Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0

[Fiend]

Wow what a way to tank a thread guys...
quick post bc short on time:

Houndour should drop to B+ bc of what Merrity said, it's been a long time coming. Vulpix too. Shellos should drop, maybe even further than C+ bc of what Merr said as well.

Bellsprout should also drop a sub rank as it is dependant on Vulpix, which itself should be dropping. They should not be equal due to the dependency on Vulpix for Bellsprout to be good.

Gastly is on the verge of dropping I feel, as faster pokemon are indeed commonplace despite Gastly's high speed. But it stays above dropping due to how it punishes less offensive teams and is an absolute bastard to switch into. Plus the even less splashable ScarfLy set can screw over offense teams and such, mostly due to being uncommon imo. Also the fabled WoW / Hex gastly is viable enough to pressure offense while breaking apart defensive cores and ravaging the 17 speed tier.

Pumpkaboo should also drop, as it is a terrible water spam check (Oma and Tirt beat it w/ sr and a smash, Phish has as strong Knock for it, Carv has its STAB, Skrelp overwhelms, does beat chinchou), bait for snivy, barely beats staryu, loses to every defogger, cedes momentum almost always, and does very little to be splashable or threatening enough to sit in A-. It doesn't have the longevity it would like either, due to scald burns and 8 pp with Synthesis. Doesn't beat Diglett too well, and Drilbur isn't super common anymore. 80%+ of the A ranks beat it too. It only spin blocks, burns something, and gets chip (important tho) w/ Ssneak, doesn't really excel beyond that.

Dweb and munch might also deserve to drop a subrank.
I really don't know why munch is so high at all...

 

[infamy]

Wow what a way to tank a thread guys...
quick post bc short on time:

Houndour should drop to B+ bc of what Merrity said, it's been a long time coming. Vulpix too. Shellos should drop, maybe even further than C+ bc of what Merr said as well.

Bellsprout should also drop a sub rank as it is dependant on Vulpix, which itself should be dropping. They should not be equal due to the dependency on Vulpix for Bellsprout to be good.

Gastly is on the verge of dropping I feel, as faster pokemon are indeed commonplace despite Gastly's high speed. But it stays above dropping due to how it punishes less offensive teams and is an absolute bastard to switch into. Plus the even less splashable ScarfLy set can screw over offense teams and such, mostly due to being uncommon imo. Also the fabled WoW / Hex gastly is viable enough to pressure offense while breaking apart defensive cores and ravaging the 17 speed tier.

Pumpkaboo should also drop, as it is a terrible water spam check (Oma and Tirt beat it w/ sr and a smash, Phish has as strong Knock for it, Carv has its STAB, Skrelp overwhelms, does beat chinchou), bait for snivy, barely beats staryu, loses to every defogger, cedes momentum almost always, and does very little to be splashable or threatening enough to sit in A-. It doesn't have the longevity it would like either, due to scald burns and 8 pp with Synthesis. Doesn't beat Diglett too well, and Drilbur isn't super common anymore. 80%+ of the A ranks beat it too. It only spin blocks, burns something, and gets chip (important tho) w/ Ssneak, doesn't really excel beyond that.

Dweb and munch might also deserve to drop a subrank.
I really don't know why munch is so high at all...

agree but pix shouldnt drop. its really good right now i can pass you a team if you want. pumpkin should drop 1 rank at most its still decent just not as good because balance isnt great rn. munch is good spatker check, plus it has pursuit, variety of viable sets: recycle + 3 atks, restalk phazer, curse. dweb im not sure about, i like it rn but honestly the good set is smash. higher up its a good surprise factor and wallbreaker. everyone knows how to beat the hazards set at this point.

 

[rhydonphilip]

I agree with literally any part Fiend just noted bar Munchlax and dwebble, I hate dwebble and the argument of Is the hazard set better or the smash set. I honestly don't care what of the 2 set's is the better one it's just able to effectively prove value being ranked with either or the combination of those set's.
I do know how annoying I have found Dwebble to be as a lead if you don't have a Taunt user to the point I just lead off with Strayu to remove that 1 just put up SR or spike. The smasher set has not too long even had a little argument on it's last move slot on showdown chat brining up some valid points both sides really. The poke has flaws but it has some outshining parts that other smashers can't complement to.

Munchlax has already been noted by Infamy however I also want to add the Rest-Talk set in general, while yes it's a momentum drain it's still one of the best set's.
able to outdamage opponants with Body Slam and ensuring it stays healthy and Status free. It's argueable against the Physical Drifloon set in terms of stalling it out however it can outdamage Calm Mind drifloon with ''weak'' Pursuit.

Pumpkaboo-S while I made a shit argument list that was more oriented for keeping it in even though about half of the calcs were evidence it should drop while the other half was good for it to stay. I compleatly set away from that as it's utility while amazing against Diglett/Ground aswell as dealing with Psychic types is where the list mostly stoped. Once SR go's up it loses to a good bunch of the things it's ment to check in the first place. Crazy-Russian was right it lacks defencive capasity compaired to other walls in the A list. It did also very well suit the description of the B+ ranked pokemon. I am not going to argue the other set that is TR as well.... I tried TR many many times sometimes it does show allot of viability as it's a play style people don't prepair for but it's just an overall lacking play style that is mostly very obviously visable what you will face based on just the looks of the opponants team.

 

[Get Hype]

Grimer should be at least C tier. It beats a lot of the better pokemon in the tier including mienfoo, ghastly, pawniard, timburr, fletchling, snubull, spritzee, and snivy. Even two of its biggest checks abra and goth don't get off unscathed due to the big damage they take from shadow sneak which puts them in ko range from a weaker priority move. Grimers versatility in the pokemon it can check make it an asset to put on a team and makes it a useful pokemon in almost anygame it plays in. Although grimer does have sticky hold and benefits greatly from it, that is far from the only it can do due to its high stats and access to a good offensive move pool.

Phanpy definitely deserves to be on the viability rankings due to its niche in having great bulk and wide move pool which includes knock off and priority in ice shard. Phanpy can tank most of the meta and can set up rocks and use roar or run a coverage move (head smash, gunk shot, seed bomb, play rough, super power) to punish whatever you need to be able to beat. In the current meta however a rock coverage move is probably the best, these moves allow the player to customize phanpy's set to whatever their team needs. Despite competition for a slot on a team for a ground type from diglett, drilbur, hippo and onyx, phanpy's wide move pool and high stats allows it to do things the aforementioned ground types cant and therefore definitely gives it a niche in the tier and makes is deserving of being mentioned on the viability rankings.

 

[sam-testings]

All right time to have some actual discussion.

Archen to A-

The more I use it and the more I see it on the ladder, the more and more I realize that Archen just isn't that good. It makes a shaky Fletchling check and can only come in like two to three times, and the standard set lacks reliable recovery. Of course you could run roost, but you often find that you can never really use it. You cannot reliably switch into fighting types in fear of having bj being knocked off and getting below 50%, and you can't really switch into grass types as they can do some nice damage onto Archen too. Scarf chou and mag being around due to diglett also hurt Archen quite a bit as you could previously kill them with eq, but now they outspeed and kill archen. Just all in all, its frailty and lack of actual usefulness in game have me saying drop it to A-

 

[Fresher Than You]

I think part of the problem with Archen is that because it can fulfill so many roles on paper people try and make it do everything, and it consequently does nothing when you get it in battle. It doesn't have much role compression (if you run defog you'll probably need it to be bulky and give it roost, which leaves you with not enough coverage while offensive makes you choose one time recovery in BJ to get out of Defeatist or roost, which it rarely gets to use as Sam-testings ^ said). You can't really switch it in on a tonne of stuff either for fear of pushing into defeatist, which in turn makes it much easier for other sweepers to come in as Archen will do a pittance of damage or give a free switch. Totally down for A-.

 

[blarajan]

papa blara chiming in to say you should all probably cool it with using experience as an argument to explain why people should accept what you're saying, and stop being dicks overall. There's no reason x LC player being more involved means y new player is less correct because x LC player said so. Explain why you're right, not due to your experience but with the strength of arguments. Don't attack or flame or bash or insult or call out new users holy shit. Be community leaders and do your part ~together~ to foster the inclusion of new users as opposed to actively deterring those that want to join the discussion by ganging up on them jeez

 

[Vubon]

Snivy -> A+
Despite not being the best wallbreaker or sweeper in the meta i still believe snivy should be pushed up a bit alongside Gastly/Abra because of the immense offensive pressure it gives to the opposition.
It lacks coverage and has to rely on HP's but that still it doesn't stops Snivy from overcoming its common checks like ponyta, larvesta,vullaby,foongus,ferroseed etc with the help of HP Fire/Ground/Ice/Flying.
Snivy's one of the three mons that get Glare which can paralyze Ground types and can heal with Synthesis or Giga Drain.

And Snivy loves the presence of Diglett.

 

[Anthiese]

Phanpy definitely deserves to be on the viability rankings due to its niche in having great bulk and wide move pool which includes knock off and priority in ice shard. Phanpy can tank most of the meta and can set up rocks and use roar or run a coverage move (head smash, gunk shot, seed bomb, play rough, super power) to punish whatever you need to be able to beat. In the current meta however a rock coverage move is probably the best, these moves allow the player to customize phanpy's set to whatever their team needs. Despite competition for a slot on a team for a ground type from diglett, drilbur, hippo and onyx, phanpy's wide move pool and high stats allows it to do things the aforementioned ground types cant and therefore definitely gives it a niche in the tier and makes is deserving of being mentioned on the viability rankings.

Even though Phanpy has these excellent coverage moves (not superpower bc play rough hits darks too + fight and doesnt drop ur atk and def), I still find it to be lacking when it comes to performance. Comparing it to the other ground types (especially those listed) doesn't cement your case in my opinion.

comparisons

Diglett is much faster and supports the team better offensively while having a stronger non-stab priority, even though Diglett is hitting less hard.
Phanpy is bulkier and has a better coverage selection.

Hippopotas supports a whole archetype (sand) as well has having better bulk, power and solid recovery with phazing ability (inlove).
Phanpy has a better coverage selection

Onix is faster, Sturdy Juice for longevity, and cool tools like Taunt to stop other hazard leads it doesnt tie with.
Once again, Phanpy has a better coverage selection. It's technically bulkier since Onix has low HP and SDef while having much higher Def.

Drilbur is faster, can spin and set, and has a usable ability along with offensive pressure.
Phanpy is again, bulkier and has a better coverage selection

One you didnt list was Sandshrew, who has Knock Off, SR and Rapid Spin with somewhat less bulk and more attack power.

Next, Phanpy has 4mss like a mofo without the coverage. I would guess it would be nice to strike like Purrloin trying to Taunt you with Play Rough or hitting a Phish switchin with Seed Bomb but how do you justify using these moves when really you can just click KO and get rid of their item? Then hit them with EQ as they set up / KO you back / Taunt? In most cases the coverage moves hit harder yet it's very situation dependent as well.

Don't get me wrong, Phanpy has some cool tools to utilise like Play Rough to strike common switchins / leads like Purrloin and Mienfoo, however it lacks slots to keep it centric as well as it falls behind other ground types in movesets, abilities and overall stats.

 

[tcr]

I think part of the problem with Archen is that because it can fulfill so many roles on paper people try and make it do everything, and it consequently does nothing when you get it in battle. It doesn't have much role compression (if you run defog you'll probably need it to be bulky and give it roost, which leaves you with not enough coverage while offensive makes you choose one time recovery in BJ to get out of Defeatist or roost, which it rarely gets to use as Sam-testings ^ said). You can't really switch it in on a tonne of stuff either for fear of pushing into defeatist, which in turn makes it much easier for other sweepers to come in as Archen will do a pittance of damage or give a free switch. Totally down for A-.

I completely disagree with Archen drops. Archen is one of those Pokemon that will always always be relevant due to typing and immense base stats. Its Berry Juice set is not the only set out there, nor is it designed to be a 100% complete Fletchling counter. Its important to tailor the mons set to the type of team you are running. BJ Archen works well in deterring Fletchling but only if used in tandem with another Fletchling check, like Pawniard or Magnemite. One can run Eviolite Archen or Itemless Roost Archen in order to deal with Fletchling if its really such a huge issue. If you just try to make it do everything all in one then of course you're going to have a hard time. It most certainly has role compression, being one of few mons that can reliably check both Fighting-types, Fletchling, and Pawniard to some extent in one set. As I stated before its completely customizable, in that it can run a Stealth Rock pivot set, a full on attacking set, Eviolite Roost, Itemless Roost, Offensive Defog, Defensive Defog, Tailwind sets. It sounds to me like you're just treating it as some sort of god pokemon that can do everything in one set, which it can't. I'd say try experimenting a little and being more flexible with both its offensive and defensive options. Its ability to check a significant portion of the metagame, stellar offensive typing, extremely powerful base stats, ability to support its teammates with Stealth Rock / Tailwind / Defog / Switcheroo / Knock Off, as well as its ability to just be one of the best checks to Bird+Diglett (the only one it really fears is WoW Drifloon, and to some extent Knock Off Vullaby if you don't run Roost or Edge) all put it at A+ material in my eyes. In the hands of a good player it is often unpredictable in what it can run, which can really mess with people in tournaments. The only move you know for sure is being run is Acrobatics, and even then ive seen acrobatics-less sets used.

 

[DefinitelyBobDylan]

I don't think Skiddo should be D tier. Its best set, in my opinion, allows it to be a somewhat reliable bulky physical sweeper (bulk up, horn leech, brick break, milk drink). Obviously, its typing prevents it from finding any serious success in the tier, what with the common flying types. But that being said, its more than just a gimmick set poke, and I think C tier is a much better fit for it.

 

[tcr]

I don't think Skiddo should be D tier. Its best set, in my opinion, allows it to be a somewhat reliable bulky physical sweeper (bulk up, horn leech, brick break, milk drink). Obviously, its typing prevents it from finding any serious success in the tier, what with the common flying types. But that being said, its more than just a gimmick set poke, and I think C tier is a much better fit for it.

While skiddo should definitely not be unranked, it fits really well in D tier. It only really has one reliable niche, as an anti-snivy bulkyish webs grass type (that can also check Pawniard). It does not have any sort of versatility, and any other role it could run is straight up outclassed by other Grass-types (with Chespin being a far better Bulk-Up user / Mono-grass user, Foongus being a better pivot, Deerling being a better Scarfer / wallbreaker, Cottonee for support, etc etc). A jump to C-tier is definitely too much for a Pokemon that struggles to fit itself even on the types of teams it it supposed to work well with (as Snivy is often just a much better Grass-type on webs teams due to its sheer power).

 

[Holiday]

move Honedge FROM ITS CURRENT POSITION of B MINUS to B
Great defensive typing that lets it form solid cores with Fighting types to pick off Fairy and Psychic types in order to free up a sweep or help wallbreak better (namely DD Scraggy and Scarf Mienfoo) and it can also sweep with SD. solid enough movepool with Shadow Sneak, Pursuit, Sacred Sword. Think it deserves to move up

 

[infamy]

GIBLE: UNRANKED --> C-

​

So lately, Vubon and I have built some Gible teams. From said buildings of teams, we have realized that Gible is a good Pokemon. It is also very cute. I was very astonished when I looked at this thread only to see that Gible is not even D rank!

When I stumbled upon this oversight, it became clear to me that I must correct it. Gible is a very cute and good Pokemon and it deserves to be used more! Gible fills many important niches. The most important niches are 1) physical wall, 2) voltturn disincentivizer, 3) bulk in tandem with offensive presence, and 4) versatility.

The most significant thing Gible does is passively punish physical attackers like Mienfoo, Pawniard, and Fletchling. Its ability, Rough Skin, lets it get chip damage on physical attackers in a metagame which is mostly physical. Its good typing also helps it to check physical attackers, because even though it does not resist many attacks, it is not weak to most attacks- in the A and S ranks, only Snubbull and Shellder can hit it physically for super effective damage. Gible also has great natural bulk of 22/11/11 uninvested. These let Gible often come in and take little damage before setting up Stealth Rock or dealing lots of damage with a powerful attack like Draco Meteor or Fire Blast.

Gible also disincentivizes voltturn tactics. Its Ground typing and Rough Skin ability punish Volt Switch and U-Turn, respectively. This is very important in a metagame where voltturn is a frequently used and successful strategy. Gible also has the power to be able to take advantage of free turns from Volt Switch and other attacks.

Gible has a great combination of bulk and offensive presence. It hits very hard and can also take many hits before fainting. Not only does it have a very high base Attack and a reasonable base Special Attack, but it has very strong moves on both sides of the spectrum. These include Earthquake, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Outrage, and Iron Tail.

Gible has an extensive movepool and great all-around stats. This lets it run many sets, a special attacking gluemon, a physical attacking wall, a mixed wallbreaker, and many more. This not only lets it remain unpredictable, but also lets Gible fit onto many different teams of various archetypes.

Use Gible. It's cute and good.

​

 

[Vubon]

Gible instead of Gollett in D, atleast

 

[rhydonphilip]

Gible instead of Gollett in D, atleast

There are still allot of pokemon that should go from D to unranked, I am looking at Piplup, Oddish, Helioptile, Shroomish and Litleo.
All the above never or shouldn't ever be seriously oriented for teams that a higher ranked poke can't do very simalairly or almost compleatly outclassing it.
In case of Voltorb, it's just fast + Rain dance + Taunt? I mean that's still usefull for rain? The other pokemon were argued against so.

For Gible I wouldn't say it's qualities are as abuse able in that reguard. The best chip damage it can be doing is if it run's a Phazer set with SR, Roar against a U-turn user to chip as mutch damage as possible, but honestly I think that is the worst it has to offer as it lacks reliable recovery. It's physical mobvepool allone makes it a fair poke honestly.
The special uses like Fire Blast/Draco have notable KO's but unlike dratini you did only be breaking the more average bulky pokemon like Mienfoo. That's what you're ment to do so I can't say that's not good enough. D ranking would be more suitable imo if we did clean up the D ranking.

 

[Fiend]

Gible is not actually that amazing. It either gets 3hkoed at best by a physical attacker (set in the calc: 0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 132 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Gible: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ; set I would run: 0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 132 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Gible: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO) You can of course improve this making a 2HKO from HJK 9% without rocks (max hp/14 def does this) but then Gible has 15 attack. And while this is not bad in any regard, it lacks recovery outside of rest making the average attack stat very, lower speed, and actually kinda nice bulk hard to use in a meaningful manner. This is further irked by the Dragon/Ground typing, which leaves it neutral to Water/Fighting/Dark/Steel/Flying/Normal. Gible is useful as a voltturn stop, as it is rather bothersome to Larvesta and Chinchou and even Archen, but Chinchou is more commonly running Ice Beam, Larvesta does a little less than a 1/3 to Gible with U-turn, and can burn Gible making it almost useless it is the even weaker Special attacker set. Larvesta also has recovery for dealing with Rough Skin damage, which only mildly pressures Larvesta. Gible is also a bother to Life Orb Magby (rare) and Ponyta (uncommon), but Magby 3HKOes Gible while Ponyta can outlast non resttalk sets. Even more detrimental to Gible's viability is how unreliable berry juice is due to half of what it would like to maybe switch into carrying knock off, or even more terrible still getting 3HKOed by what doesn't use Knock Off. Gible isn't really up to par with all of C-, simply bc there isn't anything that Gible brings to the table that actually matters in the current meta. Diglett helps reduce the rampancy of fire types and some rock types (rhydon mostly) and a lot of Poison types, making Gible's important resists missing. Gible has a very unimportant role; it does not wall anything common well enough; it does not have the offensive ability to make use of decent bulk and produce damaging results; its ability does not find itself notable due to chip damage only being 1-2 damage (this helps mildly against fletch breaking through Pawn, or trapping mienfoo, or breaking sturdies but imo this is really unnotable and niche af.) Gible should probably be ranked however, despite being largely eh. D would be a good place for it--Ekans and Binacle and Smoochum are roughly as viable.

 

[infamy]

Gible is not actually that amazing. It either gets 3hkoed at best by a physical attacker (set in the calc: 0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 132 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Gible: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ; set I would run: 0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 132 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Gible: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO) You can of course improve this making a 2HKO from HJK 9% without rocks (max hp/14 def does this) but then Gible has 15 attack. And while this is not bad in any regard, it lacks recovery outside of rest making the average attack stat very, lower speed, and actually kinda nice bulk hard to use in a meaningful manner. This is further irked by the Dragon/Ground typing, which leaves it neutral to Water/Fighting/Dark/Steel/Flying/Normal. Gible is useful as a voltturn stop, as it is rather bothersome to Larvesta and Chinchou and even Archen, but Chinchou is more commonly running Ice Beam, Larvesta does a little less than a 1/3 to Gible with U-turn, and can burn Gible making it almost useless it is the even weaker Special attacker set. Larvesta also has recovery for dealing with Rough Skin damage, which only mildly pressures Larvesta. Gible is also a bother to Life Orb Magby (rare) and Ponyta (uncommon), but Magby 3HKOes Gible while Ponyta can outlast non resttalk sets. Even more detrimental to Gible's viability is how unreliable berry juice is due to half of what it would like to maybe switch into carrying knock off, or even more terrible still getting 3HKOed by what doesn't use Knock Off. Gible isn't really up to par with all of C-, simply bc there isn't anything that Gible brings to the table that actually matters in the current meta. Diglett helps reduce the rampancy of fire types and some rock types (rhydon mostly) and a lot of Poison types, making Gible's important resists missing. Gible has a very unimportant role; it does not wall anything common well enough; it does not have the offensive ability to make use of decent bulk and produce damaging results; its ability does not find itself notable due to chip damage only being 1-2 damage (this helps mildly against fletch breaking through Pawn, or trapping mienfoo, or breaking sturdies but imo this is really unnotable and niche af.) Gible should probably be ranked however, despite being largely eh. D would be a good place for it--Ekans and Binacle and Smoochum are roughly as viable.

Plenty of mons in D are significantly worse than Gible. I don't think it can be argued that mons like Oddish, Piplup, and Litleo are better than or on the same level as Gible. C- is about on its level, I'd say. I went with C as a bit of a stretch, and I fully expect it to get C- or D.

 

[Merritt]

Plenty of mons in D are significantly worse than Gible. I don't think it can be argued that mons like Oddish, Piplup, and Litleo are better than or on the same level as Gible. C- is about on its level, I'd say. I went with C as a bit of a stretch, and I fully expect it to get C- or D.

Those are the bottom of the barrel D ranks, and have already been nominated to be unranked with no opposition. They're not exactly what you want to be comparing Gible to. I'm more in favor of D rank than C- personally, since it really does strike me as about the same viability as Pineco or Bronzor.

 

[Berks]

Actually just for the record I oppose a Litleo drop as it is every bit as powerful as Houndour with increased bulk and a move that beats out subs but an unfortunate lack of rock-wrecking moves and prio; but hey, whatever fam, Sucker Punch is really good, I get that

Gible deserves at least D, it's powerful and decently bulky and has STAB Dragon / Ground which is fuckin amazing but it suffers from being slow in a meta where you need to be reeeeeeeal bulky or reeeeeeal strong to be slow effectively. C- is a stretch but I wouldn't oppose it if it happened.

 

[Anthiese]

There are still allot of pokemon that should go from D to unranked, I am looking at Piplup, Oddish, Helioptile, Shroomish and Litleo.
All the above never or shouldn't ever be seriously oriented for teams that a higher ranked poke can't do very simalairly or almost compleatly outclassing it.
In case of Voltorb, it's just fast + Rain dance + Taunt? I mean that's still usefull for rain? The other pokemon were argued against so.

For Gible I wouldn't say it's qualities are as abuse able in that reguard. The best chip damage it can be doing is if it run's a Phazer set with SR, Roar against a U-turn user to chip as mutch damage as possible, but honestly I think that is the worst it has to offer as it lacks reliable recovery. It's physical mobvepool allone makes it a fair poke honestly.
The special uses like Fire Blast/Draco have notable KO's but unlike dratini you did only be breaking the more average bulky pokemon like Mienfoo. That's what you're ment to do so I can't say that's not good enough. D ranking would be more suitable imo if we did clean up the D ranking.

Helioptile has two things over a lot of electric mons, access to U-turn and Glare. U-Turn offers it a way to bypass Chinchou and Ground types who come in on Volt Switch while Glare can paralyze those ground types as well as everything else (except elec mons and limber mons) 17 Speed is a mixed bag since while it outspeed a lot of defensive mons, it ties with more troubling things like meinfoo. Being immune to Water nets it a switchin on a lot of common Water types and since it's outspeeds most of them, it can retaliate with Thunder(bolt)/Glare (if switchin). It may have a lot of weaknesses like to Fighting which is it's most massive hindrance, the inability to handle bulky threats and like 0 bulk but the things Helio offers is worth D Rank.

Voltorb does see use on Rain teams with it's access to Rain Dance, it's prolly one of the best Rain setters in the meta since it's natural Speed ensures it will always set up Rain unless it's hit with a prio Taunt. Even then, it also has Taunt itself as well as Magic Coat to reflect Status moves back. Explosion is a nice meaty attack that sacs him but gives you an opening. Also it hella benefits from Thunder being 100% accurate but most of the time you wanna go with say, Volt Switch so you can get him out if anything.

Litleo again having an excellent damage output and an okay movepool with Hyper Voice, a STAB that bypasses Subs. It is comparable to Houndour since they have some comparable stats (SpA, Spe) and they do somewhat similiar things. But unlike Houndour, Litleo enjoys extra bulk. Literally the only thing that Dour has that Litleo doesnt is Sucker Punch and maybe Destiny Bond. Ability wise yeah Dour has Flash Fire which is hella useful.

The others however i cant really defend them since they are incredibly mediocre. Shroomish does have access to Spore and the Toxic Orb set is cute while it blocks status, provides "reliable" recovery and facade is free boosted damage but Shroomish needs to not get hit very hard so it can tank and it just doesnt have the stats to tank and deal respectable damage at the same time. Piplup has Defog and Stealth Rock and isnt a bird which is nice if you dont wanna have SR strip your bird of it's HP but Piplup cant heal itself and it's bulk is somewhat mediocre. Scald helps against physical attackers if they get burned (not Timburr) Finally Oddish is a mixed bag, while not having the varied movepool and speed Bellsprout and Bulbasaur have, Oddish hits a wee bit harder and has more bulk than them. Unfortunately it means fuck all if you dont have good coverage. Moonblast is the only coverage you have other than the obvious HP. Those can definitely drop

 

[tcr]

Litleo again having an excellent damage output and an okay movepool with Hyper Voice, a STAB that bypasses Subs. It is comparable to Houndour since they have some comparable stats (SpA, Spe) and they do somewhat similiar things. But unlike Houndour, Litleo enjoys extra bulk. Literally the only thing that Dour has that Litleo doesnt is Sucker Punch and maybe Destiny Bond. Ability wise yeah Dour has Flash Fire which is hella useful.

The thing is Litleo is literally a worse Houndour. The only types it resists are Ice / Fire / Bug / Grass / Ghost / Fairy / Steel, and of those Ice typically is only ever run as coverage, and the mons that would run Ice Beam or Icicle Spear run Surf, Hydro Pump, Razor Shell, Rock Blast anyway, meaning that its Ice resist is fairly negligible. Bug is only ever used for U-turn, I can't think of a single move from B and up that actually uses a Bug-type move. Maybe Signal Beam on like Mantyke? This means that its Bug resist is useless as well, since the mon will probably be using U-turn anyway. Grass is a decent enough resist, however most Grass mons that Litleo might want to wall will just use neutral moves anyway. Cottonee is more than likely going to Knock Off or Memento or whatever, Chespin will just set up Spikes or Brick Break the shit out of it, Snivy can just HP Rock or Leaf Storm again for the 2hko (although this is a speed tie), and Foongus would just Spore it or Sludge Bomb it anyway. Gastly easily Sludges on it, while Drifloon just sets up a Calm Mind and sweeps, or banks on Fire Blast misses. Fairy types get kinda fucked over more for Litleo than Houndour tho. Basically, Litleo has better matchups than Houndour against Larvesta, Cottonee, Other Fairy-types, and yeah that's it. Anythijng else either already messes with Dour and Litleo at the same time or Dour just does it better.

Yeah it has Hyper Voice, but is that REALLY useful? Gastly / Drifloon are two of the most common Sub users, and both are immune to Hyper Voice. Diglett already outspeeds and straight up OHKOes Litleo, so you might have to run some sort of Scarf set. Abra does the same, only slightly less. Litleo actually has a chance to survive Psychic pre stealth rock. However if you take away the Life Orb, Hyper Voice turns from a possible OHKO to a 6.3% chance, and one that might not even kill 75% hp abra. Houndour is just way better in almost every situation to where litleo has no niche whatsoever. It would rarely run Eviolite, so the extra bulk really isn't that much, especially uninvested. Litleo lost any form of viable niche the minute Misdreavus left the tier, as Litleo could actually stand against he common Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball / Nasty Plot / Will-o-Wisp set

 

[lightninging]

Recently there's been a push to move Dwebble down the viability rankings. However, Dwebble is a solid mon in this meta who can serve 2 very different roles; suicide lead or shell smasher. SturdyJuice ensures it can get up SR and some spikes... but it's the shellsmash set which I prefer. Dwebble OHKOs a significant portion of the meta with a set of Smash/Rock Blast/X-scissor/EQ.
Wall o OHKOs:
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 22-28 (104.7 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 36-45 (189.4 - 236.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO bye bye sashbra
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 36 HP / 84 Def Drifloon: 54-72 (207.6 - 276.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 24-36 (96 - 144%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Honedge: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 33-39 (183.3 - 216.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Plus, what it doesnt kill outright it 2HKOs
Wall o 2HKOs
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 132 HP / 132 Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 18-21 (72 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OR +2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO depends on chip/hazards damage if you wanna risk the potential rock blast miss/ two hit rock blast. anyway it 2hkos comfortably either way
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 11-14 (45.8 - 58.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 12-15 (54.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only relevant mon smash dwebble doesn't beat is intimidate granbull. Plus, sturdyjuice gives it ample opportunity to set up. Or... you can lead it,with people bringing in a check/spinner/magic bouncer...which dwebble will proceed to KO. Obvi it needs no support if it's being lead. Late game it will clean anything, although it needs hazard removal for sturdyjuice to work. Anyway, demotion for dwebble is clearly unnecessary, as it is as excellent offensive threat who also has a functional suicide lead set.

 

[Merritt]

Recently there's been a push to move Dwebble down the viability rankings. However, Dwebble is a solid mon in this meta who can serve 2 very different roles; suicide lead or shell smasher. SturdyJuice ensures it can get up SR and some spikes... but it's the shellsmash set which I prefer. Dwebble OHKOs a significant portion of the meta with a set of Smash/Rock Blast/X-scissor/EQ.
Wall o OHKOs:
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 22-28 (104.7 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 36-45 (189.4 - 236.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO bye bye sashbra
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 36 HP / 84 Def Drifloon: 54-72 (207.6 - 276.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 24-36 (96 - 144%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Honedge: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 33-39 (183.3 - 216.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Plus, what it doesnt kill outright it 2HKOs
Wall o 2HKOs
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 132 HP / 132 Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 18-21 (72 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OR +2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO depends on chip/hazards damage if you wanna risk the potential rock blast miss/ two hit rock blast. anyway it 2hkos comfortably either way
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 11-14 (45.8 - 58.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236+ Atk Dwebble X-Scissor vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 12-15 (54.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only relevant mon smash dwebble doesn't beat is intimidate granbull. Plus, sturdyjuice gives it ample opportunity to set up. Or... you can lead it,with people bringing in a check/spinner/magic bouncer...which dwebble will proceed to KO. Obvi it needs no support if it's being lead. Late game it will clean anything, although it needs hazard removal for sturdyjuice to work. Anyway, demotion for dwebble is clearly unnecessary, as it is as excellent offensive threat who also has a functional suicide lead set.

The issue is that while it has fairly nice offensive power after a smash, almost every team is capable of limiting it to one or maybe two kills unless it sets up very late game, in which case there's many other options. The support it requires is equal or greater to that of pretty much every other smasher, and stuff like Omanyte or even Tirtouga just end up being more effective as a sweeper after a shell smash. It's not that it's a useless Pokemon, it's just not as effective as the stuff in B+ and so should move down.

 

[rhydonphilip]

Helioptile has two things over a lot of electric mons, access to U-turn and Glare. U-Turn offers it a way to bypass Chinchou and Ground types who come in on Volt Switch while Glare can paralyze those ground types as well as everything else (except elec mons and limber mons) 17 Speed is a mixed bag since while it outspeed a lot of defensive mons, it ties with more troubling things like meinfoo. Being immune to Water nets it a switchin on a lot of common Water types and since it's outspeeds most of them, it can retaliate with Thunder(bolt)/Glare (if switchin). It may have a lot of weaknesses like to Fighting which is it's most massive hindrance, the inability to handle bulky threats and like 0 bulk but the things Helio offers is worth D Rank.

Voltorb does see use on Rain teams with it's access to Rain Dance, it's prolly one of the best Rain setters in the meta since it's natural Speed ensures it will always set up Rain unless it's hit with a prio Taunt. Even then, it also has Taunt itself as well as Magic Coat to reflect Status moves back. Explosion is a nice meaty attack that sacs him but gives you an opening. Also it hella benefits from Thunder being 100% accurate but most of the time you wanna go with say, Volt Switch so you can get him out if anything.

Rain by itself is usefull, I noted it precifically because I wasn't sure if it was notable enough for that as Rain once it's put it can put in good work not mutch can compair to.
Helioptile, I personally love the poke in LCUU, however in LC just doesn't seem to compeat, still. I take the reasoning you are giving here.
On Litleo however: Taunt, Hyper Voice and Nobal Roar are the only moves it has over Houndour exept if I missed one?
Nobal roar is uterly bad, Taunt while it has use, isn't too usefull for specifically this poke . The only poke that comes up in my mind you want to use taunt for is in unideal situations as you did either lose against that poke example Rock/Ground type Stealth Rock setters/Shell Smashers/Set up in general/Thunder wave user. Or win against those anyway like Pawn/Foongus.
Hyper Voice is literally the only single move it has over houndour that is noteable, but comes at even greater cost as you gain a basically inferior type compaired to Houndour. Houndour has about anything more to the point this one suffers from what moves it wants to run as so many did be usefull for dealing with more and more threaths. Stat whise Litleo also isn't superior as the most helpfull coverage HP Grass limits it's 17 special attack to 16 missing out on important 2HKO's and aswell as some reliable 1HKO's. I can also be a bit of a screw here and suggest it's just so mutch less effective to run with Diglett/Drif, but that's for any Fire type so idk what I did be pointing out with that.