Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[Chou Toshio]

^Eh, nothing special honestly. Flygon's stats are just not good enough-- too weak, too slow, too frail to make the sweep work. +1 Flygon can 2HKO a lot of pokes in the meta, but it's not bulky enough to survive the attacks that would be coming back at it. Finding a chance to set up isn't easy either. Plus, without a choice set you're not using Flygon's greatest strength-- the fact that it almost has its own built in magic guard; it takes so little passive damage and can switch in and out so easily. Trying to go for a set up sweep with it just makes it a kind of inferior Salamence or Sub-Salac Garchomp.


What if Vine Whip was made into a Grass-type, Special Pursuit? (with 40 Base Power, 80 on switch-out)

Flavorwise, it makes sense, and Vine Whip is a move where a Grass type lashes out and snags the enemy with a vine-- why not have it snatch the opponent trying to escape?

Grass is a very interesting/strange attacking type in every metagame. On one hand, it has absolutely terrible coverage, and is resisted by a huge variety of Pokemon, including Steel, Fire, Flying, Poison, Bug, Grass, and Dragon types. Normally, this would make any type bad enough that you'd never consider using it-- except that it hits Water- and Ground-types for super effective (lesser shout out to Rock); both of which are just so notable in every metagame that you almost can't ignore the usefulness of Grass moves.

That said, it's incredibly easy for most teams to switch into Grass moves, making moves like Petal Dance and Leaf Storm pretty unpopular despite the success of say, Outrage and Draco Meteor. Point is Grass sucks as a main offensive STAB-- most pokes rather use it as a coverage move against specific Water- or Ground-type counters/checks.

Now, what if Grass had a move like Pursuit? Instead of worrying about whether they'll switch in one of their many Grass-type resistors, you now KNOW that you can hit your intended target with your grass move. Suddenly, Hippowdon, Politoad, Dugtrio, Gastrodon and friends couldn't just switch out as they please against something like Tangrowth or Venusaur.

For the sake of argument, let's just say there was also a Physical Grass Pursuit, learn-able by all Pokemon that learn Power whip (including Ferrothorn)


Also, just because it would be the most perfect Pokemon for abusing this ever, let's just say Roserade also gets Pursuit-style Vine Whip (the Special one).


Roserade
@Choice Specs
Modest
Natural Cure / Technician
252 HP, 4 SpD, 252 SpA
-Vine Whip
-Sludge Bomb
-Sleep Powder / Hidden Power Ice-Fire-Ground-Fighting (70 / 60)
-Leaf Storm / Hidden Power Ice-Fire-Ground-Fighting (70 / 60)

It's got that 125 Special, awesome Special bulk to switch into Politoed and Starmie (something Tangrowth can't do), Technician to boost Vine Whip, or Natural cure to let it switch in and out easy (and say fuck you to Scald), and is a good OU Pokemon in general.

 

[Schpoonman]

Yes please. I fucking loathe Hippowdon.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Technician Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 278-330 (66.19 - 78.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

HP Grass set to 40 BP. That's not switching out. Wow. Basically, your only recourse is to Roar and then hope that Roserade doesn't get a free switch when you Hippowdon's on the field. Interestingly enough, with Technician a switch-out is only 33% stronger than leaving it in. Now, SpDef Hippo is only 3HKOd by non-Technician Vine Whip, but it's a worse prospect than Alakazam has with Scizor. If Alakazam predicts correctly, it's instantly a dead Scizor. SpDef Hippo risks getting OHKOd by Leaf Storm, and if he tries to attack/do anything besides Roar and THEN switch, well, he's KOd there as well. Basically, run Technician.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I was leaving my own idea unanswered to let other people post, but since no one has said anything I'll just go ahead and give my own thoughts about Vine Whip as a special Grass-type Pursuit

First off, looking at Pursuit users we know from real experience, there's a number of factors we see to indicate excellence

1) High Offensive Stat If you can kill the enemy even when they don't switch, power to you
2) Great Bulk, and more Bulk, and more Bulk-- Speed is nice, but really... more Bulk! If you can switch in AND trap, you're that much better.
3) Pursuit users often use Choice Items, so freedom of switching is good. If you got an ability or type that Heals you or protects you from passive damage, that's great.

Considering these 3 major points of trapping, the obvious candidates for Grass trapper are Tangrowth and Roserade. These two Pokemon embody basically everything on the list.

They have the highest offensive stats for Grass-types, with 110 and 125 Special attack. Roserade has the highest offensive stat of any Grass-type in the game, except Breloom 130 ('shrooms don't have vines), and ties with Exeggcutor's 125 SpA (who's a palm tree-- when did you ever see a palm tree use vines?). At least Roserade's a Rose, which are often associated with thorny whips used by grass-based characters in games, tv shows, and such. Roserade even has Technician to boost its power!

Roserade
Enemy Not Running, Natural Cure
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 210-248 (54.68 - 64.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 240-284 (91.95 - 108.81%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 240-284 (74.07 - 87.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Running, Natural Cure
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 200-236 (66.88 - 78.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 150-176 (49.5 - 58.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 200-236 (82.64 - 97.52%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 230-272 (70.98 - 83.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 204-240 (50.62 - 59.55%) -- 80.08% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 318-374 (82.81 - 97.39%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 272-324 (64.76 - 77.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 186-222 (44.28 - 52.85%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Enemy Not Running, Technician
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 368-434 (95.83 - 113.02%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Technician Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 360-426 (111.11 - 131.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Technician Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 218-260 (71.94 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Technician Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 296-350 (98.99 - 117.05%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Technician Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 342-404 (105.55 - 124.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 554-654 (144.27 - 170.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Technician Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 224-266 (55.44 - 65.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Technician Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 474-560 (123.43 - 145.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Technician Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 408-482 (97.14 - 114.76%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Technician Roserade Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 278-330 (66.19 - 78.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And of course the vast majority of these Pokemon are OHKO'd if they switch out. Defensive Starmie's the one you got to be most wary of, since even with 0 SpA, Psyshock OHKO's you (min 120%).

They both have good bulk.
Tangrowth's got the physical side down, able to easily switch into foes like Donphan, Hippowdon, Feraligatr, and Dutrio with ease, trapping and killing them. It can also think about trapping Terrakion and Tyranitar, especially if it is using the physical Grass pursuit. While it's not hitting them for super effective, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Garchomp, and Gyarados are all Pokemon it can do something about too. Generally speaking, it's covering the Ground types.
252 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Tangrowth: 124-148 (30.69 - 36.63%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Tangrowth: 220-261 (54.45 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Tangrowth: 204-240 (50.49 - 59.4%) -- 75.39% chance to 2HKO

It's special Bulk leaves something to be desired, but it can take hits from weak Scalds. That said, it should probably stay away from any water type under rain (Scarf Keldeo's rain boosted Hydro Pump 2HKO's, as does its Icy Wind if Tangrowth doesn't invest in SpD). Regenerator can go a long way to help it if it miss-predicts though.

Roserade has a lot of trouble taking physical hits (offensive Gyarados' +1 Water Fall 2HKO's). But it's special bulk is fantastic! It also has that Fighting-resist to help it out against Keldeo's Secret Sword. Roserade will handle water types much better in general-- though it has to be careful about Item-boosted Ice Beams and Starmie's Psyshock.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 216-255 (66.66 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 146-172 (45.06 - 53.08%) -- 28.91% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 254-300 (78.39 - 92.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Survivability
On top of all this, Tangrowth's Regenerator makes it even more appealing as a Choice Specs trapper, and Roserade's able to shake of random Scald Burns with Natural Cure, and absorb Toxic Spikes for its team as well.

Both of them have Leaf Storm, and can randomly include Sleep Powder to mess opponents up even more.



So outside of typical Choice sets aimed at trapping, the other main curiosity would lie in:
How would Vine Whip as Grass Pursuit affect Sun Teams?

Intuitively, one wouldn't expect a major connection between Grass-type Pursuit, and Sun Teams. Grass-types on Sun teams are sweepers (and often Growth boosting sweepers), not trappers. From the experience we have had on Pursuit, we know Pursuit is generally NOT a move we consider on boosting Sweepers. Sweepers need every slot they can get for coverage, boosting moves, and even recovery or Substitute to help them set up. Besides, they're trying to mow down several enemies instead of picking off opponents-- and in sweeping, rarely will they be facing a Pokemon that is Pursuit bait anyway.

DD TTar in ADV/DPPt would never use Pursuit, and neither would SD Scizor or Agility Metagross now. Weavile usually tries a bit of both, but SD sets generally wouldn't use Pursuit. So why would Grass Pursuit be useful for Sun Teams?

The thing is, most Sand/Rain teams need to Get Rid of Sun in order to beat a Chlorophyll Sweeper. To do this, they need to bring in Politoed, Hippowdon or Tyranitar-- all of which are weak to Grass.

So, a Grass Type Pursuit users who is also a Chlorophyll sweeper, has the very STRANGE luxury of having its prey come to it. While most trappers would NEVER have their expected prey SWITCH INTO THEM, a Chlorophyll Sweeper who is also a Grass Trapper would have Hippowdon, Politoed, and/or Tyranitar switch into them in order to get rid of Sun. Usually, they would switch out after removing Sun but, what if the enemy was a Grass-type Pursuit user??

The opponent is stuck with the decision-- bring in my weather changer and have it get Pursuit-trapped, or let the Chlorophyll sweeper abuse Chlorophyll. It's a lose-lose situation.

Basically, we're talking about Victrebeebel or Venusaur, and we're talking about them using Growth as the opponent switches in a weather user. Keep in mind, the below calcs work for BOTH mons, who have the same special attack.

Weather Changer Doesn't Switch
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 237-281 (61.71 - 73.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 307-361 (73.09 - 85.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 205-244 (48.8 - 58.09%) -- 60.16% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Hidden Power Grass vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 156-187 (40.41 - 48.44%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 112-135 (27.72 - 33.41%) -- 0.44% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Weather Changer Does Switch
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 468-554 (121.87 - 144.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 413-486 (98.33 - 115.71%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Hidden Power Grass vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 312-369 (80.82 - 95.59%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 226-268 (55.94 - 66.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Obviously, Hippowdon and Politoed are REALLY in a tight spot, and while TTar is better off, it can still get OHKO'd by Power Whip if it stays in. A Chlorophyll trapper wouldn't be a 100% kill on any Politoed, TTar, or Hippowdon set, but it would still be extremely dangerous, and basically guaranteed to at least severely weaken the enemy weather starter. Even if TTar or Hippowdon survives the encounter, being knocked down to 40% health might mean losing the game against a healthy Ninetales.

Especially considering that...

The insane thing is that you could simply double up on Chlorophyll abusers. Trapper Venusaur or Victrebel could be used to open a sweep for a fully dedicated Growth sweeper or Sawsbuck. Timid Tangrowth also gets over 400 Speed, and could be used as a Trapper also-- having higher SpA than Venusaur and Victrebel.

Most likely, you would see Victreebel AND Venusaur on the same team. The opponent would have no idea which one is the trapper, and which one is the 3 attack Growth Sweeper. Even if they did know, they still can't get rid of sun without bringing in their weather starter. The trapper can kill or at least sorely weaken the enemy weather starter, winning the weather war and allowing the fully dedicated sweeper to sweep.

Grass-type Pursuit almost eliminates the need to run Dugtrio to with the weather war-- instead, you'd get to fill its spot with an extra Chlorophyll sweeper that can also trap. This would potentially make Sun teams a lot more efficient, allowing them to double up their Chlorophyll sweeping potential against non-weather teams and enemy sun teams, while still having a distinct advantage in winning the weather war against Sand and Rain. I think it could seriously level the playing field in terms of weather.

Edit:

Holy shit, I just realized if there was a physical Grass-type Pursuit, you could just use Swords Dance instead of Growth-- giving you +2 instead of +1 as the weather changer comes in!

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 312-369 (81.25 - 96.09%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Grass vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 226-268 (58.54 - 69.43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 213-252 (50.71 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 159-190 (37.85 - 45.23%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So if we're talking about a Physical Trap/Sweep Venusaur with Swords Dance (and probably Return/Earthquake as its other moves), it can 2HKO Band Tyranitar AND Mixed Wall Hippowdon that stay in.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Grass vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 452-533 (117.09 - 138.08%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 424-502 (100.95 - 119.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 315-374 (75 - 89.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It also OHKO's Band TTar and Mixed Hippowdon if they switch out-- damn, pretty beast.

 

[Schpoonman]

But I did reply... =(

 

[GCSChris]

What if Vine Whip was made into a Grass-type, Special Pursuit?

Roserade would be better; the offensive user of this move. Rain would become less viable obviously, but i think that it would still be good. Ferrothorn would be great with this, as is has already proven itself as one of the best pokemon of BW OU pokemon, and this would boost it up.

Then again, it would be less powerful when they don't switch out. I really like the HP Grass idea for that reason, especially on the chlorophyll sweepers. Sun would get a huge boost as you said because they can't really stop the Chlorophyll sweepers. Awesome theorymon.

 

[Chou Toshio]

But I did reply... =(

Oh sorry, that's not what I meant-- I just meant it didn't become a discussion.

But yeah-- I agree with you that Technician would be the predominant ability in all likelihood. Too bad, because Natural Cure is a great ability for a Choice Poke too.

Roserade would be better; the offensive user of this move. Rain would become less viable obviously, but i think that it would still be good. Ferrothorn would be great with this, as is has already proven itself as one of the best pokemon of BW OU pokemon, and this would boost it up.

Then again, it would be less powerful when they don't switch out. I really like the HP Grass idea for that reason, especially on the chlorophyll sweepers. Sun would get a huge boost as you said because they can't really stop the Chlorophyll sweepers. Awesome theorymon.

Thanks Chris. Yeah, I didn't even notice how Sun would be able to abuse it until I thought about it some more. You just don't think of Pursuit on sweepers, but just "doubling up" on them could be pretty lethal.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Honestly I think it would be a little too good for sun, Politoed, Hippowdon, and Tyranitar all take some hefty damage from grass-pursuit, with the right support, a sun team could easily trap and kill it's opposition. At the very least, sun would be at the same level of popularity as sand and rain are, although I think much more so.

 

[Schpoonman]

I think that would make up immensely for how frail Ninetales is. Tyranitar has incredible bulk, weaknesses mostly be damned, and Hippowdon is one of the hardest Pokemon to KO in the game. Politoed isn't in the same league but is still in an infinitely better boat than Ninetales. Think about it, the hardest part of Sun is winning the weather war because the sand and rain starters are so much better/carry Ninetales' weakness as STAB while Ninetales is struggling to even mark them.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^It might become a lot more common for teams to hard-check chlorophyll sweepers with Pokemon like Heatran or Latias (or Skarm-Bliss? lol). Teams that rely on Politoad or Tyranitar removing sun in order to beat Chlorophyll users might decrease.

While "double chlorophyll" would drastically increase a Sun team's offensive ability, it might remove some of its trapping reliability. There's no doubt that a chlorophyll sweeper stuck with 1 less coverage move will be less effective, and much easier to wall-- Chlorophyll sweepers are already pressed for coverage as it is.

That said, this is where Victreebel + Venusaur would really be deadly-- because you would have no way to know whether either of them is a trapper, or a 3 coverage move sweeper-- until they start attacking. It's even possible that BOTH could be 3 move attackers, and the fear of getting trapped being a big enough deterrent to keep weather starters out, and Sun up. Guess right and you might be able to change the weather or force out the trapper. Guess wrong and you could lose a valuable Heatran to that EQ you didn't expect on Venusaur, or have a Dragon-type team mate SMASHED by an unexpected +2 Sludge Bomb from Victreebel; or get your weather starter trapped and killed. Plus you don't know which, if either is running Sleep Powder.

Sounds pretty lethal.

 

[dwarfstar]

Indeed it is. As a sun user and lover of Grass-types, you have no idea how much I want it. Anyway, here are my predictions for the Vine Whip metagame:

We see an immediate increase in usage of Latias and Heatran as a means of fighting off the massive influx of sun teams on the ladder (the Vine Whip meta is especially kind to Heatran, since he also benefits from the sunlight that now threatens to unseat rain as sand's top competitor). Chansey also rises somewhat, as she walls almost every sun team that doesn't have a Fighting-type or DDMence to hell and back. As such, I expect Fighting-types with a method of dealing with Latias will become sun's new best friends; the most noteworthy are Choice Band Terrakion (he smashes Heatran and Chansey, although he must be wary of switching in on Earth Power or Thunder Wave; proper prediction allows him to maul Latias with X-scissor on the switch; and he can take advantage of opposing sand to increase his special bulk) and Heracross (his Close Combat OHKOs specially defensive Heatran after Stealth Rock and nets over 70% on standard Chansey, and Megahorn OHKOs 252/0 Latias). Heracross also smashes Tyranitar and has nice type synergy with the rising Heatran, as he can take some of the Fighting and Ground attacks aimed at Heatran while his counterpart absorbs Fire moves and tanks Psychic and Dragon attacks. The most common Heracross set will likely be a Moxie Scarfer, but I expect we'd see some Guts users around to ease the fear of paralysis from switching into Chansey's Thunder Wave.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Eh that's a mighty load of theory bro, there are plenty of other ways to deal with sun, I doubt we would see Heracross rise to OU or anything, an increase yes, but not that much.

Anyway, a lot of listed counters are still weak to other trappers like Scizor and Dugtrio, and while I doubt anyone good would run like all the trappers for sun, as that is just overloading the lead, but something like a Scizor / Dugtrio + Roserade trapping combo is something I could easily see evolve in the meta. Don't forget there are other checks to Venusaur, Zapdos for example is an excellent check.

 

[ErraticMagic]

I guess I'll say a few things about the physical version of the new Vine Whip since no one else has said much about it.

Well it might actually get people to use CB Ferrothorn, one of those sets on the analysis that I've never seen or thought about using. The 4th moveslot is filler anyway so the set is pretty much unchanged.

Physical Vine Whip can OHKO Starmie, Mamoswine, and less bulky Tyranitar/Politoed sets as they switch out. It will never be able to kill Hippowdon, but it still does a lot and Power Whip threatens to OHKO specially defensive versions. Also, it could trap Keldeo or Terrakion if they're choice-locked into something it resists.

Finally, Victreebel and Tangrowth also have about the same attack so they could get the same kills but I think they would usually prefer special Vine Whip to kill Hippowdon, are killed by a couple of these pokemon if they mispredict, and lack a decent secondary stab.

 

[Chou Toshio]

CB Ferrothorn would definitely be something to think about-- Gyro Ball, Power Whip, Vine Whip-P, and Bull Doze sounds pretty sweet. 94 is kind of weak, but if it can take out specs toad, starmie, rotom-w and scarf Keldeo, that's already pretty good!

 

[Stone Alchemist]

What if Rotom-A had retained its Ghost/Electric typing upon the transition into B/W?

As we all know, upon the transition in B/W, each of Rotom-A's forms had their Ghost typing replaced with the respective typing of their signature move (Rotom-W had its Ghost typing replaced with Water because of Hydro Pump, etc.). I believe that if this had not happened, Rotom-A would become the premium spinblockers of OU, and all the forms would be OU, while regular Rotom retained its place in RU.

Jellicent would probably be outclassed in the spinblocker role by Rotom-A, and would likely be tested in UU. I wouldn't be able to tell whether it would stay UU or get trapped in BL though, since I sparsely play UU.

Rotom-A would also see more use on teams other than rain, due to the new typing and being able to abuse a respective signature move in Sun and Hail. Hail in particular would have a new teammate in Rotom-A, and would probably see use on every team, due to Rotom-A being able to abuse Blizzard, and giving a Fighting immunity that negates the fighting weakness most hail teams have. Tyranitar would also see rise due to being able to take on Rotom-A easily and wear it down with Pursuit.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^We actually discussed that already. Discussion started on page 3, check it out to see the responses that were already given.

 

[Torterragatr]

To be honest I don't like Pursuit in principle (type-designated trapping, on something that is better than Dugtrio), so even though I would like the buff to Grass-types I'm not so sure about Vine Whip-P. Weather wars are fun if you think they are anyway because beating them usually needs strategy, and a HP Fire Roserade could almost effortlessly beat every other weather starter minus maybe Scarf T-tar, except if they had a resist berry or w/e.

What if Sawsbuck got Blaze Kick?

Flavor-wise, it gets moves like Double Kick and Jump Kick, and Lucario, which learns similar kicking moves, gets it. This would give more reason to use Sawsbuck over Venusaur. +2 Blaze Kick in the sun goes right through Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Gengar, so it would be very hard to deal with if you can't change the weather or have Chandelure/strong priority attacks.

@Chou: forgot about Heatran, considering that sun teams that don't have Duggy hate it Sawsbuck might still run Nature Power for it sometimes. I imagined Sawsbuck getting it as an egg move from Blaziken, which is where Lucario gets Blaze Kick from.

 

[Chou Toshio]

While I'm not completely convinced that Sawsbuck makes sense from a flavor stand point, it's VERY cool competitively. Leech Horn kills Jellicent, Terrakion, and Tyranitar. Blaze Kick kicks in Gengar and all the steels. Return destroys everything else. The only thing you don't cover is Heatran-- who will be constantly worried about you potentially running Jump Kick or Nature Power. SD Sawsbuck would be a force to be reckoned with. Now if only it had the bulk to set up on things...

 

[Gary]

While I'm not completely convinced that Sawsbuck makes sense from a flavor stand point, it's VERY cool competitively. Leech Horn kills Jellicent, Terrakion, and Tyranitar. Blaze Kick kicks in Gengar and all the steels. Return destroys everything else. The only thing you don't cover is Heatran-- who will be constantly worried about you potentially running Jump Kick or Nature Power. SD Sawsbuck would be a force to be reckoned with. Now if only it had the bulk to set up on things...

Indeed. Sawsbuck would be absolutely amazing if it had the bulk to setup on things, but alas, it's frail as fuck, and dies to pretty much any form of priority. I've found that using Sawsbuck's amazing ability to force switches is the key to getting up a free SD. Not much in the metagame wants to take a LO STAB Double-Edge or a Horn Leech, and often times the opponent might try to bring in something to counter it. That's when you setup an SD, but it's still a hassle. Blaze Kick would be amazing, and missing out on hitting Heatran is not that big of a deal IMO as most Sun teams tend to carry something like Dugtrio to trap it. It can still hit Jirachi for Super-effective damage, hits Ferrothorn harder than Jump Kick, and best of all, it can KO Skarmory in the sun at +2. Count me in! I don't if I would use Sawsbuck more than Venusaur, but I sure as hell would consider using it more often.

 

[GCSChris]

Yeah I don't really see Heatran as a huge problem because you would already be usign sun, and therefore most likely dugtrio, and also a decent amoun of pokemon get walled by Heatran anyways; there are other ways to deal with it.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

What if Snorlax got Poison Heal?
Snorlax finally dropped to UU this generation, due to it's stats not cutting it, the things that it 'checks' being able to beat it, but most of all, no recovery. Now, Poison heal is only 12%, but it's better than leftovers and allows Snorlax to be immune to status. But here is the biggest thing that Poison Heal does. It gives it a 140 BP STAB Facade to abuse. along with Pursuit/Crunch, Earthquake, and Protect or Fire Punch, Snorlax could finally rise to OU, or at least BL, once again.

 

[Gary]

What if Snorlax got Poison Heal?
Snorlax finally dropped to UU this generation, due to it's stats not cutting it, the things that it 'checks' being able to beat it, but most of all, no recovery. Now, Poison heal is only 12%, but it's better than leftovers and allows Snorlax to be immune to status. But here is the biggest thing that Poison Heal does. It gives it a 140 BP STAB Facade to abuse. along with Pursuit/Crunch, Earthquake, and Protect or Fire Punch, Snorlax could finally rise to OU, or at least BL, once again.

Interesting.....don't really see the flavor in it. Anyways, I doubt this would be enough to push it to OU. Snorlax's biggest problem is its speed and its Normal-type. Now don't get me wrong, Snorlax isn't a bad Pokemon, but it's outsped by so much and even with its massive bulk it's still prone to being revenge killed by the plethora of Fighting-types and weather boosted attacks. I'm pretty sure Skarmory still avoids the 2HKO from Fire Punch outside of sun, and having to forgo the almighty Choice Band for a Toxic Orb would only decrease its damage output. Although it now has a more reliable means of recovery, Snorlax gets worn down so easily and quickly in OU that it wouldn't really take as much advantage from its ability as Gliscor does. Sure it gets a 140 base STAB move, but once again, a CB Return already hits so fucking hard. Here's an example:

252+ Atk Snorlax Facade vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 213-252 (58.51 - 69.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Return vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 234-276 (64.28 - 75.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You're actually hitting harder with a CB Return than a boosted Facade. Besides, Thick Fat is actually a great ability, because it gives Snorlax a lot of easy switch-in opportunities on Fire Blasts, Ice Beams, etc. With Poison Heal, it's not giving offensive Snorlax sets THAT much to work with other than a boosted Facade and a two turn Leftovers recovery, but like I mentioned earlier, Snorlax is like a hit and run wall breaker in OU, not something that's going to be staying in. Posion Heal wouldn't really help Snorlax that much, and it sure as hell wouldn't make it OU again. It would make it a much more reliable offensive tank in UU, but that's UU, not OU.

 

[GCSChris]

Agreeing that Snorlax wouldn't be OU with poison heal. Also, it doesn't really make sense flavor wise. His speed is too low, plus Gen V is the gen of fighting types, so normal kinda sucks, especially defensively. Like Gary said, Thick Fat is already an amazing ability, as fire and ice are great resistances. IMO it's waaaay better and more useful than Poison heal, especially in OU where HP-Ice/Ice beam are everywhere because of dragons (although snorlax sucks in OU even with thick fat, because again he's fighting weak).

 

[soulgazer]

Alot of pokemon with the ability Immunity end up with another ability which boost it's power when toxic'd, or get an ability like Poison Heal ( See Zangoose, Gligar/Gliscor, etc) so I guess it could be possible. I would still run Thick Fat, though.

 

[MikeDawg]

I don't think that poison heal snorlax would function as a strong facade attacker

Moreso a special wall.

It has absurd special bulk, only aided by thick fat.

It would be a very nice alternative to the likes of the pink blobs due to its ability to hit back relatively hard.

It could even pursuit latis/whatever after switching into a dmeteor.

I don't think it would be a particularly outstanding poke, but it would certainly be viable

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

What if there was a Rock or Steel type attack that used the user's defence stat in the damage calculation, instead of it's attack stat?
Similar to how Foul Play uses the target's attack instead of the user's attack in the damage calculation.
This would give many walls a much higher offensive presence, while encouraging full investment into their bulk.
Would lower tier walls like Steelix, Bastiodon, Shuckle, etc. rise in usage due to their increased offensive presence?