Resource Ubers Simple Questions, Simple Answers v2

The old thread was getting super dated so here's a version 2 for a fresh feeling.

Welcome to the SQSA! The purpose of this thread is to act as the main place to ask questions that could be answered in a single post. Common topics include:

- What is the ideal <item/nature/moveset/Pokemon> for my Pokemon or team?
- How is the viability of a Pokemon in the metagame?

And for some quick guidelines:

- Discussing the potential of an Ubers in OU is strictly prohibited. The viability of a Pokemon in Ubers has no relevance to its potential in OU.
- Topics around suspect or ban discussions are ideally kept to threads open for wide range discussion on potential suspect testing. If a suspect is currently running, our live chat areas are a better zone to ask and discuss these things.
- The answer may be present on our Smogon Dex, where you can find analyses of the Pokemon in our tier.
- This is not the ideal place to ask questions related to in-game teams or metagames. This forum is primarily for discussion of Smogon's Ubers metagame. Cartridge based metagames can be discussed in the Cartridge Formats section, while in-game play can be discussed in Orange Islands. Make sure to navigate to the ideal threads when visiting these subforums!

Community members are encouraged to help each other out here with answering new questions!
 
Guess I'll ask the first question since this is something I literally just thought of. If Zygarde with Power Construct is holding a Berry that recovers HP, would the Ability or Berry activate first?
 
And in addition to that, is there any other reason why Groudon's Viability is D other than the existence of Primal Groudon? Like what was Groudon's viability before Pdon, and in addition, Pokemon like Mega Chomp and Mega Ttar are considered OU by technicality, which implies the Mega Evolution restricts the mon's individual ability. I see Pdon and Groudon in a similar situation, except Pdon has well earned it's status. Groudon doesn't deserve to be in a similar situation to Mega Chomp. I would like to see the true consideration for Groudon and to understand why it is deemed unviable.
 
Which Yveltal wins against another Yveltal if both only use Oblivion wing?
xd
The matchup will depend on Speed investment and item. According to my experience, slower Yveltal typically wins 1v1 but a faster one may win depending on its item.
And in addition to that, is there any other reason why Groudon's Viability is D other than the existence of Primal Groudon? Like what was Groudon's viability before Pdon, and in addition, Pokemon like Mega Chomp and Mega Ttar are considered OU by technicality, which implies the Mega Evolution restricts the mon's individual ability. I see Pdon and Groudon in a similar situation, except Pdon has well earned it's status. Groudon doesn't deserve to be in a similar situation to Mega Chomp. I would like to see the true consideration for Groudon and to understand why it is deemed unviable.
USM Primal Groudon Analysis said:
  • Base forme Groudon has a couple of options such as a physically defensive set, a Choice Band set, or a Swords Dance set utilizing a Z-Move. However, the opportunity cost of skipping Primal Groudon for this is extremely high, so it should never see serious use.
 

Ropalme1914

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Which Yveltal wins against another Yveltal if both only use Oblivion wing?
xd
idk if it's serious, but well, it depends on the set, and even if it is the same set, Speed ties will determine which Yveltal wins, there's no way to say which one is going to win from the start (tho some sets do have the advantage over the others). Like DMDW said, the slower usually, but if this is any help, Specs has a slightly advantage over LO, Scarf most of the time loses to the other sets since it is faster and doesn't deal as much damage (unless it gets a crit), and Metronome probably wins against the others due to its increasing damage.

And in addition to that, is there any other reason why Groudon's Viability is D other than the existence of Primal Groudon? Like what was Groudon's viability before Pdon, and in addition, Pokemon like Mega Chomp and Mega Ttar are considered OU by technicality, which implies the Mega Evolution restricts the mon's individual ability. I see Pdon and Groudon in a similar situation, except Pdon has well earned it's status. Groudon doesn't deserve to be in a similar situation to Mega Chomp. I would like to see the true consideration for Groudon and to understand why it is deemed unviable.
Some people do say that Groudon could have a small niche over Primal Groudon due to its ability to run Z-Crystals and lack of a Ground weakness, but overall, the opportunnity cost of not using Primal Groudon is simply too high.
 
"The cost of not running Pdon"
Let's see... Grass weakness hmmmm that means... oh wait, only threat is Grasseus... who uses that when serious?
Water weakness... Kyogre and Porge and Waterceus? Pdon can lose to those anyways, also Groudon running Twave removes them from the competition if played correctly, also Since when does Pdon stay in for those?
Desolate Land + Harsh Sun removing water weakness... Those are the only pokemon that run water moves...
One less pokemon you have to choose an item for... I guess that's helpful if you are only playing for fun or on time limit.
+20 defense to an already high defense, which is higher than pretty much every respectable tank/stall mon with the exception of Megabro
+30 Attack.. it's base atk is only 10 lower than mega blaziken, the same as Zekrom, same as Rayquaza which already does a heavy chunk of damage. It also gets swords dance... Just because it's more powerful at a glance doesn't mean it's necessarily better.
90 base speed and rock polish so you can sweep. Groudon has that too...
A Ground weakness so you can get OHKO-ed by a +2 Ultra Necrozma or every Primal Groudon other than mixed one shots you so you better hope you are faster or mixed. Or you could just be mono ground type and survive a +2 Physical Unecro and either Paralyze it or deal massive damage to it to revenge kill and you can just survive Primal Groudon to one shot it.
A reliability on fire type moves because it's boosted... Although this one is pretty good to have, games shouldn't be about sheer force or OHKOing to win, but instead should have strategy and be fun for both players. Not saying this is busted, but it makes a norm even though last I checked, a fire type 2.25x damage bonus doesn't do anything but help against flying types and scares Ferrothorn. But wait, didn't people used to use Stone Edge back in the old days?
A switch-in to Xerneas. This is actually a benefit, but from what I have seen, just because something checks a mon doesn't make it better or more viable than another. Also Necrozma Dusk Mane exists.
There is more to cover but.. I think you got the gist.
Explain to me why is the opportunity too great that it makes Groudon unviable because it doesn't compare to another pokemon. If Pdon didn't exist, it would be considered viable but not as much as it would be now.
 
Issue with Groudon is double fold; Primal Groudon is the best Pokemon in the metagame and an auto-include on every build. (cause reasons) This means that a hypothetical build where having a Primal Groudon isn’t ideal, is already something quite niche. In addition to this already small niche structure, you also have to have a justification for why a regular Groudon would be ideal. Even in a vacuum, base Groudon doesn’t fulfil a significant role that could possibly justify it’s inclusion.


That said, base Groudon is one of those shitmons where it’s good enough to do something if you want to force it to work. You are just objectively crippling your team in order to do so.
 

byulharang

formerly Holy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
Well first of all Pdon can come out on water moves while regular Groudon cannot as well as being able to force Pogre, Kyogre and switch into Palkias hydro pump etc. If you run Groudon you're pretty much forced to run Ferrothorn or something to soak up water attacks when you could just run Pdon. The boost in defense, attack and spa is also a major plus because you lose 100 bst just to run something like band/sd z move/defensive which is very niche. Also you talk about games shouldn't be about sheer force but that is kinda what Pdon is and you're overlooking the whole fire type damage boost. The major boost in power with moves like eruption, fire blast, overheat, fire punch and lava plume is another reason why you would use it over Groudon. Pdon does like everything Groudon can but better. The only thing I can see Groudon being useful for is beating Pdon in a 1v1 maybe but that one niche isnt really worth not running Pdon and using something more reliable like arceus ground for Pdon or something.
 
You don't base a Pokemon's viability based on another Pokemon. That is like saying Pichu isn't good because Pikachu is better(In SSBU).
 

Cam

The Colby Covington Of Smogon
is a Tiering Contributoris a defending SCL Champion
You don't base a Pokemon's viability based on another Pokemon. That is like saying Pichu isn't good because Pikachu is better(In SSBU).
This is true but since species clause deems them as the same pokemon you have to sacrifice using Pdon if you want to use groudon and thats a rather large sacrifice for a lot of teams so it actually does impact the viability of the pokemon because you can't run it alongside its counterpart which is superior in 90% of ways.
 
You don't base a Pokemon's viability based on another Pokemon. That is like saying Pichu isn't good because Pikachu is better(In SSBU).
Except this isn't the same scenario because pichu in ssbu is stronger and kills far earlier than pikachu and is also faster in air? (also pichu is better than pika but w/e)

Regular groudon's advantages over pdon are so miniscule that they aren't worth considering most of the time, especially with the fact that pdon is the best mon in ubers, and fits well on almost every build.
 

Felixx

I'm back.
Is Arceus-Water a viable Calm Mind user or is it far too outclassed by other Arceus-formes such as Ground and Dark?
 
What is the best Darkrai set in Ubers atm, and what are some good partners? I haven't played Ubers since DPP so I was surprised to see Darkrai so low in the VRs.
 
What is the best Darkrai set in Ubers atm, and what are some good partners? I haven't played Ubers since DPP so I was surprised to see Darkrai so low in the VRs.
As the above post says, Z-Hypnosis is a possibility to evade getting revenge killed by Choice Scarf Xerneas and avoid Speed tying with Marshadow but the smogdex suggests Life Orb + Nasty Plot set with Thunder to fare better against Ho-Oh and Primal Kyogre or Sludge Bomb to punish Fairy-types. Much like what the linked page mentions, Darkrai will need offensive support to viably function. I would personally look for ways to cover Magearna and other special walls like Blissey as well.

Edit: Dark Void took a huge nerf on accuracy from SM and onward (80% -> 50%), and contributed to the end of Darkrai's prominence.
 
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As the above post says, Z-Hypnosis is a possibility to evade getting revenge killed by Choice Scarf Xerneas and avoid Speed tying with Marshadow but the smogdex suggests Life Orb + Nasty Plot set with Thunder to fare better against Ho-Oh and Primal Kyogre or Sludge Bomb to punish Fairy-types. Much like what the linked page mentions, Darkrai will need offensive support to viably function. I would personally look for ways to cover Magearna and other special walls like Blissey as well.

Edit: Dark Void took a huge nerf on accuracy from SM and onward (80% -> 50%), and this ended Darkrai's prominence.
I prefer my set because 1. DPulse 2HKOs Pogre and could flinch it, or you can try to put it to sleep. 2. Sludge Bomb OHKOs Xerneas 3. Nothing can outspeed
 
"The cost of not running Pdon"
Let's see... Grass weakness hmmmm that means... oh wait, only threat is Grasseus... who uses that when serious?
Water weakness... Kyogre and Porge and Waterceus? Pdon can lose to those anyways, also Groudon running Twave removes them from the competition if played correctly, also Since when does Pdon stay in for those?
Desolate Land + Harsh Sun removing water weakness... Those are the only pokemon that run water moves...
One less pokemon you have to choose an item for... I guess that's helpful if you are only playing for fun or on time limit.
+20 defense to an already high defense, which is higher than pretty much every respectable tank/stall mon with the exception of Megabro
+30 Attack.. it's base atk is only 10 lower than mega blaziken, the same as Zekrom, same as Rayquaza which already does a heavy chunk of damage. It also gets swords dance... Just because it's more powerful at a glance doesn't mean it's necessarily better.
90 base speed and rock polish so you can sweep. Groudon has that too...
A Ground weakness so you can get OHKO-ed by a +2 Ultra Necrozma or every Primal Groudon other than mixed one shots you so you better hope you are faster or mixed. Or you could just be mono ground type and survive a +2 Physical Unecro and either Paralyze it or deal massive damage to it to revenge kill and you can just survive Primal Groudon to one shot it.
A reliability on fire type moves because it's boosted... Although this one is pretty good to have, games shouldn't be about sheer force or OHKOing to win, but instead should have strategy and be fun for both players. Not saying this is busted, but it makes a norm even though last I checked, a fire type 2.25x damage bonus doesn't do anything but help against flying types and scares Ferrothorn. But wait, didn't people used to use Stone Edge back in the old days?
A switch-in to Xerneas. This is actually a benefit, but from what I have seen, just because something checks a mon doesn't make it better or more viable than another. Also Necrozma Dusk Mane exists.
There is more to cover but.. I think you got the gist.
Explain to me why is the opportunity too great that it makes Groudon unviable because it doesn't compare to another pokemon. If Pdon didn't exist, it would be considered viable but not as much as it would be now.
See, the problem with Groudon isn't that you're running Groudon. The problem with Groudon is that you aren't running Primal Groudon, who leverages an absurdly good typing with an absurdly good ability and its absurdly good offensive stats and its absurdly good physical bulk and absurdly good movepool.

If Primals didn't exist Groudon would most likely still be a high or top-tier threat and Kyogre would most likely be one of the kings of Ubers again, but that Ground/Fire typing paired with its 180/150 offenses, its Thunder Wave and Will-o-Wisp immunities, and its Water pseudo-immunity just allow it to double-down on almost everything Groudon is good barring vanilla Groudon's Dragonium set (which I'll admit is actually pretty good and should push it to C- or C at the very least, alongside vanilla Kyogre) while giving it a laundry list of new options that vanilla Groudon couldn't even dream of:

Want to blow your opponents back with a STAB, sun-boosted Fire Blast, Overheat, or even Eruption coming off of a nutty base 150 SpA stat? You can do that.

Want to clap Mega Salamence and a weakened Zygarde with HP Ice without having to blow a Z-move? You can do that now, and you don't give a shit about Intimidate from pre-Mega Salamence and you hit both on their weaker defensive stat to boot.

Want to use that superior typing and bulk to spread status or increase your setup opportunities tenfold? You can do that.

Want to hit harder than a standard vanilla Groudon with your physical sets, scoring several crucial OHKOs and 2HKOs? You can do that.

Want to run a double-dance set with your amazing dual STABs? You can do that since Ground/Fire is only resisted by a handful of notable Ubers.

Want to run a mixed set, which vanilla Groudon couldn't even hope to do? You can do that.

Want to actually check Xerneas instead of getting blown up by it? You can do that, and you can do that even better when you pair it with Dusk Mane.

Granted, you do get OHKOed and 2HKOed by a bunch of Earthquakes flying around in this tier. But why do you you think everything and its mother is packing a Ground type move in the first place? It's not like the mon with 80% usage and one of its best partners seen on almost all team archetypes at over 50% usage are both weak to Ground or anything, right?

You're seriously undervaluing Primal Groudon's effectiveness in this meta. There's a reason why Kyogre went from top 5 in usage to fringe viability the instant OR/AS was released. There's a reason why it has 80% usage. There's a reason why it has a set for literally every occasion and is held back only by what the rest of the team cannot cover for it. There's a reason why it has its own subrank dedicated solely to it. And there's a reason why that'll probably never change for at least the next two generations. Having something with that much sheer power, defensive utility, and unparalleled versatility up its sleeve on its own is fucking incredible, and the icing on the cake and why it's just so much better than regular Groudon is because it neither takes up a Mega slot or a Z-move slot to do so. You can still have your Ultra Necrozma or Z-Move Dusk Mane, Mega Diancie/Mega Gengar/Mega Mence/Mega Lucario, and Primal Groudon on a single team, and there is virtually nothing more terrifying than an offensive backbone of that caliber.
 
See, the problem with Groudon isn't that you're running Groudon. The problem with Groudon is that you aren't running Primal Groudon, who leverages an absurdly good typing with an absurdly good ability and its absurdly good offensive stats and its absurdly good physical bulk and absurdly good movepool.

If Primals didn't exist Groudon would most likely still be a high or top-tier threat and Kyogre would most likely be one of the kings of Ubers again, but that Ground/Fire typing paired with its 180/150 offenses, its Thunder Wave and Will-o-Wisp immunities, and its Water pseudo-immunity just allow it to double-down on almost everything Groudon is good barring vanilla Groudon's Dragonium set (which I'll admit is actually pretty good and should push it to C- or C at the very least, alongside vanilla Kyogre) while giving it a laundry list of new options that vanilla Groudon couldn't even dream of:

Want to blow your opponents back with a STAB, sun-boosted Fire Blast, Overheat, or even Eruption coming off of a nutty base 150 SpA stat? You can do that.

Want to clap Mega Salamence and a weakened Zygarde with HP Ice without having to blow a Z-move? You can do that now, and you don't give a shit about Intimidate from pre-Mega Salamence and you hit both on their weaker defensive stat to boot.

Want to use that superior typing and bulk to spread status or increase your setup opportunities tenfold? You can do that.

Want to hit harder than a standard vanilla Groudon with your physical sets, scoring several crucial OHKOs and 2HKOs? You can do that.

Want to run a double-dance set with your amazing dual STABs? You can do that since Ground/Fire is only resisted by a handful of notable Ubers.

Want to run a mixed set, which vanilla Groudon couldn't even hope to do? You can do that.

Want to actually check Xerneas instead of getting blown up by it? You can do that, and you can do that even better when you pair it with Dusk Mane.

Granted, you do get OHKOed and 2HKOed by a bunch of Earthquakes flying around in this tier. But why do you you think everything and its mother is packing a Ground type move in the first place? It's not like the mon with 80% usage and one of its best partners seen on almost all team archetypes at over 50% usage are both weak to Ground or anything, right?

You're seriously undervaluing Primal Groudon's effectiveness in this meta. There's a reason why Kyogre went from top 5 in usage to fringe viability the instant OR/AS was released. There's a reason why it has 80% usage. There's a reason why it has a set for literally every occasion and is held back only by what the rest of the team cannot cover for it. There's a reason why it has its own subrank dedicated solely to it. And there's a reason why that'll probably never change for at least the next two generations. Having something with that much sheer power, defensive utility, and unparalleled versatility up its sleeve on its own is fucking incredible, and the icing on the cake and why it's just so much better than regular Groudon is because it neither takes up a Mega slot or a Z-move slot to do so. You can still have your Ultra Necrozma or Z-Move Dusk Mane, Mega Diancie/Mega Gengar/Mega Mence/Mega Lucario, and Primal Groudon on a single team, and there is virtually nothing more terrifying than an offensive backbone of that caliber.
I am not undervaluing Primal Groudon, but I am trying to accommodate for a Pokemon that is being overshadowed and being viewed as obsolete because of it. I understand Primal Groudon's strengths and dominance in the game clearly, as I didn't suggest for the number one viable Pokemon in Ubers to drop in viability. I am simply trying to give Groudon the acknowledgement it deserves because it has some quirks that Primal Groudon does not. But I don't consider how a Pokemon changes a metagame makes it viable, because that doesn't make it viable. Primal Groudon is more valuable than Groudon which is indisputable, but if it is seen as a viable meta, the metagame may become more interesting and shift a decent amount. But I need to point out that viable does not equal value, but if I am correct, the capability it has in the meta. In the current meta, Groudon has probably the most viability it can have Gen 7+.

[Edit: Mega Lucario? If you want to make a point, wouldn't you say Mega Gyarados instead? And Ultra Necrozma doesn't have to actually use it's Z-Crystal other than for Ultra Burst, which is why 2 Z-moves on a team is a niche. Also, the same goes for Groudon, it doesn't take a mega slot nor a Z-move(I don't run Z-Groudon because my set seems a bit better to me). Notice: Groudon and Primal Groudon has the same move if you haven't noticed yet you still list double dance as an advantage. HP Ice Primal Groudon OHKOs Zygarde if the Zygarde set is standard as well.]
 
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Cam

The Colby Covington Of Smogon
is a Tiering Contributoris a defending SCL Champion
Is regular Kyogre + Dugtrio to kill Pdon a thing?
It has been an idea but its not really a "thing" its not that common. Dugtrio has to run adamant z move to kill pdon and often isn't that useful in games. Generally you're best off wittling the pdon with ogre ice beam + rocks. Or by pressuring it by forcing it to come in on xern moonblasts or toxic wearing it down.
 

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