Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Divine Retribution]

This isn't really possible. Dire Claw was not the only move with a secondary effect that has a percent chance to put the opponent to sleep. Relic Song, for instance. Effect Spore has a random chance to put the opponent to sleep. Under this clause, rather than simply having the effect not occur if it's rolled, you instantly lose the game from something out of your control. These are niche cases to be sure, but they are 100% possible in SV OU and need an answer. Not to mention the possibility that this would set precedent for future generations where even more stuff like this could be added.

I see utterly no reason not to just ban these specific moves/abilities, at least. Meloetta sees basically no usage in OU, and everything that gets Effect Spore gets a better ability that it almost always runs instead.

If it becomes a problem in the future, then we can re-evaluate. The only reasonably futureproof approach that solves all the issues that have been raised is to simply ban all Sleep moves, presumably including moves with Sleep as a side effect.

 

[June Heat]

Regardless of what other action we take, if we don't outright ban Sleep moves, I think it's imperative we make Sleep Clause cart-accurate. The simplest way to do this is to disallow the user to use another Sleep-inducing move while the opponent still has a Pokemon that has been put to sleep. If it's the only action the user can take, they lose (they've pretty much lost at that point anyways). In practice, this changes very little about the current Sleep Clause but it does prevent situations where you might use a Sleep move on a sleeping Pokemon in case it wakes up on that turn, which you obviously could not do under a gentleman's agreement on the carts.

I don't even think there should really be a debate when it comes to that, it should just be done. There's been literally no counter-argument brought up to this point other than that "it's been like that forever", which... isn't an argument. It changes very little and it eliminates one of the only deviations between Smogon formats and what can be replicated on the carts. There's basically no downside.

Agreed, it is kinda weird that the only two solutions to the problem are abolish it or leave it alone. Surely it's simple enough to implement.

 

[Heatranator]

This isn't really possible. Dire Claw was not the only move with a secondary effect that has a percent chance to put the opponent to sleep. Relic Song, for instance. Effect Spore has a random chance to put the opponent to sleep. Under this clause, rather than simply having the effect not occur if it's rolled, you instantly lose the game from something out of your control. These are niche cases to be sure, but they are 100% possible in SV OU and need an answer. Not to mention the possibility that this would set precedent for future generations where even more stuff like this could be added.

Easy, Dire claw and relic song could be either exceptions to the rule as they are not the main part of the move, relic song has a 10% chance to sleep so relying on that is nonsense and dire claw is on a mon is banned, or we ban those moves. Effect spore is a lot more difficult to balance, though the easy solution is just to ban it from OU (other tiers should decide because on something like vileplume it is it's best ability), it could just be an outlier. Nobody is using it in reality, would amoonguss use it over regenerator? No way.

Rule: No moves/abilities can be used whose Primary function is to sleep. If it is a random chance to cause sleep on top of another function i.e., cause damage or proc another status condition, then that move/ability is exempt from this rule.

Easy, simple, and fairly understandable, not many things fall into the latter category, so it techincally could be removed to just be the first sentence without the primary part.

 

[viol and bass]

Has anybody else messed around with Zarude? I've used it a bunch and it feels criminally underrated to me. It already saw some use in OU last gen, but it gained SO much this gen. It got Swords Dance, Knock Off, and Trailblaze, which is just an enormous leap in its threat level. It's very bulky on both sides, it outspeeds Deoxys-S after one Trailblaze, it resists Grassy Glide, Sucker Punch and Thunder Clap while having Close Combat / Drain Punch for Kingambit, and a strong Power Whip is really nice in this meta vs. shit like Tusk, Dozo, Garg, etc.

I think Swords Dance sets are the most effective, but Bulk Up is probably still viable and choiced sets seem really solid as well. I think another very viable option is something like Trailblaze / Knock / Power Whip or Close Combat / U-turn with Assault Vest or Protective Pads. Dude just has so many good options. I think its value over something like Meowscarada is it can actually switch into shit (Gholdengo for example). Its bulk even with a 252 atk / 252 spe spread is surprisingly good. Ogerpon is obviously serious competition as well, but Ghost, Dark and Electric resists, STAB Knock, better bulk, and getting to hold an item might be worth the tradeoffs in some cases.

It baits in Skarmory very reliably for what that's worth, so build around taking advantage of that.

Just definitely run a tera type that resists U-turn lol (I believe Fighting is the best option)

 

[YubelVT]

Easy, Dire claw and relic song could be either exceptions to the rule as they are not the main part of the move, relic song has a 10% chance to sleep so relying on that is nonsense and dire claw is on a mon is banned, or we ban those moves. Effect spore is a lot more difficult to balance, though the easy solution is just to ban it from OU (other tiers should decide because on something like vileplume it is it's best ability), it could just be an outlier. Nobody is using it in reality, would amoonguss use it over regenerator? No way.

Rule: No moves/abilities can be used whose Primary function is to sleep. If it is a random chance to cause sleep on top of another function i.e., cause damage or proc another status condition, then that move/ability is exempt from this rule.

Easy, simple, and fairly understandable, not many things fall into the latter category, so it techincally could be removed to just be the first sentence without the primary part.

Banning Relic Songs also effectively bans Meloetta Pirouette forme. Granted Meloetta isn't a very good pokemon but Meloetta-P is a very interesting pokemon to cook with and also I like her. Also Meloetta is the mascot of PS! so if you ban her that's like, lame I think idk I tried to think of something funny and drew blanks

 

[Return to Zero]

I see utterly no reason not to just ban these specific moves/abilities, at least. Meloetta sees basically no usage in OU, and everything that gets Effect Spore gets a better ability that it almost always runs instead.

If it becomes a problem in the future, then we can re-evaluate. The only reasonably futureproof approach that solves all the issues that have been raised is to simply ban all Sleep moves, presumably including moves with Sleep as a side effect.

I don't think I get it. If Meloetta and Effect Spore are terrible, why ban a move (and by extension, Meloetta's other form locked behind the move) and an ability? When people bring up stuff like Arena Trap and Baton Pass in this conversation, that's because those things were so busted that using shitmons like Focus Sash Fissure Diglett was a functional RNG fishing strategy. Relic Song and Effect Spore are not only way, way weaker because they have percent chances attached, but the effect attached is less consistently impactful than trapping or passing stat boosts. Does that meet a threshold for brokenness?

You said your idea has absolutely no downsides, but I don't really see what the upside is. Your suggestion is functionally just Sleep Clause as it is now, but you can't use Spore to potentially put something back to sleep as soon as it wakes up, and we have to ban more stuff now and potentially even more stuff later. It seems like making a cart-accurate Sleep Clause just means removing things that aren't actually broken from the metagame.

 

[CatsAreCute]

Why not just keep Sleep Clause and make Sleep only 2 turns and call it a day. Don't have to argue % chance to sleep or number of turns to sleep since you know you can 'come back' eventually. I've had more or equal amount of games being more infuriating due to flinch or para hax.

 

[Demon Queen]

If inaccurate sleep moves are the problem, then maybe it would help to unban evasion moves!

 

[Heatranator]

If inaccurate sleep moves are the problem, then maybe it would help to unban evasion moves!

Of course, why didn't we think of that! Just make the metagame even more bs so people will forget about sleep because it won't be the most bs thing in the metagame. You get a gold star.

 

[Wolf-X]

If you wanna modernize yourselves while been reasonable... this is totally needless btw, as the status quo doesnt show sleep is a problem in OU rn.

But if we are gonna do it to be cart accurate/modern then imo what should be done is either:

Ban the troublesome moves:
Hypnosis, Sleep Powder & Spore
OR
Ban the troublesome mons

Either way imo, things are currently nice, and there is no way to remove sleep clause without getting into really shaky territory (Spore users) and well, I think almost nobody thinks Darkrai or Valiant are a problem...

Dont understand the fixation with sleep tbh.

 

[Pluim]

If we are advocating to ban Hypnosis as it can wildly change the outcome of a game depending on the 60% or the 40% chance to hit/miss, then why doesn't moves like Focus Blast also get banned? It's usually used as coverage for Steel types, for example on Darkrai, and can also quite often changes the tides of the battle. Nothing is worse than reading a switching and clicking Focus Blast and missing.

I understand how the accuracy/rng component is disliked by some people but this is pokemon we are talking about. There are so many moves and situations like this and it's just apart of the game. (OHKO moves obviously are in a different category, as they GUARANTEED a kill and are at a much lower 30% chance to hit, which is super uncompetitive and unhealthy)

Also with the 'disallowing pokemon to use a sleep move a second time instead of sleep cause' solution wouldn't work as in some situations as:
1) You could want to click spore again predicting them to wake up.
2) It would be hard to put into function, with abilities such as Effect Spore and moves like Dire Claw and Secret Power.
Sleep clause is fine how it is, and some games you win and lose to rng. You can't prevent that, it's pokemon.

 

[RaikouLover]

As long as a Pokemon could pass a stat to another better, more deadlier mon it was broken.

I don't understand why “dry” Baton Pass is illegal though. It’s just another pivot move as a worse parting shot. Competitively that still has merit.

 

[ant4456]

It's not just Darkrai, there are other abusers of it such as Ninetails-A and Iron Valiant. It's also a matter of trying to make the simulator closer to the actual cartridge

how do y'all still misspell Ninetales in 2024

I'm starting to think that the games have to have like. An NPC that just says "by the way it's Ninetales, not Ninetails"

It's even funnier with Pokemon Unite players who play that game, see the name sometimes several times a day, and still cannot spell it right. It is baffling to me

 

[June Heat]

I don't understand why “dry” Baton Pass is illegal though. It’s just another pivot move as a worse parting shot. Competitively that still has merit.

To be fair I think other Gen Metagames are experimenting with just that. I think Gen 3 and 4 in particular. Could be wrong though.

 

[ant4456]

To be fair I think other Gen Metagames are experimenting with just that. I think Gen 3 and 4 in particular. Could be wrong though.

gen 4 has drypass and gen 3 has passing of some stats, and it pisses off the most annoying group of people (people who hate all complex bans unconditionally even in oldgens because they were told to hate them)

chad gen 4 unbanning drypass vs virgin "we cant get terapagos normal form below ubers nuh uh uh dats a complex rule" gen 9 within the same week

 

[Heatranator]

To be fair I think other Gen Metagames are experimenting with just that. I think Gen 3 and 4 in particular. Could be wrong though.

I know in Gen 3, it is allowed. In fact, I think stuff like sd celebi are allowed because they are an integral part of the metagame that are not broken. It is interesting for dynamics such as jolteon baton passing out of a dugtrio trap to get in a revenge killer.

 

[YubelVT]

Dry Passing my beloved
#LEGALIZEDRYPASSING

 

[Heatranator]

Dry Passing my beloved
#LEGALIZEDRYPASSING

Wow, in half a page, we have gone from talking about sleep to dry passing. Wtf is this discussion.

 

[June Heat]

Wow, in half a page, we have gone from talking about sleep to dry passing. Wtf is this discussion.

I guess it’s a sign of a metagame without a true boogie man. Gotta find something to complain about.

 

[YubelVT]

I guess it’s a sign of a metagame without a true boogie man. Gotta find something to complain about.

We have a boogie man (it's hypnosis you all are cowards) we just got bored

Wow, in half a page, we have gone from talking about sleep to dry passing. Wtf is this discussion.

tbf the discussion did naturally pivot

 

[Heatranator]

Replace Reddit with this discussion forum.

 

[YubelVT]

Replace Reddit with this discussion forum.
View attachment 591577

look I'm sorry I don't get voting reqs I suffer from skill issues it's not my fault I was born with the Wizard101 autism instead of the be really good at competitive pokemon autism

[post was deleted]

bro linked 2 posts where I allegedly said something and the post it links to says neither

 

[Heatranator]

look I'm sorry I don't get voting reqs I suffer from skill issues it's not my fault I was born with the Wizard101 autism instead of the be really good at competitive pokemon autism

Oh same, I tried on the gliscor suspect, got to 1800, then preceded to win 1 game and then lose the next 2, every single time. I honestly shouldn't complain at all compared to others because I'm newish to the scene (started in Gen 8 DLC2).

 

[Cuddly]

I doubt drypassing will get legalized, but I would personally like it.
Namely because Indeedee-F gets Baton Pass, which would open up a ton of potential for it in higher tiers.

 

[Ehmcee]

bro linked 2 posts where I allegedly said something and the post it links to says neither

My b mate

Also with the 'disallowing pokemon to use a sleep move a second time instead of sleep cause' solution wouldn't work as in some situations as:
1) You could want to click spore again predicting them to wake up.
2) It would be hard to put into function, with abilities such as Effect Spore and moves like Dire Claw and Secret Power.
Sleep clause is fine how it is, and some games you win and lose to rng. You can't prevent that, it's pokemon.

Wanted to pop in, because while I disagree with the implementation of keeping Sleep Clause as a ban of clicking the button if a Pokemon is already asleep (not due to rest), the problems you have don't have any bearing on it's implementation at all.

1) Yes, this is correct, this is actually how it should be. The whole reason this strategy exists is because of the nonexistant gameplay mechanics Showdown has implemented to prevent multiple Pokemon put to sleep. The alternative would be the sleep user auto-losing the game if they accidently put a second Pokemon to sleep, which I think we both agree would be a lot less elegant.

2) This implementation in particular would ignore moves and abilities that don't directly put opponents to sleep. Specifically Hypnosis, Sleep Powder, Spore and Sing. (Secret Power actually doesn't exist anymore!)
In the very unlikely situation that moves like Relic Song or Dire Claw, or abilities like Effect Spore become problematic, we can assess them later.

Sleep clause is fine how it is, and some games you win and lose to rng. You can't prevent that, it's pokemon.

"You can't prevent that, it's Pokemon"

Sure, rng is a core element of Pokemon, but actually, the way we have sleep rn isn't Pokemon at all! :D