BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[alexwolf]

If you're using Sub-Roost, you're probably better off using Dragon Pulse and Earth Power than Ice Beam and Earth Power. You aren't walled by Rotom-W, you get a much better hit on waters. The only thing you really lose out on is Amoongus, which isn't on Rain Teams to begin with and can't break the substitute anyway.

So what if you are walled by Rotom-W (if by walled you mean the 3hko that you get against most Rotom-W with Ice Beam)? You wall him too, and guess who is gonna run out of life/pps first? Rotom-W is nothing more than set-up bait for Kyurem, so being walled by him doesn't matter one bit.

What other waters you get walled by, really? Let's see... We have Starmie, which is 2hkoed by Earth Power, and can't do anything back, Tentacruel, which is 2hkoed by Earth Power and can't do anything back, Gyarados, which is hit slightly harder with Ice Beam than with Dragon Pulse (5 BP more) and we have Jellicent, which is one point for you (but it also gets walled by Jellicent). There is also Keldeo, where D-Pulse comes in very handy. Finally there is also Volcarona, that D-Pulse is useful against. And only offensive variants without Roost, as anything else sets-up on you no matter what STAB move you use.

Let's see now the targets that Ice Beam is better against. First of all Ice Beam ohkoes offensive Dragonite even with MS active. It also 3hkoes Ferrothorn, and has a posibility to 2hko with spikes, while with D-Pulse and EP, Kyurem is Spikes fodder. Oh and Skarmory too, gets 2hkoed by Ice Beam, while without it, you are again, Spikes fodder. It OHKOes Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T without any previous damage, while D-Pulse never ohkoes without SR, almost never ohkos Tornadus-T after SR and ohkoes Thundurus-T after SR, ~50% of the time. We also have any kind of Gliscor, Landorus or Landorus-T, that are ohkoed by Ice Beam, while not by D-Pulse. This may be useful if your Kyurem is at full health, and you want him to tank a hit and ohko back. Then there is also Celebi, which can wall you and force you out with Perish Song if it is specially defensive, if you have D-Pulse, but Ice Beam easily 2hkoes.

So Dragon Pulse makes facing Jellicent and Keldeo easier, and helps a bit vs Volcarona, while Ice Beam prevents you from being Spikes fodder against the best 2 Spikers in OU, gets some nice ohkoes on things that D-Pulse doesn't (flying-ground pokes, Dnite, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T) and beats any Celebi you will face.

So, imo, Ice Beam + Earth Power is easily better than D-Pulse + EP. This doesn't mean that it is always better, as some teams may prefer the benefits that D-Pulse brings, but overall Ice Beam pairs better with EP. But if you chose to use FB, then DP is they way to go, as Dragon + Fighting is perfect coverage, while also hitting many steels for super effective damage and having higher BP than EP, and preventing you from being Spikes fodder.

So to sum it up, Ice Beam + Earth Power > Dragon Pulse + Earth Power and Dragon Pulse + Focus Blast > Ice Beam + Focus Blast, IN GENERAL.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

*snip

CAN NONE OF YOUR CALCS BE CORRECT?

Not only that, but I've never seen anyone of his posts to be correct either. He just goes around insulting people, acting like his bravado will make up for the fact that he's new and nobody knows him.


*alexwolf In addition, I've used Kyruem on nearly every single one of my teams and I've never had a more effective combination then Ice Beam+Earth Power. Any water type that walls you can be broken down eventually with Sub blocking status, and roost restoring your health while attacking occasionally. Having Ice Beam is also incredibly useful when Scizor switches it. You attack, he breaks the sub, your Ice beam then demolishes him. And despite having the Steel Weakness, at high enough health he can shrug of the bullet punch.

The only pokemon I've run into trouble with on this set was CM Keldeo.

 

[Shouting]

Well, your also forgetting Politoed itself, Slowbro, and Vaporeon, all of which are hit harder with Dragon Pulse. Also, you are less likely to see Skarmory on a rain team, as well as Gliscor/Landorus than Jellicent / Vaporeon / Volcarona / Slowbro, etc. because most of them are offensive. (Gliscor and Landorus are 2HKO'd by Dragon Pulse anyway)

Ice Beam does has it's perks, but it's kinda ironic if you consider it anti-rain when it struggles with some water types that are on Rain teams.

No, Keldeo isn/t destroyed by sun, he doesnt take damage from the sun and fire moves don/t do extra damage.

Gliscor is NEVER OHKO'd by Ice punch. It does 28.81% max. Also, without stealth rock like you mentioned, it has a less then 1/3 chance to 2HKO. Following that, Gliscor has base 95 spe>85 for toxicroak. Toxicroak doesn/t even invest in speed for the bulk up and subPunch sets.

Jolteon never gets OHKO'd by sucker punch. 46.4%-54.9%.

Skarmory has a 0% chance to get 2HKO'd by a +2 Cross chop. In sandstorm and stealth rock, a 1.25% chance.
Following this:
0 Atk Gliscor vs 4/0 Toxicroak: 77-91%
0 Atk Skarmory vs 4/0 Toxicroak:79-94%
And according to the description on smogon, jolteon always OHKOs Toxicroak.

Please check your calculations.. if anything they are made up.

I assumed that Toxicroak has a Swords Dance boost when doing them, as you obviously aren't going to send a toxicroak into a Tornadus-T anytime soon. Sorry for the lack of clarity. I was saying if you switch in your Tornadus-T/Jolteon etc. into Toxicroak as it Swords Dances, they have a good chance of being OHKO'd by it's Sucker Punch.

 

[DrDLO]

Substitute Toxicroak, whether it's a Bulk Up / Drain Punch / Ice Punch or a Focus Punch / Ice Punch / filler moveset, is still pretty viable imo, and I've seen it used to good effect in this meta. It can set up on the likes of Ferrothorn, Choice-locked Keldeo, Politoed (the fact that Scarf Toed is becoming more popular to combat Tornadus-T only helps this), etc., and Tornadus-T is a bit leery of taking on Toxicroak with a Sub up.

For example:

Adamant 252 Atk LO Toxicroak Ice Punch vs 0/4 Tornadus-T: 81.6% - 96.3% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Toxicroak Ice Punch vs 0/4 Tornadus-T: 62.9% - 74.2%
252 Atk Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs 0/4 Tornadus-T: 33.4% - 39.5% (Nearly guaranteed follow-up KO)

Would jolly be worth it? LO Jolly 252 Atk Drain Punch (not even cross chop!) is 91-108% on 4/0 Mamo..hell you could even throw a few evs (I think) into HP with jolly. A nasty surprise if it thinks it's gonna outspend and KO with EQ...only thing is, are there other notable things in the speed tier that it will outspeed other than Mamo?

 

[alkinesthetase]

as for ice punch conk, i've seen it discussed a few times. the usual bulk up conk has a set of bulk up/drain punch, and then you have two slots left. the two slots are basically up for grabs between mach punch, stone edge, ice punch, and payback, and i guess a few other random coverage moves? (eg other elemental punches) if you give up mach punch, there goes your priority, but if you take mach punch, your coverage drops steeply. i guess it's a classical choice in pokemon - utility attacks, or coverage and power? i've seen good arguments for both in conk's case. as for sets running four attacks though (ie choice band), the decision is a bit more clear cut. i would classically prefer mach punch, but there are newer priority users in OU (techniloom, mamoswine) that compete. in addition, it's a tough life for non-specially-bulky fighting types when tornadus t is dropping hurricanes all over the place and there are so many fast flying types that resist your fighting-type priority, so perhaps people don't really feel like talking about conk in general

and as for haxorus with aqua tail, it's a cool tutor, but i think superpower had a lot more impact since it means ferrothorn has a harder time walling you. aqua tail doesn't help at all in that regard. i think aqua tail's main niche is on rain haxorus, where it serves as a pseudostab that hits many steel types neutrally (iirc, all the steels in OU are hit neutrally by water except ferro). obv you don't hit ferrothorn with aqua tail, but that's what superpower is for, right? (fine or brick break if you're feeling sissy =P)

as for ferrothorn with the golden trio of spikes/sr/leech seed, i think shouting has it about right on this one. it's tough to find time for spikes AND stealth rock in a meta as offensive as what we have right now and you're overloading a mon with too many time-consuming jobs, when it has other useful utility options. better to choose one hazard that you'll actually use, and take the other slots for attacks or support (cough thunder wave). in most cases, it's easier to actually use stealth rock than it is spikes, so it's obvious which one tends to win out. perhaps the trio will become more viable if the meta slows down, in which case there might actually be utility in having a mon that can set up so many hazards for the price of one teamslot. that's part of forretress's appeal as well imo - the ability to do so many hazard jobs for one slot is quite appealing. i imagine ferrothorn would be similar. if only there was more time for spikes to show off its full usefulness, ferrothorn would probably appreciate the newfound utility as well.

edit: and i'm not familiar with sub roost kyurem, or kyurem in general, so not much i can contribute there

 

[wobbahax]

Okay, usually I don't post but the stupidity of this post is too damn high.

I'm pretty sure you're the one with the messed up calcs or forgot to add ev's/natures/something.

Toxicroak (252 EVs, +Nature) Ice Punch vs Gliscor (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 55.3 ~ 65.5% (196 ~ 232 HP) 28.81% max? I think not.
Toxicroak (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Ice Punch vs Gliscor (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 108.4 ~ 128.8% (384 ~ 456 HP) Always OHKO@+2
Toxicroak (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Sucker Punch vs Jolteon (4/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 92.2 ~ 108.8% (251 ~ 296 HP) 57% to OHKO
Toxicroak (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Cross Chop vs Skarmory (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 53.2 ~ 62.8% (178 ~ 210 HP) 0% to 2HKO? I don't think so
Also,
Gliscor (0 EVs, Neutral Nature) Acrobatics vs Toxicroak (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 52.7 ~ 62.5% (162 ~ 192 HP) This is at half power
Skarmory (0 EVs, Neutral Nature) Brave Bird vs Toxicroak (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 99.6 ~ 117.9% (306 ~ 362 HP)

CAN NONE OF YOUR CALCS BE CORRECT?

lol, at least skarm OHKOs croak and i calculated earthquake on gliscor. also all of your calculations were at +2. After following these calculations without +2 my point is still there: Gliscor can take a hit and OHKO with earthquake, skarmory can OHKO with brave bird, jolteon can take a non-boosted hit.

 

[Bossness]

I agree that earth power and ice beams forms a better combination than Dragon Pulse + Earth Power. BTW use Subroost Kyurem with Toxic Spikes support and see your opponent rage quit as they are helpless against Kyurem. Toxic Spikes helps against Jellicent, Volcarona and Keldeo. BTW it doesnt matter that Ice Beam is resisted by water types, Kyurem walls them and drains out all their Hydro Pump, Focus Blast and Gyro Ball PP from Ferrothorn. The best counter to the set would be Jirachi if Kyurem isnt holding Life Orb.
236SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem (+SAtk) Earth Power vs 252HP/224SpDef Leftovers Jirachi (+SpDef): 50% - 59% (204 - 240 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. <-----Jirachi is a common switchin.
BTW this also makes ice beam+earth power better than Dragon Pulse+Focus Blast.
Another thing:
252Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom (+Atk) Mach Punch vs 56HP/0Def Leftovers Kyurem (Neutral): 75% - 88% (306 - 360 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.<----Rapid Spin support is normally given to Kyurem. This allows it to kill Breloom in a pinch. Kyurem is also at full health normally because it roosts as its sub is broken before being forced out.
4Atk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Superpower vs 56HP/0Def Leftovers Kyurem (Neutral): 60% - 71% (246 - 290 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.<----You can roost through this once. Hurricane does slightly more damage but it is risky to use it in hail
236SpAtk Kyurem (+SAtk) Ice Beam vs 4HP/0SpDef Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 124% - 146% (372 - 438 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
236SpAtk Kyurem (+SAtk) Ice Beam vs 4HP/0SpDef Multiscale Dragonite (Neutral): 103% - 122% (336 - 396 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252SpAtk Latias (Neutral) Dragon Pulse vs 56HP/0SpDef Kyurem (Neutral): 71% - 83% (288 - 338 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
236SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem (+SAtk) Ice Beam vs 252HP/0SpDef Levitate Latias (Neutral): 96% - 114% (350 - 416 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 78% chance to OHKO.

These are some cases where ice beam is better. Dragon Pulse is a lesser option. The only Dragon type that is neutral to ice type attacks is Kingdra. The rest are in Ubers.

 

[CrAZyMONkeYZ]

lol, at least skarm OHKOs croak and i calculated earthquake on gliscor. also all of your calculations were at +2. After following these calculations without +2 my point is still there: Gliscor can take a hit and OHKO with earthquake, skarmory can OHKO with brave bird, jolteon can take a non-boosted hit.

The first calc was croak @+0 which is a 2HKO on gliscor; standard SD Toxicroak outspeeds the top 3 gliscor sets which use neutral nature with 72 ev's in speed, so therefore toxicroak would still win in this situation assuming that gliscor switches into croak which it would since no one is dumb enough to switch toxicroak into any of the pokemon you listed.

Assuming that all the pokemon you listed switch into toxicroak the turn after it was originally switched in they would all die as any competent player would SD first turn expecting a switch-in, knowing these calcs. The only one with a chance of beating croak in this situation is skarmory, however if the opponent switches skarmory after a SD is already obtained, skarmory is then 2HKO'ed and loses.

 

[superbadd]

Anyone else try Tornadus-T on sun teams? With a sun boosted heatwave it can get past jirachi. It does a great job at removing threats that sun teams have trouble with.

 

[NoUserName]

I thought it(Tornadus-T in sun), but I don't think it could be a good idea, because his main STAB and great move is crippled to 50% accuracy.
But I think it could be a good idea for Tornadus-T carrying Heat Wave in a rain team, taking advantage when the others change the weather.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Tornadus-T has Air Slash if you want to use him outside of rain, but I am still curious to know what move he is using.

 

[NoUserName]

Tornadus-T has Air Slash but sucks, it has around half of the power than Hurricane, however has a 30% annoying flinch rate.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Yes; I never said that using him outside of rain is good, of course. Air Slash can be used outside of rain, but seriously, if you want to use Tornadus outside of rain, you should use the physical Tornadus-I variant (that with Acrobatics).

 

[alphatron]

I don't see what's wrong with using hurricane outside of rain. Still a great option and still viable.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I don't see what's wrong with using hurricane outside of rain. Still a great option and still viable.

You are using basically an Flying-type Focus Blast, unless you plan to use this only against opposing rain teams. You can use it for even more power, but you must be sure of the fact that it can miss on the worst times. It's like using Thunder outside of rain, but unlike Thunder, Hurricane hasn't any reliable and powerful alternative. I think that using these moves that don't get perfect accuracy outside certain conditions is simply not worth the extra power.

 

[Pocket]

alphatron, Hurricane in the Sun is 50% accurate :o

Outside of Rain, I'd probably use a Bulk Up Acrobat set. Heat Wave lets it bypass Steels. I don't think that loss of Prankster Bulk Up is much of a big loss - Regeneration, increased bulk, and its sexy Speed tier (no need to worry about ScarfTar) more than compensates for a priority Bulk Up, imo.

Tornadus-T @ Flying Gem
Trait: Regeneration
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive or Jolly Nature
~ Bulk Up
~ Acrobatics
~ Superpower
~ Heat Wave / Taunt / U-turn

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Using Hurricane outside of Rain usually isn't that much of a problem in and of itself. 70% accuracy is kinda low, but many Pokemon rely on Focus Blast for STAB or coverage under the same conditions. The real problem is trying to use it in Sun, since its accuracy drops from a shaky 70% to a very unreliable 50%.

I've personally tried a mixed Flying Gem Tornadus-T in the Sun before, with a Acrobatics/Superpower/Heat Wave/U-turn setup. The main problem I've found is that even with a Sun-boosted Heat Wave, Tornadus-T has a tough time getting past Jirachi without a Life Orb. It does let him barrel past other Steels like Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress, though.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the mixed set, lol.

 

[alphatron]

Oh I'm not talking about using hurricane under sunlight! I simply don't see the problem with using it outside of rain or whenever rain is down. Sure, the focus blast accuracy sucks but much like focus blast there is no better or more accurate alternative. (aura sphere is limited in distribution and air slash is just much weaker). I also see no problem with going the bulk up route either.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Using Hurricane outside of Rain usually isn't that much of a problem in and of itself. 70% accuracy is kinda low, but many Pokemon rely on Focus Blast for STAB or coverage under the same conditions. The real problem is trying to use it in Sun, since its accuracy drops from a shaky 70% to a very unreliable 50%.

Yes, but unlike Hurricane, you can't patch up Focus Blast's accuracy with anything outside of accuracy-boosting moves or abilities; so, you don't have choice. Either you use Focus Blast, or struggle to get past the things that resists your STAB/coverage moves. Hurricane is a different history. I don't know any Pokémon used in OU that gets Hurricane that doesn't get reliable alternatives outside of rain.

 

[Ricky Horror]

Don't quite understand the hype over Breloom with rise of Mamoswine, Genies, Latias Twins. It's rather easily to counter or at least semi-check. Though a +2 LO Mach Punch will do about 62% to standard Latios. It is a nice chunk, but it's still rather slow to get the +2 up and frail to pretty much take anything. Thundurs-Therian can kill with T-Bolt....

 

[ginganinja]

Everyone is hyping Breloom because it got a crapload stronger and still threatens your counter with Spore. Its also not as easy to counter as you maintain. For example, Spore + 3 Attacks Breloom, is going to spore something, and then throw out a Low Sweep, hitting your Mamo / Genie / Lati@s or whatever on the switch. If you survive, then great, Breloom still outspeeds you and goes for the OHKO. If you think its a Low Sweep set and opt not to bring out your counter immediately, boom, suddenly it Swords Dances etc etc. People are hyping Breloom because its harder to handle / check / counter than ever, and its very threatening in the current metagame.

Also just pointing out that its possible that Mamo / Genies and Lati@s are popular just because they can check Breloom, as well as other common threats in this metagame.

 

[Ricky Horror]

Everyone is hyping Breloom because it got a crapload stronger and still threatens your counter with Spore. Its also not as easy to counter as you maintain. For example, Spore + 3 Attacks Breloom, is going to spore something, and then throw out a Low Sweep, hitting your Mamo / Genie / Lati@s or whatever on the switch. If you survive, then great, Breloom still outspeeds you and goes for the OHKO. If you think its a Low Sweep set and opt not to bring out your counter immediately, boom, suddenly it Swords Dances etc etc. People are hyping Breloom because its harder to handle / check / counter than ever, and its very threatening in the current metagame.

Also just pointing out that its possible that Mamo / Genies and Lati@s are popular just because they can check Breloom, as well as other common threats in this metagame.

Exactly my point. lol All these checks/counters have risen not to him alone, but to other threats that can also handle Breloom, which is great for convenience. Aslo just keep a steady eye on your sleep fodder and the day is good. Celebi handles it quite well; fortunately Keldeo will raise Celebi usage and two birds with one stone. :) My point is there's plenty of Pokemon capable of taking a hit. Old favs like Volcarona and Dragonite among them.

 

[Shouting]

Yep, I'm using Celebi right now and it seems to stop all Breloom sets cold. I guess Amoongus could do the same, but I like Celebi better.

However, the Choice Band set can actually be kind of annoying, just because of the pure power it has. Luckily Breloom has nowhere near the amount of bulk Scizor has - it has not been uncommon for a resisted hit to do more than 50% on Breloom in my experience.

 

[Danger Mouse]

It's not that breloom is over-hyped...it really is that dangerous. Sure it can be beaten easily by certain things, but that doesn't make it any less of a threat.

 

[Joeyboy]

So I'm lovin' the new metagame :) gunna give some impressions on some of my favorite pokemon at the moment.

Props:

~Jirachi: Ah Jirachi, when will you cease to amaze me. Jirachi is my go-to check to the monster that is Tornadus-T. Between Sub-CM, Specially Defensive, and the Scarf set there seems to be a Jirachi for every kind of team. I've been using the Scarf set the most as it keeps up the offensive pressure that my recent teams have been trying to abuse.

~Latios: Man, how is it that Latios seems so much better in such a short amount of time. I believe its due to Tyranitar and Scizor's decreased usage. It seems the only pokemon Latios needs to try and break are Jirachi and the occasional pink blob. The fact that he also makes a great check to the overwhelming flow of fighters that invest our metagame makes him that much better.

~Breloom: This dude is amazing, Spore is practically a OHKO when used by a good offensive team. Plus the number of times I've Spored a pokemon and used Bullet Seed as they switched to their counter only to put it into Mach Punch range; it's countless. Plus late-game, a +2 Breloom makes mince meat of weakened teams.

~Tornadus-T: What can I say about this pokemon that hasn't been said already. Before, a lot of teams way of defeating Tornadus was to make it take more and more SR damage but with Regenerator they can kiss that tactic goodbye. Hurricane on blast :)

~Kingdra: This dragon was made to rip Rain teams apart. They usually only have Ferrothorn acting as a check and once its gone then Kingdra goes to town. Both the Specs version and the Dragon Dance sets both have their merits, Specs Hydro Pump in the rain is what playing Pokemon is all about.

Slops:

~Tyranitar: Seriously the only way I can get this guy to not be a total negative is as a Scarf version on a double Sand team. Other than that whenever I use him he just baits in any of those Fighters I keep mentioning.