BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Pocket]

Nice review of the meta, Joeyboy!

I'm gonna give props to Amoonguss. It provides a solid check to Rain's Electric and Water assaults and Breloom all in one Pokemon. Amoonguss survived a +2 LO HP Ice from Thundurus for me once! Its slow Spore is a big boon, as well as Stun Spore, too. I usually don't enjoy setup fodder mons, but Amoonguss is a really handy mon in this metagame, and Regenerator just keeps it around for the major duration of my games.

 

[wobbahax]

Nice review of the meta, Joeyboy!

I'm gonna give props to Amoonguss. It provides a solid check to Rain's Electric and Water assaults and Breloom all in one Pokemon. Amoonguss survived a +2 LO HP Ice from Thundurus for me once! Its slow Spore is a big boon, as well as Stun Spore, too. I usually don't enjoy setup fodder mons, but Amoonguss is a really handy mon in this metagame, and Regenerator just keeps it around for the major duration of my games.

It's not even set-up fodder, it gets clear smog :P I guess it's just not OU material because it doesn't have a strong presence with a certain function: yes, it counters top threats, but after that, it can't really do anything with its subpar attacking stats.

So I'm lovin' the new metagame :) gunna give some impressions on some of my favorite pokemon at the moment.

Props:

~Jirachi: Ah Jirachi, when will you cease to amaze me. Jirachi is my go-to check to the monster that is Tornadus-T. Between Sub-CM, Specially Defensive, and the Scarf set there seems to be a Jirachi for every kind of team. I've been using the Scarf set the most as it keeps up the offensive pressure that my recent teams have been trying to abuse.

~Latios: Man, how is it that Latios seems so much better in such a short amount of time. I believe its due to Tyranitar and Scizor's decreased usage. It seems the only pokemon Latios needs to try and break are Jirachi and the occasional pink blob. The fact that he also makes a great check to the overwhelming flow of fighters that invest our metagame.

~Breloom: This dude is amazing, Spore is practically a OHKO when used by a good offensive team. Plus the number of times I've Spored a pokemon and used Bullet Seed as they switched to their counter only to put it into Mach Punch range; it's countless. Plus late-game, a +2 Breloom makes mince meat of weakened teams.

~Tornadus-T: What can I say about this pokemon that hasn't been said already. Before, a lot of teams way of defeating Tornadus was to make it take more and more SR damage but with Regenerator they can kiss that tactic goodbye. Hurricane on blast :)

~Kingdra: This dragon was made to rip Rain teams apart. They usually only have Ferrothorn acting as a check and once its gone then Kingdra goes to town. Both the Specs version and the Dragon Dance sets both have their merits, Specs Hydro Pump in the rain is what playing Pokemon is all about.

Slops:

~Tyranitar: Seriously the only way I can get this guy to not be a total negative is as a Scarf version on a double Sand team. Other than that whenever I use him he just baits in any of those Fighters I keep mentioning.

I would argue that tyranitar is not a 'slop.' On offensive sand teams, hippowdon is a waste of a slot, since it is defensive. Tyranitar is the best sand starter for offensive teams AND defensive, with its great def stats boosted by sandstorm. While hippowdon doesn't get any offensive presence. Also, tyranitar has a boosting move that breloom would definitely love: Dragon Dance. Boosting attack AND speed at the same time is majorly effective, factoring in the fact that its speed is <b>1</b> greater than base 60 speed. While the destructive monster may be hit super effectively more often than not, not many things can switch in on it. Or they might switch in on a DD, and get OHKO'd. Tyranitar can even set up stealth rocks, adding to its ridiculous versitality. Running a mixed set can also get some suprise KOs.
~
Scarf on a Double sand team? the only way? i would say that choiced is worst because scizor can come in on a resisted attack and pursuit away. Also, a double sand team really isn't necessary unless your team is reaaly dependent on sand, with which i would probably try changing the team.

 

[Taylor]

Double Sand is Hippowdon and Tyranitar taking turns switching into Water/Grass-type attacks. The only way I would approach such a strategy would be with Tyranitar being specially defensive and perhaps with Rest + Sleep Talk, allowing Hippowdon to go all out in its raw defensive stat.

Alternatively I used Wobbuffet successfully in conjunction with Tyranitar in BW1, but the threats and teams have breathed new life with the release of BW2 which suggests it may prove difficult for Wobbuffet to trap key components of an enemy team.

What Joeyboy is trying to say is if you're looking to fill a spot in your team to help deal with rain, it may be wiser to randomly throw in Kingdra than it would be Tyranitar. He has a point with Choice Scarf; right now, I've been there or thereabouts dominating most teams with my sand team and that's largely down to the shock of Tyranitar's item. You reserve your surprise until the opportunity arises where you will OHKO with whichever move before they try to faint you, believing that they're faster until proven otherwise.

I've still yet to try Roost Volcarona because other than Magic Guard, a 50% recovery move serves this moth well when Quiver Dances need to be racked up in succession with a ScarfTerrakion looming. It might seem overlooked because the pace of BW2 may not appear to be as free willing as you wish to imagine, and thus Volcarona does not have the time to set up and heal as effective as Multi Scale Dragonite for example, but the combination of essentially one of the best moves in the game (Quiver Dance) and powerful SAtk to boot means there's always a chance.

 

[wobbahax]

Double Sand is Hippowdon and Tyranitar taking turns switching into Water/Grass-type attacks. The only way I would approach such a strategy would be with Tyranitar being specially defensive and perhaps with Rest + Sleep Talk, allowing Hippowdon to go all out in its raw defensive stat.

Alternatively I used Wobbuffet successfully in conjunction with Tyranitar in BW1, but the threats and teams have breathed new life with the release of BW2 which suggests it may prove difficult for Wobbuffet to trap key components of an enemy team.

What Joeyboy is trying to say is if you're looking to fill a spot in your team to help deal with rain, it may be wiser to randomly throw in Kingdra than it would be Tyranitar. He has a point with Choice Scarf; right now, I've been there or thereabouts dominating most teams with my sand team and that's largely down to the shock of Tyranitar's item. You reserve your surprise until the opportunity arises where you will OHKO with whichever move before they try to faint you, believing that they're faster until proven otherwise.

I've still yet to try Roost Volcarona because other than Magic Guard, a 50% recovery move serves this moth well when Quiver Dances need to be racked up in succession with a ScarfTerrakion looming. It might seem overlooked because the pace of BW2 may not appear to be as free willing as you wish to imagine, and thus Volcarona does not have the time to set up and heal as effective as Multi Scale Dragonite for example, but the combination of essentially one of the best moves in the game (Quiver Dance) and powerful SAtk to boot means there's always a chance.

Wobbuffet's my favorite lead. period. it can encore any support move, and switch to an appropriate set up-er. Stealth rock? Haxorus sweep! (hence the name..) Toxic? Scizor can swords dance/agility. T-wave? Thundurus-T can calm mind. Substitute? Anything with roar. the possibilities are endless; anything that dares to set up is immediately taken care of.

 

[Superpowerdude]

I havnt really tried this yet but I think slapping on a swift swim pokemon (Omaster,Kabutops,Kingdra, and Ludicolo) can help with the mass outbreak of rain teams Kingdra in particular because of its lack of a fighting weakness although I still think Kabutops would be cool.

on a side note has anyone had succes in using a swift swim poke to abuse opponents rain?

 

[2sly4u]

on a side note has anyone had succes in using a swift swim poke to abuse opponents rain?

Yeah, Kingdra absolutely demolishes Rain teams once Ferrothorn is weakened. People were just talking about him a few posts above yours. There's not much of a reason to try the other Swift Swimmers since Kingdra's basically the only one who can hold his own without Drizzle.

 

[Superpowerdude]

True Kingdra is the best one but you could also Argue that Kabutops is good because of Stone Edge to take out the therians, Volcarona etc and Brick Break for Ferrothorn so a sd set is quite good

 

[BurningMan]

True Kingdra is the best one but you could also Argue that Kabutops is good because of Stone Edge to take out the therians, Volcarona etc and Brick Break for Ferrothorn so a sd set is quite good

all of these Pokemon are destroyed by rain boosted waterfall/Hydropump and i would always use Super Power on Kabutops because you can't OHKO Ferrothorn at +2 with Brick Break.

 

[doughboy]

We have reached a sad point in the metagame if throwing a random swift swimmer on a team is a more viable option than a Poke who would synergize with your team much better.

 

[BurningMan]

We have reached a sad point in the metagame if throwing a random swift swimmer on a team is a more viable option than a Poke who would synergize with your team much better.

How could a Pokemon synergize better than something that alleviates a weakness and turns it into a possible advantage?

 

[Superpowerdude]

We have reached a sad point in the metagame if throwing a random swift swimmer on a team is a more viable option than a Poke who would synergize with your team much better.

This is true however I am not saying it is essential to all teams after all I dont run one I am thinking of trying Kabutops I just want to know if people have had succes doing this Also Kingdra happens to be relativly useful outside of rain as well maybe not as much as most dragons but it can still hold its own. So I dont think it is a more viable option in most cases then having a poke that synergizes well with your team. But if this random swift swim poke has good synergy with your team and your team seems rain weak witout it I think it is a viable option

 

[Antihaxxer]

I use a Kingdra on my Sun Team ... and I had this movepool Rain Dance / Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Outrage with Lum Berry (or Life Orb couldn't remember). And I hate moderate success with it (I didn't use Rain dance a lot, most of the time, it's just Dragon Dance - Outrage -_-)

 

[Psycho Cut]

This is true however I am not saying it is essential to all teams after all I dont run one I am thinking of trying Kabutops I just want to know if people have had succes doing this Also Kingdra happens to be relativly useful outside of rain as well maybe not as much as most dragons but it can still hold its own. So I dont think it is a more viable option in most cases then having a poke that synergizes well with your team. But if this random swift swim poke has good synergy with your team and your team seems rain weak witout it I think it is a viable option

True, I think this is the main reason why we see Kingdra more often than other swift swimmers, such as Ludicolo - it can hold its own without rain as well.

Firstly, there's the Dragon Dance set. Like anything with Dragon Dance, good bulk and typing and STAB Outrage, Kingdra poses a massive threat once counters such as Ferrothorn have been removed. It certainly not as viable as other DDers out of rain, but the added bonus of being at +2 in rain makes it pretty worthwile to take anyway.

Then there's Rain Dance + 3 Attacks set. I'm actually quite surprised that I haven't seen this set as often, it's pretty awesome after all. It's all about switching in on something you threaten, rain dancing on the switch and then nailing whatever comes in with an incredibly powerful LO-Boosted Hydro Pump/DM/Outrage. More often than not, your opponent will switch in a Scarf User, such as Thundurus-T or Salamence who, with a Scarf, outspeed Kingdra at +1, expecting a DD. Then of course they're faced with a +2 Kingdra...

 

[bubbly]

Has anyone had luck with a non-Rain defensive team? Hail works okay, although people are preparing for it better than when BW2 first came out. I've been trying Sunstall a bit actually which seems fun and surprisingly effective. Cresselia completely walls Keldeo, Tornadus, and some Thundurus in the Sun, and as has been mentioned there are a serious lack of Scizor, Tyranitar and Heatran around to counter it's CM set.

 

[PK Gaming]

I've gotta give props to Thundurus-T for being such an awesome offensive threat. I was a little to harsh on it before (I reprimanded before being so cheesy) but I really like it now. I'm split on what set I like more; Agility for being amazing against offensive teams, or NP for tearing apart open stall / balance teams.

Z
Z
Z

It's super effective.

 

[Joeyboy]

I've gotta give props to Thundurus-T for being such an awesome offensive threat. I was a little to harsh on it before (I reprimanded before being so cheesy) but I really like it now. I'm split on what set I like more; Agility for being amazing against offensive teams, or NP for tearing apart open stall / balance teams.

Z
Z
Z

It's super effective.

Thundurus definitely rocks :) Seems that all I see is the Choice Scarf set which I find pretty meh compared to its boosting sets. Agility in particular seems to catch me every time and lays some SERIOUS hurt on my offensive teams; then of course we have the Nasty Plot set which is the single reason I sacked my BW1 Rain Stall team xD which gets prompted stomped into the ground. On a side note, there is nothing better than using Rotom-W's Hydro Pump on the super obvious Thundurus-T switch, they want to take Volt Switchs so bad they forget about everything else haha.

To all the Kingdra talk above. Its awesome, the only serious negative I have about it is that when I run it I seem to never face Rain teams; then when I don't I face nothing but them :)

 

[EonX]

I've gotta give props to Thundurus-T for being such an awesome offensive threat. I was a little to harsh on it before (I reprimanded before being so cheesy) but I really like it now. I'm split on what set I like more; Agility for being amazing against offensive teams, or NP for tearing apart open stall / balance teams.

Z
Z
Z

It's super effective.

I personally prefer the Agility set on Thundurus-T since you can run Modest and Life Orb with it to get at least some of the power you would have with Nasty Plot. It's defensive typing is really good for this. With Agility, priority moves are the only way you're getting revenge killed by offensive teams and the only priority Thundurus-T is hit SE by is Ice Shard. (ESpeed is neutral)

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Strangely I haven't seen many people using Amoongus to check rain teams. I don't run a rain team but nobody that doesn't run rain teams is using Amoongus.

I'm going to try this idea of using Kingdra. It appears to be a solid check to rain teams. But I'm not going to run Rain Dance as it conflicts with Sand Stream and Heatran on my team.

 

[doughboy]

How could a Pokemon synergize better than something that alleviates a weakness and turns it into a possible advantage?

The reason it bothered is because using Swift Swim pokes is consistent enough to justify a team slot over a bunch of other stuff that can be used outside of exclusively counter rain. Before you pull out the Gastrodon card, Gastrodon has usability outside of rain and can counter things that aren't on rain teams (ussually). Swift Swim pokes, other than Kingdra, don't have any usability outside rain, but you can trust that the opponent will be running rain for you. It's like using a Chlorophyll user to check sun in BW1 its silly. I remmber during the Excadrill era people used Excadrill on non-sand teams to act as a "sand thief".

Has anyone had luck with a non-Rain defensive team? Hail works okay, although people are preparing for it better than when BW2 first came out. I've been trying Sunstall a bit actually which seems fun and surprisingly effective. Cresselia completely walls Keldeo, Tornadus, and some Thundurus in the Sun, and as has been mentioned there are a serious lack of Scizor, Tyranitar and Heatran around to counter it's CM set.

I have and its been a lot of fun. I actually say non-weather stall is a much more viable option than rain stall. You have an extra slot to deal with a certain threat or provide more utility like Toxic Spikes, a grounded Poison-type, a spinblocker, etc.

Cresselia is an interesting choice, but isn't annoying to have to win the weather war for it to work at its full potential? Maybe you try Latias since it can do similar things and it gives a lot of good resists (nice techniloom switch too).

 

[Shouting]

The reason it bothered is because using Swift Swim pokes is consistent enough to justify a team slot over a bunch of other stuff that can be used outside of exclusively counter rain. Before you pull out the Gastrodon card, Gastrodon has usability outside of rain and can counter things that aren't on rain teams (ussually). Swift Swim pokes, other than Kingdra, don't have any usability outside rain, but you can trust that the opponent will be running rain for you. It's like using a Chlorophyll user to check sun in BW1 its silly. I remmber during the Excadrill era people used Excadrill on non-sand teams to act as a "sand thief".

Kingdra checks starmie, pretty much every water type, OHKOs Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T, It 2HKOs Gastrodon, Amoongus, and Jellicent outside rain. It OHKOs Mamoswine, a good chance to 2HKO Jirachi (outside of rain as well). The list goes on. Kingdra is not useless Vs. a standstorm team, I'm using Specs Kingdra right now and it blows through Sandstorm teams as well, as their only Water resists tend to be Amoongus, Gastrodon, or Latios, which are all OHKO'd or 2HKO'd. I will admit, it doesn't do that great in Sun, but a 4x resistance to Fire really helps and most Sun teams don't carry a Steel type, as they tend to use Gliscor, Donphan or Slowbro as physical walls, making Dragon STAB fairly useful.

People did this kind of thing in BW1 too. No, people did not choose Venusaur because Grass and Fire coverage is walled by Fire types that were on the Sun team to begin with. People used Heatran and Scarf Infernape to better combat Sun, both of which benefited from the Sun while still being useful in other situations. It's the same idea here.

 

[2sly4u]

Strangely I haven't seen many people using Amoongus to check rain teams. I don't run a rain team but nobody that doesn't run rain teams is using Amoongus.

That's probably because Tornadus-T is on most rain teams. Amoongus' main niche is checking rain, but he can't really take a STAB Hurricane to the face. I think that when people were theorymoning about how effective he would be as a Rain check, they didn't take into account how popular Tornadus-T would become (and overestimated Keldeo's popularity). That said, maybe it's just me but I've been seeing the genies less and less as the metagame has begun to stabilize a bit, so Amoongus might still see a rise in usage.

 

[DrDLO]

Has anyone had luck with a non-Rain defensive team? Hail works okay, although people are preparing for it better than when BW2 first came out. I've been trying Sunstall a bit actually which seems fun and surprisingly effective. Cresselia completely walls Keldeo, Tornadus, and some Thundurus in the Sun, and as has been mentioned there are a serious lack of Scizor, Tyranitar and Heatran around to counter it's CM set.

I've also been playing around with a semi-rain stall with pretty solid results. With the increase in Tornadus-T usage over its incarnate form, a lot of defensive rain pokes can withstand a LO hurricane and heal off the damage (eg. specially defensive jellicent takes 33%-39% from a modest max spA tornadus-T). Once any ground/volt-absorber pokes are out of the way, I usually can throw in Thundurus-T to sweep. Additionally, Thundurus-T is great for absorbing electric attacks aimed at many rain pokes and will heal off SR damage on the switch on a predicted electric attack.

 

[Ricky Horror]

Anyone notice how Tornadus forces a Jirach and/or Mamoswine to be on every team. At least it has to my own experience, also love not seeing much Scizor leaves me to use my own. ^^ Priority seems crucial more so then in BW.

 

[peng]

Anyone else been using Aerodactyl?

Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Taunt
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Roost

In this metagame anything that can outspeed and OHKO Tornadus-T unboosted is automatically pretty decent, but Aerodactyl takes it one step further than the others and can actually tank its hits pretty well in Sand. I've been using Aero on some balanced teams with SDef Hippowdon / Skarmory / Fat Starmie / Water resist / Scarfer / Aerodactyl sort-of structures and it actually works pretty decently. Max Speed lets it beat Scarf Politoed by one point, but if you aren't bothered about that then 252 Atk / 72 SDef / 184 Spd beats standard Tornadus-t while giving you extra SDef bulk to tank its hits better (not like you are surviving any physical attacks with 72 HP instead anyway).

Sub / Roost / Rock Slide / filler with a bunch of HP and SDef investment is also pretty cool for Pressure-stalling, plus it very easily tanks hits from common defensive Pokemon like Amoonguss which is everywhere.

Biggest problems with it are Slowbro and Breloom being pretty popular, as well as a lack of any good physical Flying-type attack. I've tried Aerial Ace purely for catching cocky Breloom's as they Swords Dance but honestly 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom doesn't want to take a Stone Edge to the face anyway. Why doesn't he get Brave Bird :'(

 

[doughboy]

Alright this is a quotefest so got to save some space

response to Shouting

Swift Swim pokes, other than Kingdra, don't have any usability outside rain, but you can trust that the opponent will be running rain for you.

You didn't catch the bolded part. You (and I) are right, Kingdra is the exception to the rule in that it can be effective outside rain.

People did this kind of thing in BW1 too. No, people did not choose Venusaur because Grass and Fire coverage is walled by Fire types that were on the Sun team to begin with. People used Heatran and Scarf Infernape to better combat Sun, both of which benefited from the Sun while still being useful in other situations. It's the same idea here.

No it isn't the same idea. Infernape and Heatran benefit from sun, but they do not rely on it. When you slap a Swift Swim Poke on a team, you bank on the chance that your opponent is running a rain in order for it to be effective. You need your opponent to fulfill a very specific requirement for the poke to function (i.e. rain), which isn't the case for Infernape and Heatran.

Alright if the Venusaur does not satisfy you, a much better analogy which I have mentioned before was when people brought up the idea to run Excadrill on non-sand teams to check opposing sand-teams.

Response to PeguinX

Anyone else been using Aerodactyl?

Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Taunt
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Roost

In this metagame anything that can outspeed and OHKO Tornadus-T unboosted is automatically pretty decent, but Aerodactyl takes it one step further than the others and can actually tank its hits pretty well in Sand. I've been using Aero on some balanced teams with SDef Hippowdon / Skarmory / Fat Starmie / Water resist / Scarfer / Aerodactyl sort-of structures and it actually works pretty decently. Max Speed lets it beat Scarf Politoed by one point, but if you aren't bothered about that then 252 Atk / 72 SDef / 184 Spd beats standard Tornadus-t while giving you extra SDef bulk to tank its hits better (not like you are surviving any physical attacks with 72 HP instead anyway).

Sub / Roost / Rock Slide / filler with a bunch of HP and SDef investment is also pretty cool for Pressure-stalling, plus it very easily tanks hits from common defensive Pokemon like Amoonguss which is everywhere.

Biggest problems with it are Slowbro and Breloom being pretty popular, as well as a lack of any good physical Flying-type attack. I've tried Aerial Ace purely for catching cocky Breloom's as they Swords Dance but honestly 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom doesn't want to take a Stone Edge to the face anyway. Why doesn't he get Brave Bird :'(

Aero isn't going to be tanking hits without any defensive investment. If you want to go offensive with Aerodactyl drop Roost, drop Pressure, and drop taunt asap. You can keep Life Orb, but if you want Aero to cleap up late game he needs all the power he can get with his decent attack and more accuracy. Yes this is the classic CB Aerodactyl:

Aerodactyl (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Stone Edge

Rock Slide is the go to option to clean up late game so you don't have to rely on Stone Miss. Trade Pressure in for Rock Head Double-Edge which hits pretty hard and is a nice 100% accurate move. Can use an elemental fang of course.