I mean yeah, the only people who would not be aware would be the people just getting into it. It's an open secret at this point. That's why I said that or they wanted to follow the rules for whatever reason. Doesn't really change what I said.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
A YouTuber with a lot of clout and/or money has thousands of potential connections, and could conceivably receive perfect legitimate Pokemon with little delay. This behavior is entirely allowed by the rules, and genning provides minimal advantages over that.
Even if people who use genning tools have an advantage on average over people who don't gen, it isn't really a problem because the tool is reasonably available to any player for free. Being at a disadvantage because you voluntarily chose not to use a freely available tool is far fairer than being at a disadvantage because you don't have the money/connections to get trades from other people.
Honestly I think the "Current Gen Mark" and eventually the "per-game basis" Movepools were Gamefreak trying sloppily to cut off the need for prior games to have access to competitive resources (no need to have the no-longer-produced Gen 7 games for Knock Off, also must buy SwSh DLC if you want Incineroar without Trading), which they proceeded to shoot themselves in the foot over anyway with the late Home additions (seriously why not just release Home but exclude it from this year?)
Also here's a hot take: The Mythical bans are completely arbitrary at this point. What I refer to here is the fact that Mythicals made available through non-timed In-game means such as ORAS Deoxys remain banned from competitive VGC even in Restricted formats, despite the unlikely chance they become THAT centralizing and the access that could have been argued no longer applying. I bring this up especially because a Deoxys that requires a past-purchase to transfer up and use is banned, but an Urshifu that requires a past-purchase to transfer up and use is legal (and pretty relevant in fact), presumably only because TPC is still actively selling that one.
Also here's a hot take: The Mythical bans are completely arbitrary at this point. What I refer to here is the fact that Mythicals made available through non-timed In-game means such as ORAS Deoxys remain banned from competitive VGC even in Restricted formats, despite the unlikely chance they become THAT centralizing and the access that could have been argued no longer applying. I bring this up especially because a Deoxys that requires a past-purchase to transfer up and use is banned, but an Urshifu that requires a past-purchase to transfer up and use is legal (and pretty relevant in fact), presumably only because TPC is still actively selling that one.
That's hardly a hot take. Nobody is trying to pretend that Mythicals are inherently more powerful than anything else, let alone deserving of a ban. Deoxys is a good example of a non-busted Mythical. That said, there exist some really strong Mythicals, Magearna especially, but also Arceus and Marshadow.
But then again, Game Freak and balance... not exactly a great romance, you know.
I'm not sure why you're considering the Mythical bans "arbitrary".
They're in fact the simples of the bans: You can't use them. No exception. You just can't.
They were banned due to the limited-time-only nature, and GameFreaks doesn't change designation, no matter how good or bad they are nor if they are actually omni available nowadays. There's nothing to do with their power at all (in fact, most of the mythicals are pretty awful and would have 0 usage in VGC, and Zacian/Calyrex and heck even Urshifu when it comes to VGC are easily more busted than literally every released mythical to this date anyway)
They're in fact the simples of the bans: You can't use them. No exception. You just can't.
They were banned due to the limited-time-only nature, and GameFreaks doesn't change designation, no matter how good or bad they are nor if they are actually omni available nowadays. There's nothing to do with their power at all (in fact, most of the mythicals are pretty awful and would have 0 usage in VGC, and Zacian/Calyrex and heck even Urshifu when it comes to VGC are easily more busted than literally every released mythical to this date anyway)
It only levels the playing field if it's legal. By virtue of the fact it is explicitly against the rules, any player wishing to abide by the rules (and in some cases, their local laws) and who isn't well-connected is at a disadvantage during metas in which obtaining certain mons is arduous.
"Being at a disadvantage because you voluntarily chose not to use a freely available tool"??
Is this the "Wow so it's illegal to make plans with friends now" phrasing of the competitive Pokemon scene?
Maybe if this line were phrased as "You were at a disadvantage because you voluntarily chose not to break the rules," it would be more obvious how silly it sounds. The fault should not be placed on the player who plays by the rules, no matter how aggravating the community at large views the rules to be. Moreover, the creator of that free tool specifically condemns its use in this context and routinely calls out people who use it on their teams in official tournaments.
The degree of relative fairness against well-connected players is also debatable. It's yet another hypothetical contrived to try and justify breaking the rules. I could just as well hypothesize that the existing online communities for sharing breedjects and helping build teams would just grow bigger and stronger if genning weren't possible, minimizing the hypothetical advantages of being well connected.
Again, I think most of the reasons that people gen mons are fantastic arguments for why GameFreak should stop being stubborn and just implement actual genning in-game, and I don't blame players for wanting to skip the grind and choosing to take the risk, but my sympathy ends when they get caught and cry about it and try to use all of these arguments to justify breaking the rules. Like, I don't consider Shohei less of a champion because he edited his Amoongus' attack IV, but I also wouldn't have felt bad for him if TPC did raid IV correlation checks and banned his Amoongus for the rest of the tournament (which he then may not have won given how valuable that Amoongus was in finals).
To players considering getting into the scene, though, I imagine this was a big barrier for a time because all the pro players vehemently denied any impropriety. Anyone not in the know may have been turned away by the grind before they could get into the inner circle where they find out genning is common. I don't think genning was truly an open secret to the general public until Kaphotics starting publicly putting people on blast by analyzing their rental teams.
Castersvarog
formerly Maronmario
God, i've been looking at prices for Gen 4/5 games and it's insane how even blatantly fake copies are selling for hundreds of dollars, let alone real copies, All just to play the older games on original hardware. I wish they'd just release the old GB[A] and DS games onto the eshop to just buy already without breaking ones credit score
Why is it inherently impossible for behavior which breaks a rule to make the game more fair?
Why can't the usefulness (and ethics) of enforcing a punishment be called into question, (especially seeing as the majority of competitors seem to not agree with having the rule)? There needs to be a justification as to why having a rule and punishing someone for breaking it is a good thing. There are numerous positive effects of breaking the rule en masse, with no negative effects on competitive play, so I think punishing people for it is bad (even if they have a legal right to do so).
Because its not a legitmitate part of the game - assuming someone had somehow not heard of genning, they are required to do things to compete that others aren’t.
My justification - it is literally cheating. Just because people are making Pokemon that are inherently identical to ones that can be found ingame doesn’t make it any less of a cheat. Its using an external tool to change the difficulty of the game to suit the player and gain an advantage (in this case - the actual time and effort spent on the game).
In the final analysis imo - you’re literally changing the rules of the game to make it easier for yourself than others using an external tool that’s not part of the game. I have no problem with anyone doing this for private means - to make a game more fun/interesting for themselves to experience (infact I have modded multiple single player games myself). They’re literally trying to put themselves at an advantage and others at a disadvantage by using this external tool which has been specifically banned, all in essence to win a tournament for prize money, which is just disgusting and unethical to me. Do it sure, that’s your choice, nobody can actually stop you. If you get caught, cop it on the chin move on and stop whinging.
I have to disagree about the accessibility of PKHex as a free tool in practice, because having a modded Switch (from launch and unpatched) to make use of the tool is a much less accessible option for the average player, which is the reason that there are so many website-named pokemon being advertised for the purpose of buying genned mons. If genning is so accessible then none of these people would have any business, but you can look on eBay now and find several mons sellers with hundreds of thousands of items sold. Actually taking advantage of hacking still requires money or connections if you don't personally own a modded Switch.
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I'm gonna use this statement as a springboard and sayWith the current Types we have, I personally would like to see these 3 Types getting Eeveelutions and than call it: Normal, Dragon, & Ghost.
The reason is completely "fanon" (not sure if I'm using the right word) on my part: I imagine these 3 being a trio representing 3 different "end routes" for an Eevee uninfluenced by outside elemental or mystical forces:
That said, I have also made an Eeveelution for every Type so I'm one to talk.
- Normal: The closest Eevee would have to a natural evolution. No manipulation of its DNA with stones, time of day, or knowing a certain Move; it's just a fully mature form of Eevee. No different than 90% of all other Pokemon who's evolution line is essentially their life cycle from youth to adult.
- Dragon: This represents an Eevee who has reached the apex; becoming best of the best. Ascending from being normal to being extraordinary & fantastical. Dragon-type has been used to represent that idea before so I'm using it here; besides, gotta complete having all Types which were categorized as Special between Gen I-IV having an Eeveelution.
- Ghost: Though no matter how normal or great you are, in the end we all share the same fate: death. For some it comes after a long life, for some it comes tragically soon; death does not judge, it only is. In my head the Ghost-type Eevee isn't a malicious spirit nor a psychopomp, but rather just a grim reminder of the finality of things.
I don't want any new eeveelutions
we should use Meowth regional forms to fill the rest of the typings
vote dragon type Meowth 2025
Disclaimer: Wasn't sure if this fit here or Little things since I neither know how common this is nor how significant most consider it.
I think despite the better scale of the models on screen vs Sprites and some improvements to the team writing, ORAS has a decidedly inferior atmosphere to the Legendary encounter in the Cave of Origin compared to RS. I would even go as far as to place those above how the Emerald resolution is handled, though that one is down to preference moreso than ORAS I feel doing "the same but weaker".
Riding on the Pokemon to the battle site before they Primal Revert is a little silly to look at, and I also think it kind of breaks the pacing/tension. RS it's a simple descent through the cave, rumbling each floor before you reach the last room. The music cuts out, the Legendary gives one cry as you approach, then the Orb catches its eye and the music kicks in for the encounter. I think it epitomizes "Less is More" in presentation, giving the Mascot a presence befitting the escalation they had this gen from "Large creatures" to Titans bordering on Deities. It gives this sense you're only within their notice because of the Orb even.
ORAS I think weakens it a bit because it just feels "safer" ironically. They give you this protective suit and the Titan is clearly aware of your presence, bringing you (actively or just as a consequence) to what is essentially an arena as if accepting a challenge. Maybe there's a nostalgia to it but it makes them seem like "just" big Pokemon despite the Primal lore existing to elevate them back to a monstrous status (ironically this happening when they held on pretty well against the God-Like Ubers that came in the intervening Gens)
I think despite the better scale of the models on screen vs Sprites and some improvements to the team writing, ORAS has a decidedly inferior atmosphere to the Legendary encounter in the Cave of Origin compared to RS. I would even go as far as to place those above how the Emerald resolution is handled, though that one is down to preference moreso than ORAS I feel doing "the same but weaker".
Riding on the Pokemon to the battle site before they Primal Revert is a little silly to look at, and I also think it kind of breaks the pacing/tension. RS it's a simple descent through the cave, rumbling each floor before you reach the last room. The music cuts out, the Legendary gives one cry as you approach, then the Orb catches its eye and the music kicks in for the encounter. I think it epitomizes "Less is More" in presentation, giving the Mascot a presence befitting the escalation they had this gen from "Large creatures" to Titans bordering on Deities. It gives this sense you're only within their notice because of the Orb even.
ORAS I think weakens it a bit because it just feels "safer" ironically. They give you this protective suit and the Titan is clearly aware of your presence, bringing you (actively or just as a consequence) to what is essentially an arena as if accepting a challenge. Maybe there's a nostalgia to it but it makes them seem like "just" big Pokemon despite the Primal lore existing to elevate them back to a monstrous status (ironically this happening when they held on pretty well against the God-Like Ubers that came in the intervening Gens)
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
I'd agree with this.
Since you mentioned Emerald, I've always held that Emerald is the best iteration of the story and I think part of what I like about it is that the player character is important to the story, but not integral - sure you awaken Rayquaza, but there's nothing inherently special about the player that enables them to do that. It's more that everyone else is too preoccupied to do it - Wallace unlocks the Sky Pillar but then hurries back to Sootopolis out of concern once the weather distortion spreads, Archie and Maxie are fixated on trying to control Groudon and Kyogre (apparently it never once occurs to either of them to try switching orbs for a second), and Steven... well, actually, Steven could have done it but let's ignore that.
But it's not anything inherent to the player, beyond their generic skill as a trainer, that makes the plot happen. They're not the chosen one (which I think totally works in other contexts - BW or HGSS for instance) nor do they have any special bond with Rayquaza or any of Hoenn's other legendaries in the way they're indicated to have in ORAS. In fact, it's one of those stories where if the player wasn't present things would largely probably turn out the same way - someone else could have defeated Team Aqua and Magma at Mt Chimney, and Rayquaza ends the fight between Groudon and Kyogre no matter who wakes it up. The player's role is important but not entirely irreplaceable.
All of this is to agree with your overall point that ORAS making the story feel "safer" lessens it slightly, because you get the sense that it'll turn out fine - Groudon/Kyogre is perfectly willing to wait and let you challenge them. In RS there's more of a sense of urgency, that you absolutely must catch/defeat them before the damage they're causing goes too far. In terms of tension and pacing it's definitely superior, and Emerald improves on that by making the civilians in Sootopolis actually give a shit - they're all assembled outside, looking on with concern as Kyogre and Groudon clash.
Since you mention this I also want to bring up that I like the Sootopolis clash on the map as well, because it achieves a similar effect in a different way: Groudon and Kyogre are these clashing behemoths that don't even bother to notice you surfing around the edge or even the middle of their fight.
Personally, my issue with Emerald’s version of the scenario is that it’s kind of a hackneyed deus ex machina. First, the game steers you toward the Sky Pillar in the most abrupt way possible: Wallace reveals out of the blue that a third super-ancient titan exists. Then, for some reason, the Champion of Hoenn has to ask you, a literal 12-year-old who has never heard of the Sky Pillar (unless you already played RS), where you think Rayquaza is. Once you’ve process-of-eliminationed your way through the set of options that the game inorganically provides for you, though, you as the player don’t actually do anything significant. You don’t overcome any noteworthy environmental obstacles — the Sky Pillar is still in a pristine state where you can simply stroll up to the top. And you don’t battle anything or anyone important on your way to Rayquaza. All you’re responsible for is tapping Rayquaza on the shoulder and saying, “Hey can you go fix this for us? Thanks.” And then it does, magically, with a single roar. Kyogre and Groudon shrug and leave. The villains dutifully repent. Everything’s fixed now. But none of this was earned.
(Also, while I do think the whole “riding on the titan’s back” thing is a weird addition, the flipside of that is that ORAS is the only version of the weather crisis that directly suggests there’s a body count at the end of it.
)
(Also, while I do think the whole “riding on the titan’s back” thing is a weird addition, the flipside of that is that ORAS is the only version of the weather crisis that directly suggests there’s a body count at the end of it.
)In the RS / ORAS scenario, there’s not really much for those civilians to go out and actually see — since Groudon / Kyogre have holed up in the Cave of Origin, all that would be visible to the average Sootopolitan is scorching sunlight or torrential rain, and it makes sense that people would be huddled up in their homes for safety in such a scenario. It’s not that they don’t give a shit, it’s that they’re following normal protocols in response to a natural disaster.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Yeah, the Wallace bit is... weird to say the least.
Since there's nothing stopping you from going to Pacifidlog and the surrounding areas, my assumption was always that the game devs assumed that you would have already explored the entirety of those southern routes and come to the Sky Pillar before meeting Wallace (perfectly possible to do, but the door's locked) thus making it plausible that you would know of it and be able to recommend it to him. Otherwise it's nonsensical, because the options are "don't know", two places you do know, and a third you don't.
Of course, this is due to the fact that you basically have free rein to do what you want once you're able to Surf beyond Lilycove, something RSE is fairly hands-off about. Much as ORAS tweaked things so that you were railroaded into beating Winona before being able to proceed beyond Fortree, I imagine that a hypothetical Emerald remake would have necessitated the player to complete some sort of mission in the vicinity of Pacifidlog as a condition to gaining access to Sootopolis/Seafloor Cavern. Or at the very least heavily hinted about it so that you at least knew the name and could go "oh, I've heard about another location..."
Yeah, can't argue here. What's weird about it is the Mirage Tower was seemingly created as a practice round for the Sky Pillar, since it has the same basic puzzle, so it would have felt reasonable to progress through a gauntlet.
While I appreciate the little implied detail that apparently Rayquaza landing on the Sky Pillar once it returns apparently shook the place badly enough to cause damage to the place and crack the floor, it is dull that the location is so pristine on your first visit. Perhaps they thought the puzzle was too difficult for most people, since it takes some quick finger-work to zigzag around some of the corners without falling. Maybe they just thought it'd be boring to do the same thing twice if you want to return to catch it.
I don't fully agree that it's dull to awaken Rayquaza - I remember being quite awed the first time I played, and there's a definite sense of "what's going to happen now?" when it flies off. Sure the climax is a bit abrupt and the return to clear weather is very quick, I wish it had gone on a little longer. But you have to consider the context: at the time that cutscene was very impressive by the standards of what had come before. It wasn't the fully realised 3D scene the trailers displayed, but Pokemon's visuals have never been that spectacular. I recall a friend once looking at my DS screen and saying "the graphics are incredible" in hushed tones when DP came out, which... sure.
And I actually really like the way Archie and Maxie's repentance is handled. Wallace says it wouldn't hurt to hear what they have to say, but I didn't get the sense that all's well and they're completely forgiven; it's more that everyone, them included, fully agrees they've been stupid and reckless and they need to make amends. Their goodbye scene at Mt Pyre indicates to me quite strongly that they're going to be spending their time making amends from here on out (fun fact, I used to determinedly avoid ever doing that sequence whenever I played RSE as I found it incredibly sad).
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It's odd because you can get a call from May/Brendan at some point in the late game (maybe it's guaranteed?) where they mention seeing a big green Pokemon in the sky near Pacifidlog, but that still doesn't help you know that Rayquaza's at a place called the Sky Pillar. Seems like they could have added a line mentioning the Sky Pillar by name so it feels vaguely like you're stringing together clues to solve a puzzle. Honestly, there are a million ways it could have been done better.
I'll always defend Emerald over ORAS, though. For all its excellent features, I find that ORAS fails at the most important part of a Pokemon game: creating fun and engaging battles. The power level of maingame NPC trainers didn't increase in any meaningful way from RSE to ORAS (besides a couple of Megas I guess) and in many ways regressed from RS and especially Emerald. Meanwhile, the player has so many more tools to play with in the remakes that every battle feels completely trivial, even if you don't make use of stuff like the buffed Exp. Share or the free Lati@s.
And this isn't just 'surprise surprise, Pokemon games are easier as an adult' because even now I occasionally go back and play Emerald and it's still a more interesting challenge than ORAS.
I'll always defend Emerald over ORAS, though. For all its excellent features, I find that ORAS fails at the most important part of a Pokemon game: creating fun and engaging battles. The power level of maingame NPC trainers didn't increase in any meaningful way from RSE to ORAS (besides a couple of Megas I guess) and in many ways regressed from RS and especially Emerald. Meanwhile, the player has so many more tools to play with in the remakes that every battle feels completely trivial, even if you don't make use of stuff like the buffed Exp. Share or the free Lati@s.
And this isn't just 'surprise surprise, Pokemon games are easier as an adult' because even now I occasionally go back and play Emerald and it's still a more interesting challenge than ORAS.
Castersvarog
formerly Maronmario
Heck, in Fortree city, there’s an npc who says they saw a giant green serpent flying in the sky, so they could have added in at least a text box about how it went towards Pacifidlog town to at least hint towards the player. And iirc there’s at least a few npcs who mention said flying serpent, be it through regular text boxes or pokenav calls, so there could have been several opportunities to hint towards where it’s heading to make you explore and find out about the sky pillar early.
The most likely reason is because going back for the Mach bike would be a massive pacebreaker if you had the Acro Bike at this point, both for the distance and because of the story in progress. I think they could have presented other obstacles (maybe a battle without capture option ala Kyurem in B2W2) before Rayquaza goes to fix things, but the floor puzzle does present a potential wall to continuing if the player picked the wrong bike (would work better with the Gen 4 Gear system or Remakes giving both bikes)
Battle without capture wasn't a thing that was in the engine until BW2 though.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Er... are we sure about that? Trainer battles have been a thing since Gen I, not to mention the ghost Marowak. Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to use the same "it dodged the ball" mechanic FRLG used literally one game earlier.
Did XD and Colosseum run on the same mechanics because those also had scenarios like the Battle Sims where Capture wasn't allowed or things like turning off Snags when the Machine was stolen in XD.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Broadly yes, they probably do, as they just replicate the battle system from the main series. It's honestly never occurred to me whether you could catch Pokemon in Sims (has anyone tried it? I believe in most if not all scripted sim battles you're given a custom bag, which wouldn't include Pokeballs, but I expect someone could hack them in).
For the part of XD when the Snag Machine is missing I'd assume the game just sets a flag that temporarily disables the ability to snag, so basically the same scenario as is the case for all non-Shadow encounters.
- The Orre games are their own separate "fork" of the engine, there is nothing from them in the later games.
- The Battle Sims are trainer battles, you fight a Sim Trainer, the Pokémon are never "wild".
Considering that Emerald doesn't actually have the code for any of the Pokémon Tower mechanics? Very.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
1. Yep, I thought so (said as much on this thread)
2. True, I was responding to Pika's point about them. But if you can hack the game to catch trainer's Pokemon, I assume it'd be possible to catch Sim Pokemon (whether you could keep them after, I've no clue)
Emerald might not have that code, but the fact that FRLG did means that the functionality exists and could potentially have been added.
EDIT: Forgot something, RSE also has one battle where fleeing is disabled (if "run" is selected during the first battle against the Poochyena/Zigzagoon, Birch protests and it doesn't work) while Battle Facility matches obviously also disable the bag altogether. So if they really wanted to, they could absolutely have done a "battle without capture" scenario. Though I expect some clever person would eventually have found a way to glitch around it, as so often happens.
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