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Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking
- Thread starter Chou Toshio
- Start date
I can't be the only one who's considered this because it totally makes sense flavor-wise.
What if Electric moves hit Steel super effectively?
Let's follow GameFreaks logic here:
Water conducts electricity. Electric's super effective on Water.
High points and planes get struck by lighting. Electric's super effective on Flying.
Metal conducts electricity. Electric's neutral on Steel.
Huh?
Electric attacks hitting Steels for SE would have huge implications on the metagame. It's not something I'd want to see necessarily, but it is interesting to think about.
Some effects this would have that I came up with:
BoltBeam coverage would become even better with the new ability to hit Steels super effectively.
VoltTurn strategies increase in usage.
Electric type usage increases, especially those with electric immunities. Volt Absorb Lanturn and Electivire may rise to OU.
Electric replaces Fire as the go-to move to hit Steel types with. Fire's power decreases with rain, and Fire is weak to Stealth Rock. Electric type's have neither of these issues.
Fighting usage decreases somewhat as well.
Grass type usage and Ground usage increases as the need to sponge electric moves increases.
Volt Absorb Lanturn and Thick Fat Mamoswine are prized even more for their unique resistances to BoltBeam.
Rain Teams continue to dominate, with Thunder spamage improved.
Empoleon and Skarmory would become 4x weak to electric, but this would not change their usage much, as Skarmory is already OHKOed by most Thunderbolts once Sturdy is broken and no one uses Empoleon anyway.
Bronzong, Scizor and Forretress get a second weakness.
Jirachi, Metagross and Heatran, get a third.
Magnezone also becomes electric neutral, but is actually made better now that it can hit it its fellow steel types with STAB electric moves.
Shed Shells on Steel types become more prominent as a result. With the lack of Leftovers on Steel types, non-steel walls usage increases.
Stall suffers as a result of Steel types new weakness. Offensive teams become even more dominant.
Steelix, being an electric immune Steel type which can counter Magnezone gets a new niche. Excadrill stays in Ubers, obviously.
Ferrothorn would become electric neutral, but would remain prized as an electric neutral steel type.
(Also some sort of counter balance to offset Electric's new power would be probably needed. Perhaps Rock type could be made to resist it, which would also make sense, but that's a whole different topic.)
What if Electric moves hit Steel super effectively?
Let's follow GameFreaks logic here:
Water conducts electricity. Electric's super effective on Water.
High points and planes get struck by lighting. Electric's super effective on Flying.
Metal conducts electricity. Electric's neutral on Steel.
Huh?
Electric attacks hitting Steels for SE would have huge implications on the metagame. It's not something I'd want to see necessarily, but it is interesting to think about.
Some effects this would have that I came up with:
BoltBeam coverage would become even better with the new ability to hit Steels super effectively.
VoltTurn strategies increase in usage.
Electric type usage increases, especially those with electric immunities. Volt Absorb Lanturn and Electivire may rise to OU.
Electric replaces Fire as the go-to move to hit Steel types with. Fire's power decreases with rain, and Fire is weak to Stealth Rock. Electric type's have neither of these issues.
Fighting usage decreases somewhat as well.
Grass type usage and Ground usage increases as the need to sponge electric moves increases.
Volt Absorb Lanturn and Thick Fat Mamoswine are prized even more for their unique resistances to BoltBeam.
Rain Teams continue to dominate, with Thunder spamage improved.
Empoleon and Skarmory would become 4x weak to electric, but this would not change their usage much, as Skarmory is already OHKOed by most Thunderbolts once Sturdy is broken and no one uses Empoleon anyway.
Bronzong, Scizor and Forretress get a second weakness.
Jirachi, Metagross and Heatran, get a third.
Magnezone also becomes electric neutral, but is actually made better now that it can hit it its fellow steel types with STAB electric moves.
Shed Shells on Steel types become more prominent as a result. With the lack of Leftovers on Steel types, non-steel walls usage increases.
Stall suffers as a result of Steel types new weakness. Offensive teams become even more dominant.
Steelix, being an electric immune Steel type which can counter Magnezone gets a new niche. Excadrill stays in Ubers, obviously.
Ferrothorn would become electric neutral, but would remain prized as an electric neutral steel type.
(Also some sort of counter balance to offset Electric's new power would be probably needed. Perhaps Rock type could be made to resist it, which would also make sense, but that's a whole different topic.)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Jirachi on a critical hit: 373-441 (92.32 - 109.15%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yes please. Also: The same Magnezone now 2HKOs Ferrothorn with Thunderbolt, as Thunderbolt is now neutral. I'll take it.
Yes please. Also: The same Magnezone now 2HKOs Ferrothorn with Thunderbolt, as Thunderbolt is now neutral. I'll take it.
I actually think that people would still run Focus Blast because it hits heatran and Kyurem-B hard, and otherwise gives up perfect coverage. However, a set of Substitute/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Flamethrower would be pretty awesome. Focus Blast still hits most things harder though. To me, It would be interesting to see how many people drop Disable for Flamethrower.
You're right, Flamethrower would probably have the biggest impact on the Choice Scarf set. I guess when I think Gengar I just think Sub/Disable because that's its best and most used set. Definitely an interesting theorymon.
I don't really agree that it makes sense flavor-wise. If anything it makes more sense that steel would be immune to electric but steel is already overpowered defensively and electric would be the only type with two immunities to it.
Metal that is attached to ground is actually called ground in electrical engineering terms.
Trees explode because of the sap inside them which is mostly water.
Lightning causes the breakdown of air (which is a terrible conductor).
One of the safest places from lightning is in your metal car.
I could just go on and on...
Ok... back to Pokemon. For one I don't really think that Steelix would get any use even if this change happened since it pretty much has gained nothing except not being nerfed by this change i.e. it still sucks. Lantern still faces heavy competition from Rotom-W and Electivire still has the problem of not having enough power despite it's good coverage. Finally, electric moves really won't be more "spammable", I think earlier in this thread it was stated that it is neutral coverage and not super-effective coverage that makes a type spammable, so pretty much the same pokemon resistant/immune to it before will still come in and ruin your Thunder spam.
So how about this?:
What if Illusion caused you to take the same passive damage as the pokemon you're disguised as and caused auto-activating abilities (Intimidate, Trace)?
Part of the reason why Zoroark isn't very effective is because very often it's illusion is broken the instant it switches in to anyone paying half attention. So the only illusion that will never be broken switching in would be a pokemon that takes damage from spikes, neutral damage from stealth rock, and hit by hail and sand and that number is reduced even further with some of them carrying leftovers. Now you're able to bluff anything threat w/o leftovers (unless you have leftys Zoroark lol) no matter what hazards or weather is up and there is still team preview so it wouldn't be broken. Anyone think that this could lead to those mind-games that everyone thought Zoroark would create?
What if Ferrothorn got recover?
Now it's obvious this would make ferrothorn wayyy better, in theory. But how good would this make him? Enough for a Suspect test? This would give Ferro reliable recovery outside of leftys + leech seed, but, recover might give ferrothorn the Four Move Slot syndrome considering that Ferro needs Power Whip/Gyro Ball, and usually runs Spikes/SR and Leech Seed, leaving the 4th moveslot open up for another hazard/T-Wave/Recover and even another attacking move. Everyone knows ferrothorn is an excellent defensive poke, but would this be too good on him?
Now it's obvious this would make ferrothorn wayyy better, in theory. But how good would this make him? Enough for a Suspect test? This would give Ferro reliable recovery outside of leftys + leech seed, but, recover might give ferrothorn the Four Move Slot syndrome considering that Ferro needs Power Whip/Gyro Ball, and usually runs Spikes/SR and Leech Seed, leaving the 4th moveslot open up for another hazard/T-Wave/Recover and even another attacking move. Everyone knows ferrothorn is an excellent defensive poke, but would this be too good on him?
That's because of your tires...and pure water is actually a terrible conductor of electricity. Water molecules have no free electrons for electric current to pass through. The only reason it conducts electricity so well is because of the trace metals that are found in it. Metals are good conductors because of their high electronegativity. They have more free electrons and thus current passes through them more easily.
Source: literally any chemistry class
There would definitely be some 4MSS, but you can run a set with spikes/leech seed/power whip OR gyro ball/recover. It would be really good; how good is hard to tell.
That is because the metal conducts the electricity into the ground. While I 100% respect your opinion, Electric being Super Effective on Steel makes perfect sense flavor-wise.
Water conducts electricity (Electric is Super effective on Water) so...
Metal conducts electricity (Electric is Super effective on Steel)
In fact, I think that the only reason that Electric was not made Super Effective on Steel was because it may have been too powerful. Heck, They had made the best Defensive type in the game already, so they probably didn't want it to resist even more when designing the new types.
Sorry but you've made some false claims here. I'm okay if you think it makes sense flavor-wise but please don't act like this.
Can we get back to Pokemon? No one interested in the Zoroark idea?
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^It would be a nice bough to Illusion, but you'd still get found out by the amount of previous damage as the battle goes on. It would make Zoroark more effective at the beginning-- but I still don't think it would break OU. There's just not enough use for it.
In that case, the only Pokemon I could see getting a boost from it is Trapinch.
Keep in mind that Trapinch does have 100 ATK and Arena Trap. Some calcs with doubled defenses:
0 SpA Ninetales Flamethrower vs. +2 168 HP / 44 SpD Trapinch in sun: 111-132 (40.65 - 48.35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. +2 168 HP / 44 SpD Trapinch in sun: 186-220 (68.13 -
80.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. +2 168 HP / 44 SpD Trapinch: 176-208 (64.46 - 76.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. +2 168 HP / 44 Def Trapinch: 169-199 (61.9 - 72.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
....
....
....
Ok nvm, scratch that idea. I can't think of any 1st stage of 3 Pokemon who could make it in OU with +2 boosts to defenses.
I'm going to assume we're only talking about the 1st of 3 Pokemon lines who get the x2 boost.
In that case, the only Pokemon I could see getting a boost from it is Trapinch.
Keep in mind that Trapinch does have 100 ATK and Arena Trap. Some calcs with doubled defenses:
0 SpA Ninetales Flamethrower vs. +2 168 HP / 44 SpD Trapinch in sun: 111-132 (40.65 - 48.35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. +2 168 HP / 44 SpD Trapinch in sun: 186-220 (68.13 -
80.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. +2 168 HP / 44 SpD Trapinch: 176-208 (64.46 - 76.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. +2 168 HP / 44 Def Trapinch: 169-199 (61.9 - 72.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
....
....
....
Ok nvm, scratch that idea. I can't think of any 1st stage of 3 Pokemon who could make it in OU with +2 boosts to defenses.
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Most of them either have too low HP, offenses or really barren movepools. One Pokemon I could see it working with would be Porygon, though - high defenses, access to Recover and Thunder Wave, and access to either Trace or Analytic.
I'm going to make a theorymon that involves a ability and a move together on one poke:
What if Cresselia got Rattled and Stored Power (or just one of those)?
Rattled seems a poor choice for Cresselia, right? But Cresselia is the coolest (if not the only) candidate for this ability. Being weak to bug, ghost and dark means any super-effective attack will raise it's speed, and with Cresselia's super bulk to live through those hits it will soon be very fast (if you keep attacking it with SE attacks, of course). Being fast means it will be harder and harder to revenge kill, meaning it can not only boost with Calm Mind more easily, it can also attack before being attacked. With CM, it basically works as a worse Quiver Dance for pokes that can't get it.
Stored Power. on the other hand, lets Cresselia to put huge pressure on the opponent since it will be too powerful if you let it set up (or if you can't take this thing down quickly), meaning Cresselia should finally be frightening to battle against.
Separated, they are decent. Together...
What if Cresselia got Rattled and Stored Power (or just one of those)?
Rattled seems a poor choice for Cresselia, right? But Cresselia is the coolest (if not the only) candidate for this ability. Being weak to bug, ghost and dark means any super-effective attack will raise it's speed, and with Cresselia's super bulk to live through those hits it will soon be very fast (if you keep attacking it with SE attacks, of course). Being fast means it will be harder and harder to revenge kill, meaning it can not only boost with Calm Mind more easily, it can also attack before being attacked. With CM, it basically works as a worse Quiver Dance for pokes that can't get it.
Stored Power. on the other hand, lets Cresselia to put huge pressure on the opponent since it will be too powerful if you let it set up (or if you can't take this thing down quickly), meaning Cresselia should finally be frightening to battle against.
Separated, they are decent. Together...
What if Dragonite got Belly Drum?
This could work on a full health Dragonite with MS intact, or even behind a sub (salac), and seeing as how Dragonite has Aqua Jet and Extreme Speed, it could abuse both while still sporting a Dragon move as well. Not to mention, Dragonite has a belly :)
This could work on a full health Dragonite with MS intact, or even behind a sub (salac), and seeing as how Dragonite has Aqua Jet and Extreme Speed, it could abuse both while still sporting a Dragon move as well. Not to mention, Dragonite has a belly :)
Well, it means Gengar doesn't have to lose the speed ties of the 110 tier anymore (Lati@s quickly springs into mind). Flamethrower > HP Fire of course, but it also means a all-out attacking Gengar might be possible with HP Ice. Besides, Flamethrower means some less used Pursuiters stand less of a chance against it (Metagross, anyone?).
If Gravity had a permanent summoner, how useful would it be? How would it compare to the regular weathers in terms of usage and effectiveness?
This would be good, but it depends on which Pokemon permanently summoned it, and whether it got rid of Weather or not (I would assume not of course, but still). Basically it would be a boost to inaccurate moves like Stone Edge and Focus Blast, while also allowing for EQ spam, but again it REALLY depends on the Pokemon that summons it.
EDIT: @ Belly Drum Dragonite. Broken AF. This would be so good. come in, Belly drum, proceed to Extreme Speed everything. This is no Linoone we're talking about. WOW, that'd be good.
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@ Belly Drum Dragonite... IMO it would make Dragonite pretty much instantly broken, like, that's ridiculous
It depends on how good the gravity Pokemon is in the first place, if it is something really sucky it might not get much use at all. Honestly, if it has a good user, I think it would be a bigger boon to stall rather than offense, pretty much insuring that every Pokemon gets hit by spikes and toxic spikes, which would be just amazing for stall. For offense, being more accurate with Blizzard, Thunder and it would be a boost to ground type Pokemon like Mamoswine and Landorus-T, that would all be great, but IMO stall would gain much more.
Gravity starter + Grass Whistle / Stun Spore Whimsicott
Just saying.
Just saying.
That's disgusting.
I suppose it would indeed open up some pretty ridiculous stuff such as whisicott
Well, there are some obvious abusers there that can utilize Gravity. Landy-I would be one of them if it weren't for his banning. Landy-T would be pretty strong on either a Scarf or a RP set. LO Starmie might see use again, abusing the incredible 120base attacks in Hydro Pump/Thunder/Blizzard. Maybe even Sheer Force Nidoking would see use in OU with a similar set. To an even further extent, Stall teams can utilize Spikes and TSpikes hitting all targets, and EQ even further becomes universally powerful.
In terms of usefulness, it could be a bit more dangerous than what weather provides. First is because of Gravity being permanent when it hits the field, being unaffected by weather starters. This makes it way too simple to get a recurring effect out, as there is almost no way to remove gravity once it's in. If it were to leave the field when weather hits though, then it might be balanced around knowing that. Secondly, the accuracy boost from Gravity is easily abused on more teams than weather can. For example, we see how Rain makes spamming Hydro Pump/Surf an easy no-brainer tool, and many would argue that it's sort of toxic in a way where it's too reliable and way too easy to use. Gravity does that to inaccurate moves, and that spectrum is very big. Suddenly Hydro Pumps, Fire Blasts, Focus Blasts, Will-O-Wisps, Sleep Powders, all have absolutely ZERO risks accuracy-wise. These attacks become easily accessible because they now have no drawbacks to using them, and as such, players lose the idea of risk/reward when using these attacks. This is only furthered by the fact that Gravity can come in easily by switch in.