DPPt In-Game Tier List Thread v2

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Pokémon Diamond, Pearl and Platinum In-Game Tier List Thread v2

This thread aims to foster discussion on what are the best options to experience the grace and opulence of Sinnoh. For that purpose, the available Pokémon will be ranked in six tiers.

Do keep in mind that these descriptions aren't exactly rules, but merely a guideline.
What is a rule, however, is that a Pokémon's tier is not relative to one another. Each mon will earn their ranks on their own.

S-Tier
These Pokémon don't just stand at the top, they go beyond the scale and are extremely efficient. There is no point they'll be dead weight, and if there is, they'll just destroy the game afterward like RBY Alakazam. Do NOT treat this as merely "Top Tier", these Pokémon go even further beyond.

A-Tier
These Pokémon are highly efficient and well-recommended but have minor flaws that prevent them from being broken such as a crippling matchup, availability issues or a weak period without absolute dominance afterward.

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

D-Tier
These Pokémon are decent. They'll have significant flaws but will get you to the endgame provided with the proper support.

E-Tier
These Pokémon are bad. You will have to drag them kicking and screaming to the endgame, but they will get there eventually. I think.

F-Tier
These Pokémon are as efficient and fun to use as doing a Wynaut solo run. Not even Wobbuffet. Everstone Wynaut. No Leftovers for passive healing.


There are several criteria that define a Pokémon's In-Game Viability. Similarly, this isn't a checklist, just a guideline.

Availability: This is how early a Pokémon becomes available in the game, with relevant factors such as encounter rate, level, backtracking, and significant HM usage also being considered.

Typing: A Pokémon's typing can make the difference between whether or not it has a positive matchup or even a section of the game where it struggles, such as RSE's infamous "Too much water" section where you will face problems if your Pokémon can't effectively deal with Water-types.

Stats: Rather self-explanatory. Good stats are good, and naturally they have a big influence on a Pokémon's viability.

Movepool: A Pokémon's movepool is of great importance to whether or not it is truly able to be used to its full potential. TMs and HMs are allowed, but there are penalties for overreliance on highly contested TMs since the mon gets a cost associated to them to reach satisfying results.

Major Battles: Major battles consist of Gym Leaders, the Elite 4, Rival, and higher-ranked Villain operatives such as the Admins.
Granted, Sinnoh graces veterans with several difficult trainers outside of those, but they're not as impactful or memorable as anyone with a unique sprite.

Other: Factors like Evolution methods, abilities, and the like.

To avoid any potential issues, some rules and guidelines will be established so that newcomers can understand how this kind of tier works.

This list is NOT Speedrun-oriented.

Think about an efficient run as a casual run. You're picking up a game to have fun and clear it within a reasonable timeframe. The main question this thread answers is: "Which mons are going to get me to the post-game with the least hassle?"


The standard for In-Game Tier Lists assume the player runs four Pokémon.

However, this is a guideline, anywhere between 4~6 is fine. Do keep in mind that 3 or less Pokémon are prone to be overleveled and therefore render their test results ineligible.


Deliberately overleveling is strictly prohibited.

It's understandable if you wind up fighting too many trainers and get one or two levels ahead of a non-Gym Leader major battle. It is not to deliberately do so. In the case it happens, even if it's just one level, let the thread know so it'll be taken into account.


Be transparent and honest with your routing.

The Sinnoh games are the only ones in the series where there is a clear incentive to beat all trainers. Beating all of them guarantees you'll have seen all Pokémons and therefore unlock the National Dex at the end of the game.
This list does not account for that, however, it is understandable if you wish to do so and still contribute. Just make sure to let the thread know that you're beating all trainers and don't overlevel.

As a general rule of thumb, the more information you provide about your run, the better people can evaluate your testing results.

Similarly, if appliable, it is important to tell whether or not a Pokémon got vitamins, Rare Candies and the like, which leads to this rule...


Dumping non-renewable resources on one Pokémon is considered highly inefficient for the purposes of this list.

There are obvious reasons for that. The first is that if you're dumping resources on one mon, the other three will be just sitting on their thumbs. The other is that these inherently create a distortion of the Pokémon's real performance, which makes your test results inconclusive.
TMs are allowed, but if a Pokémon relies on too many one-use TMs to be efficient, that's obviously a problem.


X-Items are banned.

Similarly to the above, they distort test results by mixing an external factor to give a Pokémon a boost it wouldn't normally get.
I don't care how cheap or efficient they are, they're essentially the equivalent to steroids.


Trade Evolutions are allowed, provided the tester provides the necessary items when appliable.

Basically, this means that in the case of Pokémon like Scyther, the tester will need to find the Metal Coat and then trigger the trade evolution by trading back and forth. Outside influences like Pokémon being traded from other games are strictly banned.

To assist players, there is an Availability List showing where and when you can catch one of Sinnoh's excellent Pokémon.

This list was shamelessly stolen from the previous thread, so shoutouts and likes to sin(pi) for their good work.

The following information contains spoilers. If you don't want to be spoiled, look away now!

So far this is only complete for Platinum
LEGEND
[G] = This Pokémon is given to you by a NPC (possibly as an Egg).
[IN] = This Pokémon is an interactable encounter.
[T] = This Pokémon is obtained via in-game trade.
[D] = This Pokémon can only be caught in Pokémon Diamond.
[D*] = This Pokémon is first found here in Pokémon Diamond only.
[P] = This Pokémon can only be caught in Pokémon Pearl.
[P*] = This Pokémon is first found here in Pokémon Pearl only.
[Pt] = This Pokémon can only be caught in Pokémon Platinum.
[Pt*] = This Pokémon is first found here in Pokémon Platinum only.

===START===
Route 201: Turtwig [G], Chimchar [G], Piplup [G]
Route 201 (after capture tutorial): Starly, Bidoof, Kricketot
Route 202: Shinx
Old rod: Magikarp
Route 204 south: Budew, Wurmple, Zubat
Ravaged Path: Psyduck
Route 203: Abra
Oreburgh Gate: Geodude
Oreburgh City: Abra [T]
Route 207: Machop, Ponyta
Oreburgh Mine: Onix

===GYM 1===
VALLEY WINDWORKS: Buizel, Pachirisu, Shellos
Honey trees: Aipom, Heracross, Burmy, Combee, Cherubi
Note that the first Munchlax tree can range from this point to after Surf becomes usable.
VALLEY WINDWORKS (after defeating Mars): Drifloon [IN]
ETERNA FOREST: Gastly, Hoothoot, Buneary
ETERNA CITY - Chatot [T]
UNDERGROUND - Shieldon [P/Pt] [Fossil], Cranidos [D/Pt] [Fossil]
Route 211 west: Meditite, Chingling, Bronzor
Mt. Coronet 1F: Cleffa, Nosepass [Pt]

===GYM 2===
Old Chateau: Rotom [Pt]
Eterna City (after defeating Jupiter): Togepi [Pt][G]
Route 206: Gligar [Pt]
WAYWARD CAVE: Gible [Pt*]
Route 208: Ralts [Pt]
Hearthome CITY: Eevee [Pt][G]

===GYM 3===
Route 209: Chansey, Duskull [Pt], Spiritomb [IN] (if yes trade)
Good rod: Goldeen, Barboach, Finneon
Solaceon Ruins: Unown
Route 210 south: Scyther [Pt]
Route 215: Lickitung [Pt], Marill
Veilstone City: Porygon [Pt][G]
Route 214: Rhyhorn [Pt], Houndour [Pt]
Ruin Maniac Cave: Hippopotas
Valor Lakefront: Girafarig
Route 213: Remoraid, Wingull
Route 212 south: Quagsire, Croagunk
Trophy Garden: Pichu
Great Marsh: Tangela [Pt], Yanma [Pt], Tropius [Pt], Skorupi, Carnivine

===GYM 4===
===GYM 5===

Route 210 north: Swablu [Pt]
Surf: Tentacool
Route 221: Sudowoodo [Pt*]
Fuego Ironworks: Magnemite [Pt], Magmar [Pt]
Route 218: Mr. Mime [Pt*]
Iron Island: Steelix (Wild), Riolu [G]

===GYM 6===
Mt. Coronet B1F: Feebas
Route 216: Sneasel, Snorunt [Pt], Snover
Route 217: Swinub [Pt]
SNOWPOINT CITY: - Haunter [T]

===GYM 7===
Mt. Coronet mountainside: Absol [Pt]
Distortion World: Giratina [Pt][IN]
Lake Acuity: Uxie [IN]
Lake Valor: Azelf [IN]
Lake Verity: Mesprit [roaming]
Route 222: Electabuzz [Pt]
Route 223: Mantyke

Untiered Pokémon
Cresselia - Not available until Postgame
Heatran - Not available until Postgame
Giratina (D/P), Dialga/Palkia (Pt) - Not available until Postgame
Any other Pokémon not obtainable before beating the Champion, or that can only be obtained via earlier Generations or Events.

To further assist testers and players, I prepared an availability list for all the relevant evolutionary items for DPPt In-Game Tiering.

===GYM 2===
Up-Grade: Team Galactic Eterna Building. (Plat)

===GYM 3===
Magmarizer: Route 214. (Plat)
Oval Stone: Lost Tower.
Razor Fang: Route 214. (Plat)

===GYM 5===
Electirizer: Valley Windworks. (Requires Surf - Plat)
Metal Coat: Iron Island. (Guaranteed)
Held by wild Magnemite, wild Steelix, wild Bronzor, and wild Bronzong (5% chance each)
The Thief TM can be obtained in Eterna City and Bronzor is available before Gym 2. It is however, quite time-consuming to attempt to steal a Metal Coat.

Protector: Iron Island. (Plat)

===GYM 7===
Dubious Disc: Veilstone - Team Galactic HQ. (Plat)
Razor Claw: Veilstone - Team Galactic HQ. (Plat)
Reaper Cloth: Acuity Lakefront (Requires Rock Climb - Plat)

===GYM 8===
Razor Claw: Victory Road (All),

There is a very important item outside of the scope of this list but it absolutely warrants a mention...
The Choice Specs are available in Celestic Town.


You can obtain them from an NPC in the Mart during the morning. During other times of the day, the NPC will give out other glasses-like items like the Blackglasses.

Diamond and Pearl have significant differences to Pokémon Platinum, such as the lack of the Dex Expansion, several differences regarding the level curve, most notably at the E4, and Fantina as the 5th Gym Leader, where her Mismagius isn't as much of a threat.

However, for their poor reputation as unoptimized games, there may not be enough testers up to the challenge of exploring Sinnoh's humble beginnings. Therefore, I'm making a poll.

Do you want Diamond and Pearl to have a separate thread and are willing to test Pokémon so it can be completed?
> Yes
> No

To answer it, simply copy and paste one of the following so it's easier to find with the search function:

"DP Thread Split > Yes"
"DP Thread Split > No"


If you just wish to talk about testing and nominations for these games in this thread, simply denote these as you would in other In-Game Thread Lists.
 
Current Rankings - Diamond and Pearl


Pokémon are listed in alphabetical order.

Abra (Trade)
Chimchar
Starly

Abra (No trade)
Azelf
Budew
Buizel
Cranidos (Diamond only)
Dialga
Gastly (trade)
Palkia
Piplup
Shinx
Turtwig
Zubat

Gastly (no trade)
Machop (yes trade)
Magikarp
Marill
Meditite
Psyduck

Bronzor
Clefairy
Croagunk
Geodude (yes trade)
Machop (no trade)
Misdreavus
Murkrow
Ponyta

Bidoof
Buneary
Chatot
Drifloon
Geodude (no trade)
Gible
Girafarig
Hoothoot
Mime Jr.
Pikachu
Remoraid
Shellos
Sneasel
Uxie

Barboach
Bonsly
Carnivine
Chingling
Finneon
Geodude (no trade)
Glameow
Goldeen
Hippopotas
Kricketot
Onix (yes trade)
Pachirisu
Riolu
Skorupi
Snover
Spiritomb ("trade")
Steelix (no trade)
Stunky
Tentacool
Wingull
Wooper
Wurmple (Beautifly)
Wurmple (Dustox)

Aipom
Burmy (Mothim)
Burmy (plant Wormadam)
Burmy (sandy Wormadam)
Burmy (trash Wormadam)
Cherubi
Combee
Feebas
Happiny
Heracross
Mantyke
Mespirit
Munchlax
Onix (no trade)
Shieldon
 
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Current Rankings - Platinum


Abra (trade)
Chimchar
Starly

Abra (no trade)
Azelf
Budew
Buizel
Eevee (Jolteon)
Gible
Giratina
Magikarp
Piplup
Porygon (trade)
Scyther (trade)
Turtwig

Cranidos
Eevee (Espeon)
Eevee (Vaporeon)
Gastly (trade)
Gligar
Houndour
Magmar (trade)
Ralts (Gardevoir)
Psyduck
Scyther (no trade)
Shinx
Sneasel
Zubat

Bronzor
Combee
Croagunk
Eevee (Leafeon)
Eevee (Flareon)
Gastly (no trade)
Geodude (trade)
Machop (trade)
Magnemite
Meditite
Ponyta
Ralts (Gallade)
Rhyhorn (trade)
Rotom
Shellos
Tentacool

Absol
Bidoof
Buneary
Cleffa
Drifloon
Electabuzz (trade)
Hoothoot
Magmar (no trade)
Machop (no trade)
Marill
Pi(ka)chu
Remoraid
Snorunt (Froslass)
Swinub
Tangela

Barboach
Burmy (trash Wormadam)
Carnivine
Chansey
Chatot
Chingling
Duskull (trade)
Eevee (Glaceon)
Eevee (Umbreon)
Electabuzz (no trade)
Finneon
Geodude (no trade)
Girafarig
Goldeen
Hippopotas
Kricketot
Lickitung
Mr. Mime
Nosepass
Onix (trade)
Pachirisu
Quagsire (note that Quagsire is easier to catch than Wooper)
Rhyhorn (no trade)
Riolu
Skorupi
Snorunt (Glalie)
Snover
Spiritomb ("trade")
Steelix (no trade)
Sudowoodo
Swablu
Togepi
Tropius
Uxie
Wingull
Wurmple (Beautifly)
Wurmple (Dustox)

Aipom
Burmy (Mothim)
Burmy (plant Wormadam)
Burmy (sandy Wormadam)
Cherubi
Duskull (no trade)
Feebas
Heracross
Mantyke
Mesprit
Munchlax
Onix (no trade)
Porygon (no trade)
Shieldon
Unown
Yanma
 
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Me and Magnus0 will coordinate the efforts to develop and finish this Tier List. If you have any doubts and policy questions, feel free to PM me.

Please refrain from posting about policy in this thread.

There is a specific thread for discussing it and I reiterate that you may PM me directly about any questions or complaints about them.

:swole: With all of that out of the way, it's time to experience greatness. :swole:

Feel free to post now!
 
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Biggest issue with this thread right now is that it completely ignores all changes proposed since August 2017, which was when sin(pi) stopped updating the old tier list. Some of those proposals (like moving Luxray to B) are pretty good, so you should at least read and consider all of them.

Second biggest issue is that Bidoof is in S and Tropius is in E. I think we should either completely ignore out-of-battle uses when tiering Pokemon or create a separate tier list for out-of-battle usefulness. Mixing battlers and HM slaves in the main tier list is unnecessarily messy.

also DP Thread Split > Yes
 
Biggest issue with this thread right now is that it completely ignores all changes proposed since August 2017, which was when sin(pi) stopped updating the old tier list. Some of those proposals (like moving Luxray to B) are pretty good, so you should at least read and consider all of them.

Second biggest issue is that Bidoof is in S and Tropius is in E. I think we should either completely ignore out-of-battle uses when tiering Pokemon or create a separate tier list for out-of-battle usefulness. Mixing battlers and HM slaves in the main tier list is unnecessarily messy.

also DP Thread Split > Yes
To be honest, I didn't read the older thread at all beyond the opening post lmao.

That does explain some quirky placements tho...

As for Bidoof... I dunno, this is the one game where HMs matter the most, but if we're talking strictly battle ability, we can drop it down when someone tests it.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

On to new Horizons!
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I haven't read much of the old thread so I don't know if this was brought up, but I feel like Shellos in D is doing a huge disservice to it, and on the contrary, I believe it is actually incredibly underrated. In fact, I actually had a better experience using Shellos than I did Buizel.

Shellos is obtained quite early at around Route 205, and it's very good right off the bat. It gets Water Pulse immediately as STAB, a 60 BP move that early in the game is incredibly good, and it does very well against many of the route trainers, especially all the Geodudes and Ponytas you will inevitably run into along the way. Later on it also gets Rain Dance which can help boost its Water Pulse. It doesn't fare well against Gardenia, but neither does Buizel and that's in A tier. It may be very slow, but it makes up for it with solid bulk which I felt came in handy in a lot of situations. It evolves at Level 30, but it's manageable until then and it's also very good in Route 212 since that route is all rainy. Once it evolves into Gastrodon, it's incredibly solid, with STAB Mud Bomb and especially Surf by that point which is amazingly convenient: and it hits a bit harder than Floatzel on that front too. If you get the Choice Specs from Celestic Town that just sweetens the deal. As Gastrodon, it really pulls its weight, having a great gym in Byron where it can pull its weight against most of the Gym Trainers as well as Byron's Steelix and Bastiodon alike. It also does well against the Iron Island folk beforehand, and with STAB Mud Bomb when you start getting into the Team Galactic stuff you can easily deal with Jupiter's Skuntank and Saturn's Toxicroak (and against Purugly, it's alright for the most part). You can also use the EQ TM on it if you wish, with or without it, after Team Galactic it has a fantastic matchup against the final gym, even against Octillery and Ambipom because it has good STAB and good firepower+bulk.

It also has a very good E4 with strong performances against both Bertha and Flint, and later against Cynthia it can pull its weight in taking on Garchomp and Lucario by virtue of its good bulk: if you have Ice Beam you definitely have a chance against Garchomp.

But overall Gastrodon was very useful when I used it: a great STAB combo and defensive typing and good bulk+firepower made it a consistent and reliable Pokemon, despite how slow it is. Even as Shellos, it's still plenty usable and can deliver a good performance throughout the game until it evolves. I think D is too low for it, and I think at the very least it should be higher than that, though I don't know where it should be. At least C though, maybe even B would be fitting for it imo.
 
As for Bidoof... I dunno, this is the one game where HMs matter the most,
In this case, why don't we make a completely independent tier list where each Pokemon is tiered entirely based on which HMs it can use? S tier would obviously be Bidoof, and A tier would probably be something like Buizel, Chimchar, Cranidos, Eevee (Vaporeon), Geodude, Gible, Lickitung, Magikarp, Machop, Marill, Onix, Onix (trade), Psyduck, Tropius, and Turtwig.
 
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Banning X boosts is simply baffling to me. No other thread disallows the use of items (except for X Accuracy in the oldest games if I remember it correctly). Additionally, Diamond and Pearl have really nasty difficulty spike at the end of the campaign where standard trainers are on your level and League can easily have 10 levels of advantage over the player so the use of items (for healing or boosting) verges on mandatory.

As for Bidoof... I dunno, this is the one game where HMs matter the most, but if we're talking strictly battle ability, we can drop it down when someone tests it.
I used Bidoof in Platinum and it is average in battles most of the time. It was severely underperforming by the time I reached Pokemon League so I resorted to using X items with Simple to make it somewhat viable. Seeing it in S seems like a parody of real tier lists. Bidoof fits the description of a C/D rank but I can understand placing it in B solely on its usefulness in HM department.
 
Biggest issue with this thread right now is that it completely ignores all changes proposed since August 2017, which was when sin(pi) stopped updating the old tier list. Some of those proposals (like moving Luxray to B) are pretty good, so you should at least read and consider all of them.

Second biggest issue is that Bidoof is in S and Tropius is in E. I think we should either completely ignore out-of-battle uses when tiering Pokemon or create a separate tier list for out-of-battle usefulness. Mixing battlers and HM slaves in the main tier list is unnecessarily messy.

also DP Thread Split > Yes
The current placements are taken directly from the old thread, which as you mentioned, hasn't been updated since 2017. That's why there are some highly questionably placements, like Shinx, Cranidos and Zubat (???) being in A, or Combee and Mespritt being in F. I'm sure that topics like Shinx to B will be discussed again in this thread, so I think these issues will sort themselves out.

The reason why Bidoof gets to be S tier when Tropius is in E is because you need a Bidoof to get a Tropius in the first place. Availability is the most important thing for a good HM slave. I'm against a separate list for HM-slaves for that very reason. It would be entirely pointless because Bibarel does everything except fly throughout the entire game, so it basically outclasses everything except Tropius. That said, Tropius still deserves some recognition for it's HM-slave prowess, and I think E is too hard on it.

I personally think having an MVP tier just for Bibarel is a pretty good idea. Bibarel in S might give people the wrong idea. An MVP tier communicates that Bibarel is an essential mon for every run, but not because of its battle prowess. Doing this would even allow Bidoof to be placed in a 'normal' tier as well, but assuming that it will actually be optimized for combat.
 
In this case, why don't we make a completely independent tier list where each Pokemon is tiered entirely based on which HMs it can use? S tier would obviously be Bidoof, and A tier would probably be something like Buizel, Chimchar, Cranidos, Geodude, Machop, Onix, Onix (trade), Psyduck, Lickitung, Tropius, and Turtwig.
That sounds a bit excessive. I think your idea of making the list strictly battle-based is better in the long run, we can always add HM compatibility as a point on the write-ups.

Banning X boosts is simply baffling to me. No other thread disallows the use of items (except for X Accuracy in the oldest games if I remember it correctly).
Mind you, I'm not banning "items", just X-Items for the reasons I've already stated on the OP.

I personally think having an MVP tier just for Bibarel is a pretty good idea. Bibarel in S might give people the wrong idea. An MVP tier communicates that Bibarel is an essential mon for every run, but not because of its battle prowess. Doing this would even allow Bidoof to be placed in a 'normal' tier as well, but assuming that it will actually be optimized for combat.
That was exactly how I had it, but DHR disallowed it, so them's the breaks. :mehowth:

Bidoof will most certainly be bumped down, the only question is to where. I don't even have a base to work with since it's also at S on the old list as well.



Honestly, I'd like to get some tests rolling so we can update the list.
Anything besides Bidoof needs immediate testing?
 
I'm against a separate list for HM-slaves for that very reason. It would be entirely pointless because Bibarel does everything except fly throughout the entire game, so it basically outclasses everything except Tropius.
We tier Pokemon based on how useful they are given that someone already decided to use them, not based on how completely they get outclassed by a better choice. We can't say "HM slave Psyduck is entirely pointless because Bibarel outclasses it." for the same reason we can't say "Scyther should be D tier because Staraptor outclasses it."
Honestly, I'd like to get some tests rolling so we can update the list.
Anything besides Bidoof needs immediate testing?
After sin(pi) left, the 3 most controversial things were probably Torterra, Rapidash (Pt), and Toxicroak. Most of those other proposals came with tests and were not controversial at all, so I think it's safe to simply update the list without having to test all those things a second or third time.
 
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My take on Bibarel (based on my Platinum run from 3 years ago) is that its battle performance is severely lacking. One of its advantages is low evolution level which should make it a fairly strong Pokemon in early/mid game, however it is not a case. Lack of the early Return in DP is a minor problem but the gym leader line-up is a big one - Grass, Ghost and Fighting types beat Bibarel (Fantina has Mismagius with Magical Leaf and other Pokemon spread status conditions while tanking attacks). This leaves the lategame where Bibarel's stats become horrendous. 79/60/60 bulk doesn't let it boost easily in major battles so Simple's value is undermined. Bibarel can try going for Yawn + Amnesia/Defense Curl for survivability but then battles become sluggish, the player loses on HM slots and 85/55 offences are not sufficient anyway.

I had some fun clearing routes with the beaver and Simple is a great ability (when used with X items) but the Pokemon is still below average in battle efficiency. The placement in the tier list depends on how you value major battles and out-of-battle support but I would give it a C/D rank. Seeing someone else's opinion on Bibarel would be lovely.
 
My take on Bibarel (based on my Platinum run from 3 years ago) is that its battle performance is severely lacking. One of its advantages is low evolution level which should make it a fairly strong Pokemon in early/mid game, however it is not a case. Lack of the early Return in DP is a minor problem but the gym leader line-up is a big one - Grass, Ghost and Fighting types beat Bibarel (Fantina has Mismagius with Magical Leaf and other Pokemon spread status conditions while tanking attacks). This leaves the lategame where Bibarel's stats become horrendous. 79/60/60 bulk doesn't let it boost easily in major battles so Simple's value is undermined. Bibarel can try going for Yawn + Amnesia/Defense Curl for survivability but then battles become sluggish, the player loses on HM slots and 85/55 offences are not sufficient anyway.

I had some fun clearing routes with the beaver and Simple is a great ability (when used with X items) but the Pokemon is still below average in battle efficiency. The placement in the tier list depends on how you value major battles and out-of-battle support but I would give it a C/D rank. Seeing someone else's opinion on Bibarel would be lovely.
For the sake of correcting this blatant distortion, I'm moving Bidoof to D for the time being.

If anyone wants to contest and provide battle logs to do so, we'll evaluate Bidoof on its battle merits.

Regarding its HM Utility, while it's undeniable that it's an extremely efficient mon on HM duty, this goes beyond the scope of the list itself, which will be battle-oriented, but it will warrant a mention on the write-ups.

Further tier changes, barring huge discrepancies like this, will only be done with strong evidence to back them up. Namely logs.
 
I think a good place to start is... with the starters, of course. I don't think many people have issues with Chimchar's placement, but Turtwig is a lot more controversial. Personally, I think it's right on the borderline between A and S, kind of like RSE Ralts, so I expect a lot of discussion on it. Here's a rundown of my experience with Turtwig.

Pros:
  • good offensive typing (you can't go wrong natural STAB earthquake)
  • good stats, especially bulk
  • boosting moves to play around lackluster speed
  • versatile movepool in general
  • phenomenal matchup spread (this is the big one)
Cons:
  • lackluster speed
  • unspectacular route cleaner in the late game (though it's not particularly bad at it either)
  • sometimes reliant on setup
  • recoil from wood hammer gets really bad at the E4 level spike
Turtwig stacks up really well to the enemies in Sinnoh. It gets all the right tools at the right time. One early game quirk I really liked is that it gets mega drain. This allows it to heal up when fighting Hikers with Geodudes and Onixes, who are EXTREMELY common in this game. It might be a small thing, but it really made a difference during route clearing in the early game.

It fully evolves quite early for such a powerful pokemon, which makes it very strong in the mid-game. Earthquake and wood hammer are incredibly strong and together with a rock type coverage move, Torterra can hit a whopping 10 types for super effective damage. Add rock polish, and you have a very scary offensive threat that is also very bulky.

The best thing about Turtwig is its matchup spread. It has not a single truly bad gym matchup, and it lacks bad matchups in general. Even against opponents like Candice and Aaron, it can contribute. It has plenty of really good matchups as well, and it doesn't even need all that much support to achieve that. Overall, I think Turtwig is an incredibly solid Pokemon, but I'm not sure if it's efficient enough for S.

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Roark (15): Turtwig outspeeds and OHKO’s Geodude. Onix outspeeds and always uses stealth rocks, and it barely survives a razor leaf. Roark will use a potion though, so you can take it out safely anyway. Cranidos outspeeds and 3HKO’s with headbutt, but it gets 2HKO’d by razor leaf. Great matchup overall.

Mars (18): Zubat outspeeds, but it fails to do meaningful damage. It never used toxic either. Tackle is a 3HKO. Purugly does single digit damage as well, while razor leaf is a 3HKO even counting the sitrus berry. Good matchup, one of the more reliable answers to Purugly, especially with item support.

Gardenia (22): I find it’s ideal to set up three curses to line up with the opposing Turtwig’s reflect. At +3, Grotle 2HKO’s all of Gardenia’s mons with bite, while not taking much damage in return. With a super potion, this strat is consistent, though you often don’t even need the potion. Great matchup.

Jupiter (22): Zubat outspeeds and 4HKO’s with wing attack, while bite is barely short of 2HKO’ing. Skuntank totally walls you unless you set up multiple curses on Zubat. You need a super potion and at least three curses to stand a chance, so I’m calling this a poor matchup, especially because night slash has a high crit rate that can break through curse.

Fantina (26): Grotle still outspeeds Duskull after one curse, so you can safely OHKO it with bite if you equip a rawst berry. Mismagius is 2HKO’d by +1 bite, and it uses either confuse ray or shadow ball. Shadow ball is a 3HKO, so you can actually take Mismagius out with some luck. Haunter is faster and uses hypnosis, but it can’t deal much damage to Grotle at all and it is OHKO’d by +1 bite. If you manage to set up curse twice without getting burned, you can OHKO Mismagius. Possible sweep with item support.

It’s not a consistent sweep or anything, but I think this is an impressive performance considering Fantina is really difficult to deal with. Good matchup.

Barry Hearthome (26): Staravia and Monferno kind of wall Grotle, but you can get past them with curse and item support if you really want to. Buizel and Roselia really can’t touch Grotle, so you can take them out with razor leaf (OHKO) and bite (2HKO) respectively. Two out of four, average matchup.

Maylene (30/32): as a Grotle, you can win by spamming curse and healing items, which isn’t the most efficient but it does work. I think being lv 32 isn’t unreasonable though, so I tested Torterra as well. Torterra OHKO’s Meditite and Lucario with earthquake, and 2HKO’s Machoke with earthquake. No items or setup required. So overall, this is a great matchup imo.

Barry (31/32): for Grotle, the matchup is the same as last time. It can beat Buizel and Roselia, but not Staravia and Monferno. Torterra on the other hand, can easily take a flame wheel from Monferno and OHKO it with earthquake. Staravia is 3HKO’d by bite, or 2HKO’d if you use a fodder for intimidate. Buizel and Roselia are both OHKO’d by earthquake as well, and they can’t touch Torterra at all.

I’m calling this a good matchup even though Grotle is only average. The only reason I tested Grotle here is because I wanted to test Grotle vs Torterra against Crasher Wake.

Crasher Wake (31/33): you can definitely sweep this as Grotle, but it’s not the most efficient. You need to use a fodder Pokemon for intimidate first of all. Gyarados can 4HKO Grotle with bite even without any curses, so it’s not hard to set up. At +3 attack, you can 2HKO Gyarados with razor leaf. Floatzel will come out and 3HKO you with ice fang, so you have to heal. +3 razor leaf OHKO’s both Floatzel and Quagsire. Grotle outspeeds and OHKO’s Quagsire without setup, and it can survive one ice fang at +0 and do about 75% to Floatzel with overgrow razor leaf, so the matchup is decent even without setup.

Torterra has more issues with Gyarados as it has to tank STAB waterfalls rather than non-STAB bites. It does 2HKO Gyarados with wood hammer, though Torterra will faint in the process because of recoil. Torterra can take one ice fang from full HP and annihilate Floatzel with overgrow wood hammer, but you’ll die from recoil again unless you equip a sitrus berry. Quagsire is outsped and OHKO’d easily. Overall, it’s a decent matchup.

So in summery, I think it's not really worth delaying your evolution for this matchup. If you really want to sweep it, Grotle is a bit better (though not efficient), but both Grotle and Torterra are decent enough.

Barry Canalave (36): Everything on Barry’s team is faster than Torterra, so that’s not good. Staraptor is a bad matchup because of intimdate, which means that you 3HKO it at best. Torterra can’t touch Heracross either because it resists all of Torterra’s moves. On the bright side, it easily OHKO’s Floatzel and Infernape with wood hammer and earthquake respectively. Floatzel barely does damage, while Infernape’s flame wheel is a 2HKO, so you can take them out back to back. With a shell bell equipped, Torterra will have barely enough HP after this to also tank a Roserade giga drain. Earthquake is a range for a OHKO on Roserade. Average matchup.

Byron (37): Torterra outspeeds and OHKO’s both Magneton and Bastiodon with earthquake. EQ is a 2HKO range on Steelix, while ice fang 2HKO’s back. Steelix can also decide to set up sandstorm, so most of the time you can safely run through this fight by just spamming earthquake. Great matchup.

Saturn (38): Torterra gets walled by Golbat unless you run a rock type move. Bronzor fails to do any damage to Torterra and is 3HKO’d by wood hammer. Toxicroak gets outsped if it uses revenge, and it’s OHKO’d by earthquake. Pretty good matchup.

Mars (38): see above for Golbat and Bronzor. Purugly’s slash is a 3HKO if you factor in fake out damage and recoil from wood hammer, while wood hammer is a 2HKO counting the sitrus berry. Decent matchup.

Cyrus: I forgot to safe so I couldn't test. oops.

Candice (40):
Sneasel’s ice shard does about 2/3 to Torterra and miracle seed wood hammer OHKO’s. After that, you can kamikaze and OHKO Piloswine as well. 2 out of 4 isn’t bad at all for a Pokemon with a 4x weakness to ice.

Volkner (45):
After a rock polish, Torterra outspeeds Volkner’s entire team. At that point, you can sweep with earthquake, though you do need a soft sand to get the range on Luxray. Great matchup.

Aaron (49): Torterra can barely survive Yanmega’s bug buzz and OHKO back with rock incense rock slide. Aaron sends Vespiquen out right after for some reason, so you can outspeed and OHKO it with rock slide. Torterra can take one ice fang and do about ¾ to Drapion with earthquake. Not great, but not useless either.

Bertha (49): Torterra outspeeds and OHKO’s Whishcash, Golem and Rhyperior with wood hammer. Hippowdon is outsped and 2HKO’d, but its crunch is only like a 4HKO. Gliscor completely walls Torterra, outspeeds it, and 2HKO’s with ice fang. Even with shell bell, you might need some healing support to deal with recoil from wood hammer. Good matchup overall.

Flint (49): Torterra can barely live a flamethrower from Houndoom, allowing it to set up rock polish. You can just sweep with earthquake from there, though you do have to be careful of Flareon’s quick attack. Unironically great matchup.

Lucian (50): Mr.Mime leads with either reflect or light screen. If it uses light screen, you can OHKO it with MS wood hammer. Espeon comes out and it's also OHKO’d by MS wood hammer, and you can outspeed it if you set up rock polish on turn 1 (only works if mime uses light screen though). Alakazam 2HKO’s, but it gets OHKO’d back by wood hammer. Gallade’s psycho cut is a 3HKO, and you can 2HKO it back with earthquake + wood hammer. The order is important here, in order to play around the sitrus berry. Bronzong completely walls you. Overall, not that great. Torterra can beat anything but Bronzong in a 1 on 1 battle, but it often dies from recoil in the process. With healing support, it’s alright as it does deal a ton of damage.

Cynthia (50): Totrerra outspeeds Spiritomb. Two earthquakes gets both Spiritomb and Torterra in red. You can suicide bomb with wood hammer too, but using earthquake twice allows you to bait out a full restore while still taking Spiritomb down. You can set up rock polish and OHKO Lucario with soft sand earthquake. If Milotic hasn’t been defeated yet, it will come out after Lucario, allowing you to nail it with a wood hammer. Against Roserade and Garchomp, you can take one hit from full HP and do a bunch of damage at most. Avoid Togekiss. Overall, decent enough for a Champion fight.

Let the discussion begin
 
I had a run started in the old DPP thread that never ended up getting completed due to general thread deadness and other priorities that came around at the time. Since I was using Turtwig I'll drop what I have here and give my opinion on the matter, I will (hopefully) finish up the run soon and do some more

duh

Grotle (18): Set up 2 Curses on Zubat. It seems to prefer going for Bte / Leech Life over Toxic, but if it does the Pecha Berry you cop just before this fight clears that up for you. At +2, you 2hko Zubat and Purugly. Good matchup, although you’re a bit prone to hax and status vs Zubat.

Golbat (17): 2hko Zubat. Thanks to Inner Focus you can Screech on Purugly’s Fake Out and 2hko with Wing Attack. Great matchup.

Grotle (22): Get two Curses on Turtwig and spam Bite to win. At +2 you 2hko everything (not factoring Reflect) and Grass Knot doesn’t do a whole lot back thanks to resistances. You’ll need a potion but overall good mu.

Gyarados (20): Gyara’s achilles heel in this mu is Grass Knot; since Gyara is so heavy it consistently gets 2hkod. In return all it can really do is spam Bite. It can beat Turtwig, even in spite of Reflect, as its Grass Knot is too weak, but Cherrim will Leech + GK it to death, and Roserade will 2hko outright. Bad matchup

Golbat (21): Outspeed everything, ohko Turtwig and Roserade, 2hko Cherrim. Nothing can touch you. Fantastic mu.

Grotle (22): Curse twice and attempt to sweep, you’ll beat Bat but do negative damage to Skunk. Bad mu

Gyarados (21): Deals with Zubat fine but cannot do enough damage to Skuntank. Even after a Screech Tackle is a 4-5hko. Seeing as the Zubat here really isn’t a threat to anyone, I’m calling this a bad mu.

Golbat (23): Golbat can beat Skunk but it’ll need a Screech and a potion. Decent mu.

Grotle (26): Set up 1-2 Curses and sweep. There really isn’t a magic number here; 2 curses leave you outsped by Duskull, which can get you burned after your berry is used up, but without two Curses you fail to ohko Mismag. A sweep is very feasible, I did it multiple times, but it’ll require some luck and possibly a potion (luckily Wisp is hella inaccurate lmao). If you don’t go the sweep route, you beat Duskull and Haunter 1v1. Good mu.

Gyarados (25): Destroys, you ohko Duskull (so no berry even required) and Haunter. Mismag is 2hkod through berry, but Shadow Ball does pitiful damage and it has to hax with Confuse Ray or spdef drops to beat you. Great mu.

Golbat (25): 2hko everything. Duskull seems to prefer clicking Future Sight here so Rawst Berry isn’t entirely necessary. Haunter can’t do shit back, but Mismag outspeeds and 2hkos with Psybeam. Good mu, if you have Crobat by now it’d be even greater.

Kirlia (23): do you really think I should’ve tried?

Grotle (26): A Curse sweep IS feasible but you need a lot of potions and luck so it’s better to play it as a 1v1er. In that role it handles Buizel and Roselia pretty well, but loses to Ferno and Satan himself aka Staravia. Decent.

Gyarados (25): Just Dragon Rage and you 2hko everything, worst case Rose paralyzes you. Don’t even need Intimidate fodder lel. Great mu.

Golbat (25): 2hko everything with Wing Attack, Rose is ohkod obviously. Worst you have to fear is Staravia. Good mu.

Kirlia (25): Can’t Calm Mind sweep cuz you’re too slow and frail. 1v1 you’ll beat Buizel and Roselia, and might have a chance vs Staravia but I wouldn’t advise trying it. Decent

Torterra (32): Curse two times and ohko everything, no potion required. Great matchup.

Gyarados (30): Just spam EQ and win, you 2hko everything. Rock Tomb spam is annoying but not strong enough to stop you from sweeping with no item support. Great mu.

Crobat (30): Ohko Meditite, 2hko Machoke, and 2hko Lucario after Screech (or just spam Wing Attack but the former is cooler). Machoke can either Focus Energy or Rock Tomb, but if the latter happens you can just switch out to reset the speed drop. Good mu.

Gardevoir (31): After one CM you ohko everything. Even after a Rock Tomb drop you outspeed everything you would anyways. Great mu.

All 33

Torterra: Set up two Curses and sweep. Apparently Rock Tomb cannot miss cuz I consistently landed it vs Staravia, but even if you miss it shouldn’t be the end of the world as long as you hit it eventually. Everything else dies. You don’t even need to Curse sweep cuz you kill them all individually anyways. Great mu

Gyarados: Ice Fang Staravia and EQ everything else to ohko. Dodge Intimidate from Staravia or else everything will live on 1. Great mu

Crobat: Ohko Buizel and Rose, 2hko Star and Ferno. Great mu.

Gardevoir: Shock Wave Star and Bui, Psychic the other two. No CM necessary. Great mu.

Gyarados 34, everyone else 35

Torterra: A sweep here is difficult. In between finches, crits, having to heal whenever you get put in yellow to avoid getting killed by Brine, and minding Wood Hammer recoil, it’s doable, but you’ll be donating a ton of potions. 1v1ing it is easier, you need to dodge Intimidate but you beat Gyara with Rock Tomb into Wood Hammer, Floatzel at full (though recoil will kill you) and Quag obviously. Good mu, not cursing is more optimal.

Gyarados: Can beat everything 1v1 thanks but will require a fair bit of stat debuffing and a potion here or there. Dodge Intimidate from opposing Gyarados, Leer it down to -2, and 3hko with Bite. Leer Floatzel once and 2hko with EQ, same with Quag. Decent, needs a fair bit of support.

Crobat: Needs Screeches to put in work here, otherwise it does too little damage. Safest mu is Gyarados, you need misses from Floatzel to beat that even after a Screech. Quag can also cut it close but your speed keeps you ahead of it even at -2. Decent?

Gardevoir: Agan, don’t Calm Mind here, as taking damage from Gyara opens you up to getting revenge killed by Floatzel. You ohko everything with Shock Wave and Mind Plate Psychic. Worst case scenario is Floatzel crits with Crunch

Everyone is 35

Torterra: Sneasel ohkos with Ice Punch. Golbat 3hkos with Air Cutter and you 3hko back with Rock Tomb, but unless you can burn a potion on Sneasel he will heal up and beat you. Same story with Murkrow, only you 2hko each other and Sitrus keeps it out of range instead of a potion. Bad mu

Gyarados: 2hkos everything with Aqua Tail. You can sweep pretty easily so long as you don’t get Screech’d. Good mu.

Crobat: 2hkos everything and won’t die first. If you wanna sweep you’ll need a potion, but it’ll 1v1 everything just fine. Good mu

Gardevoir: Your only guaranteed mu is Golbat, whom you outspeed and ko with Psychic. Against Sneasel, you have to hit Focus Blast, you eat any move but good luck hitting lmao. Against Murkrow Shock Wave barely misses the ohko and Faint Attack 2hkos obviously. Bad mu.

All 36

Torterra: Curse sweep is doable but requires you meet some conditions. Setting up on Staraptor is ill-advised, better to take it out and set up on whatever comes out next. I could only tempt out Heracross or Infernape next, both work as their super effective moves do jack shit especially after two Curses, but if you could get Floatzel out I think that’d be most optimal. Either way, set up two Curses and spam EQ. You will need potions though. 1v1 you lose to Staraptor and Hera but win vs the rest. Not sure if this is good or decent, leaning towards good, beats Infernape lel.

Gyarados: Ohko - 2hko everything. In order to clean sweep you’ll need a potion and to dodge Intimidate, but you can just take your pick of what you want to kill. Good mu.

Crobat: Ohko Crobat and Rose, 2hko Ape and Floatzel, 3hko Staraptor w no Intimidate. Raptor is best avoided because it can beat you with Take Down. After Raptor is out of the way you can sweep with no potion necessary. Good mu.

Gardevoir: Specs Psychic ohkos everything. Raptor can kill you with a Take Down crit, but Shock Wave ohkos and ignores Double Team. Heracross can also ohko with crit Night Slash, which is more likely due to its high crit rate, so I’d avoid this mon if I were you. Ape and Floatzel you eat hits from and ohko, where Rose is outsped for some reason and obviously ko’d. Good mu.

Magnezone: Specs Tbolt ohkos Raptor and Floatzel. Ape and Hera are 2hkod (a stronger Zone would likely ko Ape here) but outspeed and 2hko you first. Rose is 3hkod but can’t really touch you back. Decent.

Torterra and Gyara 38, rest 39

Torterra: SD and ohko everything. Flawless matchup.

Gyarados: EQ Mag and Bastiodon, Aqua Tail Lix. Mag drops, Lix is 2hkod and can’t touch back. Bastiodon surprisingly is the hardest to beat; it tanks EQ and if it gets Iron Defense up it gets difficult to kill. Regardless Stone Edge doesn’t do much back and you just spam EQ at it. Great mu.

Crobat: Horrendous. The only thing it can stick around to Screech on is Bastiodon and that has Iron Defense anyways lol. Everything else kos it. Terrible mu.

Gardevoir: Specs Focus Blast ohkos everything. The only pokemon you can’t afford to miss on is Lix who 2hkos you with EQ, and unless you’ve taken prior damage you can eat one anyways. Good mu.

Magnezone: Specs Tbolt 2hkos Magneton and 3hkos Bastiodon, neither of which touch you back. Stay away from Lix. Good mu.

All 39

Torterra: Set up two SDs and sweep. You’ll need a potion or two to account for Air Cutters and Wood Hammer recoil vs Bronzor, but at +4 you ko everything. 1v1 it’ll beat everything too. Good mu.

Gyarados: Just spam Aqua Tail / EQ. Might need some item support against Golbat due to confusion / crits / poison. Good mu.

Crobat: 3hko Golbat raw and 2hko Toxicroak through berry. Taking on Bronzor isn’t really advised as you need to spam a lot of Screeches and Rock Tomb drops will cause you to be outsped by Toxicroak. Good mu.

Gardevoir: Ohko Golbat and Croak and 2hko Bronzor with Focus Blast. Bronzor can easily put you in range of Croak’s Faint Attack if you miss enough, so best to avoid it. Good mu.

Magnezone: Specs Tbolt ohkos Golbat and 2hkos the rest. If you dodge Mud Bomb you can beat Croak but otherwise avoid. Good mu.

Crobat 40, everyone else 39

Torterra: Same as Saturn really, but you don’t ohko Purugly without an SD. Is that enough to call it decent? I’m still considering it good

Gyarados: Read above, only I can’t set up. This I’ll call decent.

Crobat: From now on I’ll just address Purugly in these writeups. Like last time you Screech on Fake Out, only this time you can ohko it with Cross Poison. Good mu

Gardevoir: Calm Mind on Toxic and ko everything. Because you trace Inner Focus you ohko Purugly through Fake Out. Good mu.

Magnezone: Ohko everything except Bronzor. Nothing touches you, worst is Golbat confusion flinching you down like the fucking asshole it is. Great mu

Crobat and Gyara 42, rest 41

Torterra: 1v1s Sneasel and Pilo with ease. You can potentially beat Froslass if it misses Blizzard enough. Aboma is insurmountable. Decent mu

Gyarados: Ohko Piloswine, 2hko Sneasel and Froslass after berry with Aqua Tail. Froslass is beatable but Blizzard under Hail will require some healing and you might need to hit through Double Teams. Decent mu

Crobat: Crobat can only really beat Sneasel reliably, Piloswine will require a Stone Edge dodge and Froslass will require multiple Blizzard misses. First time I thought Aboma it Wood Hammer’d for some ungodly reason but when I tested it again it Avalanched so just get lucky Ig. Poor mu.

Gardevoir: Can kill all the non-ghosts with Focus Blast, provided it hits. Froslass doesn’t get ohkod by dry Shadow Ball and 2hkos you back. If you avoid Sneasel, and set up a Calm Mind and Pilo Hails, you can ohko Pilo with Psychic, Froslass with Shadow Ball, and Abomasnow with Focus Blast, without needing to heal. Overall decent mu.

Magnezone: Spam Specs Flash Cannon and win. Fantastic mu

From my (admittedly incomplete) experience I'd concur with Turtwig's current placement at A. While a very solid pokemon in general it's had several hiccups and generally isn't as overwhelming as S tiers like Ape and Zam are. Utterly blanks against Jupiter 1 (though that may not be a huge deal as most things seem to blank against Jupiter 1 on paper) as well as Cyrus, and even in its good mus can be prone to hax and luck due to its low base speed. Definitely a strong choice but not quite as reliable and dominating as I think an S tier should be. As I complete the run, however, my opinion on this may change.

One thing I do think for sure should drop is Zubat, at least to B. The early Golbat and its good typing for the early game give it a solid start but past Maylene it's just been disappointing, mainly coming down to its low power even with the strongest STAB options available to it. It can be forced to rely on Screech for a couple fights and its average bulk doesn't really cut out. I'd say B at a minimum, but if I find it to continue its downward trend I'd honestly argue for C.

That's all I really have for now, good luck to you guys on running this thread, hope it goes well :afrostar:
 
Since we're talking about Turtwig, I'd like to mention that Wake and Flint are much, much easier on DP.

Which raises the question: With Candice being its major roadblock, can Turtwig make a case for S in DP? Could it be the first Grass Starter to finally reach that plateau?

I'm also going to test whether or not Starly can make it to the S-Rank without super early Return and a pivotal matchup against Fantina's dreaded Mismagius.

Speaking of Mismagius, gonna try to get one too, which means I'm playing Pearl.

Before that though, I'm picking the ultimate wall. Trash Wormadam. Its only weakness is Fire. In Sinnoh. It might as well be called Spiritomb with resistances.

Gonna round up the team with everyone's favorite... Finneon! (Who?)
 

Colteor

Free old gens in WCOP
is a Pre-Contributor
RoAPL Champion
I realize the situation is complicated, but I feel like Onix (trade) and Steelix (no trade) should be merged since they're referring to the same pokemon and are in the same tier (E). They have the exact same movepool, availability, stats, matchups etc. The only difference is that one has more EVs and takes a bit less time to catch up. Just have Onix (no trade) be tiered separately from Steelix since they do have far different matchups, maybe even mention in Onix's write up that you can catch it's evolution in Iron Island.
 
I realize the situation is complicated, but I feel like Onix (trade) and Steelix (no trade) should be merged since they're referring to the same pokemon and are in the same tier (E). They have the exact same movepool, availability, stats, matchups etc. The only difference is that one has more EVs and takes a bit less time to catch up. Just have Onix (no trade) be tiered separately from Steelix since they do have far different matchups, maybe even mention in Onix's write up that you can catch it's evolution in Iron Island.
Makes sense to me. I'll get them merged later.
 

TROP

BAN DRUDDIGON. FIREWALL DRAGON DID NOTHING WRONG
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Because based x-items are apparently not an option, Bidoof to C/D for both DP and PT because the differences don't really affect it that much. Yes, this is 100% serious.

To start off, its hm slave duties are tremendously overrated, even in what is easily the set of games that need HMs the most. Except for rock smash and cut (that is not even really needed after beating Jupiter 1 anyway) all the other hms are either not needed at all (fly and defog) or are good enough anyway while having really good distribution that makes finding something for them a non issue(everything else). Any average team should have no problem dumping hms on anything without making it feel like a waste outside of rock smash. The fact it is so easy to do this means Bidoof has no reason having a rank unironically calling it mvp or in s together with actually useful things.

And in battle without the use of x-items (this at least makes it somewhat usable because simple is broken) it is just laughably bad when it is so goddamn weak, frail, and the set ups it gets are either not useful enough or come way too late to even matter. The fact it would only be used a slave and nothing else alone should tank its placement when it is not too hard to just dump hms on things that are already good as filler or moves they will actually use instead of having a mostly wasted slot on the team.

Also did a platinum run before the embarrasing DP remake announcement to confirm this for good with the following mons: Torterra, Floatzel, Staraptor, Lucario, Rampardos, and Houndoom.

Torterra --> S

Really good and self sufficient mon that doesn't really suffer at any point in the run even when it is weak to a billion things. Dumped rock climb here because until the elite 4 I was only really using wood hammer and earthquake anyway, all thanks to how good its lv up movepool alone is, though when I reached the elite 4 it ended up getting rock polish. Final set ended up being Earthquake, Rock Polish, Swords Dance (before Cynthia it was wood hammer, swords dance was only to make her super easy to sweep. Was also obtained late game to make its game corner status a non issue), Stone edge.

Floatzel --> S

What memes think bidoof actually is because floatzel covers a wide range of hms, is actually good in battle thanks to good offensive stats and excellent speed while mainting the incredible availability Bidoof has. Final set was surf, waterfall, crunch, rock smash.

Staraptor --> keep it where it is

Nothing to say with this thing. Intimidate on a super strong mon that has fly quick travel utility is just that good.

Lucario --> perfectly fine where it is

Sadly because this would probably be A/S worthy if it had a non stupid way of getting it.

Rampardos --> B, but can honestly go down all the way to C

It might be strong as fuck, but needing good tms and tutors used on it to truly make good use of it really hinder it. Not really a fan of how frail and slow it is and doesn't stand that much in relevant matchups. Dumped strength on this guy because its movepool is seriously awful otherwise and return was taken by staraptor, 80 bp is not even that bad anyway.

Houndoom --> C

This is just underwhelming as fuck until late game and doesn't really do anything that impressive outside of beating Fantina and Candice alone. Having a really bad movepool and having to rely on 85 accurracy 5 pp move for most of the game is in no way something a B mon would do.
 
Because based x-items are apparently not an option, Bidoof to C/D for both DP and PT because the differences don't really affect it that much. Yes, this is 100% serious.

To start off, its hm slave duties are tremendously overrated, even in what is easily the set of games that need HMs the most. Except for rock smash and cut (that is not even really needed after beating Jupiter 1 anyway) all the other hms are either not needed at all (fly and defog) or are good enough anyway while having really good distribution that makes finding something for them a non issue(everything else). Any average team should have no problem dumping hms on anything without making it feel like a waste outside of rock smash. The fact it is so easy to do this means Bidoof has no reason having a rank unironically calling it mvp or in s together with actually useful things.
It was already dropped all the way down to D because now we're just considering battle performance.

Floatzel --> S

What memes think bidoof actually is because floatzel covers a wide range of hms, is actually good in battle thanks to good offensive stats and excellent speed while mainting the incredible availability Bidoof has. Final set was surf, waterfall, crunch, rock smash.
As for Floatzel in S... I'll need significant and detailed evidence for that. I'm not bumping anything to S based on conjecture.
 
Skorupi for A or B tier

Now, I know what everyone is going to say: that Skorupi is kinda garbo at the beginning and takes forever to evolve. BUUUUUUT once it does you get a pretty bulky and fast tank with amazing typing and movepool without the need of tms (especially since the Steel nerf, Fairies presence and Knock off buff for the upcoming BDSP). Elemental fangs are already a blessing but the true tech is Accupressure, this dangerous move and some healing items can quickly turn Drapion into an invincible beast that no boss can't stand up against.

If I change my mind and pick up the remake, I'm definitely picking this guy.
 
Unown is available in Diamond/Pearl, but it's not in the tier list.

Should be F because Unown is well, Unown.
Thanks for letting me know, I'll add it when I can.

Skorupi for A or B tier

Now, I know what everyone is going to say: that Skorupi is kinda garbo at the beginning and takes forever to evolve. BUUUUUUT once it does you get a pretty bulky and fast tank with amazing typing and movepool without the need of tms (especially since the Steel nerf, Fairies presence and Knock off buff for the upcoming BDSP). Elemental fangs are already a blessing but the true tech is Accupressure, this dangerous move and some healing items can quickly turn Drapion into an invincible beast that no boss can't stand up against.

If I change my mind and pick up the remake, I'm definitely picking this guy.
Terrible offensive stats, Slow Exp. Group, Pin Missile as its best level-up STAB option until Lv. 34 when it gets Bug Bite...

A-Tier definitely sounds like a long shot, but let's see how it works on practice. You willing to test it?
 
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