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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
I could not disagree more. While everyone else has been orgasming over the new rain threats, I saw the potential of using Sand specifically to counter it and snuff out their weather and as a result, their advantage. In particular, a specially defensive Band Tyranitar destroys any Politoed with ease and essentially puts any rain team at the mercy of my Stoutland/Terrakion/Other-revenge-killer.
While for most it seems that Sand got worse due to all the new toys that Rain got, I think its the reverse. If you play it right, Sand can make the most common team archetype a liability. At one point, I even had 2 accounts in the top 10 on PS (only 8 and 10 as well as being the first day after B2W2 but whatever). Dual sand is even better, as SDef Hippo is an absolute monster!
The combination of Specially Defensive Jirachi and Physically Defensive Landorus-T is amazing. Jirachi keeps Landorus-T healthy all day long, as they have amazing defensive synergy, and together they resist almost every attack (except Fire, Dark and Ghost) while also handling each side of the spectrum very good. They can also U-turn to each other, which is another reason why they work so good. Those 2 fuckers together can paralyze you, flinch you to death, ko you with strong EQs (370 Atk is nothing to scoff at, combined with EdgeQuake coverage), lay down SR, Intimidate stuff to act as team players, and put the opponent's team on the defensive with the double u-turn combo. Finally the fact that they are so resilient to passive damage certainly helps, as Landorus-T only takes neutral damage from SR, is immune to any other hazards, is immune to Sand and paralyze, and Jirachi resists SR, is immune to T-Spikes and Toxic, and is also immune to Sand.
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Has anyone tried to use Grass Knot in Thundurus-T? I had some sucess with this move replacing Volt Switch. While Thundurus-T can no longer scout, it gets coverage on many things that it didn't got before. For example, most Hippowdon are OHKOed by Grass Knot after Stealth Rock damage. Previously it could survive Hidden Power Ice and retaliate with Roar or Ice Fang. Grass Knot can hit Terrakion more accurately than Focus Blast; and with Grass Knot, Thundurus-T is not walled by Quagsire, Swampert and Gastrodon. A weakened Tyranitar can also be revenge killed by Grass Knot.
This is interesting, because Choice Band was the original set I wanted to use with Ttar. What spread have you found most effective? When I ran it it always seemed not bulky enough or not powerful enough; thats why I trashed that idea and went with Scarf :D
Also definitely agree on SDef Hippo being amazing!
While I can't take credit for discovering it, I was watching some battles today on PS! and one guy who I watched a bunch was using Porygon 2, and it was singlehandedly dismantling teams. Most notably perhaps, he laughs at all three Genies thanks to Trace. Thundurus-T gives him Volt Absorb, and Landorus-T can't do much back after getting his Intimidate thrown back in his face. LO Tornadus-T can't even 2HKO with Focus Blast, meaning he gets killed by Discharge/Ice Beam and then Porygon 2 can take advantage of his Traced Regenerator as he switches out. Fighting-Types not named Conkeldurr were wary of switching in as well, since none of them appreciate Thunder Wave too much. Has anyone else used him in B2/W2?
Why would I use Choice Band when LO Taunt beats Stall even better, plus is better vs every offense generally because shit like Thundurus / Rock resists can't just come in and get free set-up on you. Choice Band is just inferior, and as if you ever even need to use Double Edge lol.
Also, Aero does take hits pretty well in sand, even with an offensive EV spread:
LO 252 SAtk Neutral Nature Hurricane from Tornadus: 29.13 - 34.43%
i use specs kingdra, it does not need rain to be effective, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
i personally like the combo of cb terrakion or another strong fighting type alongside specs kingdra when facing rain teams, send out kingdra, double switch to terrakion on ferrothorn, start blowing shit up with powerful close combats, if ferrothorn stays in and dies, kingdra has a field day. WIN WIN.
so many rain teams atm are weak to kingdra, all i do is setup sr and then sack my weather inducer to get some damage on politoed, and its pretty much game, i practically get wins handed to me
ive played a few games of bw2 and it sucks. genesect will just make the metagame worse. RIP BW1
I run an Amoongbro core with a SDef Heatran, 2 dragons + Forretress, and it does pretty well against Genie-centred rain teams. Lead with Amoonguss, and something is definitely going to sleep (ice beam from a bulky Politoed barely does 30% HP). Keldeo wrecks it, though, for some reason.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Specs kingdra outside of weather is about as effective as specs flygon. One of them is a bit stronger, while the other is faster, more resistant to hazards, and has a better movepool.
What they both share is that neither one is worth justifying over another,mbetter specs Pokemon. Choice specs multiscale dragonite is better than both. It would be silly to say that kingdra can't do anything without a politoed to back him up. That isn't true. But a specs kingdra? You have to admit that you're only really using that in hopes that you meet a rain team. No other kind of team is threatened by it because it doesn't hit all that hard without its weather.
What they both share is that neither one is worth justifying over another,mbetter specs Pokemon. Choice specs multiscale dragonite is better than both. It would be silly to say that kingdra can't do anything without a politoed to back him up. That isn't true. But a specs kingdra? You have to admit that you're only really using that in hopes that you meet a rain team. No other kind of team is threatened by it because it doesn't hit all that hard without its weather.
The ignorance is strong in this one.
Stab draco meteor off 474 special attack is putting a massive dent in most of the metagame. If its not chances are specs stab surf is. Opponent got a ferrothorn? thats cool ive got hp fire.
Furthermore kingdra actually has very good typing with only 1 weakness and respectable bulk
Lets see how the top 20 mons fare against this "non threatening kingdra" using its stabs and hp fire ( not in rain btw)
Scizor: outsped and ohkoed by hpfire, surf koes with prior damage
Dragonite: outsped and ohkoed with multiscale,2hkoed with
Tyranitar: outsped and 2hkoed max unless scarf
Heatran: ohkoed, cant do much back as dpulse is rare
Rotom-W: standard set is outsped and ohkoed iirc, cant do much back
Terrakion: cannot switch in as ohkoed
ferrothorn: 2hkoed by hp fire, cant ohko back
Politoed: 2hkoed, cant do much in return
Gliscor: ohkoed
Jirachi: 2hkoed unless spdef which is 2hkoed in rain
Latios: cannot switch in as ohkoed
Starmie: ohkoed, can 2hko max in return
Skarmoury: 2hkoed max, cant do much back
Landorus: ohkoed
Salamence: cannot switch in as ohkoed
tentacruel: 2hkoed (i think) can only burn or toxic in return
Forretress: ohkoed by hp fire, 2hkoed by surf, cant do much to kingdra
gengar: ohkoed cannot ohko in return
celebi: 2hkoed needs LO leaf storm to ohko (i use signal beam sometimes)
Magnezone: outsped and 2hkoed needs specs to have a chance of ohkoing in return
Sure, specs kingdra isnt going to pull off a sweep unless its raining, but thats not what its job is, its job is to nuke stuff with specs attacks and as you can see it does its job extremely well.
Not sure why Flygon would use Specs, alphatron, when CB Flygon is many folds better :0
Specs Kingdra is a different story, though. Water & Dragon provides some phenomenal coverage that can most certainly take advantage of the ubiquitous rain to outmuscle mons like Ferrothorn.
Specs Kingdra is a different story, though. Water & Dragon provides some phenomenal coverage that can most certainly take advantage of the ubiquitous rain to outmuscle mons like Ferrothorn.
Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 192 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
The EVs are mostly arbitary, but I think I was going for a specific OHKO with the Attack EVs, I cant remember specifically. Its basically pumping most EVs into HP and SDef and leaving a bit left over to boost up his damage a little. With this set, Tyranitar takes little damage from non-specs Politoed, nothing from Ninetales in any situation, and can do massive damage in return even if they switch. Pursuit OHKOs Ninetales after SR! (I think...) He can even take the odd Focus Blast, and with SDef Hippo in the wings any Rain team is hurting. ;D
Dont think he is weak either! For example, he 3HKOs a Forretress switching in expecting Crunch with Stone Edge, allowing them only 1 turn to set up/spin. Not bad for what is basically a wall, eh?
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I've used specs kingdra before (and specs flygon during my...rather...shameful days of playing in early gen 4). My preference towards banded and specs Pokemon is that they have to be immensely powerful in order to justify being forced out the very next turn (let's assume you'll kill something).
Kingdra is by no means weak. You are right when you say that it has great typing and great coverage. My problem with kingdra is that it isn't strong enough. If I predict around the scizor and Tyranitar switches (or abuse their use of pursuit), then won't I get better results outside of rain with a specs Latios instead? I was wrong to say that teams outside of rain aren't threatened by it. What I should have said is that they'd be threatened by more powerful specs Pokemon who aren't as easy to force out. Aren't you essentially using a Pokemon whose job could be done better by another Pokemon outside of rain?
Perhaps I should hold my tongue before saying anymore, as I have not used specs kingdra since the garchomp ban. It might just be my bias talking. I'll hop on the server and give it a test run today.
For the record, showing me what kingdra can do to the top 20 pokemon is a moot point. Not only is the list obvious but I could make the exact same argument for beedrill for hilarity value. I'm trying to be serious here so you won't see me saying anything about +2 ice type natural gift taking down Latios switch ins.
Kingdra is by no means weak. You are right when you say that it has great typing and great coverage. My problem with kingdra is that it isn't strong enough. If I predict around the scizor and Tyranitar switches (or abuse their use of pursuit), then won't I get better results outside of rain with a specs Latios instead? I was wrong to say that teams outside of rain aren't threatened by it. What I should have said is that they'd be threatened by more powerful specs Pokemon who aren't as easy to force out. Aren't you essentially using a Pokemon whose job could be done better by another Pokemon outside of rain?
Perhaps I should hold my tongue before saying anymore, as I have not used specs kingdra since the garchomp ban. It might just be my bias talking. I'll hop on the server and give it a test run today.
For the record, showing me what kingdra can do to the top 20 pokemon is a moot point. Not only is the list obvious but I could make the exact same argument for beedrill for hilarity value. I'm trying to be serious here so you won't see me saying anything about +2 ice type natural gift taking down Latios switch ins.
Kingdra does have nice niche with some drop of Ferrothorn, but if it gains popularity ppl will just opt to insert back in teams.
Edit: Meant no hostility towards alphatron.
What is more valuable in this metagame, by your opinion: gliscor or landorus-T? Both have similar typing, can set up stealth rock, and can soak up physical hits. But, while gliscor has more reliable bulk, landorus has a higher attack. Gliscor, it seems, can take 1 hit of bullet seed from breloom, even maxed, although it can't KO back if breloom is jolly and has time for 2 bullet seeds. I have not run calculations of any sort for landorus, but is it 1. bulky enough to take breloom's hits and 2. able to hit it back harder than gliscor?
Also, which one is more useful in general?
Also, which one is more useful in general?
You may want to try Aqua Tail, as with all the rain running around, it might turn out useful for getting better coverage on steels.
Landorus-T definitely has a much better niche on offensive and bulky offensive teams honestly. Landorus is a solid check to Breloom, why Gliscor isn't. Gliscor still has merit though.
With sandstream, when in Tyranitar going to be able to use the rain boost on anything outside of ... Politoed, lol.
I've personally found Landorus-T to be more valuable than Gliscor. Though I do acknowledge that Gliscor has better overall bulk and reliable healing, I've found Landorus-T to be most useful as a bulky pivot for offensive teams. Most notably, he provides rain teams with one of the most reliable ways to get past Breloom and Tyranitar while still functioning just fine in rain. Breloom could otherwise attempt to plow through rain's favorite wall, Ferrothorn, while CBtar can often keep Politoed from coming in safely while smacking it with Pursuit if it tries to flee. With Landorus-T, you can combat such Sand teams without the need for Politoed to come in time and again to restore rain. Very useful IMO.
Haven't used this form myself. lol What about Tyranitars with Ice coverage moves? Tyranitar imo is a tricky fellow, as for Breloom do you wait for it to sleep something?
Well, I switch Landorus-T into Tyranitar with little fear as the only variants that run Ice Beam are slower and KOed by EQ. As for Breloom, I'll usually switch in something to scout for Spore and then bring Landorus-T in to Intimidate. If it SDs, then I have Latias in reserve to take on +1 Techniloom, which isn't nearly as scary as +2 Techniloom. You can also count on Landorus-T to, at the very worst, check every physical attacker in OU that neglects Water or Ice moves. This includes, but is not limited to, Scizor, Dragonite, Salamence, Breloom, Terrakion, and Tyranitar. Even if Landorus-T is too low on HP to handle these threats, you'll often have something capable of dealing with -1, +0, or +1 (depends on Scarf, DD/CB, or SD after Intimidate) variants of these threats. Just all around helpful IMO and he still has a raw base 145 Attack to work off of with moves like STAB EQ, SE, Superpower, and U-Turn.
True, they are slow. I was speaking more of on the switch get hit with Ice beam or Ice punch. lol Will have to try him soon just hasnt appealed my better side, though your insight has tempted me.
Most Ttars I've seen in BW2 are Choiced in some way (Scarf being more dominant) so this risk is greatly reduced as the bulkier sets for Ttar are much less common (in my experience) Only set I've used with Landorus-T is a bulky SR user with 196 HP / 96 Atk / 216 Def Adamant. Once it sets SR, it can then act as a check/counter to most physical attackers. Also provides some bulky offense to VoltTurn teams as it does have access to U-Turn. That raw base 145 Attack will force switches, even with minimal investment. Vaporeon and Jirachi are both decent partners as they give Landorus-T a means of reliable recovery in Wish. They also take Ice attacks for Landorus-T (Vaporeon absorbs Water moves too!)
I've honestly dealt with more DDTars more so in the past 3 days than I have dealt with in the past couple years. They're all offensive no doubt, but the majority have been Dragon Dancers from what I've seen.