Project Victim of the Week: ZU Edition

[missangelic]

In Your Dreams

Musharna @ Colbur Berry
Bold Nature
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Moonlight​

Physically defensive setup Musharna with a Colbur Berry is a cute DEFENSIVE COUNTER against No Retreat Falinks. Musharna's Psychic is an OHKO if Falinks does not set up with No Retreat, and it's still a 2HKO if Falinks gets to +1 on the switch with No Retreat. Falinks' Throat Chop on Colbur into an Itemless Throat Chop does not kill. If Falinks goes for No Retreat on the switch, Musharna clicks Psychic once and then gets to use Moonlight as Falinks KOs itself with Life Orb recoil. As a side note, Musharna is an even more secure counter if Falinks is running Shed Shell or Lum Berry over Life Orb and/or Jolly over Adamant, which are very likely on No Retreat sets.

Lots of Calcs

0 SpA Musharna Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Falinks: 312-368 (115.1 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Falinks Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 94-110 (21.6 - 25.2%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Falinks Throat Chop vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 166-198 (38.1 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Falinks Throat Chop vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Musharna: 125-148 (28.7 - 34%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Falinks Throat Chop vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 250-296 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Musharna Psychic vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Falinks: 206-246 (76 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[PlusC]

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Bold Nature
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
- Will o Wisp
- Night Shade / Seismic Toss
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

1 252 Atk Life Orb Falinks Throat Chop vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 114-135 (40.2 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Switch in on any move, Will O Wisp then Rest and Sleep Talk away. Once the Burn is set up its all safe but if there are a lot of hazards in play and he's already set up then you can get unlucky, but even in the worst scenario you survive to Burn him which makes him very manageable for the rest of your team, if not set up bait for some mons. For these reasons he is a Defensive Counter.

Will O wisp is probably the best move for Falinks, in case of horrendous crit luck, but Toxic is better for some threats and Infestation can be fun against some other mons. Lol forgot Life Orb in my calcs this things busted.

Doesn't matter for Falinks but Seismic Toss is walled by Ghosts, whilst Night Shade is walled by Normals, pick your poison.

Neat mon, look out for Knock Off and Trick and he's very reliable. Likes Silvally as a partner for that reason.

 

[risin_glory]

​

Also risin_glory I'd consider reevaluating your Gourg nomination as a counter! Considering it can always switch in, burn, and recover on Falinks, that's a sure fire way of dealing with it and preventing it from sweeping. It's even better than Mareanie, as it can afford to stay in on the burned Falinks and recover. Also like Mareanie, the trapped and burned Falinks may also become setup fodder for some sweepers, which is a huge plus.

what do you mean bro?
I have nominated gourg-l as a check and not a counter...I know it cant counter falinks....because u know..? 32.7 of colbur throat chop+65 without coulbur throat chop on turn of burn+32.7 on turn after burn is death of gourg...though these are all high rolls so if toto approves not considering high rolls for 3 turns, I will nominate it as counter

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

what do you mean bro?
I have nominated gourg-l as a check and not a counter...I know it cant counter falinks....

"Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

Under this definition, the Gourgiest-Large set is likely a counter and not a check. That's what I was implying in my first post replying to you. Given that the worst case scenario would be Falinks getting to +1 on Gourgiest-Large while it switches in, all Gourgiest has to do is Wisp and Synthesis to put make Falinks useless. That means Gourg will always safely switch into Fallinks while healthy. Stuff like critical hits and Wisp missing isn't that relevant as we can chop that up to hax, and it still functions as a counter. Even when unhealthy, or healthy but Gourg already ate it's Colbur Berry, it still likely counters Falinks! In fact, Gourgiest-L might be the best counter in this thread, so all I was trying to say is that calling it a check is underselling its defensive capabilities in this match up. Hope this clears things up!

 

[risin_glory]

Under this definition, the Gourgiest-Large set is likely a counter and not a check. That's what I was implying in my first post replying to you. Given that the worst case scenario would be Falinks getting to +1 on Gourgiest-Large while it switches in

oh I see....toto told me to consider falinks to already be on +1 before gourg makes a switchin, so that's why...k then I will make the change. thanks ho3n!

 

[JonAmon 25]

Shiinotic
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Strength Sap
- Moonblast
- Giga Drain​

Shiinotic is a check since it’s able to switch in to non-Poison Jab Falinks setting up and spore it immediately after. Moonblast is able to 2HKO after the spore.

Calcs

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Falinks Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shiinotic: 133-156 (41 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Falinks Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shiinotic: 118-140 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Shiinotic Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Falinks: 188-224 (69.3 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[risin_glory]

Shiinotic
​

though it is uncommon, toto has mentioned poison jab as a potential move. shiinotic loses to it

 

[Toto]

Quick update

With regards to this definition from Smogon. "Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." It has been brought to my attention that I have been interpreting this definition wrong. I thought that a worse case scenario would mean the victim would already have set up before the counter had switched in or that a berry would already be consumed, this is not the case as does not resemble a real battle scenario so my apologies. When I release the voting table tomorrow I will change the necessary checks to counters.

As a side note how do you guys feel about slashes (/) for coverage moves such as poison jab on Falinks this week. Do you think adding poison jab was too much or do you think that I should have added moves like Megahorn and Rock Slide too. I'm kinda torn on whether they should be included or not. For example Shiinotic is a counter to falinks 9/10 times but the rare poison jab coverage makes shiinotic neither a counter or check.

Also from now on could you not post one liners in this forum for every mistake that is made and instead just drops me a message. I'm Temporal Totodile on Pokémon Showdown and Temporal Totodile#0987 on discord.

 

[Toto]

checks​

sexywooper​	​	Mr.Mime​
Albinson​	​	Beheeyem​
Ho3nConfirm3d​	​	Mareanie​

counters​

risin_glory​	​	Gourgeist-Large​
AstilCodex​	​	Vespiquen​
missangelic​	​	Musharna​
PlusC​	​	Dusclops​

Vote for one check and counter

My votes:
Mr.mime and Gourgeist-Large

Voting ends Sunday, November 15th​

 

[risin_glory]

Check: Mareanie
Counter: Musharna

 

[Tuthur]

Mr. Mime and Gourgeist-Large

 

[Cheezy]

im back

mr mime because wooper is sexy and musharna because missangelics posts are good

 

[Albi]

Mr Mime and Gourgeist-Large

 

[PlusC]

Assuming I can't vote for myself, Mime and Vespy

 

[JonAmon 25]

Mare and Dusclops (cuz that’s what I was gonna submit but got sniped :(

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Beh and mush

 

[5gen]

Beheeyem and vespiquen

 

[OranBerryBlissey10]

Mareanie and Vespiquen

 

[AstilCodex]

Mr. Mime and Gourgeist-Large

 

[wooper]

beheeyem and vespiquen

 

[Toto]

Winners of the week

check​

sexywooper​

​

Mr.Mime​

counters​

risin_glory​	​	Gourgeist-Large​
AstilCodex​		Vespiquen​

Votes

Checks
Mr.Mime - 6
Beheeyem - 3
Mareanie - 3

Counter
Gourgeist-Large - 4
Vespiquen - 4
musharna -3
Dusclops - 1

Leaderboard

Cheezy - 3
missangelic - 3
risin_glory - 3
JonAmon 25 - 2
T0T0DI!E - 2
AstilCodex -1
Oathkeepre - 1
Ryan207 - 1
OranBerryBlissey10 - 1
k.r.o.b. - 1
Marjane - 1
sexywooper -1
uhuhuhu7 - 1

Week 10 - Drednaw under rain

Drednaw @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Head Smash
- Liquidation
- Stone Edge

Submissions start now, voting starts Friday November 20th.
Remember to factor in 2x speed and rain atk boost to water moves when calcing
Thank you for the big turnout last week lets do it again this week​

 

[risin_glory]

Palpitoad @ Eviolite
Bold Nature
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Toxic
- Earth Power

palpitoad is probably the best counter to drednaw as its ability makes it water immune,while its typing resists drednaws rock stabs. Not to menton it has insane defensive utility.

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Palpitoad: 109-130 (30.7 - 36.7%) -- 71.6% chance to 3HKO (16.9 - 20.2% recoil damage)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Palpitoad: 220-260 (62.1 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (34.2 - 40.4% recoil damage)

4 SpA Palpitoad Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Drednaw: 188-224 (58.5 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Therefore, if from the turn of switchin itself drednaw uses head smash, or uses sd on swich in and headsmash next, the damage palpitoad gets is the same, that is at max 73.4%. Whereas in both the cases drednaw gets a recoil of 40.4+10=50.4%(for sd+headsmash) and 40.4+20=64.4%(for double headsmash) and on then the minimum damage of 58.5% from earth power very easily kills it.

 

[Albi]

Leafeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic / Knock Off​

The new drops gave us Leafeon as a nice answer to Drednaw.
It can be useful in general vs rain with wish/protect stalling a couple turns. Also, if Drednaw lacks Head Smash it's never 2HKO'd and becomes a counter. However, stricly speaking, it's a check, and a nice physical wall in general with 130 base defense.
Edit: you can also invest 88 Speed EVs instead of Def to outspeed Drednaw once rain is over, without sacrificing too much bulk, as shown in the calcs

Calcs

max defense
252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Leafeon: 192-227 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Leafeon: 129-152 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

with speed investment
252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Leafeon: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Leafeon: 136-161 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drednaw: 460-544 (143.3 - 169.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[wooper]

reserving bulky bellossom

Bellossom @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Giga Drain
- Strength Sap
- Sludge Bomb
​

i chose bulky bellossom as a check. max hp with its defensive investment lets it always live an unboosted head smash. 120 speed lets bellossom at +1 outspeed drednaw outside of rain. you will only ever really need quiver and giga drain, so you can use any moves in its last two slots, though i do think that strength sap is a great option on a bulky mon


252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Bellossom: 265-313 (74.8 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Eris]

Gloom @ Eviolite
Ability: Stench
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Strength Sap
- Sleep Powder

Gloom is a check, now I must say that the counter list to Drednaw on paper is relatively tiny which makes this project much harder than I would have liked it to be!! I think there is a ton of possible counterplays whether in team options or throughout games that can easily enable you to threaten out Drednaw or even take it down, rain isn't on 100% of the time and the recent drops like Pawniard have great match ups against most rain setters. So if anyone is struggling finding a check or counter for your teams, don't take these noms as the only possible options as the list is much bigger than this project enables it to be imo.

calcs

0 SpA Shiinotic Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Drednaw: 408-480 (127.1 - 149.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gloom OHKO's and recovers about half its health

252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gloom: 192-227 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gloom: 130-153 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Drednaw Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gloom in Rain: 82-97 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO