Been there, done that. It's a gimmick that doesn't really work that well, IMO.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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In addition to being an unreliable gimmick, there is really nothing that can run it viably. Grimmsnarl is the only OU proper mon that would seem to benefit from it. But it loses out on way too much by dropping its support moves, and it's too slow. Grafaiai and Primeape could theoretically run it, but they are obviously lacking in bulk and power to keep up in OU. Tauros is really the only other mon I can think of here but it's still a very all or nothing strategy that really doesn't get you much in return. You are probably better off just running a SD sweeper and setting up on a forced switch.
torkoal dropping to uu is hilarioushere is what noobs want:
set up sun with torkoal → bring in chi-yu → tera-fire → scarf flamethrower GG
set up rain with pelipper → bring in floatzel → tera-water → banded wave crash GG
now that chi-yu is banned there is no reliable replacement for this sequence. that's why people transitioned from sun to rain
they're ass
and i'm saying that respectfully
also i was exaggerating when i made that comparison since banded tera-water wave crash is not actually "GG"
it's really hard to get consistent mileage out of floatzel when everything turns into a water-type to cut its "wall-breaking" short. garganacl, great tusk, ting-lu, skeledirge, etc.... a lot of uncomfortable situations even when floatzel comes in on something that it should theoretically have a type advantage vs
the massive insurgence of bunker pex and water absorb clodsire sucks too
and god does this thing suicide itself so fast. there's a real problem when you need to burn your tera on a 'mon that dies in 2-3 turns
i will say however that greninja in rain is broken. it's honestly the only 'mon saving this archetype from being unusable in serious play. run it on every rain. you're doing something wrong otherwise
sun is still the superior weather imo because it's (1) less reliant on its weather to function, (2) more versatile, and (3) its abusers are not 490bst shit 'mons:
great tusk turns into groudon in sun. offensive sun tusk literally has zero counter-play outside of your opponent's great tusk. this will cause a great tusk for a great tusk trade minimum
then roaring moon comes in with its choice band +speed set after their tusk dies. kills everything, a dragon dance upon switch-in is crazyyythere are other amazing abusers as well from ceruledge, cinderace, slither wing, volcarona, and iron moth to more niche options like sandy shocks, charizard, scream tail, scovillain, and brute bonnet
some sun samples:
storm zone sun - i have been enjoying this sun my brotha SZ made recently. iron moth in sun is unwallable and defensively it provides a lot absorbing tspikes and checking valiant/dengo. scream tail is also very slept on in sun. i think it has use outside of sun but imo it's best in sun because the defense boost lets it do heinous shit like hard-counter cb pao. a simple set of dazzling gleam / encore / protect / wish counter-teams all variants of offense & hyper offense (exhibit a / exhibit b). the fat wishes are also amazing to keep stuff like great tusk and torkoal alive in longer games. you can run flamethrower to apply some pressure on steels and amoonguss but i personally have found it hard to fit. if you're going to drop a move for flamethrower i'd personally drop wish. yes it seems ratchet at first glance & wish is amazing, but since sun is basically HO you can still live without it. please don't drop encore though, encore-less scream tail is ass
tpp sun - a friend of mine recreated then passed this sun to me last week so (A) some sets are prolly wrong & (B) didn't want to ask TPP himself cuz not sure if his team is planning to re-use this! anyways point is you bring in zard and it fucks the club up. it is the closest replacement to sun chi-yu in terms of power but it's still a zard at the end of the day so it's obviously not broken. slither wing in sun is slept on and one of the best abusers. i personally prefer offensive sets since first impression can carry entire games but this morning sun + wisp set TPP used is mad good too. utility, longevity, breaking, and pivoting all in 1 slot-- it did hella work when i was loading it on the ladder
vert sun - was very surprised to see this used in spl. if you told someone this team won you'd prolly assume the brute bonnet got pocketed but the reality is it killed everything. people sleep on this thing fr fr, deadly wall-breaker and spore is broken. ceruledge is another nasty 'mon in sun, +2 sun bitter blade x solar blade has no counter-play outside of skeledirge. the great tusk is defensive here but it's a necessity for opposing tusk. as you can see with the first 2 samples SZ has scream tail and TPP has zard + slither so they can get away with offensive tusk. sadly i don't have that luxury. more info in my brotha Mimikyu Stardust fire ass posttl;dr rain's usage stats don't mean shit. i don't think rain is even close to sun in terms of viability & consistency
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something I can't help but notice when building is just how often I feel pressured to stack psychic weaknesses, especially in the defensive aspect, between pex, amoongus, clodsire, the 2 tauros, and tusk, it feels like all too often I'm 3 mons into a team and I suddenly realize theres a massive psychic sized hole in my team, which in turn feels like I almost have to overcompensate for said weakness or rethink the team, anyone else share this sentiment?
this but fairy, honestly, fighting spam is kinda good in this meta, because there's not too many resists to all of them, the combination of Bulk Up Tusk and Loaded Dice Loom is insane, with that being said, all fun stops the moment you start seeing shit like specs psyshock valiant, psychic spam volcarona, extrasensory gren, a fucking scarf modest indeedee F out of fucking nowhere and hatterene
speaking of hatterene, half my teams are capable of 1v1 roll over her and the other half are incapable of even switching in because of the fear of the sheer coverage, this mon is kinda nuts actually
HARD AGREE
here is what noobs want:
set up sun with torkoal → bring in chi-yu → tera-fire → scarf flamethrower GG
set up rain with pelipper → bring in floatzel → tera-water → banded wave crash GG
now that chi-yu is banned there is no reliable replacement for this sequence. that's why people transitioned from sun to rain
they're ass
and i'm saying that respectfully
also i was exaggerating when i made that comparison since banded tera-water wave crash is not actually "GG"
View attachment 490098
it's really hard to get consistent mileage out of floatzel when everything turns into a water-type to cut its "wall-breaking" short. garganacl, great tusk, ting-lu, skeledirge, etc.... a lot of uncomfortable situations even when floatzel comes in on something that it should theoretically have a type advantage vs
the massive insurgence of bunker pex and water absorb clodsire sucks too
and god does this thing suicide itself so fast. there's a real problem when you need to burn your tera on a 'mon that dies in 2-3 turns
i will say however that greninja in rain is broken. it's honestly the only 'mon saving this archetype from being unusable in serious play. run it on every rain. you're doing something wrong otherwise
sun is still the superior weather imo because it's (1) less reliant on its weather to function, (2) more versatile, and (3) its abusers are not 490bst shit 'mons:
there are other amazing abusers as well from ceruledge, cinderace, slither wing, volcarona, and iron moth to more niche options like sandy shocks, charizard, scream tail, scovillain, and brute bonnet
some sun samples:
tl;dr rain's usage stats don't mean shit. i don't think rain is even close to sun in terms of viability & consistency
Rain is a novelty, and thats why people like it, because its no longer a boring ass thing to fight against like gen 8
Torkoal is underated
Torkoal @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Lava Plume
- Yawn
this set is the showdown usage set, and its ASS, stop using this shit
Torkoal @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Clear Smog
- Earth Power
this, on the other hand, has waaaaaaaay more utility, because you can now use torkoal as a mon that can trade with stuff like other torkoals, garganacl, ace, dnite, etc., denying set up sweepers in a meta where you're using 2 if you're not using banded pao can be a lifesaver, and this also let tusk become way more dangerous with a bulk up set, an AV set, and a banded/scarf set, and unlike rain, you have way more mons to work with, not just the proto mons, but also stuff like volcarona, iron moth, sylveon, dondozo, cinderace, hatterene, even skeleridge if you wanna say, fuck it we ball and slap solar beam and a sub alongside torch song and slack off, the playstyle needs more exploration tbh.
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is there a way where these 2 sets synergize with each other?
Imo fairy isn't nearly as threatening as psychic in this meta, and the reason is fairly simple for, reference:
resists fairy:
resists psychic:
resists both:
besides the mons that resists both, you notice that many of the fairy resists are very reliable and consistent defensive checks such as amoonguss, clodsire, skeledirge, and toxapex, or are offensive checks that can easily leverage the resist, with good natural bulk and/or threats of a sweep, such as volcarona, iron moth, and ceruledge
meanwhile, many of the psychic resists come moreso from more offensive and less reliable checks that rely on darks immunity, which is a problem when most users of psychic moves in ou are usually also packing fairy or fighting coverage (valiant, hatterene, espa), this leads to a scenario where checks to psychic either overlap with checks to fairy, or are actively less reliable than the fairy checks, I think they're both quite dangerous types currently, but I think overall psychic is a bit more deadly
2 set up sweepers with access to priority and hard hitting attacks that can revenge kill, bait the check mons and generate opportunities for the other, you will need something for corviknight tho, depending if you're on offense or defense, magnezone, gholdengo, garganacl, cinderace, iron moth, and stuff like that could work out
This is what tera fairy specs valiant does to the brain's dopamine receptors, but for real, your kinda right, and this is another reason why Slowking balance is gonna explode when pao gets banned
We may have another tiering survey very soon.
stop farming reaction score
Isn't it a bit trigger-happy to have another survey before the meta has even changed after Chien-Pao's eventual ban?
I understand that a sizable portion of the playerbase thinks that Espathra is a problem, but we can't know for sure that it won't be easier to prepare for Espathra after the Snow Leopard's ban is final since that'll be one less threat out of the way.
Also Garg/dengo but yeah this is a bit soon, I'm thinking it could potentially be about tera again, as it's kind of what's pushing these mons over the edge. Though I'm sure everything that's banned, would've been banned anyway, pao included.
I know someone asked about it a while ago, but as someone who was against tera initially, I think it's balanced out more now. Still kind of dumb from a gameplay perspective but not 'broken'. I still don't think it's something we should keep but it doesn't leave me upset that it's still available. Games don't hinge on it but very impactful, lot more than z moves imo. I'd need to see how home affects it to return to an actual negative view of it.
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People for generations complained about the lack of openness and transparency about our process. So now that I’m leader I’m dedicating hours of my time to inform my playerbase what’s going on with the tier they play and care about.
If you’re going to complain about me giving updates and others are going to complain about me not giving updates, then someone is going to be upset. I’ll choose you, gg
The metagame has changed a lot over the last three weeks or so. We believe another action is appropriate and then we will get closer to an ideal metagame. It is impossible to achieve a perfect data sample, but one right now is better than one from January or waiting multiple more weeks when Home will undo most of this and we want to get to a playable state.
I think the course of action should just be to quick ban Espa and Garg, especially since the Home update is creeping up, probably around Pokémon Day.
Action must be done, but Home (also if patterns say anything, another Tera Raid starter), is at the least three weeks away, so it's just a weird spot since it's creeping up extremely fast.
Action must be done, but Home (also if patterns say anything, another Tera Raid starter), is at the least three weeks away, so it's just a weird spot since it's creeping up extremely fast.
GARGANACL BOM BA-YE
GARGANACL BOM BA-YE
GARGANACL BOM BA-YE
GARGANACL BOM BA-YE!
But for real tho, I hope garga get a suspect before espatra, the bird has only been rising as a potential problem, garga is on the list for a long time, and I'm starting to get tired of playing chicken against a defensive mon who is a better wall break than most wall breakers in the tier, HOME is getting closer, so this is a good opportunity to clean house before receiving all the new mons back
ratio
I don't find Garganacl broken, so I hope there is no action taken on it. Espathra, on the other hand, is just a dumb mon that can get out of control quite quickly. If it didn't have the option to Tera, it would be a lot less of a threat, but Espathra is just a mindnumbingly dumb mon to use that is awful to face if you don't have a select few mons.
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if you’re going to use the home update as relevant, then garganacl will not be more oppressive, rather less so.
more competition for a Tera slot, and more threats that a covert cloak would be useful against.
So why are we banning Pokémon that will potentially come back a month from now? Isn’t it best to see how the meta is without pao before taking unnecessary actions. If home was in April or may I’d understand but march is literally three weeks away lol
Just got reqs, and I have some quick thoughts:
Pao is broken (this has been already established, especially when it spams Icicle Spear and gets 3-4 flinches in a row)
Espathra needs to go either by another suspect test or by quickban, it's way too much to handle in the current meta it's so easy to spam Calm Mind and then go change your tera to combat opposing mons looking to kill you as soon as possible and if the person doesn't have a dark or steel type it might be GG very quickly.
As the biggest advocate of banning Nacl, I'm changing my stance and I am now willing to admit I think Espathra needs to go before Nacl does.
Pao is broken (this has been already established, especially when it spams Icicle Spear and gets 3-4 flinches in a row)
Espathra needs to go either by another suspect test or by quickban, it's way too much to handle in the current meta it's so easy to spam Calm Mind and then go change your tera to combat opposing mons looking to kill you as soon as possible and if the person doesn't have a dark or steel type it might be GG very quickly.
As the biggest advocate of banning Nacl, I'm changing my stance and I am now willing to admit I think Espathra needs to go before Nacl does.
MTE. It'd be so pointless to suspect or qb other things like Garga & Pathra when they'll probably get unbanned when Home is up.
That’s exactly what I was thinking. It’s okay to have them on the radar but we are going to have official news of home release very soon. If the release is in march, I’d say the same as you did. Pleasing the meta for less than 3 weeks and then have it rapidly change when home is released is not worth the time imo. Not to mention when home is released in march. I’d probably not touch it since there are gonna be some crazier mons mentioned that are worse than what is on radar. I feel that when there is a release date then I would press forward but taking actions after pao banned (which happens this week) just isn’t worth the time to suspect or qb when those mons will have to get retested again and will probably pass the test anyways.
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Instructions unclear, gave reaction to Finchinator.
But to not make this a one liner, I am gonna guess Espathra, Garganacl, and Gholdengo will be the mons on the poll. Some sort of question on Terrastralize is also inevitable. I'll give my thoughts on each.
Espathra I would personally say is just unhealthy as heck for the tier. It just feels miserable to cue into it depending on the team. If you can consistently pressure it and make sure it can't just set up and win, congrats. But it just puts so much pressure in building because if you can't handle Espathra, you will lose. It also is one of the dumbest abusers of Terra, as with the right Terra type it can just snowball and get that one extra turn it needs for its stored powers to wipe your team. It also is just a feels bad mon. I don't feel good winning with it because its such a brutal MU check, and it feels miserable to play against. Even without Terra, I would still support this thing getting a look in the future.
Gholdengo and Garganacl I would prefer to wait it out. I personally do not think either is banworthy rn even if both are annoying in their own ways. We also have HOME right around the corner. I guarantee they will be announcing their date for HOME compatibility during their Pokemon Day presentation later this month (along with inevitable DLC info). We realistically only have time for one test, maybe two, before the floodgates open. HOME is going to bring so many meta relevant threats in all at once. Here is a short list of some mons that will imo at least have an OU niche.
Basculegion (RIP Last Respects)
Ursaluna
Enamourus
Sneasler
Kleavor
Spectrier (probably banned or quickbanned)
Urshifu S (Probably banned or quickbanned)
Urshifu R
Regieleki
Zarude
Rillaboom (If Grassy Glide is kill than maybe not, banded might be an ok wallbreaker at least)
Mageanra (Probably banned or quickbanned)
Volcanion
Hoopa Unbound
Chesnaught? (might not be total ass with Ferrothorn not here to overshadow it, probs is still meh)
Lando T
Thundurus T
Tornadus T
Samurott H
Heatran
Mew
Moltres
Moltres G
Zapdos
Zapdos G
Free Zamazenta also plz finch i promise he wont be a bad boy he will be a funny puppy.
Ursaluna
Enamourus
Sneasler
Kleavor
Spectrier (probably banned or quickbanned)
Urshifu S (Probably banned or quickbanned)
Urshifu R
Regieleki
Zarude
Rillaboom (If Grassy Glide is kill than maybe not, banded might be an ok wallbreaker at least)
Mageanra (Probably banned or quickbanned)
Volcanion
Hoopa Unbound
Chesnaught? (might not be total ass with Ferrothorn not here to overshadow it, probs is still meh)
Lando T
Thundurus T
Tornadus T
Samurott H
Heatran
Mew
Moltres
Moltres G
Zapdos
Zapdos G
Free Zamazenta also plz finch i promise he wont be a bad boy he will be a funny puppy.
That is a healthy injection of mons that will at least have some niche in OU, and I think in some ways this list was a bit conservative. We could get home as early as March or as late as May. We might have time for one to two more suspects before the flood gates open. We also will probably have to wait 1-2 weeks in between the suspects to see how the meta adjusts.
As for Terra, I do not think it was the factor that pushed any of our bans over the edge. Sure, Terra made a lot of them scarier, but much of what made them scary would have still been there without Terra in the metagame. Cyclizar would still have enabled so much cheese, Palafin and Annihilape would be terrifying set up sweepers, Houndstone would speed blitz the entire meta with Last Respects and cheese games, Chi Yu would nuke things still, and Iron Bundle and Flutter Mane would still outspeed almost the entire metagame while being fierce wallbreakers. Even our current suspect, Chien Pao, would still be a heavily problematic mon even with a Terra ban or restriction. Honestly, the only pokemon I think Terra outright pushes that close to the edge is Garganacl, who I personally do not think is banworthy.
IMO, the best course of action after our brief refractory period post Chien Pao's test would be to consider testing Espathra first. We will have a better idea of our HOME timeline then. If we have enough time, we can see if Garganacl, Gholdengo, or Terra are worth tackling before HOME.
Alright man, you have officially become public enemy number 1 in my book, I'm gonna hold grudges and resentment until the end of time
but honestly, if HOME is going to be in early March, then I'm not too sure actually, I think this is too little to run another test, I'm not gonna lie, I haven't run into enough espatras to say. But I think the meta can handle 3 weeks of espatra/gholdengo/gargnacl spam until HOME drops and see if gamefreak bless us with new defoggers. And as for TERA discussion, I think we should not get too heated with that until the insane stuff has been banned, and the new mons have a discovered attraction for some teras
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