Idk how in any way this poke did apply to C+, literally just take a look at C mid and you did see pokemon that can do notably more offencively then Wooper. On the defencive department the majority of pokemon that tend to do simalairly are in the C+/B- group like Lileep/Chespin however these pokemon offen have more going for it then just walling capasity. Take for instence the ability to set up hazards efficiently.The fact that I have used it plenty before with pretty good success. The fact that Water Absorb Wooper totally bones Chinchou, Magnemite, and Skrelp which are A+, A, and A-. The fact that it can punish these forced switches with Scald. The fact that you can't set up on it because of Yawn. The fact that it's also useful against other threats like Carvanha, Archen, Drilbur, Ponyta, Corphish, Onix, Omanyte, Staryu, Dwebble, Tirtouga, Elekid... I could go on.
It has a definitive niche and is at worst C+. I even prefer it to numerous mons in B-.
Passing a Torchic boost to Crani seems difficult at best. Torchic has trouble reliably passing Substitutes, and given that Torchic lures in Water- and Ground-Types, Cranidos is going to have a difficult time coming in.Well cranidos is limited by its speed which means that only one thing can help it cover from that, and thats Torchic.
Torchic Speed Boost Baton Pass can help Cranidos sweep.
All of those comparisons are correct but that still doesnt mean that phanpy doesnt have a niche as a tank, which is where it greatly differentiates itself from the other ground types in lc. The only other ground type that has phanpys bulk is only matched by hippopotas who lacks many of the key offensive moves that make phanpy a useful offensive pokemon while being bulky enough to be able to switch in to and beat physically offensive threats. Although Phanpy and Hippo have the same base stat total which is a tie for third in lc among ground types (behind onyx and rhyhorn), there movesets differentiate the tasks which they are suited for. If you are looking for a wall then hippo fills that role better due to its recovery but if you want an offensive threat that can still keep an offensive presence then hippo cant compete with phanpy due to phanpys access to knock off and ice shard. Knock off allows it to cripple walls and ice shard gives phanpy priority which is useful in koing weakened threats or giving chip damage to an opposing pokemon before phanpy faints. It may be tempting to think that phanpy is a hippo without sand stream is tempting because of there similar stats and typing but the utility they bring to a team is very different because they fulfill different roles. These offensive capabilities is how phanpy differentiates itself from hippopotas and carves out a niche in the meta which makes at least being listed in the viability rankings in D rank if not C or C-Even though Phanpy has these excellent coverage moves (not superpower bc play rough hits darks too + fight and doesnt drop ur atk and def), I still find it to be lacking when it comes to performance. Comparing it to the other ground types (especially those listed) doesn't cement your case in my opinion.
Diglett is much faster and supports the team better offensively while having a stronger non-stab priority, even though Diglett is hitting less hard.
Phanpy is bulkier and has a better coverage selection.
Hippopotas supports a whole archetype (sand) as well has having better bulk, power and solid recovery with phazing ability (inlove).
Phanpy has a better coverage selection
Onix is faster, Sturdy Juice for longevity, and cool tools like Taunt to stop other hazard leads it doesnt tie with.
Once again, Phanpy has a better coverage selection. It's technically bulkier since Onix has low HP and SDef while having much higher Def.
Drilbur is faster, can spin and set, and has a usable ability along with offensive pressure.
Phanpy is again, bulkier and has a better coverage selection
One you didnt list was Sandshrew, who has Knock Off, SR and Rapid Spin with somewhat less bulk and more attack power.
Next, Phanpy has 4mss like a mofo without the coverage. I would guess it would be nice to strike like Purrloin trying to Taunt you with Play Rough or hitting a Phish switchin with Seed Bomb but how do you justify using these moves when really you can just click KO and get rid of their item? Then hit them with EQ as they set up / KO you back / Taunt? In most cases the coverage moves hit harder yet it's very situation dependent as well.
Don't get me wrong, Phanpy has some cool tools to utilise like Play Rough to strike common switchins / leads like Purrloin and Mienfoo, however it lacks slots to keep it centric as well as it falls behind other ground types in movesets, abilities and overall stats.
All of those comparisons are correct but that still doesnt mean that phanpy doesnt have a niche as a tank, which is where it greatly differentiates itself from the other ground types in lc. The only other ground type that has phanpys bulk is only matched by hippopotas who lacks many of the key offensive moves that make phanpy a useful offensive pokemon while being bulky enough to be able to switch in to and beat physically offensive threats. Although Phanpy and Hippo have the same base stat total which is a tie for third in lc among ground types (behind onyx and rhyhorn), there movesets differentiate the tasks which they are suited for. If you are looking for a wall then hippo fills that role better due to its recovery but if you want an offensive threat that can still keep an offensive presence then hippo cant compete with phanpy due to phanpys access to knock off and ice shard. Knock off allows it to cripple walls and ice shard gives phanpy priority which is useful in koing weakened threats or giving chip damage to an opposing pokemon before phanpy faints. It may be tempting to think that phanpy is a hippo without sand stream is tempting because of there similar stats and typing but the utility they bring to a team is very different because they fulfill different roles. These offensive capabilities is how phanpy differentiates itself from hippopotas and carves out a niche in the meta which makes at least being listed in the viability rankings in D rank if not C or C-
Ehh, as long as you have sucker punch and pivot Croagunk well, you can kill both trappers with sucker punch before too long. Granted, having to choose between running 2 priority moves or limiting croagunk's effectiveness is a toughie, but the existence of diglett and gothita doesn't just immediately mean it's dead the moment one of those gets in on it in the same way a lot of fire types, rock type and fighting types struggle against the trappers.The main problem with Croagunk is that it gets killed by both trappers in LC which hinders its use greatly. Of course it is still a great mon to use, but this fact and several other weaknesses prevent it from rising higher. B+ is a good place for it. Also try to avoid double posting.
- Omanyte KOes BJ with Earth Power or evio after a shell smash.Croagunk from B+ to -> A-
Here are my reasons
~ Although Gothita can OHKO Croagunk with Psyshock or Psychic, Croagunk has a great coverage move in Knock Off and Sucker Punch. Same thing with Pumpkaboo-Super
~ It can check powerful defensive mons like Ferroseed, if its running Nasty Plot - Vaccum Wave
~ With Dry Skin it can check Omanyte, Corphish, Staryu, Skrelp, and Shellder since they rely on Water STAB and can Vaccum Wave Omanyte to death.
Vulpix and Houndour are never going to switch into you, so Bulldoze is not an option. Houndour isn't OHKOed by Vacuum Wave either.~ Although Vulpix and Houndour destroy Croagunk with there STAB Fire moves, Houndour can be OHKO'd by Vaccum Wave or Gunk Shot and makes the move Bulldoze a great coverage move option for Vulpix and Houndour.
You're gonna have a tough time switching into snivy or Snubbull, since Leaf Storm + HP Fire or Earthquake easily KO Gunk. Chinchou can also volt switch out, and isn't easily KOed either (Gunk really doesn't have anything apart from Gunk Shot to hit it hard).~Also for some pokemon in higher ranks can be killed by Croagunk like Snivy, Chinchou, and Snubull
Seed Bomb hits about as hard as EQ, and the ground types that are going to switch in Phanpy don't really care about any of its attacks anyway (eg. Hippopotas).Phanphy has Seed Bomb and can destroy many Ground types that try to get in its way.
I did be quoting to Fiend on this one as this drop still has to be made.Lickitung from B- to B
This mon is actually really good and underused imo. It has great natural bulk and is an amazing special wall. It can pass massive wishes and pairs really well with a lot of other mons. It also get Body Slam for that para chance, and it also gets a bunch of other coverage moves/support moves it could run. With heal bell, knock off, and even curse, this mon can do a lot for a team. Really underrated and underused.
I can talk a long time on why licki shouldn't be listed for most of the ''possitives''. Munchlax is: A better special wall, Body Slam that atleast does damage (lovely 19 attack), Better Curse user and just amazingly seeming for the meta, even though I did still not say Munchlax should move up. Whirlwind while not that used did still be able to take a part away from your ''unique'' ability to phaze. The only things Munchlax doesn't have compaired to you did be better defence, Knock Off and Cleric support.: B- to C+; Agree
Hi, let’s move this one down already. To quote myself from earlier in this thread,
''Licki actually has some really cool things it can do, in Counter and SD plus the standard stall-y sets. Tahu was playing around with Licki on full stall recently and ran a set with bloody thunder punch to fully cover Fletchling / Oma / Shellder for example. However, Counter is kinda awful versus Scarf Foo or even just HJK Mienfoo. SD acts are decent lure too, but this makes Licki fail to do anything besides lure or provide a single time check to sweepers. Curse can theoretically work amazingly, but the only plausible reasons to run this over Munchlax is you're playing Missy meta or running Dragon Tail (which is bad). It's all really niche though not inherently bad always, which is why I've been a proponent of it falling down to C+.''
First of, the fact it's hindered by 2 trappers. This poke is one of the most powerfull wallbreakers in the LC metagame. It doesn't need any special attack boost, it doesn't need a turn to get ready, it's just ready from the get go. While Skrep is hindered by Diglett, Gothita doesn't 1v1 win against Skrelp as it can 1HKO goth about as reliably by surving a Psychic and 1HKO'ing it using Sludge Wave/Hydro Pump depending on hazards. Skrelp is slow but is very usefull with teams that get around this like T-wave spam, Tailwind or even Trick room, these all allow you to get around the speed issue and become one of the most deadly pokemon in general but even with that n mind that shouldn't even be concidered.Skrelp from A- to B+ or B
Skrelps faults are obvious; it's beaten 1 on 1 by every trapper in the tier bar Trapinch (lol), and it's famed ability to nuke things and punch holes just isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Firstly:
236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 36 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Skrelp: 14-20 (63.6 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Skrelp: 18-26 (81.8 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
While it's technically not a guaranteed OHKO for either of them, Skrelp is incredibly easy to whittle down, and Diglett can even technically switch into a Sludge Wave after Skrelp takes some damage (maybe not the best idea tho, unless you have balls of steel.) I really cannot understate how incredibly damaging it is being easily beaten by both of these Pokemon.
What's more, the standard Skrelp set is only 10 speed, getting easily outran by a lot of things that it's meant to beat, like EQ Snubull and Ponyta(Wild Charge Pony is best Pony, no argument).If Skrelp runs hp fire it's walled by Croagunk, and if it runs hp psychic it's walled by Ferroseed.
Overall, Skrelp just isn't what it's made out to be, and while it's still a good pokemon for many teams, A- isn't the place for it- the same tier that has Corphish (the best DD'er in LC), Omanyte, (debatably the best Shell Smasher in LC), and Ferroseed one of the bulkiest and most annoying thing in LC.)
Machop from D to C-
Yeah, this is not going to make me any friends, especially since I considering it forAC or C+. I'll settle for this tho, no need to piss too many people off.
It's often proclaimed by salty players that Pokemon is only 50% skill, and Machop embodies this sentiment.
Put simply, Machops niche is No Guard+STAB Dynamic punch, and it is one of the most frustrating and annoying niches in existence. Confusion needs to not be a thing in gen 7... With a little bit of Pursuit and something to deal with fairys, this little ball of androgynous muscle can potentially be harder to deal with than you might think. Every single turn the opponent hopes to do something, they have to deal with a 50% chance, while being hit with a 150 power attack.
With the standard Scarf set Machop outspeeds pretty much everything, and with a respectable 17 attack, it hits a lot of things surprisingly hard. While I'm not saying this should often be used over Mienfoo or Timburr, but it also doesn't deserve to be lumped in with Ekans and Litleo.
EDIT: I also agree with the Honedge, Zigzagoon, and Snivy noms. Vullaby is overated and Lickitung is garbage tho.
I never said Machop was superior to Timburr/Mienfoo/Croagunk, I'm merely saying that with the right support it can be an enormous pain to kill. Also, no, Mankey is literally a worse Mienfoo- as far as I know there is actually no reason to use it over Smogonweasel. I've never used Pancham and I've never really encountered it on a serious team before, but I'd like to point out that it's aaallll the way up in B, whereas I'm only suggesting that Machop be put into the lowly C-.Machop on the other hand has very little to offer compaired to the existing Fight types. Timburr for instance outclasses all it could do with Bulk up/Guts besides Bullet Punch and that's not too notable. The Choise Scarfed set faces Scarfed-Mienfoo as main problem but even Pancham/Mankey(I am awair LO is the item to go with mankey) can be more reliable with that thanks to having a way of pivoting around.
You're missing the point. ofc Machop isn't as strong as Mienfoo HJK, but that's not why you'd (theoretically) use it. You'd use it because it can simultaneously do a decent/good amount of damage while giving the gift of the most annoying status condition in this/any game.Choise Scarfed Dynamic Punch doesn't do mutch compaired to HJK from Mienfoo (Idk if you think it's 150 Base or not but Dynamic is ''only'' 100)causing it to miss out on important KO's against neutral opponants. Just an important calc: 196 Atk Machop Dynamic Punch vs. 156 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Porygon: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock while Mienfoo only needs to get the hit
Timburr also get's walled by all these things- every mon has it's counters basically, and even with things like Foongus you can Knock it off on the switch and get out of there, weakening it for any of your counters to these mons (somewhat ironically, Skrelp would be one of the better Blanket counters to all three of these mons...) As for the scarf thing, neither Goth or Mag want to switch into a D-punch when you count in the confusion.The 50% to confuse chance is irritating but doesn't stop walls like Foongus, Spritzee, Snubble from walling you as a Fight resist/Checks are mandatory for any team to the point people run more then just 1. Not even talking about the fact you are slow compaired to any other Choise Scarfed pokemon as 15 Spe Scarfers like Gothita, Magnemite can pivot away from you/1HKO.
Rufflet is a lot like Machop, in that it has a lot of competition from same-type mons, but still has a recognisable niche- I'd say Machop and Rufflet should be in the same tier. You are waaaay over-hyping Remoraid as well- the water spout set is outclassed by Water Spout Frillish and loses a lot of power after a couple of switch-ins to hazards, and Ice beam+STAB is literally every water type except Magikarp. Bullet seed does laughable damage to any bulky water as well.Now finally lets compair it to the other pokemon in C- : Rufflet has 2 irritating sets with the more changeable Bulk Up set and the surpising Choise Scarfed set. Remoraid has many options in terms of coverage with the Choice Scarfed set allowing it to demolish with Waterspout, nice coverage with just Icebeam+ STAB and break sturdy/sash and the remaining resists using Bullet Seed + Hustle. while not too reliable and mostly some extreems, it's still a reliable wallbreaker(Only walled by Munchlax, Ferroseed, Lileep and Rest-Talk Mantyke excluding the potential other coverage options like Fire Blast and Rock Blast) aswell as an offencive monster against about anything that lacks priority.
The thing is, Machop has confuse hax. If your comparing Machop to Karrablast without factoring 50% chance bullshit, then you're not comparing Macop to Karrablast. Also, Karrablast is: Weak to stealth rock, has a terrible typing and a meh movepool, and is outsped by the 153 17 speed mons in LC if it carries SD.A very nice to compair one however is Karrablast, it also has No-Guard but unlike machop it's STAB is generally even worse. Now what does it have? 15/16 speed and 17/18 attack, a Choice Scarfed set and a Swords Dance set. Both are very different to deal with as the Scarfed set can check fast threats while SD can get around some notable walls.