Theorymon Sessions

[Giroud]

It's tough. Alomamola almost keeps the balance in NU, but it is overpowered, it's the last thing in this tier stopping it from becoming completely offense.

 

[ryan]

I don't really think that it would be that big of a deal if NU lost Alomomola. What we would mainly be losing is the premier Wish-passer in the tier. This, to me, is what Alomomola succeeds the most in doing—not walling the entire tier.

Of course, since many people use Alomomola as a wall first and a Wish-passer second, they would have to adjust to its loss. The thing about the lack of Alomomola is that there are plenty of other physical tanks and walls in the tier that play such a role more effectively as it is. For example, while Misdreavus may not being able to take hits as well as Alomomola can, it has a lot of other things going for it. Its typing is the main thing; unlike Alomomola, which relies more on its bulk than its typing, Misdreavus has cool resistances and immunities to Normal-, Fighting-, and Bug-type attacks. Misdreavus also has access to Will-O-Wisp, one of the best—if not THE best—status moves in NU. Thanks to its great Speed stat for a tank, Misdreavus can also make good use of Taunt, keeping it from being the total set-up bait that Alomomola is and allowing it to single-handedly break down many stall teams in the tier. Finally, thanks to Levitate, Spikes and Toxic Spikes are both completely ineffective against Misdreavus. While Alomomola may have Regenerator to compensate a bit for Spikes, it is still very vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, and normal Spikes can also turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs, making it difficult for it to switch in.

Of course, I've already mentioned that Alomomola's main niche is in passing enormous Wishes. This means that should you care to use Wish, you would need to search elsewhere for it. On the physically defensive side, you have Leafeon, as well as a very underrated threat in Shelgon. Then on the specially defensive side, Audino and Lickilicky are both great users of the move.

By no means would NU become helpless if Alomomola were to go up to RU. To be honest, I haven't seen an Alomomola for ages when playing in tournaments outside of when I have used it myself alongside Audino. It's a great Pokemon, but it does have its drawbacks, just like any other Pokemon. However, it is by no means the backbone for defense in NU, and we'd do fine without it.

 

[Punchshroom]

Of course, I've already mentioned that Alomomola's main niche is in passing enormous Wishes. This means that should you care to use Wish, you would need to search elsewhere for it. On the physically defensive side, you have Leafeon, as well as a very underrated threat in Sheldon. Then on the specially defensive side, Audino and Lickilicky are both great users of the move.

Um, what was that supposed to be? Shieldon??

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Shelgon I presume

I don't think many physical attackers would rise if Alo rises, because more physical defensive mons and wish passers would rise. Just like how Skuntank rose when Absol left the tier

 

[skylight]

Just wanna quickly bring up something that I'm surprised doesn't actually already exist.

What if Ludicolo had Leaf Storm?
Flavour-wise it makes sense because Eggy can so why not? With something like Leaf Storm and HPump in rain Ludi could become a huge killer with Specs in a full rain team, however outside of rain-dedicated teams would Leaf Storm find usage over Giga Drain? How could this enhance Ludicolo? Discuss.

 

[Punchshroom]

Well for one, Jynx is nowhere near a check now.

 

[MQJinx]

What if Sandslash dropped to NU? Seriously, RU players, stop using Sandslash.
I don't think Sandslash would be the premier spinner if it dropped to NU. Misdreavus can burn it, it doesn't have Foresight, Haunter tricks a Choice Scarf or can choose to run surprise Grass-type moves to take it out, and Golurk can force it out with either Ice Punch or DynamicPunch. I think Torkoal would still be better due to not caring about burns, Shell Smash, and raw power in Fire Blast, Yawn to mess up Ghosts, and a chance to burn Golurk with Lava Plume if it switches.

 

[Shuckleking87]

What if Sandslash dropped to NU?
Well, I think Wartortle is the best spinner in the tier, with its ability to use foresight to guarentee spins, not weak to rocks, and, while using offensive wartortle, threatens all ghosts barring misdreavus. However, even looking at the RU spinners, they cannot touch misdreavus as well. But I would be very glad for a sandslash drop. Yes, its weak to spikes, which are as common as they ever were, yet being resistant to S.R plus leftovers plus not being extremely slow gives it a great advantage. IF sandslash dropped, I would run spin/S.D/Earthquake/Stone Edge or Night Slash if you are scared of misdreavus with lefties or lum berry, if you are scared of misdreavus again. Armaldo can also run a SD Lum set, but even jolly armaldo wont outspeed standard misdreavus, so it doesnot work as well. Sandslash also has the electric immunity, which is a plus, and could also run stealth rocks if you want both for one poke

 

[Explorer]

Honestly I think the only thing Sandslash has going over Armaldo is STAB Earthquake. Both lay rocks and spin, and both get Stone Edge. However, Armaldo's base attack is higher, and it is not weak to Grass-type moves, very common with Ludicolo and Sawsbuck running rampant. It is also a good check to many Scolipede variants since Stone Edge is very powerful. And most targets that are destroyed by Sandslash's Night Slash are destroyed by Armaldo's STAB X-Scissor.

 

[pipasonze]

And most targets that are destroyed by Sandslash's Night Slash are destroyed by Armaldo's STAB X-Scissor.

You´re thinking about psychic-types, but spinners need to worry more about ghost-types, which try to spinblock.
Sandslash looks very similar to Armaldo, but it outclasses the fossil by being resistant to SR, having higher speed, STAB earthquake and access to night slash (to beat spinblockers). Still, it doesn't outclass NU's spinners by much (and they are pretty bad).

 

[saucemonkey1]

What if Emolga obtained Hurricane?

Would it jump in popularity as an abuser of accurate STAB Hurricane and STAB Thunder in the rain? Or would its base 75 Special Attack be too little for it to be usable?

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

What if Emolga obtained Hurricane?

Would it jump in popularity as an abuser of accurate STAB Hurricane and STAB Thunder in the rain? Or would its base 75 Special Attack be too little for it to be usable?

That's definately an interesting theory. I don't think base 75 would be to big a deal as you could remedy that with either specs or life orb + charge beam, and then roost off damage and begin a sweep. Though if you're doing the latter, it's probably better to set up rain yourself do to the fact that you'd be wasting valuable turns setting up with charge beam, meaning you'd have to drop roost or thunder. Though with specs it could be amazing as you click the best move for the opposing team and watch things die.

 

[Explorer]

I don't really think that it would be that big of a deal if NU lost Alomomola. What we would mainly be losing is the premier Wish-passer in the tier. This, to me, is what Alomomola succeeds the most in doing—not walling the entire tier.

Of course, since many people use Alomomola as a wall first and a Wish-passer second, they would have to adjust to its loss. The thing about the lack of Alomomola is that there are plenty of other physical tanks and walls in the tier that play such a role more effectively as it is. For example, while Misdreavus may not being able to take hits as well as Alomomola can, it has a lot of other things going for it. Its typing is the main thing; unlike Alomomola, which relies more on its bulk than its typing, Misdreavus has cool resistances and immunities to Normal-, Fighting-, and Bug-type attacks. Misdreavus also has access to Will-O-Wisp, one of the best—if not THE best—status moves in NU. Thanks to its great Speed stat for a tank, Misdreavus can also make good use of Taunt, keeping it from being the total set-up bait that Alomomola is and allowing it to single-handedly break down many stall teams in the tier. Finally, thanks to Levitate, Spikes and Toxic Spikes are both completely ineffective against Misdreavus. While Alomomola may have Regenerator to compensate a bit for Spikes, it is still very vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, and normal Spikes can also turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs, making it difficult for it to switch in.

Of course, I've already mentioned that Alomomola's main niche is in passing enormous Wishes. This means that should you care to use Wish, you would need to search elsewhere for it. On the physically defensive side, you have Leafeon, as well as a very underrated threat in Shelgon. Then on the specially defensive side, Audino and Lickilicky are both great users of the move.

By no means would NU become helpless if Alomomola were to go up to RU. To be honest, I haven't seen an Alomomola for ages when playing in tournaments outside of when I have used it myself alongside Audino. It's a great Pokemon, but it does have its drawbacks, just like any other Pokemon. However, it is by no means the backbone for defense in NU, and we'd do fine without it.

Also remember that Misdreavus has Thunder Wave, Substitute, and Perish Song (and Swagger, but most people don't rely on confusion has).

What if Emolga had Hurricane?

I have a feeling people would sometimes just slap Hurricane on since it's so strong, disregarding the weather entirely. It's basically what people do with Moltres in RU, it's that strong. However, it would be a welcome toy to Emolga's tool chest, and would make it more usable on rain teams. In particular, it makes a beautiful offensive rain core with Seismitoad, covering its weaknesses, destroying common Seismitoad checks such as Sawsbuck with Hurricane, and also many common NU Pokemon, such as Scolipede (without Rock Slide), Jynx (cannot switch in), and some Primeape. The thing is, Manectric and Galvantula would challenge Emolga as an electric-type rain abuser, but they're both in RU. Thus, Emolga's only competition is Pikachu (LOL), Electrode (nobody uses it), and Stunfisk (which is better supporting than all-out attacking anyway). Thus rain teams would happily accept Emolga for synergistic reasons.

What if Seismitoad had Liquid Ooze?

It's a toxic frog, and it gets Poison Touch. Anyway, I feel the only thing that would help Seismitoad is that Leech Seed is an unreliable way to stall it out, and you have to find a Grass STAB besides Giga Drain to attack it with. Still, Cradily, Shiftry, Sawsbuck, and Torterra generally use Seed Bomb/Wood Hammer as a grass STAB; only Vileplume would have issues, taking major damage as it kills Seismitoad, and then letting something such as Sawk or Charizard come in and demolish it.

 

[MQJinx]

I've got another of my own.

What if Wailord and/or Munchlax had Imposter?

Considering Ditto's frailty, something that has more bulk can do the same job but better. Choice Scarf still works to revenge kill, but I feel like these two, if given Imposter, can actually afford to speed tie and use Leftovers, Lum Berry, or Eviolite and switch in on hazard setters to set up their own hazards, spinners to spin, provide assistance by crippling defensive mons with their own strategy, etc. Basically scouting out opponents' sets. This would boost their usage quite a bit. Wailord would see usage on both offensive and defensive teams, while Munchlax would be more towards defensive teams.

Here are some calcs:

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan (Wailord): 285-336 (59.25 - 69.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan (Munchlax): 190-225 (46.22 - 54.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kangaskhan (Ditto): 216-255 (72.24 - 85.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[WhiteDMist]

Firstly, try to avoid suggesting obviously broken changes, or those that would make it unrealistic for this Pokemon to remain NU. If you're going to give Slaking ANYTHING other than Truant, why in the world would it still be NU? Likewise, don't go giving Articuno Magic Guard (or anything, really - Magic Guard in itself is a really fucking strong ability) or anything of the sort.

Give a brief explanation of why this move / ability would logically be usable on said Pokemon. This does not mean "i think it would be cool lololol". This does mean knowing the context of the move / ability that you want to add (ie. Quiver Dance tends to be found on Bug-type Pokemon with wings etc) and not just slapping moves on just because of their competitive nature. The goal here is semi-realism and discussing what would happen if Pokemon x got move y, not "let's see if we can make Pokemon x broken!!".

I don't think Imposter is arguable for either Wailord or Munchlax. It is also bordering on being broken, especially on Pokemon with such high HP stats. I feel like you should at least try and justify how this isn't basically making a bad Pokemon broken. That being said, both Pokes receiving Imposter would probably mean an immediate jump through the tiers, since they basically become bulkier and (usually) faster than the Pokemon they copy. The other items are usable, but still inferior for the most part I think.

 

[KryptoKrunch]

What if Scolipede got Coil?

Centipedes are known to coil up as a defense mechanism/when being disturbed so it definitely makes sense. So, if the centipede Pokemon got Coil would it be used more or less than SD? On one hand, you get a double boost with SD but on the other hand, Coil boosts attack, defense and clears up Megahorn's shaky accuracy(Aqua Tail and Rock slide don't have perfect Acc. either)

What if Dusknoir dropped to NU?
Dusclops is on the verge of dropping to RU, which would most likely mean Dusknoir would eventually drop to NU. I'd definitely be interested in using Dusknoir as a bulky spinblocker and pressure staller.

 

[Robust Raichu]

What if Scolipede got Coil?

Centipedes are known to coil up as a defense mechanism/when being disturbed so it definitely makes sense. So, if the centipede Pokemon got Coil would it be used more or less than SD? On one hand, you get a double boost with SD but on the other hand, Coil boosts attack, defense and clears up Megahorn's shaky accuracy(Aqua Tail and Rock slide don't have perfect Acc. either)

What if Dusknoir dropped to NU?
Dusclops is on the verge of dropping to RU, which would most likely mean Dusknoir would eventually drop to NU. I'd definitely be interested in using Dusknoir as a bulky spinblocker and pressure staller.

Two very interesting thoughts! Coil might make a Scolipede a more reliable late game sweeper with the accuracy boost to mend megahorn's unreliability and the defense boost to improve his set up opportunity. I think midgame and early game though, the quicker double boost from swords dance is greatly needed for Scolipede to pose a threat.

I see Dusknoir as a hybrid between Misdreavus and Golurk with the healing power and bulk of Misdreavus and access to EQ and a decent attacking stat like Golurk. I think Dusknoir would be a serious nail in Skuntank's side with the ability to either burn it or do heavy damage with EQ. It would still require good prediction though!

 

[Axa]

Dusknoir really doesn't make as big of an impact as one might think. Its only niche might be taking on Skuntank and Substitute Regirock because of its access to Earthquake, but beyond that, it just doesn't stack up to Misdreavus. Not only can Misdreavus afford to go offensive (don't think that Dusknoir's base 100 Attack is enough in a tanking role, especially when its best STAB has 60BP), but it also has immunity to Ground and Spikes/Tspikes. They have the same type, so you get no additional typing resistances from running Dusknoir.

The other problem is that status aside from paralysis is a death sentence for Dusknoir. As mentioned before, it's vulnerable to Toxic Spikes. Not just that, but unlike many other bulky walls (Misdreavus, Miltank, Lickilicky), it doesn't learn Heal Bell, so it can't patch up its own statuses. Even if you avoid Toxic, Burn cripples its main advantage over Misdreavus (Earthquake). Moreso, if you compare Dusknoir to Alomomola (who also is vulnerable to status), Dusknoir has very little team support options, unlike the sunfish who at least has gigantic Wishes. It can't use screens, function as a cleric, or set up hazards, and it's slow. The best it can do in terms of support is to burn enemies and act as a bulky pivot and a spinblocker, which Misdreavus arguably does better.

Dusknoir wouldn't make it very far in NU outside of the initial surge after dropping, at least, that's what I think.

Finally:

252+ Atk Skuntank Crunch vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Dusknoir: 134-162 (45.57 - 55.1%) -- 9.38% chance to 2HKO

 

[Kierany9]

What if Emolga had Hurricane?

-snip-
The thing is, Manectric and Galvantula would challenge Emolga as an electric-type rain abuser, but they're both in RU. Thus, Emolga's only competition is Pikachu (LOL), Electrode (nobody uses it), and Stunfisk (which is better supporting than all-out attacking anyway). Thus rain teams would happily accept Emolga for synergistic reasons.

A base 75 special attack is incredibly lacking and makes Emolga pretty much useless for this purpose without spamming the hell out of Charge Beam. And Emolga is as frail as...something very frail. However, a Baton Pass could easily turn Emolga into a frail support into an all-out, almighty attacker. 103 base speed is nothing to laugh at and Emolga plays a vital support role on my mono-electric NU team thanks to its ability to outspeed all common leads minus Scolipede.

Emolga would also lose to Pikachu's big brother, Raichu, who has Nasty Plot, a much more reliable and powerful SAtk booster, Surf, which decimates almost anything in the rain, and a decent SAtk stat of 90. The only advantage Emolga would have over Raichu is speed and recovery. Which is useless when when you have to spam Charge Beam to deal any amount of damage at all, and have to recover every other turn. Without a Baton Pass, I doubt Emolga with Hurricane would do any good. With a Baton Pass, Hurricane Emolga would wreck stuff up

 

[Farobi]

What if Ludicolo had access to Taunt?​

Taunt Ludicolo would actually be a really reliable answer to most common Stealth Rock leads. Not only does Ludicolo have the power to wipe them off the field, but it also has the typing that allows it to resist common offensive moves that the hazard supporter may carry, namely Ground-, Water-, and Steel-type attacks, while also hitting Rock-types super effectively with its STAB moves. I could potentially see defensive sets on the rise, with moves consisting of either Taunt, Scald, Giga Drain, Ice Beam, Leech Seed, Synthesis; it could probably be a really good defensive Pokemon that provides utility and can hit decently hard. Taunt can see usage in offensive sets as well, but it may not be as beneficial on those sets as opposed to the defensive sets. Stall teams may find a new dilemma, as Ludicolo can prevent things like Lickilicky's Wishes or Musharna's Thunder Wave from being spread around. Heck, it can even stop Exeguttor's Sleep Powder if it is not at the health where it could be taken out by Ice Beam. More things to think about: What Pokemon can see more usage if Ludicolo had access to Taunt? What Pokemon will fall in usage?

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

(Goddamn new forums not letting me Bold)

What if Munchlax got Intimidate?
Munchlax is considered a great Special wall with its monstrous bulk and Eviolite, but most Physical attackers destroy it. While losing Thick Fat would mean Charizard and Jynx no longer do half damage to it, Munchlax can finally take some Neutral physical hits.

What if Garbodor got Slack off? (2)
Garbodor looks like a lazy creature, so slack off is good Flavour-Wise. Having no recovery hurt its ability to switch in to Sawk and Primeapes Close Combats over and over, so this would help it immensely. Plus, he can now run Rocky Helmet a lot better without losing recovery.

What if Beedrill got Speed Boost?
I was trying to think of a Shitty pokemon and give it an incredible ability, and I decided on this. While it wouldn't be broken (its Beedrill for Pete's sake) Beedrill gets Swords Dance. Although no Movepool hurts and a Stealth Rock weakness hurts. Also Beedrill can now Toxic Spike better due to being able to Protect and outspeed the opponent almost always.

 

[skylight]

Garbodor with Slack Off would be good, and would definitely give it an extra niche above Roselia, and maybe even Scolipede. Actual recovery without it being residual, or without having to switch out would be amazing for it. I think it would actually have a good use in this current meta with the amount of physical attackers in NU. The defensive spiker thing could actually rise, because while Scolipede is great, it can barely take hits, and having something that can help you defensively, can recover reliably and can set up Spikes is pretty awesome, and I think Garbodor's usage would probably rise a bit for a while. Not sure if it'd remain popular for so long because people do tend to prefer guaranteed Spikes for the most part, and Scolipede is so much more useful in other ways, and having both Garbodor and Scolipede would pretty much throw away Scolipede's set immediately.

As for Beedrill with Speed Boost I don't think it'd increase that much more in usage. Ninjask has the higher speed when it comes to Speed Boost so people will prefer that for the most part I think. It also has access to Baton Pass, yeah, but Ninjask has the immediate speed to guarantee after one boost it can bypass various Scarfers, whereas Beedrill doesn't have that. For the most part people also prefer the other Spikers because they are safer to use and actually have access to Spikes whereas Beedrill doesn't. So for those reasons I think it'll generally be outclassed by the majority of the metagame.

 

[Meaty Man]

I did one of these before, but it wasn't too well received. Sawk Sucker Punch sounded to me like it had plenty of potential, but alas Smogon didn't quite share my viewpoint. While that still sounds good, I've come up with another one for Sawk which, apart from #specialsawk, could be a significant boost to its chances of making RU.

What is Sawk got ThunderPunch?

ThunderPunch is an essential tool for Sawk, as it will surely be the end of Alomomola standing in its way. I thought of this because of Alomomola being brought up higher on the page and it occurred to me that Sawk needs to conquer all of its NU hurdles if it's going to even think about hitting RU with any reasonable impact. With the below calc, Sawk demonstrates his great power without the need for a Scarf:

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Alomomola: 238-282 (44.56 - 52.8%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Alternatively you could go for my aforementioned special approach (What if he learnt Thunder?) which actually turns out better for him:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sawk Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 354-418 (66.29 - 78.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But if you're set on a Banded or physical Scarfed Sawk, there's no doubting it clears a significant issue on its merry path to RU. Think about this one, and hopefully you'll like it better than Sucker Punch.

 

[skylight]

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 261-307 (48.87 - 57.49%) -- 53.13% chance to 2HKO

It actually does more with Close Combat, and it can't really do anything for Sawk because Stone Edge hits flying types that ThunderPunch would be able to hit. If anything Sawk could use something to hit Ghost-types that switch in harder but it can work around that through Earthquake for Missy, Ice Punch for Golurk, etc. On the other hand, I'd hate to be locked into Thunder, especially against Alomomola which can Protect stall you anyway, and Thunder won't necessarily hit most times. So yeah, not a fan of Specs either, but I've already mentioned that on PS at various times.

 

[tennisace]

why would you bother mentioning a specs set for a pokemon with lower special attack than tyrogue?