Unpopular opinions

So I know this is the unpopular opinions thread, but I think this is a hot take.

Defog is the worst HM in my opinion, simply because it has absolutely no reason to exist. It only serves to get rid of fog in the Lost Tower and like two routes, and the fog mechanic is just shit. It's not fun whatsoever, and it doesn't add much to the game in terms of worldbuilding or anything else. I'm glad that fog was "underutilized", because I don't want to see such an annoying, pointless mechanic ever again.
I totally understand where you're coming from.

Still, compare Defog to Flash and well... At least it tried to do something, y'know?

Edit: Does Fog even do something on the overworld in SwSh? Maybe instead of Acc Debuff, it could set up Misty Terrain and be much less annoying.

I wish the non gen-1 eeveelutions were dexited but forever. Hate those dudes
I need you to put some respecc on my boy Glaceon's name fam.

Shame it's yet another slow Ice-type. It could've turned out so much better... :psycry:
 
Shame it's yet another slow Ice-type. It could've turned out so much better... :psycry:
Hey, at least ONE slow ice type (Glastrier) managed to turn out an actual S tier pokemon in competitive.

Which can mean one of 2 things
A) GameFreaks finally accomplished to create a viable slow bulky ice type and will move to other archetype
B) GameFreaks finally accomplished to create a viable slow bulky ice type and, after having proved it works out, will only make slow bulky ice types
 
Despite people bitching about Gen 7 and 8 pulling this I still think it's XY that completely salted the earth in regards to the whole "Kanto Pandering" complaint. Even as someone who has always found that meme to be stupid and reactionary anyway, it's just ridiculous when you look back.
I thought it was generally agreed that XY began with the gen 1 pandering and is probably the worst offender of it besides LGPE. After all, relying on nostalgia fanservice after a divisive release (in this case, Gen 5) is a known tactic, ain't that right Star Wars?
 
Hey, at least ONE slow ice type (Glastrier) managed to turn out an actual S tier pokemon in competitive.

Which can mean one of 2 things
A) GameFreaks finally accomplished to create a viable slow bulky ice type and will move to other archetype
B) GameFreaks finally accomplished to create a viable slow bulky ice type and, after having proved it works out, will only make slow bulky ice types
Or

C) Game Freak will keep making slow, bulky Ice-types regardless of whether they work or not.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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With regards to the talk about slow bulky Ice-types, Glastrier has more or less shown to me what the real problem with Ice-types is. The issue with Ice-types isn't as simple as the fact that it's a glass cannon offensive type with Pokemon who have slower, bulky builds. The issue with Ice-types in general is that most of them are cursed with a combination of poorly distributed stats, shallow movepools, and more often than not mediocre abilities that don't do much to help them. Glastrier manages to be good despite being slow and bulky because it's clearly built with well-distributed stats that make it a Trick Room monster, being super slow, plus it has an excellent offensive movepool to compliment its Ice STAB, as well as a deadly ability in Chilling Neigh that boosts its power more and more with each kill. The bulk helps it because it can also use Weakness Policy to survive a super effective hit and boost its power even more. It manages to be a good Pokemon that uses its types strengths as an offensive type with a very unique type of stat spread for its type: making it a Trick Room monster.

Glaceon unfortunately suffers not only from being slow and Ice-type but also having the typical Eeveelution problem of having a shallow movepool. Most Eeveelutions barring Sylveon have less than stellar movepools that make them less than ideal competitively, making them not only mediocre but also outclassed by others of their type brethren. Many Ice-types in general have a similar problem, where they are oftentimes not only slow, but also not offensively strong enough (80-95 in offensive stats which is...not strong enough), have no way to boost their power, and lack coverage to make them potent offensively, combined with bulk that they cannot use well at all. The good Ice-types that are not Glastrier/Ice Rider Calyrex are Weavile, Mamoswine, Galarian Darmanitan, and the Kyurems. All of them have good offensive movepools, are fast *and* very offensively powerful with high offenses, and some even have priority in Ice Shard or a way to boost their power. Galarian Darmanitan even has a broken ability that pushes its damage output to the extreme plus Fire, Ground, Fighting, and Rock coverage. Good Ice-types work well because they have a good combination of stats, movepool, and abilities to make them strong offensive juggernauts.

Glastrier may be slow, but it uses that to its advantage. It's *so* slow that it outspeeds practically everything except Ferrothorn under Trick Room, has a good offensive movepool, and boosts its power with Weakness Policy, using its bulk to survive a super effective hit, can boost even more with Chilling Neigh and even Swords Dance, and in general has a way to really sweep. With how powerful Trick Room is in Doubles and VGC, Glastrier really shines there to be able to be an offensive powerhouse in its own right. Now unfortunately, Glastrier isn't as good in Singles because Trick Room is a less effective strategy there, but it's also not totally unusable because its sweeping prowess in Trick Room is still notable.

Many other Ice-types, on the other hand...are just bad Pokemon in general. Bad stats, bad movepools, and just have nothing useful to give.
 
It's funny, because to me this feels like the exact opposite of the Fairy type issue.

Aka, not that the fairy typing is magically overpowered, just GF has produced so many Fairy Types in last 2 gens that featured a combo of good stat distribution + movepool + potentially broken ability that people automatically assumed Fairy type is broken when the issue is the fairy pokemon design instead.
 

Pikachu315111

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The last games Eevee couldn't be obtained in were Black/White, and Game Freak has given it and its evolutions virtually nothing of note to make them feel fresh or interesting since then (unless you count Eevium Z, but how often did you use that over other Z-Crystals?).

Am I joke to you?

Look, I love the Eeveelutions as much as the next guy (especially Umbreon, Espeon, and Sylveon), but they seriously either need something awesome to incentivize me to train them again next gen or a break from the games altogether.
Yeah, thinking about it I don't think I ever really used an Eeveelution or seen many players use one aside from one playthrough from BrainScratchComms where they used an all Eeveelution team (but that was obviously the gimmick so does it count of using Eeveelution as a Type filler that GF seems to imply is their role?). At this point the only additional gimmick I can see GF giving the Eeveelutions is just going all in on their "Elemental" gimmick. Like there's a way they can learn every move of the Type they are (even if it doesn't make sense, we can just assume they create an elemental construct of what they need to do the attack), give them an Ability which makes them an "avatar" of their Type (boost power, increase accuracy, increase chance of secondary effect, weaken weaknesses, strengthen resistances, etc.). I wouldn't let players change their stats (they I do support GF reajusting some Eeveelution stats) so there would be some idea what the player has to work with.

And no, I don't want new regular Eeveelutions; they'll just get stale themselves in another couple of generations.
But we've haven't had a new Eeveelution since Gen 6...

So if the Gen 9 games follow the same formula that Sword/Shield did, I'd like for the Eeveelutions to be given the same treatment that the Legendary Birds got this generation - inactive during the base game, then reintroduced in the form of regional variants about a year later. I keep visualizing a regional Espeon based on a solar flare and an Umbreon based on an aurora (the latter's Shiny coloring in Gen 8 already kind of reminds me of the Northern Lights as is), just to give a couple of examples (and they'd be great ways to introduce Fire/Fairy and Ice/Poison respectively). Of course, the chance of Game Freak doing this is slim to none, but it's about the only way I can think of to make them feel exciting and fresh to see again.
Slim to none? More like 0% chance to never. While indeed there isn't anything saying a Pokemon with branched evolution needs to have all evos have a regional variant if one does, that does at least feel like GF's thinking as shown with the Galarian Slowpoke family. If one Eeveelution gets a regional variant, they all do and that's not a can of worms GF is going to open up. Heck, this is also a problem giving the Eeveelution super forms, they'd have to give each one it own separate form (though at least giving them all a Mega Evo would feel like its a one-and-done deal). It's probably why it was Eevee that got the Z-Move and Gigantamax, at this point it's easier to do special gimmicks with Eevee than all of the Eeveelutions.

I personally think another way they could keep the Eeveelutions "relevant" is if they did what they did in Alola with the "Eevee Users", have some kind of side quest involving a group of characters who all just so happen to use the Eeveelutions (and a team themed around what that Eeveelution is representing). I've myself come up with dozens of story ideas, from mundane to a few wild/crazy ideas, so I think it's definitely something fun that can be done with the Eeveelutions to give them some more involvement then just dex fillers.

And as for the Kanto starters in that hypothetical scenario... give them a break too, and when reintroducing them, don't give them any preferential treatment at all. One generation every 7 years or so of Charizard not being shoved in our faces at every opportunity isn't going to kill us, I promise.
Yes, rest the Kanto Starters. Heck, rest all the other region Starters, or at least save involvement of them for the post game. Main game should be about the new Starters of the region.

.....who am I kidding, at best we'll start to get unevolvable Cap Eevees on top of Cap Pikachus.
Nah, Cap Pikachu is because of Ash's Pikachu. If Eevee was to get unique variations (which I don't see the point of doing) it'll probably be given bows themed after its Eeveelutions (either for each one or in Gen groups so they'd only need to make 4 at this moment: Gen I, Gen II, Gen IV, & Gen VI).

this is one of the things that gets me about lgpe - the entire point of eevee is that it evolves! it's literally in its name. the dex classifies it as the "evolution pokemon". from gen 1, it's always been the mon with multiple evolutions, & i suspect that's a major part of what makes it so iconic. if you take away eevee's ability to evolve, you might as well have made let's go pokemon dunsparce or spinda or something.
I think a neat idea was if the Let's Go Eevee was a special Eevee that, instead of permanently evolving, you could evolve it forward, backwards, and sideways before battle; a reference to Red's Eevee in the Special/Adventure manga. True it'll only be able to evolve into Flareon, Vaporeon, & Jolteon, though you could still have the special moves that reference the other five.

This is gave me idea, what if the create a regional Eevee with regional Eevolution with those Physical type that we've been asking before? Things like Fighting type Umbreon, Poison type Vaporeon, and so on.
Just tried to do that and... yeah, a lot of my choices felt forced. It wouldn't work, and as Worldie mentioned the Galarian Bird Trio changes was the idea of playing with their names & theme (plus there was only three of them).

Also, why make Regional Variations of the Eeveelutions when they could just make new evolutions, ones who would be better made to match its Typing then trying to force an older Eeveelution's theme to being that Type?

Yes SWSH are not the best games in the world. Let's accept it and move on. I had some fun with them and while not great, I really wish people would stop beating a dead horse and bandwagoning because the topic is popular to hate on.

It's funny as SM were apparently rushed for the 20th anniversary yet in my opinion were better than SWSH (again, don't hate those games, I just think Gen 7 is better). I think the franchise just needs to take a few years off at this point to cool down, even though that will never happen because MERCHANDISING
We could accept it and move on... if GF would just learn their lesson and not rush games.

Gen VII likely was built atop the Gen VI engine, so that probably saved them a lot of development time and they were familiar with the engine. So with that thought, if they keep the Switch around long enough, Gen 9 will probably be on par with Gen 7 (and maybe 5 now thinking about it). Though hopefully with being closer to Nintendo HQ any new system they would have to work on would be a smoother transition...

But yes, I think by now many of us agree that Pokemon is not a series that does well with yearly releases, some games need some years in the development oven. Now I can see why for this period in time they did yearly releases due to circumstances outside of their control (though there was also bad planning & decisions on their part like not properly preparing for the 20th anniversary & deciding to want to release a new generation instead of Z version (which they were totally making, don't believe Masuda, he lies all the time)), but after Gen 8 there's really no need for the yearly releases so I'm hoping they do return taking some years between releases (heck, this does look to be their plan with the Sword & Shield release + DLC games).
 
I thought it was generally agreed that XY began with the gen 1 pandering and is probably the worst offender of it besides LGPE. After all, relying on nostalgia fanservice after a divisive release (in this case, Gen 5) is a known tactic, ain't that right Star Wars?
I feel X/Y celebrated other region too. I don't remember the Unova monkeys in Virdian forest. When Mega evolution was revealed, they showed off Pokemon from various regions. Valerie is basically a Kimono girl for Sylveon (rip Sinnoh eeveelutions). Absol and Gardevoir were your Rival's and the champions Mega and ORAS followed shortly afterwards. The only major, in your face, Kanto pandering to me were the Kalos starters not having Mega evolution while the Kanto ones do, and the Snorlax blocking the path. Sun and Moon just straight up treated Kanto like the only region in existence. I personally feel X/Y were better games at bringing elements from other regions better than SM, the anniversary games.
 
Finally caught up to everything in this thread! Had to do that because I wanted so say something short about some recept topics that appeared here and post a new unpopular opinion.

Fan pandering to Kanto/Gen 1
I have given my unpopular opinion on this before and it still stands, I think X/Y were more acceptable while S/M and Gen 7 are the absolute worst when it comes to this. I felt that S/M were a lot much more "in your face" about it. The word "Kanto" is spammed so much throughout the games, Alola forms are strictly Gen 1 only, plus many other major and minor instances of Kanto fan pandering. In comparison, I felt that the fan pandering in X/Y were mostly subtle and/or optional (I didn't even notice a lot of the pandering in X/Y until fans pointed it out on the internet after I had beaten the games). That said, I still think it was a problem in X/Y, but nowhere near as big as many fans make it out to be, or as big as it was in S/M. The Alola games were also worse because they repeated it after it had already been done in the previous generation, and they totally blew the 20th anniversary by focusing too much on Gen 1 instead of Gen 7 itself or having an equal focus on all old generations. Though the franchise still succeeded with the anniversary in some other areas such as the Mythical events and Pokémon Generations which focused on all generations. I really hope they will do a better job with the 25th anniversary next year, but I am not expecting it. As for S/S and Gen 8, I think they were better than Gen 7 on the whole (as in, less fan pandering), even if they still had some problems. Notable ones being Gmax Pokémon mostly being Gen 1 apart from Gen 8 (yes, Garbodor and Melmetal exist too, but those are only 2) and as was mentioned before, the issues of the three most popular Pokémon in Galar being Charizard, Gengar and Machamp. Still a big improvement from Gen 7 though.

Eevee and lutions
I think the Eevee line is overrated, but I still like them. I kind of want them to be in every game, but at the same time, they are getting a bit stale. Not sure what else to say here lol

And I have a new unpopular opinion as well. I have thought about posting it and decided that now it is finally time. After playing through the Crown Tundra, I have realized that I actually like Sword better than Sun & Moon. Despite dexit and other issues, I think I have enjoyed Sword more than S/M. When it comes to some of the things I consider important in Pokémon games, Sword does more right than S/M. The most notably are: better training spots (the ones in S/M were beyond awful), better Pokémon distribution, larger regional dex and more Pokémon obtainable on the whole discounting dexit (without transfer, S/S has over 400 even without the DLC, S/M has less than 400), better focus on the new Pokémon and the removal of SOS mechanics (they are one of my least favorite mechanics in the series and I hope they never return). Just to name some things. There's also the DLC. In comparison to a third/alternate version, the DLC builds upon the base game instead of making it obsolete like US/UM did do S/M. And since US/UM exists and they are better than S/M in almost every way that I find important, I have zero reason to ever return to S/M again (apart from my unfinished Battle Tree streak in Moon, but that's for a different story). That's not to say S/S are better in terms of everything. I really dislike the Battle Tower nerf, I prefer the Battle Tree any day, Poké Pelago is better than Poké Jobs and I prefer Refresh over Camp. But if I want any of these things... why should I play S/M (a.k.a. the D/P of Gen 7) when I have US/UM right there?

Also, regarding Gen 7 (and S/M in particular), I feel that my opinion of it isn't all that strong anymore. It is still my third favorite generation, but I don't really feel like I can appreciate it more after playing Sword, which is different compared to how it was in the past where I could appreciate Gen 5 a lot more after playing Gen 6, and Gen 6 a lot more after playing Gen 7. I guess this is because I find S/M to be obsolete, and I have no strong affection for US/UM in the same way I do for Gen 5 or X/Y, or even OR/AS. I also played them so much during 2017-2019 that I am still sort of burned out on them and have zero desire to return to them right now or anytime soon. Plus, I am getting burnt out on Pokémon on the whole and I think what I need from the series to continue being interested in it right now is something new, so going back to the old is basically the opposite. I still like US/UM and I think they are better than S/S, but I do not feel that way about S/M which I now think are worse than S/S. As of now, S/M are not only my least favorite main series games for the 3DS, but also my least favorite main series games in 3D overall. I just can't appreciate them much anymore because they fail so hard in many important aspects for me, and they are obsolete because of US/UM.
 
I'm not sure about that for most of the adventure, SM and USUM by extension celebrated all generations. We got cameos of Sina and Dexio from Gen 6, Grimsley and Colress from Gen 5, veterans like Red and Blue plus many important npcs in the Battle Tree, all villanous leaders coming back for the Rainbow Rocket ep, not just Giovanni. The only "KANTOOOOO!!!" moment that really made my eyes roll were the Alola forms being only kanto mons, I thought that was a wasted opportunity.

Gen 6 on the other hand, I don't even know where to start, the freaking english opening of the anime was Gotta catch em all again...
Speaking of Gen 6 and anime, I also grown to dislike Origins a bit. Pacing issues aside, the fact it was an ova to promote Gen 6 (if the Mega Charizard wasn't obvious enough) that consisted of the Kanto arc really showed the direction for this generation. Still like it but after Generations and Twilight Wings, this is the weakest one.

Also, regarding Gen 7 (and S/M in particular), I feel that my opinion of it isn't all that strong anymore. It is still my third favorite generation, but I don't really feel like I can appreciate it more after playing Sword, which is different compared to how it was in the past where I could appreciate Gen 5 a lot more after playing Gen 6, and Gen 6 a lot more after playing Gen 7. I guess this is because I find S/M to be obsolete, and I have no strong affection for US/UM in the same way I do for Gen 5 or X/Y, or even OR/AS. I also played them so much during 2017-2019 that I am still sort of burned out on them and have zero desire to return to them right now or anytime soon. Plus, I am getting burnt out on Pokémon on the whole and I think what I need from the series to continue being interested in it right now is something new, so going back to the old is basically the opposite. I still like US/UM and I think they are better than S/S, but I do not feel that way about S/M which I now think are worse than S/S. As of now, S/M are not only my least favorite main series games for the 3DS, but also my least favorite main series games in 3D overall. I just can't appreciate them much anymore because they fail so hard in many important aspects for me, and they are obsolete because of US/UM.
Funny that I had it opposite. I was aware of many of SM USUM shortcomings, but it's still my 3rd favorite generation and my favorite iteration of modern Pokemon. When Gen 8 was announced I just hoped that it would be better or as good as the alola games, I would be pleased with just that. And it didn't do it for me...I like SwSh, especially with the expansion pass released, but dang. For the first main series home console of the franchise, it should've been a lot more.
 
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Samtendo09

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For all the dispute of whether or not Kalos or Alola did the Kanto pandering worse... I'll make it easy for everyone here, it's both to various degrees.

While there is no denying that Gen 7 had incessant mentions of Kanto to the point it is getting tiresome, have Alolan forms arbitrarily locked to Gen 1 (despite very good execution overall, mind you) and signature Z-Moves being exclusive to Gen 1 mons alongside Gen 7 - not that they are really interesting or helpful aside of Alolan Raichu's or Eevee's - at least it did effort to have other regions mentioned.

Gen 6, on the other hand, overdid the marketing towards Gen 1 for supplemental materials aside from the Mega Evolution introduction, gave two Mega Evolutions for Charizard and Mewtwo without even bother explaining why was that the case, a supermajority of Kanto Pokémon catchable or obtainable in Kalos (might as well be Kanto's cousin), which Alola followed but to a lesser extent, and have Team Flare to have almost the same Pokémon roster as Team Rocket despite being themed after flares or colors.

It is very difficult to see who's the bigger guilty one of the two, but I'd lean for Alola for, despite being released for the 20th anniversary, ends up giving too much attention to Kanto instead of making the Alola Pokémon stand out more.

Nothing is a bigger culprit than the Johto games though. While it is a sequel to the Kanto games, that does not excuse shoving almost every Gen 2 Pokémon being either excessively rare, somehow difficult to evolve, is part of the annoying happiness evolution method, Team Rocket being regressed and not bothered to use more Pokémon than Zubat, Muk and Koffing, pushed a few Johto mons to Kanto post-game, giving too many of them embarrassingly poor viability, or giving them lackluster design. As well as almost every Trainer to use exclusively Gen 1 Pokémon. Even the remakes had the mistake of leaving that huge flaw infecting the Johto region as a whole.
 
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You know, for an organization whose focus was capturing the most rare and powerful Pokemon, Team Rocket Grunts did a poor job showing it. Or maybe the rare mons only were for the use of the boss and admins, like Kangaskhan and Murkrow. Although I remember there were a few grunts that used Drowzee/Hypno and even Cubone (which tied to the Pokemon Tower invasion).

I think the Aether Foundation employees were the only ones that avoided this issue. You only confront them for one dungeon but they show a wide variety of mons, from man mades like Magnemite and Porygon lines to exotic species from various parts of Alola, which ties into their job as caretakers of the Pokemon in need. Even the employees in the Battle Tree, the Pokemon variety they can use is HUGE compared to other trainers there.
 

earl

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This is probably the hottest take in the entire thread (I think):

Clefable is the competitive equivalent of hot garbage. I mean, it WORKS, yeah, but only because of its abilities and type. If you put it back to Normal type and just Cute Charm, it would go down to ZU so fast it would outspeed+6 Timid Eleki (probably not that fast, but you get the point.)
I’d say it’s moreso the ability and movepool- fairy type clefable is obviously amazing, but gen 4 clefable is also a competitive juggernaut
 
The greatest problem that I see with the Kanto pandering / references is that X/Y are pretty boring games themselves, and the pandering does not make it more interesting . When I first tried to play through Y in 2013, I gave up and did not touch the game until this year. The story is not interesting, the gyms (while a little challenging at first) get easier and easier as the game progresses. The late game has a nice level curve, but you have to slog through 2/3 of the game to get to it. I gave up my first run in Lumiose City when I was blowing through the gym with Mega Blastoise, thinking that "this is boring as hell, far too easy, and why am I still playing?????" Showing me Kanto pokemon did not help, it just made it feel less and less interesting.

All the good ol' Pokémon did not help at all, I just felt that I was really playing with only the pokemon you are given (starter, Kanto mega starter, mega lucario), not exploring the region and finding what's new. The game essentially tells you "here you go, use this" three times. Yeah, you can just not use those Pokemon, but when the game essentially telling you that you should use this, it should not make the game completely boring. OR/AS does something similar with the Mega Latias/Latios, but you are given a unique benefit for using it, soaring in the sky. For something that the game wants me to use, there is more benefit than the pokemon itself. X/Y's benefit to the Kanto starters is "now you have a Pokémon that can mega evolve," but that would not be a problem if most of the mega stones were not locked behind the post-game. Sure, I can finally use Absol in a reasonable point in the story post the physical/special split, but wait, there's Mega Absol! Cool, how do I get it? wait, i got to wait that long..... why bother. If you want to use mega evolution, there are 9 pokemon (8 not counting torchic event) that you can access that can do so before beating the game. 3 are Kanto starters. It's lame.

Coming back to Y this year, I found it more interesting that I saw my first time playing, but so much of the game falls flat. There is so much in the game that could be good and interesting, but it is not executed well. Looking at X/Y there was not much I want to come back to, no story I want to re-experience or battles to replay for the challenge / fun (the routes / cities are cool though). There is more that entices me to replay Sun because there is more of a game behind it. I have not played US/UM yet, but I'm actually looking forward to it because there is more reason to go back to Alola. The Kanto pandering / references are there, but Sun and Moon are interesting games in and of themselves, and it is less of a problem there.

-God damn story setpieces being ripped from RBY (the evil team raiding an industrial complex where Pokeballs are created to obtain a Master Ball, as well as the first encounter with them being in a cave where at the end you choose between 1 of 2 regional fossils)
This makes the Kanto pandering / references more notable in hindsight, because why would I want to touch X/Y again when I could .... play a Kanto game. If I want to replay Kanto but with mega evolutions, Lets Go Eevee is right there waiting for me.
 

Pikachu315111

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Clefable is the competitive equivalent of hot garbage. I mean, it WORKS, yeah, but only because of its abilities and type. If you put it back to Normal type and just Cute Charm, it would go down to ZU so fast it would outspeed+6 Timid Eleki (probably not that fast, but you get the point.)
You could say that about most if not all Pokemon. Three of the biggest traits for a Pokemon are Stats, Type, and Ability and generally all need to work together for a Pokemon to be "good", or at least two with the third being decent/non-harmful.

I'm not a competitive player, but I'm sure if you asked a competitive player to take a good Pokemon and change either its Type or Ability (let alone Type & Ability) to make it not good they'll probably be able to ramble a few off the top of their heads (and they'll probably also be able to do the opposite, take a bad Pokemon and change its Type or/and Ability to make it good).
 
You could say that about most if not all Pokemon. Three of the biggest traits for a Pokemon are Stats, Type, and Ability and generally all need to work together for a Pokemon to be "good", or at least two with the third being decent/non-harmful.

I'm not a competitive player, but I'm sure if you asked a competitive player to take a good Pokemon and change either its Type or Ability (let alone Type & Ability) to make it not good they'll probably be able to ramble a few off the top of their heads (and they'll probably also be able to do the opposite, take a bad Pokemon and change its Type or/and Ability to make it good).
While that is true, Clefable is an especially puzzling case because none of its stats are above 100 and yet it manages to be S-tier in OU and consistently in the top 3 in usage.
 
This is probably the hottest take in the entire thread (I think):

Clefable is the competitive equivalent of hot garbage. I mean, it WORKS, yeah, but only because of its abilities and type. If you put it back to Normal type and just Cute Charm, it would go down to ZU so fast it would outspeed+6 Timid Eleki (probably not that fast, but you get the point.)
If anything, it's the perfect example of how a good typing, ability and movepool can determine the viability of a Pokemon. Talonflame's case was interesting: stat wise it was fast but not too strong in the Attack or Defense department, typing is the dreaded 4x weak to Rocks, it was its ability that allowed it to shine with its dreaded 120 bp Brave Bird or even Acrobatics, as well as abusing its setup moves. Once Gale Wings was nerfed the next gen, down goes Talonflame, never to see the light of OU ever again.
 
I dont really understand the argument that gen 7 is even as close as gen 6 and 8 with kanto pandering. Yeah the alolan forms are all kanto pokemon, which is pretty fucking boring, and charizard being the fly hm is stale but honestly thats the most annoying thing i can think of. I completly forgot that exclusive z moves existed, and most of the gen 1 ones you need to go out of your way to do some sidequest or event to get it.
All totems are alolan pokemon, most (i think its all, but im not sure) captain, elite four and champion aces are alolan, their teams often have other gen pokemon than just 7 and 1 (love nosepass bein one of olivias mons), they brought a bunch of other gen characters, and even the rainbow rocket plot included all gens, when they could easily just have made it an alternative team rocket.


Gen 6 forces you to get a kanto starter with its mega, almost designed to overshadow your actual new starter (if mega lucario didnt overshadow BOTH lol) and has stuff like copying viridian forest and the psychic gym layout from gen 1, while gen 8 gives 3 of its gym leaders gmax kanto aces, makes the champions ace a gen 1 pokemon instead of actually making it one of the new gens (and of course its charizard), later gives your own charizard, makes 3 of the new dlc legendaries galar forms of kanto legendaries, and canonically has its most popular pokemon of the region be literal gen 1 dudes.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
The greatest problem that I see with the Kanto pandering / references is that X/Y are pretty boring games themselves, and the pandering does not make it more interesting . When I first tried to play through Y in 2013, I gave up and did not touch the game until this year. The story is not interesting, the gyms (while a little challenging at first) get easier and easier as the game progresses. The late game has a nice level curve, but you have to slog through 2/3 of the game to get to it. I gave up my first run in Lumiose City when I was blowing through the gym with Mega Blastoise, thinking that "this is boring as hell, far too easy, and why am I still playing?????" Showing me Kanto pokemon did not help, it just made it feel less and less interesting.

All the good ol' Pokémon did not help at all, I just felt that I was really playing with only the pokemon you are given (starter, Kanto mega starter, mega lucario), not exploring the region and finding what's new. The game essentially tells you "here you go, use this" three times. Yeah, you can just not use those Pokemon, but when the game essentially telling you that you should use this, it should not make the game completely boring. OR/AS does something similar with the Mega Latias/Latios, but you are given a unique benefit for using it, soaring in the sky. For something that the game wants me to use, there is more benefit than the pokemon itself. X/Y's benefit to the Kanto starters is "now you have a Pokémon that can mega evolve," but that would not be a problem if most of the mega stones were not locked behind the post-game. Sure, I can finally use Absol in a reasonable point in the story post the physical/special split, but wait, there's Mega Absol! Cool, how do I get it? wait, i got to wait that long..... why bother. If you want to use mega evolution, there are 9 pokemon (8 not counting torchic event) that you can access that can do so before beating the game. 3 are Kanto starters. It's lame.

Coming back to Y this year, I found it more interesting that I saw my first time playing, but so much of the game falls flat. There is so much in the game that could be good and interesting, but it is not executed well. Looking at X/Y there was not much I want to come back to, no story I want to re-experience or battles to replay for the challenge / fun (the routes / cities are cool though). There is more that entices me to replay Sun because there is more of a game behind it. I have not played US/UM yet, but I'm actually looking forward to it because there is more reason to go back to Alola. The Kanto pandering / references are there, but Sun and Moon are interesting games in and of themselves, and it is less of a problem there.


This makes the Kanto pandering / references more notable in hindsight, because why would I want to touch X/Y again when I could .... play a Kanto game. If I want to replay Kanto but with mega evolutions, Lets Go Eevee is right there waiting for me.
Like I alluded to in my post that kicked off this conversation, one of XY's major problems is that it was clearly trying way too hard to make up for how visceral the reaction to the BW1 dex was to the point it has the exact opposite problem: The meager new Pokemon selection is drowned out by the massive swath of returning classics to the point where there's really no incentive to use them. For example, did you know that unless you picked Greninja you cannot get a Kalos-original Surf user before the point you are required to use it? Yeah, it's that bad, only beaten out by OG DP and all of Gen 2 in terms of how bad it is at advertising the new Pokemon. Coupled with everything else and it's such a bloody bland game despite paradoxically introducing iconic things like Mega Evolution, it really is the epitome of Pokemon on autopilot with little to stand out with other than some mild French flavor
 
actually tho, I always forget that Gogoat has such weirdly high stats, including near-identical 100/97 offenses and high 123/81 special bulk, despite seeming (to me at least) like the kind of Pokémon that’d have high Attack/Defense and lower special stats. Surf is a legitimately good coverage move for it and somehow that doesn’t sit right with me haha
I assume they meant to say Water-type Surf user, and it’s definitely a strange choice that despite receiving the Coastal Dex three towns prior we don’t get to catch any Kalos-native Water Pokémon until after we get Surf, but yeah you’re right

EDIT: wait what about Binacle
 
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