theoretical type advantage (Sand Tomb does not a good matchup make), Pastoria Gym is a no, and Hippo eats Hearthome Gym for breakfast (almost literally, since it’ll be using Bite/Crunch), though watch out for some special attacks.
 
Very surprised to find Psyduck in B tier. Granted this was the gen that FINALLY gave it early water stab with Water Gun, but I'd have thought him high C at the max due to the notably average sub 100 base stats as Golduck
Anyone fill me in on how it performs to warrant B?
A lot of these are still based on the old thread, so we don't know for sure. Lemme check its movepool real quick...

To be fair, I'm not seeing anything that particularly stands out here. Psychic coverage isn't that important anymore and the TM is late af anyway.
That is a good question, why is it at B? Looks like the typical mon that falls off a cliff late-game, if not even before.
early choice specs w/ surf + ice beam allows it to nuke most of the e4 and perform really well against cynthia. the extra 15 spa gives it a nice advantage over tentacool/cruel for this reason which is in C, so naturally Psyduck should remain in B.
 
early choice specs w/ surf + ice beam allows it to nuke most of the e4 and perform really well against cynthia. the extra 15 spa gives it a nice advantage over tentacool/cruel for this reason which is in C, so naturally Psyduck should remain in B.
Plus getting Psy lvl 40 means little time to evolve means I can accept it to preform decently in theory...
But how about in practice?
 
Plus getting Psy lvl 40 means little time to evolve means I can accept it to preform decently in theory...
But how about in practice?

from 17:05 onward here you'll see Golduck pulling it's weight in an otherwise difficult nuzlocke (mon availability is very limited due this particular ruleset).

other notable timestamps:

34:31 for the E4

note that he plays using the level cap of the 4th E4 members ace so he is slightly overleveled for Aaron (granted many of these calcs even assuming a lv 52 Golduck are still valid). Bertha and flint are obviously a joke and just use 10 surf pp. Lucian is tough bc gallade carries leaf blade and zam energy ball (as well as tbolt + light screen from mr mime). however, it can 1v1 espeon and zong quite easily.

for Cynthia: spiritomb is a ohko-2hko depending on level with specs surf. gastrodon/togekiss always go down to 2 surfs. Lucario dies to surf. chomp/Roserade to ice beam. only thing you can't beat is milotic due to mirror coat and CM not being available until post game.
 
note that he plays using the level cap of the 4th E4 members ace so he is slightly overleveled for Aaron
Level range of the E4 is so wide that it's reasonable to both be overleveled for Aaron and Bertha and be underleveled for Lucian and Cynthia depending on how much you're willing to grind in Gen 4 engine.

There's really no problem.
 
I battle every possible trainer and do not grind against wild Pokémon. In Platinum with a team of six, mix of Med Slow/Med Fast EXP Pokémon, not using any Rare Candies, I end up on average level 50 in time for the Cynthia fight. Running Cynthia matchup calcs with your Pokémon at level 50 seems pretty reasonable to me.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

On to new Horizons!
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I am not sure if Vs. Seeker counts for this but based on my experiences using a fixed group of six without wild grinding but instead using all possible Trainer rematches (only rematching Trainers who level up per story and level curve) combined with using the Pokemon Center Trainers once per every time they level up my team ends up around 50-52 in terms of level by the time I reach the League, and around 51-53 for Cynthia. So Low 50s is the likely scenario of where you'll end up, even if you use the Vs. Seeker a lot (which is what the game seemingly wants you to do, but regardless) and rematch all Trainers who level up with the game's progress.
 
I am not sure if Vs. Seeker counts for this but based on my experiences using a fixed group of six without wild grinding but instead using all possible Trainer rematches (only rematching Trainers who level up per story and level curve) combined with using the Pokemon Center Trainers once per every time they level up my team ends up around 50-52 in terms of level by the time I reach the League, and around 51-53 for Cynthia. So Low 50s is the likely scenario of where you'll end up, even if you use the Vs. Seeker a lot (which is what the game seemingly wants you to do, but regardless) and rematch all Trainers who level up with the game's progress.
I don't rematch trainers because I find it hard to draw the line as to how many rematches would be considered fair or acceptable. Not even from a testing perspective, just in my own head. But I don't know if there is a policy or rule regarding that.

I should also say that I usually have around four of my six Pokémon by Gardenia in Platinum, five out of six by Fantina, and normally all six by Wake. As you can tell, I like to get my Pokémon pretty early so that might lower my average endgame levels by one or two.
 
don't rematch trainers because I find it hard to draw the line as to how many rematches would be considered fair or acceptable. Not even from a testing perspective, just in my own head. But I don't know if there is a policy or rule regarding that.
Nope. If at any point you decide you *need* to grind, just do what you find more efficient.

I should also say that I usually have around four of my six Pokémon by Gardenia in Platinum, five out of six by Fantina, and normally all six by Wake. As you can tell, I like to get my Pokémon pretty early so that might lower my average endgame levels by one or two.
Pretty similar to me.

Honestly, like I said before, as long as you're clear about how you're tackling the game, people will be able to have their own informed opinions about everything.

Everyone knows there's a massive spike between Victory Road and Cynthia. There's also a big problem with how wide the level spectrum is on the E4.

There's really no problem if some level issues arise there. All I ask is transparency.
 
Combee should not be C Tier
It's a Honey mon ,and Honey is very time consuming, if you know why Heracross has been placed in F Tier, then you will know that combee should not be C Tier
 
Advocating for Combee staying in C, very usable. While it falters toward the endgame due to the defensive type and Bug being a bleh offensive STAB, I think it puts in solid work during the midgame bosses to be C. Also gender is soft-resettable, don't sleep on Combee.
 
Combee should not be C Tier
It's a Honey mon ,and Honey is very time consuming, if you know why Heracross has been placed in F Tier, then you will know that combee should not be C Tier
The high % encounters are extremely easy to get and Plat gives you 10 Honey to soft-reset for a female with.
Vespiquen boasts a good matchup against Plat Fantina, who is one of the hardest bosses in the franchise.

People that have tested it endorsed it for C. It's probably much worse on DP though.
 
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