Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0

[Merritt]

I'm not opposed to Machop moving up. I hate how a large portion of its effectiveness relies on hax, but at the same time having used it more than I used to I can't deny that it's more useful than a significant amount of the stuff in D.

Hax should not be the entirety of an argument against a mon moving up. While it's certainly something that should be taken into account due to not being entirely reliable, if the luck-based part of the Pokemon has no real downsides then there's not much of a reason to use that as an argument against it. For Machop, Dynamic Punch confusion is not something to be held against it in terms of viability, although it's certainly something to complain about if your opponent brings it.

Machop as a scarfer has several important things going for it. First is, of course, Dynamic Punch. The confusion that this move brings with it means that checks and counters have to be significantly safer than usual, as a Pokemon that is 2HKOed but can OHKO back has a 50% chance to fail in checking Machop. This also helps Machop's not terrible bulk, even with a choice scarf. When spamming its STAB Machop is just statistically less likely to be hit by an attack, making its bulk better than the numbers, similar to how Regenerator gives Mienfoo greater bulk than it seems. This amount isn't nearly as much as Regenerator, but it helps.

A second thing going for Machop is its interesting coverage options. Like almost every Fighting-type Machop does get Knock Off, but it also has access to Earthquake, Ice Punch, and Poison Jab. Rock Slide is another option, but I'm not personally a fan of it. While being locked into Earthquake or Ice Punch isn't great, what these moves offer is a way to prevent most Poison-types and Ponyta from countering Machop. This in turn means that Machop has fewer things able to switch into Dynamic Punch without getting nailed by coverage.

Is Machop a great Pokemon? No, but while it has does have some reliance on hax to be as (or arguably more) effective than things like Scarf Mienfoo and lacks pivoting it's still effective overall.

All that being said though, I think it's more a D rank Pokemon than C-. I can just see it as a potential low C- Pokemon.

Mankey's more effective than you're giving credit for though Reuniclause.

 

[rhydonphilip]

I never said Machop was superior to Timburr/Mienfoo/Croagunk, I'm merely saying that with the right support it can be an enormous pain to kill. Also, no, Mankey is literally a worse Mienfoo- as far as I know there is actually no reason to use it over Smogonweasel. I've never used Pancham and I've never really encountered it on a serious team before, but I'd like to point out that it's aaallll the way up in B, whereas I'm only suggesting that Machop be put into the lowly C-.



You're missing the point. ofc Machop isn't as strong as Mienfoo HJK, but that's not why you'd (theoretically) use it. You'd use it because it can simultaneously do a decent/good amount of damage while giving the gift of the most annoying status condition in this/any game.



Timburr also get's walled by all these things- every mon has it's counters basically, and even with things like Foongus you can Knock it off on the switch and get out of there, weakening it for any of your counters to these mons (somewhat ironically, Skrelp would be one of the better Blanket counters to all three of these mons...) As for the scarf thing, neither Goth or Mag want to switch into a D-punch when you count in the confusion.



Rufflet is a lot like Machop, in that it has a lot of competition from same-type mons, but still has a recognisable niche- I'd say Machop and Rufflet should be in the same tier. You are waaaay over-hyping Remoraid as well- the water spout set is outclassed by Water Spout Frillish and loses a lot of power after a couple of switch-ins to hazards, and Ice beam+STAB is literally every water type except Magikarp. Bullet seed does laughable damage to any bulky water as well.



The thing is, Machop has confuse hax. If your comparing Machop to Karrablast without factoring 50% chance bullshit, then you're not comparing Macop to Karrablast. Also, Karrablast is: Weak to stealth rock, has a terrible typing and a meh movepool, and is outsped by the 153 17 speed mons in LC if it carries SD.

Anyway, I need sleep something awful, so I'll just leave it at that for now. If anything is obviously missing from that post, it's because I'm tired and hurrying.

A poke doesn't need to be superior, it just needs a niche. A niche to differentiate itself from the other pokemon that did do simalairly. Basically it needs something to outshine on some part rater then being outclassed
On a side note: Mankey works generally better with the LO set, something not compleatly outclassed by Mienfoo. Pancham is a poke you really should know more about by reading the smogon dex as me explaining it did just be a bold shorted version.

You are missing my point, hax while irritating should not influence a pokemons viability as saying it gives it a niche. This is pretty much what your posts are impying or did I interpretate it incorrectly?

Counting in the confusion shouldn't be important. The generall idea of something hindering it's answeres by just a side effect shouldn't plain make it able to beat anything in a blank reguard. By this logic about anything did be beaten by confusion damage. It's like suggesting a pokemon gets excess to Confusion Ray did make it able to beat it's counters so that's a niche. Moves like Knock Off for example should influence but not give a pokemon a niche based on it's side effect but rater it's offencive uses as a powerfull Dark attack for coverage. Scald is another of such moves but is used over Surf as it's damage difference is rarely important, in the cases it is, it's still sometimes(rarely but existing) used over Scald. These 2 moves are without a douth the most argued on moves as saying ''oh it has Knock Off so it Is/More/As viable as X mon, because X mon doesn't get it''. Even when a poke couldn't fit on this move, is a special attacker or has no reason to run this coverage outside of it's side effect.

I have no idea why you did ever switch in a Scarfed pokemon on anything that isn't resisted or takes little to no damage. For example you wouldn't switch Scarfed Mag into anything without being sure it can take on whatever did come in on that reguard. Ofc this is short put as Mag can be used for many things if it can get an opportunity. Compairing a check to a counter also is wrong. You can't assume a poke that can check you is going to switch into you at risk of being 1HKO'd Goth for instance doesn't like Knock Off while Mag shouldn't ever be switched into it, exept if it's locked into a useless move like Poison Jab/Rock Slide as it takes little or no damage from it. These were just 2 examples to point out Machop is still slow compaired to other Choise Scarf users. Mienfoo for example has 17 speed to combine with Scarf. Again just a randome example of a scarf user.

The point with remoraid being it's versatile. It has allot of coverage with some being extreem example like waterspout. This doesn't mean it's the main niche.
The ability to get past bulkier water types with Hustle Bulletseed and more of it's coverage put it appart from Frillish even when keeping in mind Trick/Energieball on frillish side. If I did be overhyping I did suggest it's ranked too low, in contrairy even. I currently think it's ranking is fairly suited.
On the Ice+ Watercoverage. That was just coverage explanation, never implying it's special for a pokemon to run that coverage or have it.

The thing is:
Karrablast does have a terrible type however faces only competition from 1 single other physica bug type being Larvesta and even in that they are different. While Machop needs to compeat for a slot (or one of mutliple) as a Fight type. Again not in the assumption you need a fight type, but in the idea of it being a common thing. Even with compleatly different uses the pokemon offen struggle being put on because there niche isn't big enough, not good right now or something being more important for such a team.
For low ranks this should not be as mutch of a problem as they are generally insuperior for taking on multiple tasks, thanks to there small window is use. They do however should still be utilised for dealing with the nessesairy things as not mutch else could do the job for it. Take for example Munchlax. This doesn't mean the pokemon can't be utilised, but it does mean it hinders the overall use and viability of the pokemon. This is all viewed from a serious perspective however as Machop is ment and should be used for dealing with such threats.

Sorry for it being a long post.

 

[RZL]

This is the definition of C - Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.
Notable as in they are either good with their niche or they are the only Pokemon to possess such a usable niche.
Now the definition of D -Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are generally bad in the LC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their occasional use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Their niche is often so tiny, that they are not worth using the majority of the time.

Machop indubitably fits in D Rank, because its niche is being a scarfed Fighting-type attacker. Its completely outclassed otherwise. No-guard scarf is its only niche. Machop is better than other D- Rank Pokemon, but it has more and better competition for the same role. Most Scarfers beat Machop due to its rather slow Scarf speed. Mienfoo deals more damage and is more resistance to hazards than Machop, while not relying on a 50/50 to survive the turn. Machop also lacks U-turn which is a significant move for any revenge-killer. Machop is just worse in comparison to other Scarfed Fighters.

 

[Puckish]

For my first post I'd like to ask something.
Why isn't there a tier just for Mienfoo?

 

[Merritt]

For my first post I'd like to ask something.
Why isn't there a tier just for Mienfoo?

Mienfoo is not clearly the most viable Pokemon in Little Cup. Despite some people's fondness for calling it the 'pdon of LC' it's really not the best comparison. Mienfoo is incredibly splashable and can fit on most teams - a better comparison might be to Landorus-T in OU where it simply fits on many teams but is not necessarily better than some less used Pokemon.

Personally I don't even think it's the best Pokemon in the metagame, although it's incredibly clear that it's top 3.

 

[Santa Reuniclause]

You are missing my point, hax while irritating should not influence a pokemons viability as saying it gives it a niche. This is pretty much what your posts are impying or did I interpretate it incorrectly?

Counting in the confusion shouldn't be important. The generall idea of something hindering it's answeres by just a side effect shouldn't plain make it able to beat anything in a blank reguard. By this logic about anything did be beaten by confusion damage. It's like suggesting a pokemon gets excess to Confusion Ray did make it able to beat it's counters so that's a niche. Moves like Knock Off for example should influence but not give a pokemon a niche based on it's side effect but rater it's offencive uses as a powerfull Dark attack for coverage. Scald is another of such moves but is used over Surf as it's damage difference is rarely important, in the cases it is, it's still sometimes(rarely but existing) used over Scald. These 2 moves are without a douth the most argued on moves as saying ''oh it has Knock Off so it Is/More/As viable as X mon, because X mon doesn't get it''. Even when a poke couldn't fit on this move, is a special attacker or has no reason to run this coverage outside of it's side effect.

Okay, this is a point I will argue till' I'm blue in the face- hax is important. This is Pokemon, and not counting RNG into your game is just silly. Also, the difference is the Confuse ray takes up a spot in your moveset, and only has the single effect of causing confusion; whereas Dynamic Punches confusion chance allows it to score damage with it's main STAB at the same time.

Anyways, forcing a 50% chance every time Dynamic Punch is far more than "irritating". What's more, the 5% or 10% damage that confusion causes can wear things down over time, as well as give potentially free switches.

This is the definition of C - Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.
Notable as in they are either good with their niche or they are the only Pokemon to possess such a usable niche.
Now the definition of D -Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are generally bad in the LC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their occasional use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Their niche is often so tiny, that they are not worth using the majority of the time.

Machop indubitably fits in D Rank, because its niche is being a scarfed Fighting-type attacker. Its completely outclassed otherwise. No-guard scarf is its only niche. Machop is better than other D- Rank Pokemon, but it has more and better competition for the same role. Most Scarfers beat Machop due to its rather slow Scarf speed. Mienfoo deals more damage and is more resistance to hazards than Machop, while not relying on a 50/50 to survive the turn. Machop also lacks U-turn which is a significant move for any revenge-killer. Machop is just worse in comparison to other Scarfed Fighters.

Notable as in they are either good with their niche or they are the only Pokemon to possess such a usable niche.

That is literally my point- you could say that nothing outclasses Machop, since it's the ONLY mon that can use No Guard Dynamic Punch effectively (Not even going to bother bringing up Golett.) Therefore it is both "good with it's niche" and the "only pokemon to possess such a usable niche"

And again I make my same point, it might be inferior to Foo or Burr, but it also basically does it's own thing and is far more annoying than either of them It also 1v1's Abra just as well as Timburr.

 

[RZL]

No Guard Dynamic Punch is an ability and a move, not a niche. If that were a niche so would every move Diglett has because it is far more effective than Trapinch. Niche is like a role, it feels a role in the metagame. Machop's niche is being a Scarfed Fighting-type attacker.

 

[Puckish]

Mienfoo is not clearly the most viable Pokemon in Little Cup. Despite some people's fondness for calling it the 'pdon of LC' it's really not the best comparison. Mienfoo is incredibly splashable and can fit on most teams - a better comparison might be to Landorus-T in OU where it simply fits on many teams but is not necessarily better than some less used Pokemon.

Personally I don't even think it's the best Pokemon in the metagame, although it's incredibly clear that it's top 3.

I know. Everything that you said makes sense.
But he is so versatile, even if he isn't the strongest mon at the moment, you don't know what to expect from him sometimes.
I'd like to question some other ranks tho:
Drifloon only A+? I think he has a spot in S right now.
Stunky only B? I think he deserves a little bit more.

 

[Corporal Levi]

You're right that Mienfoo is very versatile, and each of its more popular individual sets are really good as well. I would argue that in this regard it's comparable to Pawniard and Porygon, which also have a variety of viable sets.
Drifloon is currently only A+ because now that the metagame has adapted to it somewhat and people are starting to carry its checks more frequently, it's not as likely to cleanly sweep teams. Occasionally it may even be rendered close to a dead weight if the opposing team has nothing it can set up on. There are definitely some people who still think it should be S-rank, though, because it's extremely versatile, and each of its major sets can both support its team and act as a significant offensive threat.
Stunky is B because it can't do much outside of its intended role in trapping a few specific Pokemon and Defogging, which makes it fairly match-up reliant to be useful. If the opponent does not have a frail Pursuit-weak Pokemon and does not stack hazards, Stunky will often be rendered fodder, making other trappers that are useful in a lot of scenarios more desirable for most teams. Sending Stunky in also has its disadvantages, as it tends to give opportunities for threatening Pokemon like Drilbur and Archen to get into play. In addition, Diglett is very popular, and Substitute variants can easily trap Stunky, preventing it from trapping more than one Pokemon or Defogging more than once.

By the way, if you're trying to formally suggest a change to the rankings, it's a good idea to consider including some reasoning in your post so that it's more convincing. If you're just curious about a Pokemon's placement, of course, that's totally fine as well.

 

[rhydonphilip]

Okay, this is a point I will argue till' I'm blue in the face- hax is important. This is Pokemon, and not counting RNG into your game is just silly. Also, the difference is the Confuse ray takes up a spot in your moveset, and only has the single effect of causing confusion; whereas Dynamic Punches confusion chance allows it to score damage with it's main STAB at the same time.

Anyways, forcing a 50% chance every time Dynamic Punch is far more than "irritating". What's more, the 5% or 10% damage that confusion causes can wear things down over time, as well as give potentially free switches.





That is literally my point- you could say that nothing outclasses Machop, since it's the ONLY mon that can use No Guard Dynamic Punch effectively (Not even going to bother bringing up Golett.) Therefore it is both "good with it's niche" and the "only pokemon to possess such a usable niche"

And again I make my same point, it might be inferior to Foo or Burr, but it also basically does it's own thing and is far more annoying than either of them It also 1v1's Abra just as well as Timburr.

I seriously don't know why you don't understand my point. Viability shouldn't be related to RNG based elements. Viability is based on <name subtier explanations of S, A, B,C and D>. It having the side effect of a move like Confuse Ray was just in comparison to how useless the idea of it was, rater then suggesting anything about the move. Dynamic Punch is basically Fight coverage + Concusion effect but compairing it once again with other fight types the confusion effect is the only distinctive difference. I am not goin to compleatly go over the other things machop can do as those are what should earn it the D ranking.

Hax are imprortant as it's one of the only thing that can't be improved by the performance of the player allongside damage rolls/match up and such.
However Hax still shouldn't possitively influence a pokemons viability if the reliability of it is neither favorable or unfavorable in this case a 50/50 split mutch like a speed tie. A niche and this is something machop only has in scarfed fight type without pivoting options.
The self damage from confusion is literally the least of your problem compaired to not being able to attack, what while irritating and able to allow you to beat offencive pokemon on important moments can in no way allow you ''free switches'' as these are RNG based. You can't expect this to reliabily give you a free switch or turn as it's neither infavor of you or the opponant.

 

[Puckish]

By the way, if you're trying to formally suggest a change to the rankings, it's a good idea to consider including some reasoning in your post so that it's more convincing. If you're just curious about a Pokemon's placement, of course, that's totally fine as well.

Nah I'm not suggesting a change, just asking about those Mon's.
By the way, thanks for your post, it actually helped understanding some things about this meta.

 

[gali]

if machop gets raised that will only encourage more people to use it. do you really want that?

 

[Nineage]

If you talk about thunder wave being broken it will only encourage other people to use it. Do we really want that?

 

[tehy]

if you make a shitpost you will only encourage other people to shitpost

i do really want that

 

[Ununhexium]

If you talk about thunder wave being broken it will only encourage other people to use it. Do we really want that?

yes because then more people will realize its broken and push for a ban!!!

 

[apt-get]

But... Hax DOES count, rhydonphilip. If it's a useful move (very useful, in machop's case), then why not take it into account when ranking the 'mon? Jirachi was so highly ranked BECAUSE of paraflinch. I doubt chinchou would be as good if it didn't have scald.

Everything that significantly increases a mon' s chance of crippling the opposing team or winning match-ups should definitely be accounted for when ranking it.

Machop has a 50% chance of getting out absolutely unscathed of a turn. That's the "equivalent" of a +4 evasion boost, and it's incredibly useful. Being able to 2hko and ohko what you could only 3hko or 2hko before it's amazing.

Machop DOES have a lot of shortcomings, but it definitely deserves to move up.

 

[rhydonphilip]

But... Hax DOES count, rhydonphilip. If it's a useful move (very useful, in machop's case), then why not take it into account when ranking the 'mon? Jirachi was so highly ranked BECAUSE of paraflinch. I doubt chinchou would be as good if it didn't have scald.

Everything that significantly increases a mon' s chance of crippling the opposing team or winning match-ups should definitely be accounted for when ranking it.

Machop has a 50% chance of getting out absolutely unscathed of a turn. That's the "equivalent" of a +4 evasion boost, and it's incredibly useful. Being able to 2hko and ohko what you could only 3hko or 2hko before it's amazing.

Machop DOES have a lot of shortcomings, but it definitely deserves to move up.

While you do not contradict me with your point of hax mattering as I literally noted it in my previous post your example of jirachi just isn't correct. I would just be noting the same as something put in an OU viability ranking but let's short it. It was ranked for it's utility as a scarf user primairly. It's typing allowing it to beat Fairy types like Clefable/Gardevoir aswell as pokemon like Latios effectively while still being different from Mega Metagross by item, not taking in mega slot, Pivoting use and other Utility like Stall, Wish/Healing Wish passing. The Scarf set actually is the set that takes least use of the 60%(>more infavor for you but still not allowing you to always gain free turns as the stall set is ment to create more duration for it to work better.) compaired to the Special Defencive set as it allowes you to more effectively stall the opponant. For Jirachi specifically there is no doubt it infuences the viability of the poke but it's not the main reason it's viable unlike what you specifically noted If the flinch chance would be so viable as you note, Togekiss would have been the better example with the stall breaker set and that's sill decently ranked B.
Jirachi even right now was argued to rise to A+, it ended up not rising as it's answeres simply were too effective at dealing with about anything it could do:
Heatran still resisted and compleatly shut down anything Jirachi could do while Garchomp punishes any move it could go for outside of the 20% to burn with Fire punch while you take a good chunk from Rocky + Skin, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn(if lacking Fire Punch) and many more of sutch pokemon see
Albacore:
''Jirachi to A+: As great as Scarf Jirachi is for balance and bulky offense (trust me, I use it on like, half my teams), it’s still extremely vulnerable to a lot of very common Pokemon, such as Garchomp, Rocky Helmet Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and yes, Volcanion. Because of this, it has a really hard time outlasting its checks, and you need to make sure stuff like Gardevoir doesn’t switch in more than once or twice if Jirachi is your only good check to it. So yeah, as much as I like Jirachi at the moment, it’s really not A+ material.''
-From the Viability ranking V4.
If I had more time I did go over other older viability rankings/quotes to add to this point.

On Chinchou's point I already made a part of it about scald in my previous post however I will go more into this one.
Scarfed Chinchou doesn't nessesairly run Scald, it runs Hydro Pump over Scald a decent amout of times simply because it actually does pick up more important KO's. Sure it's more spam able especially with bulkier pokemon making it generally a prefered option as it allowes for longer durability compaired to a set that would ''lack on offence'' anyway.'(Not implying Chinchou doesn't have any force when making use of a bulkier set.)
Machop doesn't have this bulkier option to be reliable as it would be prone to even more opponants thanks to being even more outclassed by other Fight type options. Machop just isn't in the same compairable group as the only thing going for it did be it's haxing utility what if you did want to take it into account it did be the most blocked of all forms as Fight is one of the most anticipated types when it comes to teambuilding this is why Gothita was the first thing that came to my mind a trapper compleatly able to shut down Machop thanks to it's offencive lack of speed, Does it mean the pokemon is unuseable because a trapper exists? No. Other options like defencive examples come with pokemon like Spritzee, Snubble, Foongus offen being used allong side other options that can durably and very offen reliably wall you or check you.

Still this poke can manage to find a niche in it's utility already taking in the Dynamic Punch and coverage while other fight types like Again: Mienfoo mainly, Pancham with already less optimal set to what it can run, Mankey is bad in general but still has Pivoting option. And still outside of this, simalar to how the dex describes Machop. That is it's only niche just as the Dex and many before have described it. This is why I disagree for it to move up. If you want to compair what is in the D-tier and suggest it is more then some pokemon but a small group of pokemon should be unranked in general as no one has opposed to them dropping at all like Piplup, Oddish and Shroomish as repeated a couple of times before.

 

[tcr]

Just move machop up already dynamicpunch is more than enough of a viable niche to put it at C-

Fuck

 

[Fiend]

Hey guess what:

Machop is moved to C-

Quote please make the change on the OP for me
nvm hawk is cute

The movement of pokemon in other tiers should not nor does it affect the ranking of pokemon in LC; the fact that Rachi moved down is almost entirely unrelated to the topic of Machop, save the fact that it managed to be move up so high partly due to its ability to flinch down pokemon it has not right beating which is somewhat akin to Machop's ability. Don't discuss other tiers here please, unless the matter is extremely relevant.

rhydonphilip I'd also recommend avoiding strawmanning arguments as well, purposeful or otherwise.

 

[Celestavian]

I did it already!

 

[Fiend]

oops, we slightly neglected this; changes from the last month to be added:

Houndour will be dropped to B+. :(
Vulpix will be dropped to B+.
Pumpkaboo will be dropped to B+.
Dwebble will stay at its current rank.
Deerling will finally be raised up to B-.
Sandile will be ranked and placed in C+.
Budew is being added and ranked at C.
Mankey will be raised to C.
Wooper will be added and ranked at C-.
Gible will be added and ranked at D.
Piplup will be dropped to D.
Oddish will be dropped to D.
Litleo will be dropped to D.

Anything you disagree with, present reasoning before this is implemented; if there are any disagreements, it should be addressed with adequate reasoning within a few days--otherwise the change will be done. Other previous nominations will be addressed later, but were not aptly discussed before (such as Zig moving B+ to B).

 

[tcr]

I see no reason to drop Vulpix, as it is its own archetype that isn't heavily countered by one Pokemon. The fact that madoka's sun team still stands strong today is a testament to how solid a team might be. IMO, Vulpix is a really good Scarfer that can be fit on a lot of teams as well as a Sun supporter in how it supports cool Pokemon like Deerling or Bellsprout, and for that reason it has 2 solid niches (its arguably better than Houndour because it brings Sun-boosted Fire Blasts as well as not being weak to Fighting-types, although that distinction doesn't really come into play too often) in a Fire Scarfer and a Sun setter. At the very least, separate Houndour / Bellsprout from Vulpix. There is no reason that a Pokemon that is 1) largely outclassed in most aspects should be in the same tier as the Pokemon that outclasses it, and 2) there is no reason that Bellsprout, a Pokemon that is ONLY useful when paired with Vulpix, should be in the same tier as Vulpix, who has more than one niche. For this reason I propose either leaving Vulpix alone and keeping Houndour / Bellsprout at B+ or Dropping Vulpix but also dropping Houndour / Bellsprout down to B, Bellsprout possibly to B-. With things like Trace Porygon, Vullaby, Chespin, Fletchling, etc Bellsprout just simply isn't all that good, it just happens to be the best Sun sweeper.

Drop Pumpkaboo lower. Pumpkaboo in all its iterations is just goddawful, being complete setup bait for things like Pawniard (lol you'd really stay in to WoW when he has Pawniard in that can oneshot you with some prior damage?...), complete setup bait for hazard setters like Ferroseed, Chespin, Dwebble, and Pineco, all of which I at least run on spike stacking teams. It fails to actually spinblock like its supposed to, as it only beats Bulky Staryu, and still loses to Ice Beam predictions with about 5-10% of damage and Rocks up, it loses to LO, has a chance to lose to regular offensively invested Staryu without Rocks being up and minimal damage, and loses to Sandshrew, who is gaining in popularity. Drilbur is the only Pokemon that it reliably beats, but then again Drilbur is also ass sooo. Pumpkaboo is basically a free switchin for my Porygon / Foongus / whatever to come in, tank 3% from Bullet Seed, and fire off Thunder Waves / win 1v1. Its forced out by Foongus and thus loses momentum against the tiniest things. The only thing its marginally decent at is an Abra "check" by which it just forces Abra out to come in and do the same things over and over again, which really suck if you don't clear hazards. Its garbage please don't use this ever. Basically Drop this further because its one of the biggest baits for a lot of Pokemon since Trubbish

Fail to see why Budew is getting ranked, and at such a high ish ranking. Spikes setting is done way better by Pineco / Chespin / Ferroseed, while Tspikes setting is done way better by offhazard setting Skrelp sets, as well as Spinarak. It "walls" fighters I guess? Mienfoo just clicks Knock Off then U-turns out to something that can oneshot it. I guess I'm kinda ok with this after talking with Fiend a bit, but IMO C is too high, it'd probably be better at C- just for the sole purpose of being extreme setup bait and not overtly walling too much (like chespin at least has bulletproof that lets it fuck with Foongus).

Drop Pumpkaboo-Small from B- --> C / D. Again, this thing is really bad. It is no way as good as mons like Amaura / Honedge (both of which should probably move up anyway).

whatever I ran out of steam typing this up and stopped caring halfway thru, but those are my thoughts on some of the suggestions, I'll probably look back at this thread in a couple days and try to bump something up, probably amaura or something.

 

[Merritt]

Piplup will be dropped to D.
Oddish will be dropped to D.
Litleo will be dropped to D.

Weren't these Pokemon D already?

I don't think Mankey should rise all the way to C. C- is a better spot for it. It's a fine fighting type, nice in that it beats Snubbull who's been rising in popularity due to Defiant and Gunk Shot, but on the other hand it faces some extremely heavy competition, specifically from Mienfoo. The tools it has to make it different from Mienfoo are Earthquake, Gunk Shot, Defiant and the elemental punches. Mienfoo in return has significantly better bulk, especially factoring in regenerator, Knock Off, and more power. Gunk Shot is slightly offset by Mienfoo's access to Poison Jab, but the lack of Knock Off is pretty significant, since it allows for Drifloon to come in on it quite easily and doesn't let Mankey weaken its counters as well as Mienfoo can. Close Combat is neat in that it can't miss but a use turns Mankey's already bad defenses into complete paper. It can use a scarf set and spam U-turn but then again why wouldn't you use Mienfoo for that?

Mankey is good when paired with another fighting type (generally Mienfoo actually) since it can break down counters very well. It gets props for being able to beat Snubbull better than any other fighting type bar Croagunk, but overall it doesn't stand with the things in C and fits in with the stuff in C-.

A new nomination too, Spinarak to C-. I defended this before when it was nominated to drop to D, and I still believe that it's the best bulky web setter, but there's not as much call for that as there once was. Defog is no longer the most common form of hazard removal, so being able to set up webs multiple times isn't as important, and webs as a whole isn't as good as it used to be. It's still a threatening playstyle and Spinarak is still a fine user of Sticky Web, but it's not a C rank mon.

 

[tazz]

Kind of new nomination that I bought up a while ago but there was no discussion on it: aipom to B+. Despite its reputation, it's undeniable that when used correctly it is a very threatening addition to both balance and offensive teams. I'd like to see some discussion on this, but for now I see little reason not to. I agree with all the proposed changes except vulpix, I think that LO and sun support are still relevant enough for A-.

 

[Santa Reuniclause]

Lileep from C+ to B-

I am so incredibly surprised this is only in the lowly C+. It's so much better than anything there that it's not even funny.

For a start, Lileep has access to reliable recovery, giving it a definite niche over Ferroseed- a Pokemon that many may say outclasses it. This allows it to come in a lot more times than a lot of other stealth rockers. It also allows it to potentially toxic stall things, though I probably wouldn't suggest it.

Storm Drain combined with Giga Drain can actually keep a lot of offensive pressure against some teams, since it has a cool offensive typing and ability to easily get to +1 (It also gives it some fun synergy with ground types against things like Chinchou.)

Comparing it to other C+ Pokemon is another reason for a rise- Apart from Magby, which I might make an argument for some other time- it outclasses everything else there by a mile and a half.

Need more? Look at the definition of C:

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.

Well Lileep certainly doesn't require much support, it's a fairly basically bulky SR'er that has some nice toys to use. As I said before, while Ferro is better a fair amount of the time, Lileep still has the advantage of Recover, slightly better offensive pressure, and access to Giga Drain, which is better than Bullet Seed most of the time, so it's not always outclassed.

Overall, Lileep is a great mon that does NOT deserve to be in the same group as Inkay and Axew.

EDIT: Oh cool, I support that Aipom rise. Fake Out+Last Resort really gives that mon a bad reputation :/