Resource SV OU Viability Ranking Thread [ UPDATE: POST #751 ]

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I feel like getting roasted today so fuck it

Nominating :dragonite: to S-.

I think this mon is absolutely fucking stupid and deserves to be in the running for a suspect test as much as Volcarona and Kingambit. It's kind of the lovechild of both Volc and Gambit - entire matchups can be coinflipped depending on whether or not Nite Teras, and Tera Normal E-Speed is fucking bullshit at +1.

"wHy dON't yOu jUSt rUN a GhOSt or StEEl tYpE?" Because it's near impossible to check or counter this thing with those types, due to three other factors: Multiscale, Nite's natural bulk, and Nite's wide coverage.

Ghosts:

:dragapult:? Gets outsped if Nite is Jolly and at +1, gets OHKOed by +1 Ice Spinner.

:skeledirge:? Gets 2HKOed by Earthquake, can burn Nite with WoW but can't do jackshit to it with Hex if Nite Teras, and if Nite is bulky with Roost Dirge just outright loses the war of attrition.

:zoroark-hisui:? Gets outsped at +1 and fucking murked by any coverage move.

:gholdengo:? Gets bodied by Earthquake, or if Air Balloon, Fire Punch. Scarf outspeeds +1 Nite but has to Tera to even guarantee the OHKO with Focus Blast EVEN WHEN MULTISCALE IS BROKEN, which leaves it vulnerable to E-Speed. Defensive Hex + TWave sets suffer the same problem as Dirge, except worse because E-Speed nullifies the speed cut from para.

:ceruledge:? Gets fucking murdered by +1 EQ.

Steels:

:gholdengo:? See above.

:iron treads:? LMAOOOOOOOO IMAGINE RUNNING IRON TREADS (also dies to EQ)

:orthworm:? Believe it or not, one of the more feasible checks thanks to Earth Eater and Body Press. However, Fire Punch still does a good chunk, and not having any method of immediate recovery hurts.

:corviknight:? Another decent check, but Fire Punch still takes a big chunk out of Corv's HP, and Corv's most reliable way of damaging Nite, Body Press, isn't even guaranteed to 2HKO after Multiscale has been broken.

:scizor:? Kid named Fire Punch: (Also +1 EQ still is a 2HKO even if Nite isn't running Fire Punch, and in a Roost-less Sciziety, that sucks balls.)

:kingambit:?: Seems like a good check at first glance thanks to Sucker Punch... until you realize that, even with Supreme Overlord at max and Multiscale broken, Sucker Punch at neutral is STILL ONLY A 2HKO. You can't set up because EQ is a coinflip to OHKO.

"wHAt aBOuT pHYsICalLY dEFenSIvE wALlS aNd pRIorITy uSErs?"

Priority: E-Speed LMAOOOOO.

Only move E-Speed doesn't out-prioritize is Sucker Punch, which has two viable users aside from Gambit: :cinderace: and :meowscarada:. Ace can only guarantee a 3HKO with Sucker Punch, and Meow can only 2HKO if it is Band. Both drop like flies to E-Speed.

Physically Defensive Walls:

:garganacl:? EQ.

:great tusk:? Ice Spinner. Also physdef sets don't even run CC OR Ice Spinner so have fun ig :zany: An especially Tera dependent matchup since Nite can wall Tusk with CC if it doesn't Tera and handle Tusk with Ice Spinner if it does Tera.

:toxapex:? EQ. Can at least Haze, but guess what? EQ still is a 2HKO from neutral.

:amoonguss:? Fire Punch and Ice Spinner both 2HKO at +1, but one of the better checks thanks to Clear Smog and Spore.

:dondozo:? The one reliable check I could find. Eats up Nite's attacks for days and bops it with Body Press

So in order to reliably deal with a Nite at +1, you have to have at least one of the following:

1: A Dondozo, the worst of the three defensive waters available in the tier right now.
2: An Amoonguss that has safely been brought in at a range where Fire Punch or Ice Spinner do not OHKO.
3: An Orthworm in a post-Shed Tail ban meta, while also praying to Arceus that this Nite doesn't have Fire Punch.
4: A Corviknight with Body Press, which handicaps it even further against Gholdengo.
5: A Kingambit at max Supreme Overlord power (which requires the rest of your team being dead), while also praying to Arceus that you don't lose the coinflip for EQ to OHKO.

Dragonite is clearly just as tier-warping as Kingambit and Volcarona, and should be ranked alongside at least the latter. You have to slot in Pokemon with lower viability, cripple your Pokemon's moveset, sack the entire rest of your team, or rely on RNG just to have a prayer at being able to handle it. It's been one of the most consistent and hard-to-handle threats in the metagame from the start, and unless Tera gets outright banned in the future, I don't see this changing any time soon.
 
Only move E-Speed doesn't out-prioritize is Sucker Punch, which has two viable users aside from Gambit: :cinderace: and :meowscarada:. Ace can only guarantee a 3HKO with Sucker Punch, and Meow can only 2HKO if it is Band. Both drop like flies to E-Speed.
Minor thing but Extreme Speed does out-prioritize Sucker Punch (which is only +1 priority). The only damaging move that can out-prioritize Extreme Speed is Fake Out, and First Impression ties.
 
I feel like getting roasted today so fuck it

Nominating :dragonite: to S-.

I think this mon is absolutely fucking stupid and deserves to be in the running for a suspect test as much as Volcarona and Kingambit. It's kind of the lovechild of both Volc and Gambit - entire matchups can be coinflipped depending on whether or not Nite Teras, and Tera Normal E-Speed is fucking bullshit at +1.

"wHy dON't yOu jUSt rUN a GhOSt or StEEl tYpE?" Because it's near impossible to check or counter this thing with those types, due to three other factors: Multiscale, Nite's natural bulk, and Nite's wide coverage.

Ghosts:

:dragapult:? Gets outsped if Nite is Jolly and at +1, gets OHKOed by +1 Ice Spinner.

:skeledirge:? Gets 2HKOed by Earthquake, can burn Nite with WoW but can't do jackshit to it with Hex if Nite Teras, and if Nite is bulky with Roost Dirge just outright loses the war of attrition.

:zoroark-hisui:? Gets outsped at +1 and fucking murked by any coverage move.

:gholdengo:? Gets bodied by Earthquake, or if Air Balloon, Fire Punch. Scarf outspeeds +1 Nite but has to Tera to even guarantee the OHKO with Focus Blast EVEN WHEN MULTISCALE IS BROKEN, which leaves it vulnerable to E-Speed. Defensive Hex + TWave sets suffer the same problem as Dirge, except worse because E-Speed nullifies the speed cut from para.

:ceruledge:? Gets fucking murdered by +1 EQ.

Steels:

:gholdengo:? See above.

:iron treads:? LMAOOOOOOOO IMAGINE RUNNING IRON TREADS (also dies to EQ)

:orthworm:? Believe it or not, one of the more feasible checks thanks to Earth Eater and Body Press. However, Fire Punch still does a good chunk, and not having any method of immediate recovery hurts.

:corviknight:? Another decent check, but Fire Punch still takes a big chunk out of Corv's HP, and Corv's most reliable way of damaging Nite, Body Press, isn't even guaranteed to 2HKO after Multiscale has been broken.

:scizor:? Kid named Fire Punch: (Also +1 EQ still is a 2HKO even if Nite isn't running Fire Punch, and in a Roost-less Sciziety, that sucks balls.)

:kingambit:?: Seems like a good check at first glance thanks to Sucker Punch... until you realize that, even with Supreme Overlord at max and Multiscale broken, Sucker Punch at neutral is STILL ONLY A 2HKO. You can't set up because EQ is a coinflip to OHKO.

"wHAt aBOuT pHYsICalLY dEFenSIvE wALlS aNd pRIorITy uSErs?"

Priority: E-Speed LMAOOOOO.

Only move E-Speed doesn't out-prioritize is Sucker Punch, which has two viable users aside from Gambit: :cinderace: and :meowscarada:. Ace can only guarantee a 3HKO with Sucker Punch, and Meow can only 2HKO if it is Band. Both drop like flies to E-Speed.

Physically Defensive Walls:

:garganacl:? EQ.

:great tusk:? Ice Spinner. Also physdef sets don't even run CC OR Ice Spinner so have fun ig :zany: An especially Tera dependent matchup since Nite can wall Tusk with CC if it doesn't Tera and handle Tusk with Ice Spinner if it does Tera.

:toxapex:? EQ. Can at least Haze, but guess what? EQ still is a 2HKO from neutral.

:amoonguss:? Fire Punch and Ice Spinner both 2HKO at +1, but one of the better checks thanks to Clear Smog and Spore.

:dondozo:? The one reliable check I could find. Eats up Nite's attacks for days and bops it with Body Press

So in order to reliably deal with a Nite at +1, you have to have at least one of the following:

1: A Dondozo, the worst of the three defensive waters available in the tier right now.
2: An Amoonguss that has safely been brought in at a range where Fire Punch or Ice Spinner do not OHKO.
3: An Orthworm in a post-Shed Tail ban meta, while also praying to Arceus that this Nite doesn't have Fire Punch.
4: A Corviknight with Body Press, which handicaps it even further against Gholdengo.
5: A Kingambit at max Supreme Overlord power (which requires the rest of your team being dead), while also praying to Arceus that you don't lose the coinflip for EQ to OHKO.

Dragonite is clearly just as tier-warping as Kingambit and Volcarona, and should be ranked alongside at least the latter. You have to slot in Pokemon with lower viability, cripple your Pokemon's moveset, sack the entire rest of your team, or rely on RNG just to have a prayer at being able to handle it. It's been one of the most consistent and hard-to-handle threats in the metagame from the start, and unless Tera gets outright banned in the future, I don't see this changing any time soon.
Saying all of these Pokémon don’t wall it effectively because of Dragonite’s coverage options is kind of meaningless on a Dragon Dance set. It’s not going to be fitting Extreme Speed, Fire Punch, Earthquake, and Ice Spinner all on one set, so at least something is going to wall it.
 
Saying all of these Pokémon don’t wall it effectively because of Dragonite’s coverage options is kind of meaningless on a Dragon Dance set. It’s not going to be fitting Extreme Speed, Fire Punch, Earthquake, and Ice Spinner all on one set, so at least something is going to wall it.
When talking about overall viability it matters. While Dragonite does have a pretty big case of 4MSS, having such a wide movepool means it essentially gets to pick and choose what checks it. There are answers to dnite but most of them lose or at least have a hard time dealing with it depending on what it runs. Being able to exert so much pressure in this way makes it deserving of being ranked alongside Pult and especially Volc imo
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
Quick nom

:Cyclizar: from UR to B

It has a good amount of utility, regen, knock off, spin, U-turn, good move pool. And that allows the player to cut corners and make slots for other stuff. Don't bother with mix utility sets with Draco to hit tusk, unironically go Choice Band Double Edge on full offense as a side breaker. It's never gonna win you a game, but its going to help
 
:skeledirge:? Gets 2HKOed by Earthquake, can burn Nite with WoW but can't do jackshit to it with Hex if Nite Teras, and if Nite is bulky with Roost Dirge just outright loses the war of attrition.
Dnite has to actually click eq on switch for a 2hko, assuming dirge is spdef and not phys. But even then, dirge teras and stills walls, if it really needs to.

ID boosts along it. Curse also walls it. Bonus points with tera.

:great tusk:? Ice Spinner. Also physdef sets don't even run CC OR Ice Spinner so have fun ig :zany: An especially Tera dependent matchup since Nite can wall Tusk with CC if it doesn't Tera and handle Tusk with Ice Spinner if it does Tera.
Ice spinner doesnt even come close to an OHKO on offensive tusk, and if dnite teras it can be handily checked.

You also ignored rotomw, who walls dnite entirely and pressures with burns. Volcarona can also soft check with flame body and wisp threats. Ceruledge (who i find mid and overrated af but eh) walls with tera bug sets. Even uncommon mons like Hands or specific mons like Scream Tail can help play around it. Dnite is centralizing but unlike mons like Pult and Volc, it has enough checks and soft checks that it rarely just autowins if it sets up. Shed tail ban also hurts it a fair bit. And 4mss means that not having the right coverage leaves it walled in some matchups.

So whilw dnite is a centralizing threat, it isnt more dangerous than Iron Valiant or even Garganacl. So i l personally think its fine in A+.
 
:skeledirge:? Gets 2HKOed by Earthquake, can burn Nite with WoW but can't do jackshit to it with Hex if Nite Teras, and if Nite is bulky with Roost Dirge just outright loses the war of attrition.
You're REALLY underselling Will-o-Wisp here. You'll survive Earthquake and once Nite is burned the sweep is over then and there. As the other commenter mentioned, Rotom can also do this and completely walls anything Dragonite can throw at it. Fire Punch and Ice Spinner are also not often run over Roost at this point and generally you'll only see one of the 3 since ESpeed Dance and EQ are pretty essential.

If being difficult to stop once it has boosts up makes a Pokémon S-, then there's a LOT of S- mons in the tier.
 
In fact, if Dragonite ever goes to S Rank, it will be due to either Band or Special sets. Standart DD at this point looks mediocre most of the time, Band and Special (either 3 attacks + Roost or Specs) are way more dangerous to prepare for. And no, those sets are still not enough for S rank.
 
Nominating
1682263244150.png
to B+ rank

The following set is the one I'm basing the nomination on:

Sandy Shocks @ Expert Belt
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 48 Def / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch
- Tera Blast

With this set, you achieve a wide range of coverage.
1682263546619.png


Before continuing further, I urge you to look at your current teams in the builder. Now tell me, how many teams have at least 3+ mons weak to at least one of these types? Yeah, thought as much. In fact, the only ou mons right now NOT weak to all 3 types are volcarona, amoonguss, hatterene, zoroark-h, iron leaves, orthworm (earth eater) and rotom w (levitate). Other lower tier honorable mentions include arboliva, toedscruel, scream tail, blissey, sylveon and kilowattrel.

This is an important point to bring up, as the current shape of the meta is such that a sandy shocks with a protosynthesis speed boost in sun can put in lots of work against the majority of the most commonly used mons. Also, the majority of the aforementioned mons can be volt switched on, letting other teammaters beat them up instead (especially in sun, which is where the above set is most optimal). Thanks to the speed boost from protosynthesis in sun, you also threaten to outspeed the entire unboosted meta, bar wake/moon/booster valiant/moth, letting you make the most of the aforementioned super effective coverage. Even bulkier playstyles aren't safe either, due to the threat of super effective coverage; blissey hard walls it, but with repeated volt switches on the switch, it too can be quite pressured.

Additionally, the fairy type granted to the mon by tera boasts a variety of benefits; most notably letting you fully dispatch the various dragons roaming the tier, as well as immediately eliminate unsuspecting great tusks, paving the way for any teammates troubled by it, while additionally turning the tables on foes like wake, moon and meowscarada (and breloom, but due to it being commonly sashed, this is quite risky). All of these traits make the mon a superb choice for sun teams, letting them keep up the pressure against opposing offense, while covering up for the various grass types that wall it.

Of course, the mon is far from perfect. Even with expert belt, its damage output is only moderate, especially without fully invested special attack, which can sometimes cause you to just barely miss out on KOs; this is an issue further exacerbated by the fact that, while many teams are weak to its collective coverage moves, many of them DO feature at least 1-2 mons weak to each individual stab, forcing your prediction game to be on point to get the most of the mon itself, and most importantly, the limited sun turns (this is especially notable for amoonguss, which basically fully regenerates off your earth power damage and comes in for basically free as a result, multiple times). This point is further accentuated by the mon's relatively modest bulk; while it can definitely take 1-2 neutral hits, it has no way to sustain itself, and many stronger attacks can 2hko it easily, making it even more important to catch the correct targets on the switch. Finally, the mon being restricted to one archetype will of course hold it back from going any higher, due to the various limitations coming along with it. This is doubly the case, considering the majority of the post so far has been focusing on your use of tera on the mon, which can be limiting to the rest of the team, especially if your given matchup may require a different tera instead.

Despite all the above drawbacks, however, I believe this is the perfect time for shocks to shine, more than ever, right now before home arrives. I encourage everyone to try the mon out and make the most of it while they can! Also, I'm making this post based primarly off of the above set used on sun teams; I haven't really tried any other set with it so far (tried out tera ice for a bit but the defensive profile was underwhelming, and the coverage just didn't feel all that; it'll probably be required for the mon to keep up once home arrives with its various additions to take on its current elec/ground/fairy coverage). Lastly, some replays will be shown below for proof on the mon's viability; while not all of them were wins; they should do a good enough job to illustrate the pressure the mon can put up in the right conditions.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1849824354-vsvc3wlsaoi762oibj7f1ob8tfc5dpwpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1849853677-h6ddbq4gv3vg0vc10dum1zmxkrf2wqipw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1849856210-jdq92czis8r6jnanne4vahdto5x1onlpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1849861080-rxg6j81aw7co0wrauyyz9rzmi7vmulcpw
 
There's a few mons on the VR That seem like they should be on the same level as mons they are exclusively paired with but for some reason they are a rank or two off.

1682263951509.png
Walking Wake from A to A-. Now that the dust has settled regarding WW I think it is a bit weird for it to be ranked above Torkoal as that implies that WW is viable to a strong level without sun which it simply isn't. Sun teams as a whole have had their fallibility been brought to a more clear light with people desperately looking to find answers to the wake but they have mostly been found in many common defensive checks such as Clodsire, Terra Water garg (which 6-0s most sun teams), Slowking and so on but alongside this WW wake suffers too much from simply being very easy to revenge kill, even assuming it runs peed on its boost there's a plethora of mons who can come in and strongly threaten it from Kingambit as it does not resist Sucker Punch, Dnite with multiscale and extreme speed, Booster energy Valiant and even a few options like Azu who threaten to simply live what gets thrown at it and ohko it in return. WW has too much counterplay to justify being on the same level as mons like Roaring Moon, Tinglu, Baxcalibur or rotom W who are all consistently going to be mons who offer a multi dimensional threat level.


Walking Wake in practice is not an A rank mon and should be more accurately ranked next to torkoal as it is only really a consistently useful mon on Sun.

On the other side of the Weather coin

1682264438805.png
From B- to B

In my opinion at least in this generation Floatzel is a key stable of modern rain, although imo rain is not nearly as potent as sun due to worse abusers and the setter (being absolutely dogshit) less flexible than Torkoal it is clearly still viable, although Pelipper can have some minor viability with a specs set I think in practice said set really isnt that good, it has nice calcs but it really struggles to actually switch into most things and make an impact, I think we all agree that Pelipper is ranked almost entirely for its Rain setting abilities and as such I think it only makes sense for Floatzel to be ranked alongside it., there are a distinct lack of OU mons who want to consistently switch into Floatzel with even staples like Pex not being free from the possibility of a 2hko, despite that it suffers from being easily worn down from passive damage, recoil, being scared of revenge killed by strong priority and other popular mons like Terra water Garg, dondozo and Amoongus. I find Floatzel a lot more comparable to WW than what most people would originally think, It only makes sense to me to rank Floatzel next to Pelipper as without Floatzel rain is kind of dogshit.

1682265101663.png
B+ to A-

From my experience I believe that Azumarill is very underrated in the current meta but not for its traditional Bdrum sets or Band but the encore variant, With Encore + Terra Fire it is extremely easy to find opportunities for Azumaril to simply just win games, outside of functioning as a solid blanket check to many very scary mons and having decent revenge killing with priority, It also has a favourable matchup into two of the three aware mons. Azumaril manages to 2hko Unaware clodsire with Aqua jet or OHKOs with Liquidation as well as ohkos it if it runs water absorb with +6 play rough, while wisp dirge acts as a strong counter to many would be sweeps with encore + terra fire or just regular terra fire it manages to turn that MU on its head and creates another easy opportunity for Azumaril to sweep. Alongside this it has a favourable matchup into Kingambit, potentially using it as a wincon with encore. I don't believe Azumaril's power is reflected accurately alongside mons like Scizor and Ceruledge and that it is instead around the same potency level as A- mons such as Chomp, Hydriegon and Iron Moth. Azu wins too many games to be ranked as low as it is, obviously it is still threatened and cannot act to its full potential versus mons such as Amoongus and Dondozo but that would be reflected by being just A-

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
Tera Type: Fire/Water/Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Encore/Liquidation
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough

(Terra Depends on which MU you care about the most, I believe fire is the best)


1682265758950.png
Glimmora A- to A

Glimmora is the Premier HO mon for obvious reasons, it has an amazing signature ability and passive, actually threatens spinners and opposing leads with its high SPattack and coverage. Glimmora has a stunningly high amount of usage for what seems like a one dimensional suicide lead, and with the removal of shed tail it's popularity will only Increase, I think a rise to A will properly reflect Glimmora's place in the meta.


1682269504765.png
Greninja A- To B+

I'm not too informed regarding Greninja as I could be, but from my experience playing vs it it just seems very underwhelming, it's coverage and utility just isn't as useful as other mons in A- and I rarely see it having a lot of impact upon games. I'm really interested in starting a discussion on Greninja as from my perspective it doesn't seem that useful in this meta.
 
A- Rank

Amoonguss
Clodsire
Corviknight
Garchomp
Glimmora
Greninja
Hatterene
Hydreigon
Iron Moth
Meowscarada
Orthworm
Skeledirge
Slowking
Torkoal
Zoroark-Hisui

I would like to state that it feels like half the meta is clumped here, and there is obviously some in this A- rank that is better than others. I recommend moving some of the better ones above and some of the worse ones below. Orthworm will not be mentioned as it is too obvious it will drop

Meowscarada should go to A tier. It is argubally on tier with Cinderace and Rotom-Wash, and it is the second fastest mon in the meta. 110 attack is not that bad, as its signature move is effectively 105 base power with 100 accuracy and no drawbacks, and Knock Off is always helpful. Despite 4MSS this mon is still very powerful, and is quite versatile.
Glimmora is another A tier candidate. It is often dismissed as a suicide lead hazard setter, but its special attack is not to be laughed at. It is slightly weaker than Gholdengo and Volcarona, but it is quite powerful especially since it is usually unexpected. It also sets up toxic spikes even if it is choiced, asserting further pressure.
Greninja should drop to B+ IMO. It does not do that much and the pressure it causes is relatively little. It is often outclassed by Meowscarada and being slower does not help. It is also outclassed by Walking Wake as a special water-type attacker most of the time, but Protean is helpful.
Amoonguss and Breloom should swap positions. It is very easy for Breloom to get off a spore with its high power and strong Mach Punch, while Amoon does not do much outside of getting off one spore and being a defensive regen pivot. Clear Smog doesn't do much outside of stopping a potential Volcarona or Dragonite sweep, but Spore does effectively the same thing. Breloom suffers from 4MSS with its coverage, but generally still is a better mon. (Amoon to B and Breloom to A-)

Another note is :sableye: Sableye. It has a small niche of being able to burn something like Great Tusk or Dragonite, and has a good defensive typing. It is immune to Extreme Speed, so it can stop a Dragonite that has setted up, and it even has Recover compared to Grimmsnarl. This tricky mon has a place, however niche, in the metagame.
Quagsire to C because it's Quagsire :quagsire:
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
Alright been experiencing some of the new meta shifts down under in Australia, sadly, I missed today's Stours, so I can't say what's the big elitist meta, but ill do some noms here and there. Besides, this helps to activate the thread and get some discussion going, so yay for me


:Meowscarada: from A- to A

I super agree with this thing moving, band hits like a hard truck, scarf is a better cleaner than booster valiant, lead sets are decent, and there's still underexplored options, its a consistent mon that will always deliver on what are you trying to do

Quagsire to C because it's Quagsire :quagsire:
Quagsire to the same spot as Clodsire because the cute babies must go together, they are so cute, just look at these babys :Quagsire: :clodsire:


:Glimmora: from A- to A

Since the orthworm ban, the HO bitcoin holders have been searching from some options, and on the majority of cases, Hazard Vomit HO is the new rule, one thing I have been noticing is the use of Power Gem more, to catch birds and Bugs off guard

:Walking Wake: from A to A-

I think it's fair that sun is Torkoal + Tusk + Hatterene + Walking Wake, since Tusk is great alone and is perfect on S, the other 3 should stay together, I know both rene and wake have different niches outside of sun, but most of the time you see them in there anyway, kind of what happens with Pelipper + Mega Swampert + Manaphy. Back to wake tho, it's more than manageable both on offense and on defense, and the eject pack draco bombing deals as much damage as a cheeseburger. Agility + booster SpA can be seen from a mile coming, but they can be a bit dangerous. I got sniped out of round 3 of this week's stour by an Aqua Jet Wake, which is kinda heat but meh, overall, pretty okay but not A material

:Iron Hands: from C+ to either B- or B

Iron Hands @ Punching Glove
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

I have been using this set, 96 HP ensures you live a banded play rough from the meowster at full, and 160 speed is to trip sub dirge in an emergency, and can potentially trip corvs who invest for gambit. On this less fast-paced bulky meta, is a cool mon that can almost always kill a thing or two on his way down, tera water is cool it helps with general tankiness, and in this case is cool because Drain Punch + Punching Glove means Garga cannot set up shit in front of you. I think it's more viable than Quaquaval tbh, never been sold on the mon

:Talonflame: from C to C+

Just a tiny change in placement, I think Talonflame is the best flying type defogger in the game right now, which is fucking grim to be honest, thanks to flame body, it can potentially be an emergency check to most physical attackers not named Baxcalibur, meow for example gets absolutely denied with this, and Kingambit can also get burned on contact or at least force tera fire or lum berry. And stuff like Fat Balance and Stall love this thing

:Orthworm: from A- to C+
bogdanoff-phone-call.png
 

viivian

beep boop
is a Tiering Contributor
In fact, if Dragonite ever goes to S Rank, it will be due to either Band or Special sets. Standart DD at this point looks mediocre most of the time, Band and Special (either 3 attacks + Roost or Specs) are way more dangerous to prepare for. And no, those sets are still not enough for S rank.
special :dragonite:? honestly sounds like it'd be hard outclassed considering how many special attacking dragon types are prevalent in this meta, like :dragapult:, :hydreigon:, :walking_wake: and so forth. feels like it would be outdone by all of them but i'd like to hear why that set has risen in popularity

regardless, i do think :dragonite: is worthy of a rise at this point in time. it's like :volcarona: in the sense that it has so many viable options in what it can run, such as ice spinner, fire punch, outrage or roost, that it can pretty much choose its checks and counters at a whim, and even its selection of tera types can vary. normal is obviously the most prevalent but the likes of fire, steel and fairy could very well see good use in a ton of common scenarios. i really don't see how that shouldn't be at least considered for S-

two other dragons i think should rise (again) is the previously mentioned :hydreigon: as well as :baxcalibur:. both are amazing at ripping apart common defensive cores with their STABs, be it with NP/DD or band/specs sets, and can very easily run off with the game if one gives them a free turn to set up. their bulk as well as their variety of useful resistances is really helpful in coming in and attempting to set up, with :hydreigon: resisting a ton of common attacking types (fire, water, dark, ground, etc.) whereas :baxcalibur: has less resistances but can freely come in on the likes of :skeledirge: and :rotom_wash: due to not fearing burns, giving it far more setup opportunities than most other sweepers. not to mention the choiced sets, which both smash unaware walls like :dondozo: and :clodsire: that would otherwise try to switch in on the setup sets, as well as being terrifyingly powerful on their own. these two are just so good at exploiting a lot of defensive presences and winning games off of them that i think they deserve to rise to A and A+, respectively.

(NOTE: i'm never using the pokemon icons this frequently ever again)
 
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1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
special :dragonite:? honestly sounds like it'd be hard outclassed considering how many special attacking dragon types are prevalent in this meta, like :dragapult:, :hydreigon:, :walking_wake: and so forth. feels like :dragonite: would be hard outclassed by all of them but i'd like to hear why that set has risen in popularity
I have been using Specs Dnite as a meme set (shoutouts to Fancy1 for the idea)

IT LIVES AND DIES by the Hurricane ratio, nothing is ever guaranteed with this set, but it's the rare tusk lure set that feels actually useful outside luring tusk (looking at you chainchomp) if hurricane fails, you're dying, and you're not doing shit about it

But man, if this thing hits, you always drop something, you'll experience both incredible highs and depressing lows with this thing, but try it, ill admit, its not that bad. Besides, side priority + multiscale is cool, dnite is the bulkiest of them all and has the best priority too

Dragonite @ Choice Specs
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Hurricane
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
 
Just echoing a comment from the thread on metagame discussion.

these 6 Pokémon’s are so ahead of the rest of the options in terms of achieving outcomes, it’s kinda ridiculous.

:great tusk: S
:kingambit:S
:dragapult:Whatever is sub S
:dragonite:Whatever is sub S
:Volcarona:Whatever is sub S
:garganacl:Whatever is sub S


tusk and gambit have a special place as they’re great on all teams, and their greatness is independent of team structure

after the big 6, the next best in terms of viability, can’t even hold a candle to them. I’d argue it’s cinderace or maybe meowscarada. As they achieve outcomes well too. Gholdengo less so, as it’s more of a defensive asset that fails to make progress in less favourable matchups. Valiant is interesting, but once the set is guessed it can be easily made functionally useless. All the others do not have this constraint.

A quick visual summary:

:gholdengo: a heavy weight to carry against a team that is faster tempo than yours or when on the back foot. An asset against most other teams

:iron valiant: excellent if you can keep it a secret to the end game in a favourable matchup. Otherwise offers very little utility unless it’s a specs/scarf set that surprises the opponent and you also get your 50/50’s right.

:roaring moon: great Pokémon with niche favourable matchups that are hard to find. Not that great due to its tendency to be a one hit wonder in most games. It’s sets outside of booster energy are mediocre at best.

:cinderace: excellent Pokémon for its purpose. It will cause the opponent to reconsider their hazard plays and allows you to control the tempo with your predictions. Strong fire STAB and options to add u turn or sucker punch keep it relevant in all matchups.

:meowscarada: again, excellent for its purpose. Either use it for favourable matchups against most offense structures, or make it a disruptive/tempo asset.

:toxapex: :ting Lu: :corviknight: and other misc Pokémon that are mostly defensive are less viable. I think this is due to their purpose mostly being a defensive plug to stop anything your team is weak to, or alternatively in a very bulky or stall based team. Their limitation is currently that each of them has some Pokémon’s in the S or A ranks that just completely take advantage of them and make strong progress. Ting Lu is a special case, as only strong u turns can “take advantage” of it, and it has incredible bulk.

Volcarona gets a lot of attention, although I think its amazingness is overrated by a lot of the community. The thing is you always have to plan for your Volcarona check or a check to it’s partner.

I’ve won so many games because a player has allowed their Garchomp to get to 50% in order to set hazards, or their dragonite is left until the end game despite being the best volc check they have, whilst their dondozo instead gets taken to 50% and can no longer switch into Volcaronas partnered kingambit.

people get very linear in their game plans and Volcarona is the type of threat you need to have adaptive game planning for. Of course you will lose if you’re relying on a Tera fire kingambit, but you end up Tera fairying on your dragapult because it’s behind a sub and you wanted to surprise the revenge attempt from the other dragapult.
 
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tusk and gambit have a special place as they’re great on all teams, and their greatness is independent of team structure
Gambit has a place on all teams? What about stall teams? Gambit is an offensive sweeper. It provides defensive utility with its bulk and typing but it’s not there for support or to wall certain Pokémon.
 
Gambit has a place on all teams? What about stall teams? Gambit is an offensive sweeper. It provides defensive utility with its bulk and typing but it’s not there for support or to wall certain Pokémon.
admittedly I don’t make stall teams, you’d have to ask highvoltage or other stall team designers to chime in there.
 
Gambit has a place on all teams? What about stall teams? Gambit is an offensive sweeper. It provides defensive utility with its bulk and typing but it’s not there for support or to wall certain Pokémon.
As has been echoed, full Stall teams are increasingly hard to build, usually at this point they need some kind of offense or snowball option as a win condition, or at least something that works by attacking to remove certain threats (most extreme examples being past-Gen Dugtrio trapping).

Kingambit is actually pretty well-suited to this role because Sucker Punch mitigates fast HO opponents, he doesn't forfeit defensive utility to attack, and Supreme Overlord is pretty good for cleaning since Stall teams trying to survive long-term means the opponents will be more heavily worn-out by the time he hits the field with any KO'd boosts.
 
nominating
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to B rank

I think too many people saw the 140 attack and tried to use as a wall breaker or sweeper but the speed really lets it down in that aspect. Where iron hands shines is using its coverage and physical bulk to stop a sweep in its tracks, something that is desperately needed in a metagame where 1 turn is all it takes for a sweeper to run away with the game. here is my set and some relevant calcs

Iron Hands @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Def / 144 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 112 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands in Rain: 378-446 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 0 Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Floatzel: 350-414 (112.5 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

- +2 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands: 334-394 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 0 Atk Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 300-356 (92.8 - 110.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
(dont let it get 2 turns without breaking muliscale)

- 252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 112 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands on a critical hit: 157-186 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 8.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 0 Atk Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 290-344 (98.9 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

- +1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands: 306-360 (64.1 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- +1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 112 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands: 252-297 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 0 Atk Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 288-338 (82 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I dont think i need to show what it does to Kingambit, which had 41% usage last month.
 
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