Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
It isn't one of my favorites but I like it. It's probably just Binacle's bad rep unfairly spilling over to it
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
What about Skrelp / Clauncher ? :) With Good Rod IIRC at Cyllage City / ROute 8 and Ambrette town !
good point
Which is something I really don't like from the generations that are after Gen V.
Do you want to only use new Pokémon? You have to REALLY get out of the way to do that, as the games throw everything up to the kitchen sink of old Pokémon.
I don’t think they did a particularly good job at celebrating all generations. Sina and Dexio were nice and I really like them as characters, but their appearances were nothing super major from what I can remember. Colress and Grimsley only had minor appearances outside of the Battle Tree. Meanwhile, Red and Blue are from Gen 1 and they are the bosses of the Tree, though that is actually somewhat acceptable as it means you don’t get to face them much if you go for a long streak since they only appear once during a Super streak, in battle #50. Anabel and Looker only appear during the post-game story, while Wally and Cynthia only appear at the Tree. And there’s no special trainer from Johto at the Tree (unless you count Red and Blue as being from both Kanto and Johto). Speaking of the Tree, it is post-game only, locking main encounters with celebratory characters to the post-game (and in a really hard battle facility, for that matter) feels like doing a bad job at it if most players only care for the main game and if the post-game itself is on around the same level as that of X/Y in terms of content, but worse in terms of gameplay. I love the Battle Tree, but I don't think S/M did a good job at celebrating all generations. The UB Quest with Anabel and Looker is also post-game only. Rainbow Rocket had all generations represented, but it was once more Kanto that stole the spotlight and stood out since all of the grunts were from Team Rocket, Giovanni was the overall leader and the grunts only used Kanto Pokémon. I agree about Alola forms, I think they were partly a failure since they were Kanto only. One of the biggest reasons I like Galarian forms better is because they were not Kanto only.
In comparison, I think X/Y generally did a better job at focusing on all generations. While there were a lot of Kanto references, I never felt that it completely overshadowed all other regions in the same way as all the absurd Kanto references in S/M did.
As for the things you listed from Gen 6, I completely forgot about the anime re-using the first opening theme, mostly because I don’t watch the anime and I don’t care much for it. But I know that the S/M anime brought back Brock and Misty for a few episodes, so it had some Kanto references too. Never watched Origins so no comment there, but I don’t think I would enjoy it as much as Generations or Twilight Wings.
That’s interesting. I was personally rather disappointed by all the issues Gen 7 had. Before the release of S/M, I had sort of hoped and expected that they would be better than not only Gen 6 but also Gen 5… but that didn’t happen and because of that, it soured my opinion of Gen 7. So it is only my third favorite after Gen 5 & 6, those two are my favorites from the modern generations (and overall, for that matter). I felt that S/S are worse than US/UM but better than S/M as I explained in my previous post. I lost a lot of initial interest in Gen 8 after the reveal of dexit, but I still decided to give Sword a chance. And looking back at it now, it was fun, even more now with the DLC. I agree that it could and should have been a lot more and been better on the whole… but that can be said about Gen 7 and even 6 as well. In the end, I still enjoyed Sword for what it was. I have also more or less given up my hopes on the series ever reaching the greatness of the Gen 5/6 days again. I’m also thinking of quitting Pokémon, but I’m not really sure. And whether it will be directly after Sword or if I will get more new games in the future depends on what the future games will be like.
1. Fair enough, I just find it annoying when people bring it up as a major issue with X/Y (or S/S) but give S/M a free pass since I think they deserve just as much criticism of it.
2. I don’t really agree. I think the concept of the Alolan forms was great, but the execution is what I have an issue with, most notably the fact that they are Kanto only. I don’t think S/M did a particularly good job at including all other regions as well, I think they focused too much on Kanto in major aspects while the other regions mostly got minor references at best.
3. I disagree. I think X/Y did a better job at showcasing all regions. Megas represented all Generations from 1-4 even if Gen 1 & 3 got the most, and OR/AS gave Gen 5/6 one Mega each as well. X/Y have many Kanto Pokémon, but I felt that they had many Pokémon from the other regions as well and that they had better Pokémon distribution overall. Overall, I think X/Y did a better job at showcasing and focusing on all regions compared to what S/M did, or compared to any previous generation for that matter. R/B, R/S and B/W did a good job at showing their new Pokémon at least, but GS, D/P and S/M failed. I never noticed Team Flare having the same Pokémon as Team Rocket, when I look at the trainer rosters of Team Flare now I notice that they have some similarities but also several differences, so I don’t think it should be said that they used almost the same Pokémon.
4. I agree with this. Being an anniversary game is not an excuse to give heavy focus to just gen 1. Gen 7 should have focused more on Alola itself, or all old regions more evenly, or maybe both.
5. I agree with this as well, not much to add but Johto is clearly the worst offender when it comes to being taken over by Kanto. HG/SS are even worse since they had an excellent opportunity to fix everything that was wrong with GSC, yet they did next to nothing.
Interstingly, I disagree with most of your opinions and thoughts here.
I think X/Y are way more interesting and better games than S/M. I agree that the story in X/Y isn’t very interesting, but story isn’t very important for me in Pokémon games and I think they succeed in many other aspects instead, such as a balanced level curve (as long as you play with Exp. Share off), better Pokémon distribution, a better and larger regional dex, a more interesting region and better training spots. Also the PSS, Festival Plaza is terrible in comparison. That said, I will admit that I struggled a little to get through Y at some points during the game, but I still had a ton of fun with X/Y, they are my favorite main series games for the 3DS. I never struggled with the main game of S/M, but the post-game often frustrated me a lot. It just wasn't as great as I had hoped.
I never used any of the gift Pokémon in X/Y (or OR/AS) and I did just fine, I just used the Pokémon I wanted to use instead. It is sad to see how you felt that you had to use them, I never felt that way when I played X/Y (or any other Pokémon game). I kind of agree that X/Y could have focused more on Megas during the main game, but I think they wanted to make Megas feel really special, though I suppose this is also something they could have done better during the main game. I think they did it pretty well during the post-game though.
I think X/Y actually executed most important things well and that S/M are the bigger offenders when it comes to poor execution. S/M had so much potential but it was held back by some very questionable design choices and lackluster gameplay. I disagree about S/M being more of a game. If anything, I feel that X/Y are more of a game, while S/M are basically more of a story presented in game form. If you don’t care much for the story or don’t like it, then there’s not much to do and the things that exist are mostly poorly executed or better in US/UM anyway. It feels to me that S/M focused so much on the story that they forgot about the rest of the game, while I think X/Y did the opposite, they focused so much on making a fun game that they forget about the story. And that is an approach I prefer. Story schmory, give me a good game instead! X/Y had the Battle Maison which was a ton of fun when it comes to post-game battle challenges, but S/M has the Battle Tree so I’d say they are equal there... if it wasn't for the fact that US/UM exists, which makes S/M obsolete. And for me, the Kanto pandering is much more of a problem in Gen 7.
It is funny because those are two of the references I never even noticed when I played X/Y for the first time, I only noticed them afterwards because of fans who were whining about them on the internet. They were subtle references and done in a very good way, compared to S/M and their Kanto spam during their story.
I thought about this, and I think the answer is that we are generally more biased to whichever game we like better. I like X/Y better than S/M and thus I am more willing to look past the fan pandering in X/Y and their other issues, while I don’t like S/M all that much anymore and thus I’m a lot more critical towards them for their fan pandering and their other issues (especially the lack of training spots, goodness). Now that I also like S/S better than S/M, I guess I am more forgiving to them as well. At the same time, it is the opposite for you as you like S/M better (or so I believe) and is more forgiving towards them while you are more critical towards X/Y and S/S. That’s my theory regarding this, at least.
I wanted to say something regarding all the things you listed even if I don’t think we will agree about everything, so here we go! First of all, I agree with what you said about Alolan forms, Charizard being the Fly Slave and exclusive the Z-moves. I checked the Totems are they are mostly Alola Pokémon, but there are some Alolan forms (a.k.a. Kanto Pokémon) as well: Raticate in Moon/Ultra Moon and Marowak in US/UM. These are the only two though, so that’s fine. While most of the important trainers often use an Alola Pokémon as their ace, not all of them do. Nanu has an Alolan Persian as his ace, Ilima uses Smeargle during the main game (interestingly, it isn’t a Kanto Pokémon!) but changes to Komala during the post-game in US/UM, Kiawe uses Alolan Marowak, Soffy has an Alolan Golem, Molayne an Alolan Dugtrio, and Faba uses a Hypno. But I don’t think it is all that bad though, it could have been much worse, it isn’t exactly Johto-level. I already explained my thoughts on the other characters and Rainbow Rocket, why I think it is still too much Kanto and not enough in terms of being a celebration of all regions.
And here's a short list of some other things I think are annoying regarding fan pandering in Gen 7:
- The player character has moved to Alola from Kanto
- Kanto is mentioned so much during the story that I don’t even know what
- Lille going to Kanto in the end of S/M, Gladion going to Kanto and Johto to train in US/UM (and he uses a Kanto starter when he comes back)
- The Nugget Bridge in Malie Garden, this just made me sigh when I first saw it and it is a very non-subtle reference
- The Kantonian Gym in US/UM
- Samson Oak (though I still like him and I actually wish he got more screentime)
- Diglett’s Tunnel being a direct reference to Diglett’s Cave, it isn't anywhere near as subtle as the Kanto location references in Kalos
In comparison, X/Y forces you to get a starter with a Mega stone as well as a Lucario, but you don’t have to use either if you don’t want to. Santalune Forest having the same layout as Viridan Forest is another subtle thing I never even noticed when I played through X/Y for the first time. As for the Gym, the Laverre (Fairy) Gym has the same (or at least a very similar) puzzle as the Saffron Gym in Gen 1. I think that was something I noticed when I played through X/Y, but it didn’t bother me because the overall Gym designs as very different. The Saffron Gym is just a very generic place while the Laverre Gym felt like a doll house to me which was really cool.
S/S has three Gym leaders with Kanto aces, that’s true. But it never bothered me that much as most things in S/M did. And all the S/S Gym Leaders do at least have a Galar Pokémon on their team, even if it isn't the ace for all of them. I am a little annoyed by Leon having Charizard as his ace, it gets especially annoying at the Battle Tower… but I can live with it. I also think the DLC “fixed” this issue in a way by giving Gmax forms to Venusaur/Blastoise and the Galar starters as well, so that’s cool. I have fewer issues with the Galarian forms since they are not strictly Kanto only, and I think the birds are fine too. Plus, legendaries from the other regions got the spotlight in the DLC with the Regis (both new and old), the musketeers, not to mention Calyrex and the horses. I agree that it is annoying that the top three Pokémon in Galar are all from Kanto, but it is also a minor thing and learning about it in the games is optional too IIRC.
As for other things… there’s Gmax in general which are mostly limited to just Kanto and Galar. I don’t mind it that much though since I don’t care much for Gmax as a concept in general even if I have grown to appreciate it a little more after having used it myself recently.
I disagree about most things here. You are right in that they probably tried to make X/Y the opposite of B/W because of the bad fan reception B/W got. That’s also why I believe the franchise is in such a sad state right now with massive fan pandering and focus on Gen 1, lackluster content and even gameplay issues starting with Gen 7. Not to mention how hard it can be to find the new Pokémon in the newer generations post Gen 5, notably Gen 7. I think X/Y did a way better job at showcasing their new Pokémon than S/M, which suffer so hard from Johto syndrome that it should almost be renamed Alola syndrome. Others already proved you wrong about Greninja, so I have nothing more to say there. As for advertising their new Pokémon, I think X/Y were worse than Gen 1/3/5, about equal to Gen 8, but better than Gen 2/4/7 (only talking about the first pairs here, not follow-up games). Those three last ones just did a very poor job at it, and I think S/M are the second worst in the bunch, beaten only by G/S… but at the same time, it is hard to not be better than Johto. I think X/Y were really fun games, way better than S/M. Now that I look back at them, I really liked X/Y while I think S/M were pretty bland games, their gameplay issues and too much focus on the story coupled with the fan pandering and the fact that they are obsolete because of US/UM makes it hard for them to stand out, which is why they have dropped in my main series ranking recently.
And now that I have some more time, I wanted to take a look at the list you posted yesterday, how I feel about everything you listed, why I disagree with a lot of it and why I think S/M were worse in some aspects. Some of these are repeats though.
This was something I didn’t notice even until I looked at the actual statistics of the dex. Which is very easy now that we have a thread for that. I think X/Y did a better job at showcasing all regions (including Kalos itself) thanks to the Pokémon distribution. In comparison, Alola has less Kanto Pokémon in terms of the actual number, but the S/M Alola Dex has more in terms of percentage. They 87 Pokémon out of 302, which is 28%. Kalos had 111 out of 457, which is 24%. It isn’t a super huge difference, but S/M are slightly worse. I also think they were worse for another reason: their awful Pokémon distribution and how they gave the spotlight to Kanto and showcased the Kanto Pokémon way more than all other regions, including Alola itself.
True, but they are completely optional to use, you don’t have to use them unless you want to. I didn’t use them and I did just fine without them, I used the Pokémon I wanted to use instead.
One fan theory I have seen floating around is that all three Kalos starters were planned to get a super form in “Z” if said game had happened, but now it didn’t so we’ll never know, and Greninja was shifted to S/M intead. And again, the Kanto starters and their Megas are optional. I kind of wish Chesnaught and Delphox had gotten some super forms and that Ash-Greninja had been handled better, but even so I don't mind it all that much.
I honestly don’t mind. This was also the first time Charizard got some extra attention (in the games), it was worse when they continued with it in S/M with it being a Fly Slave there, and in S/S where it was in the Galar main dex and it got a Gmax form and was Leon's ace, while the other Kanto starters didn’t get either a Gmax form or got into a Galar Dex before the DLC.
I definitely think they could have done a better job at explaining why they were there, but they are post-game only and completely optional so I did not find it to be a big issue.
Again, this is the kind of subtle thing I didn’t even notice until someone pointed it out.
Wrong. I looked up this just to be sure. The first encounter in the game is always going to be against a Pidgey, but the catching tutorial is against a Bunnelby. Regarding the Pidgey, it doesn't really annoy me either.
Those are also subtle things I didn’t even notice at first, and they can’t be compared to how the word “Kanto” was being spammed everywhere during the story like it was in Gen 7.
Yes. There’s more, you can find most of it in the link to Bulbapedia's page of cross-generational references I linked to earlier.
While we're at it, here are some more things I found on that list that I wanted to mention and what I think about them:
- Starting with X/Y, some moves use their original sound effect from Gen 1, notably Hyper beam and Psychic. I thought this was pretty fun in X/Y since it was the first time they did it. Then I found it annoying in Gen 7 since they did it again and they had so much other Kanto focus in S/M as well… but the worst offender here is actually Gen 8 which still keeps those sound effects. It means they have now done it THREE generations in a row, and I think it sounds so awful on the Switch, it clashes hard with modern sound effects and music. I wonder if they are going to keep doing it again for all eternity forward now? Since it seems like they won’t be dropping it anytime soon.
- X/Y also had a Snorlax which had has to be awoken with the Poké Flute. This was something I thought was fun and I didn’t mind it one bit.
- Some aspects of Lysandre Labs are similar to Team Rocket hideouts with warp panels. I don’t mind, not to mentions similar puzzles have appeared in other regions too, like in Fuego Ironworks in Sinnoh.
- Unknown Dungeon being similar to Cerulean Cave in that they have the same name (more or less) and that you can catch Mewtwo there. I don’t have an issue with Mewtwo, but I really wish the Unknown Dungeon in X/Y was bigger!
- Poké Ball Factory being similar to Silph Co. in a way. As said earlier, a subtle reference which I never even thought when I played X/Y.
I disagree. I think X/Y mostly were fine while S/M were the worst… as I have just explained above lol.
Unrelated to everything above, I guess there’s also LGP/E which are pretty big offenders for Kanto fan pandering too. But I don't think that's an unpopular opinion.
To summarize all of this, here's a TL;DR: I think S/M are the worst when it comes to fan pandering to Kanto/Gen 1. X/Y and S/S have some issues with it as well but they aren't as major IMO. Judging by what the common opinion seems to be (in this thread, if nothing else), I think my opinion is the more unpopular one regarding this.
Gonna catch these mf hands
I feel like calling LGPE "Kanto pandering" is a bit weird, because... it's a remake. It's the entire point of the game. I haven't played those games yet, but conceptually, I don't mind the idea of Kanto getting another remake, the last time the region got a full game centered around it was in Gen 3, which is already old enough for the Gen's main games to get modern remakes themselves, and FRLG, while very fun games by themselves (I'm replaying them right now, coincidentally), still were far from ideal remakes for RBY.
We definitely look at these games differently (which is cool! makes me think more about how I approach games and how others perceive them), as usually the main quest / story is what interests me the most. I do really like the regional dex (even with its size being at time a little too big) and the general level progression / bosses interests me in doing a challenge run. Nowdays, I find that playing through pokemon games I need something a little more than just the battles. The gameplay element of the battles has pretty much always been the same, so I tend to look towards other things. Most of the post game facilities I generally ignore tbh unless there is something interesting to them, if I want to competitively battle I can load up the battle spot ladder.
Gift pokemon I usually see as filling two criteria: showing off something, and giving something to the player to actually use (note: some gift pokemon can be both). Take Platinum, besides your starter you get: Togepi (Lv. 1 egg), Eevee (Lv. 20), Porygon (Lv. 25) and Riolu (Lv. 1 egg). the Eevee and Porygon are given to you around the level that your other pokemon should be around at that time, making them fit right on your team. You don't need to take them, but by design the game is sending the message that they fit your teams levels and you should try them. the egg pokemon are there to show off the new pokemon, and you can use it, you just need to grind a level 1 pokemon to match your team. all of those gift pokemon have new evolutions that you can use in the game, you you can use them and try something new at the same time. It's a nice way to indicate to the players that you should try out these pokemon, you get them with no catching required, and there is usually something unique to them. On my first runs of games, I like trying out these gift pokemon because I see it as the designers saying "try this." I did this with Toxel in Sword and I really enjoyed it.
X and Y have 5 times you are gifted a pokemon: Starter, Kanto Starter, Fossil, Lucario, Lapras. Each are given at a reasonable level for when you get them (5, 10, 20, 32, 30), and it feel less designed as something to try out, and rather something that your entire team should be. You can make a pretty nice team from only the gift pokemon, and if you want a 6th, you can cap it off with Xerneas/Yveltal. If the player wants to use Mega evolution, the most straightforward option is through the Kanto Starters or the Lucario, and that is why I felt like I should use them, because I wanted to try out mega pokemon. The other mega stones / pokemon you pretty much have to hunt for, and you would not know without looking it up that the far majority of pokemon that can mega are only able to in the post game. The restrictions are far more noticeable and forced when the games new mechanic is already locked behind a subset of pokemon, and of that subset you can only use a even more select few in the main story. When trying out Z-moves and Dynamax in the main game, any pokemon can use those mechanics, so I'm not missing out on Dynamax if I am not using G-Max Charizard, but if want to use mega evolution during the main game, I only have 8 pokemon that I can do so with. (realistically 5, as you can only pick one kanto starter and get the mega stone per run).
Alola Defense Time [discussion on referencing past games into current games and defending Alola's use of materials from previous games]:
My general idea here is that if you are going to reference previous games / movies / any media: (a) integrate it use it well and/or differentiate it if you are not going to be explicit about using old material, or (b): Just Do It™, don't cover it up. Some of the references to the Kanto games in X and Y works pretty well, Santalune Forest is a great way to introduce the player to what a 3D dungeon looks like and how to navigate that space by following the same basic design of a old, familiar dungeon. Design wise its pretty open about being ripped directly from Viridian Forest, but it works as a first dungeon. Beyond that though, every time the game brings up something that Kanto did, there is nothing new that X and Y brings to the table. Santalune works as an introduction, but beyond the game if referencing something or copying something, it should do something different with it. Going through a cave to fight the evil team and finding fossils has been done before, and X/Y says how about you do it again, but in France. The Poke Ball factory plot points play out almost exactly as it happened in Silph Co. There's a slight difference in that Team Flare actually steals a lot of pokeballs, but why not have them steal the Master Ball too? It would take the expectation that you have with the game playing the same as Silph Co. and your reward being the master ball, but turn it on the player's head.
Alola, while more explicit that it is referencing Kanto, I think integrates it well into the game and the region as a whole. Alola games throw Kanto right in you face, yet still manages to show off the regions own flavor. The expectation I had going in was: buckle up, its time for kanto
The state Alola is based off of (Hawaii) has a history and culture filled with immigration and different groups arriving on the islands. Today, Hawaii has a substantial population who can trace themselves from descending from Japan. It makes sense that the Alola region would highlight the connection to the pokemon regions based of of Japan. Alola's Malie Garden is clearly based on Liliʻuokalani Park and Gardens, and it makes sense to showoff that connection and how it came to be in the pokemon world. It's never been a concern to me that the games show the connection that these places have in the real world with the game's own fictional places.
If you are going to reference previous games, either be explicit about it, or do something different with the material! You can rub it in my face that this is a nostalgia journey! Don't take previous shit and tell me its something new. At the very least do something different, take what I expect and change it!
Speaking of themes in Alola, anyone remember those commercials involving a kid from Japan traveling to Hawaii? He was uncomfortable at first but started opening up to others, making friends, etc. The final trailer ended with him returning back to Japan, saying goodbye to his friends.
These trailers pretty much foreshadowed Lillie's arc. That was genius...
Also, you can notice the scene when Lillie already did her "Z transformation" with her face cropped to avoid spoilers.
(those jerks deserved to lose for using physical Alolan Persian, who tf uses that?)
These trailers pretty much foreshadowed Lillie's arc. That was genius...
Also, you can notice the scene when Lillie already did her "Z transformation" with her face cropped to avoid spoilers.
(those jerks deserved to lose for using physical Alolan Persian, who tf uses that?)
idk if this 1 is unpopular but ive never seen anyone else express it
everyone who says that ice types are all designed to be slow bulky bad walls (except weavile) doesnt know what theyre talking about!!!! if you actually look at the ice types, there's honestly a pretty good balance between offensive and defensive. most bad ice types are bad cause their stats/abilities/movepool are bad, not specifically cause they're ice type.
first off, here's a list of ice types that i would call "slow and defensive":
abomasnow, articuno, aurorus, avalugg, lapras, regice, walrein
really not that many, and you can't deny that they can do pretty well at not being completely useless. for example, aboma brings hail to slush rush users, regice can run offensive sets due to its potent coverage, and articuno had a niche on bulky teams in uu last gen due to pressure + defog + heal bell.
compare this list length to some others, such as:
slow + offensive:
mega abomasnow, ice rider calyrex, glastrier, crabominable, glaceon, frosmoth
the really terrible mons here (crab and glaceon) are only down there because of their rampardos-tier stat spreads without the rampardos-tier attack. they simply cannot take a hit. if you increase bulk, you get stuff like mega abomasnow eating uninvested scalds for breakfast and glastrier tearing up ru. this is a stat spread issue, not a type issue.
balanced/weird:
cloyster, cryogonal, delibird, dewgong, glalie, mr. rime, ninetales-alola, vanilluxe
a bunch of meme pokemon alongside a bunch of mons that can actually do stuff here. cloyster has been solid ever since gen 1. obviously the meme pokemon being bad has nothing to do with them being ice type, thats like saying furret is bad cause hes normal type
fast + offensive (ability reliant):
arctovish, arctozolt, beartic, sandslash-alola
your weather users. these struggle cause you stack weaknesses with the weather setter and hail doesnt give ice moves a boost, so these guys dont really have anything to set them apart from other weathers
fast + offensive:
darmanitan-galar, eiscue, froslass, mega glalie, kyurem, mamoswine, weavile
the big boys. these dont really need an introduction. debated putting froslass in balanced but its just very fast and you have spikes + dbond unlike cryo
anyway, that covers all the fully evolved ice types that arent forms such as rotom frost. in my opinion, not only can defensive ices sometimes be executed pretty well (i'd say avalugg is a decent example of this, even having a small niche in ou last gen), they aren't super common compared to everything else. if you look at other types like grass or water, i'm sure you'd find a similar-looking ratio.
i agree that the ice type has problems and could do with a better design philosophy, but this isn't it. making a gazillion glass cannons with perfect coverage or whatever sounds really boring anyway.
everyone who says that ice types are all designed to be slow bulky bad walls (except weavile) doesnt know what theyre talking about!!!! if you actually look at the ice types, there's honestly a pretty good balance between offensive and defensive. most bad ice types are bad cause their stats/abilities/movepool are bad, not specifically cause they're ice type.
first off, here's a list of ice types that i would call "slow and defensive":
abomasnow, articuno, aurorus, avalugg, lapras, regice, walrein
really not that many, and you can't deny that they can do pretty well at not being completely useless. for example, aboma brings hail to slush rush users, regice can run offensive sets due to its potent coverage, and articuno had a niche on bulky teams in uu last gen due to pressure + defog + heal bell.
compare this list length to some others, such as:
slow + offensive:
mega abomasnow, ice rider calyrex, glastrier, crabominable, glaceon, frosmoth
the really terrible mons here (crab and glaceon) are only down there because of their rampardos-tier stat spreads without the rampardos-tier attack. they simply cannot take a hit. if you increase bulk, you get stuff like mega abomasnow eating uninvested scalds for breakfast and glastrier tearing up ru. this is a stat spread issue, not a type issue.
balanced/weird:
cloyster, cryogonal, delibird, dewgong, glalie, mr. rime, ninetales-alola, vanilluxe
a bunch of meme pokemon alongside a bunch of mons that can actually do stuff here. cloyster has been solid ever since gen 1. obviously the meme pokemon being bad has nothing to do with them being ice type, thats like saying furret is bad cause hes normal type
fast + offensive (ability reliant):
arctovish, arctozolt, beartic, sandslash-alola
your weather users. these struggle cause you stack weaknesses with the weather setter and hail doesnt give ice moves a boost, so these guys dont really have anything to set them apart from other weathers
fast + offensive:
darmanitan-galar, eiscue, froslass, mega glalie, kyurem, mamoswine, weavile
the big boys. these dont really need an introduction. debated putting froslass in balanced but its just very fast and you have spikes + dbond unlike cryo
anyway, that covers all the fully evolved ice types that arent forms such as rotom frost. in my opinion, not only can defensive ices sometimes be executed pretty well (i'd say avalugg is a decent example of this, even having a small niche in ou last gen), they aren't super common compared to everything else. if you look at other types like grass or water, i'm sure you'd find a similar-looking ratio.
i agree that the ice type has problems and could do with a better design philosophy, but this isn't it. making a gazillion glass cannons with perfect coverage or whatever sounds really boring anyway.
Also, Mamoswine was never fast and 95 Base is nowhere as good as it used to be due to the later gens' power creep.
Eiscue also stands out for actually being slow until Ice Face is busted.
So yeah, Ice is really not known for its "fast, offensive mons." You got Weavile, Darm, and maybe Mega Glalie if you're not playing Dexit formats.
I guess the key point still stands, though: Ice is not a bad type, it's just that most Ice-type Pokémon synergize horribly poorly with the properties of the typing. Defensive builds on a typing with no resistances, for instance. You need freakishly high defensive stats or moves that would be broken on any other type (Aurora Veil, anyone?) to compensate for that basic inadequacy.
But that's just one of the many failures of the Ice-type. Physical Ice-type moves are a joke, for instance. The strongest widely available one is Icicle Crash with 85 BP and 90 Accuracy. Same stats as Blaze Kick and Sky Uppercut. EDIT: Seems like Triple Axel is a bit stronger, but few physically-oriented Ice-types can learn it.
Special Ice-types are better (well, Freeze-Dry, Ice Beam, and Blizzard are, but those are all you need), but there are few fast, strong special-oriented Ice-types to wield them. They are more commonly seen as coverage options for other types than as main STAB moves on Ice-types.
Speaking of coverage, that's another area where Ice-types are badly lacking. Vanilluxe has the stats to be an effective Special attacker, but outside Ice- and Normal-type moves, its only coverage options are Flash Cannon, Water Pulse, and Astonish. That's literally every damaging move it learns that are not of those two types. Well, technically there's Weather Ball too, but in any other weather than clear weather or hail, Vanilluxe is going to have a very rough time. Glaceon is another Ice-type whose stat spread is Special-oriented, but whose full list of Special coverage moves is Shadow Ball, Water Pulse, Mud Slap and Stored Power. The latter requires boosting moves to be effective, but Glaceon's boosting movepool is limited to Double Team and Work Up.
And then we're not even talking about in-game availability. Or evolution. For some reason, you usually get access to Ice-types ungodly late in the game, which is kind of strange given how badly they tend to perform for the aforementioned reasons.
Game Freak clearly hates the Ice-type. Why else can it still be the rarest type around? The only type with fewer than six three-stage evolution lines (it has four)? One of only five types never to be given to starter Pokémon or their (available) evolutions? Everything else? The typing doesn't excel over the others by any metric, but it underperforms by quite a lot of them.
But that's just one of the many failures of the Ice-type. Physical Ice-type moves are a joke, for instance. The strongest widely available one is Icicle Crash with 85 BP and 90 Accuracy. Same stats as Blaze Kick and Sky Uppercut. EDIT: Seems like Triple Axel is a bit stronger, but few physically-oriented Ice-types can learn it.
Special Ice-types are better (well, Freeze-Dry, Ice Beam, and Blizzard are, but those are all you need), but there are few fast, strong special-oriented Ice-types to wield them. They are more commonly seen as coverage options for other types than as main STAB moves on Ice-types.
Speaking of coverage, that's another area where Ice-types are badly lacking. Vanilluxe has the stats to be an effective Special attacker, but outside Ice- and Normal-type moves, its only coverage options are Flash Cannon, Water Pulse, and Astonish. That's literally every damaging move it learns that are not of those two types. Well, technically there's Weather Ball too, but in any other weather than clear weather or hail, Vanilluxe is going to have a very rough time. Glaceon is another Ice-type whose stat spread is Special-oriented, but whose full list of Special coverage moves is Shadow Ball, Water Pulse, Mud Slap and Stored Power. The latter requires boosting moves to be effective, but Glaceon's boosting movepool is limited to Double Team and Work Up.
And then we're not even talking about in-game availability. Or evolution. For some reason, you usually get access to Ice-types ungodly late in the game, which is kind of strange given how badly they tend to perform for the aforementioned reasons.
Game Freak clearly hates the Ice-type. Why else can it still be the rarest type around? The only type with fewer than six three-stage evolution lines (it has four)? One of only five types never to be given to starter Pokémon or their (available) evolutions? Everything else? The typing doesn't excel over the others by any metric, but it underperforms by quite a lot of them.
I don't think gamefreak hates ice types, they just fill a niche that isnt really fit for them, and gamefreak doesnt care or doesnt understand it.
Ice types have always seem to be assigned polar-esque areas, which are rare in most of the countries. Its why theyre secluded to the north, caves etc, which are often placed in later dungeons in jrpg fashion. It wouldnt be bad if ice was akin to dragon, that are build to be great late game when placed there.
I think this could be solved simply by changing the matchup chart of ice and making a normal strong ice stab with no drawbacks and gimmicks (95 bp or something). Wouldnt make ice super good competitive yet but would make them good in the casual gameplay
Ice types have always seem to be assigned polar-esque areas, which are rare in most of the countries. Its why theyre secluded to the north, caves etc, which are often placed in later dungeons in jrpg fashion. It wouldnt be bad if ice was akin to dragon, that are build to be great late game when placed there.
I think this could be solved simply by changing the matchup chart of ice and making a normal strong ice stab with no drawbacks and gimmicks (95 bp or something). Wouldnt make ice super good competitive yet but would make them good in the casual gameplay
I feel like the Rock type is similar to ice in that regard, where most of the Pokémon are made to be slow and bulky (because it just... makes sense for a rock to be like that), but the type's matchups, due to being great offensively while having a lot of weaknesses, are better suited for glass cannons. At least Rock manages to still be better than Ice in that regard, due to both the matchups themselves being a little better (Rock has some alright resistances so it isn't the worst defensive type in the game) and simply having a lot more diversity in terms of Pokémon, so we still get the ocasional Aerodactyl or Archeops or Lycanroc for all the Geodudes and Roggenrolas they make.
I also find it worth noting that, in addition to their weaknesses making rock and ice poor for defensive roles, the types also aren't very good at slow offense/wallbreaking roles since they don't have good matchups against the main defensive types of water and steel (rock also loses to grass, but grass is a mixed bag as it is). Rock and ice want to engage more offensive types because they don't beat defense, and that requires being able to go first (thanks glastrier for making me rephrase around 'outspeed') because they are weak to common coverage.
Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me for the Ice-Type. In every other game, you are encouraged to use ice-elemental stuff in water, either because it can create benefitial effects (like, say, freezing it in Zelda or Kirby) or because it simply does more damage to water enemies (like in certain RPGs, such as EarthBound), but then Pokémon penalizes you for doing that for some reason.
If we're honestly trying to bring how elements work in other games, then Pokémon makes little sense in other matchups as well. Ice and Fire should totally be strong against each other, for instance
I'd probably add Alolan Sandslash, Arctozolt, Arctovish and maybe Beartic since they have the niches of being Slush Rush abusers. Jynx and Lapras should also be added, since the former has decent offensive stats and surprisingly good move pool, consisting of Lovely Kiss, Nasty Plot, Ice Beam, Focus Blast and Psychic, while Lapras has its Gmax form. Oddly, Hail actually has the most weather setters, with Aurorus, Abomasnow, Alolan Ninetales, and Vanniluxe being avalible in SwSh.
Yeah, Eevee line is a bit overrated. That being said, they are not complete useless, competitively, Jolteon, Vaporeon, Flareon, had role in BW OU, Wolfe got 1st with Leafeon for VGC ladder, and Umbreon won Worlds of 2019. They are victims of powercreep.
To be fair, they have been more generous with Freeze-Dry recently, giving it to Glaceon, Articuno, Glalie over the last few Gens.
Ice & Rock:
Not sure if I mentioned my idea before, but if GF insists on making slow & defensive Rock- & Ice-types I think both need a special trait that, at a certain BST, they start becoming neutral and even resist certain Types. Which makes sense if you think about it, we all know different kind of rocks have different levels of strength and the same goes for ice depending on how it freezes & how thick the ice is. So I came up with the following "trait" (such as how Fire-types can't be burned, Ghosts can't be trapped, etc.) for both of them:
For example, I can totally understand Ice not hurting Fire as much. Fire-types would naturally have an aura of heat around them, or at least in battle, so any Ice-type move used against them will have its structued weakened before hitting the Fire-type (not to mention the Fire-type, in order to survive such extreme conditions, has natural heatproof skin/fur/feathers/etc.).
Not sure if I mentioned my idea before, but if GF insists on making slow & defensive Rock- & Ice-types I think both need a special trait that, at a certain BST, they start becoming neutral and even resist certain Types. Which makes sense if you think about it, we all know different kind of rocks have different levels of strength and the same goes for ice depending on how it freezes & how thick the ice is. So I came up with the following "trait" (such as how Fire-types can't be burned, Ghosts can't be trapped, etc.) for both of them:
- Ice-types receive neutral damage from Fighting & Rock moves if they have high Defense and Fire moves if they have high Special Defense. This is based on the following BST & base stats: BST 499 & below is 80-109 base, BST 500-599 is 95-119 base, BST 600+ is 110-129 base.
- Rock-types receive neutral damage from Fighting & Ground moves if they have high Defense and Grass & Water moves if they have high Special Defense. This is based on the same formula as the Ice-types above.
- Ice- and Rock-type receives resisted damage following the same rules as above if their defensive stats are super high based on the following BST & base stats: BST 499 & below is 110+ base, BST 500-599 is 120+ base, BST 600+ is 130+.
Well that's usually using a magical ice spell (or high tech cryo science) on plain ol' water. In Pokemon you're using an attacked infused with Ice energy to attack a creature infused with Water energy, not exactly the same. Since both the Ice and Water are magical in this case, I guess it neutralizes each other and they start working on normal physics where it takes very cold temperatures to freeze water. That said, I do feel Ice should do neutral damage because, well, it is still magical ice. I don't exactly see how the Ice move can be weakened before hitting the Pokemon or what natural biology the Water-type will have that would absorb the impact.
For example, I can totally understand Ice not hurting Fire as much. Fire-types would naturally have an aura of heat around them, or at least in battle, so any Ice-type move used against them will have its structued weakened before hitting the Fire-type (not to mention the Fire-type, in order to survive such extreme conditions, has natural heatproof skin/fur/feathers/etc.).
There's also that a generic wood fire (300-1000 Celsius) starts at about the same temperature difference from normal as the physical limit for how cold something can get (absolute zero is -273), and there are a lot of things hotter than that.
I feel like that's too drastic of a change to make it inherent of a type. Other inherent Type immunities exist because they're generally very easy to understand. For example, most Powder moves are very easy to iddentify, you know what is and isn't a Powder move, so when you see a Grass-Type you immediately know what it's immune to.
But with what you're suggesting, those inherent attributes are determined not simply by the type itself, or by a certain type of move (trapping moves, moves that can burn, etc), but instead by each Pokémon's specific stats, something that is completely impossible to see in-game outside of looking at your own Pokémon's summary screen. It's just a bit too cumbersome for most players to iddentify in practice, and goes against the simplicity of Pokémon's gameplay
One fix I’d do for Ice is to either give Ice types an increased chance to freeze opponents with the moves that can (akin to how Poison types get 100% accuracy with Toxic) or a Smog clone that inflicts Freeze. For the latter, I think even if it still had Smog’s accuracy and secondary-effect chances it’d still see some use because Freeze is just that good.
...granted some balancing might be in order to not make it broken.
Also give Ice at least one more resistance. I think it was King Feraligatr who made Ice resist Flying, which works for me.
...granted some balancing might be in order to not make it broken.
Also give Ice at least one more resistance. I think it was King Feraligatr who made Ice resist Flying, which works for me.