Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[CaptainSC]

Ting-Lu + Pult + Ghold is a really OP core vs teams that have no hazard control or only rely on Spin. Samur-H is a bit more of a mixed bag IMO. It is very strong vs Hat, but I don't think it does that well vs Tusk. You need to rely on Hydro to make progress vs that, but Tusk has the Speed advantage + CC for the OHKO. That being said, Samur-H has a lot of good tools like Taunt letting it anti-lead mons like Ting-Lu easily.

Dealing w/ Gambit kinda forces Tusk + Gambit on most teams. However, as you stated, both probably hate taking Spikes damage the most, letting Gambit go sicko mode on a Spikes stacking team. I do agree that Cinder is a pretty good pick vs Gambit + Hazards since Court Change gives good flexibility & it has Wisp to put gambit in a bad position. Paired w/ Encore Valiant and itcan kinda work as an Alternative means of checking Gambit compared to running Tusk + Gambit.

While hazard stack is kinda OP, I think it is kinda necessary since it is extremely strong vs other annoying offensive archetypes like Screens & Gambit. We need Defog to come back in the DLCs.

Shit i was legit thinking pult as wrote this but oops…. but yah you’re not wrong in terms of the spike stacking or just hazards in general being necessary for checking stupid brokens.

But I guess I was just trying to voice out my frustrations w them ig?

But in terms of samu, I think the fact that the tusk can’t run max def and is forced to run max speed makes it WAY more susceptible to a king gambit win. It also doesn’t help that samu has the same checks as gambit and has its other stab to trash on its checks as well. like tusk does not like losing damn near half its health to razor shell.

and the fact that u can just set up spikes while attacking is just stupid strong to me LMAO.

 

[658Greninja]

Um idk if i’m just bitching too much and i just need to get better. But hazard stacking + gambit is really fucking annoying to deal with.

with , , and the biggest offender of them all i feel like spikes stacking has been easier than before.

And thanks to gold the methods of maintaning one’s hazards is stupid easy.

**or just blazing fast offensive pressure but that’s been there since the beginning of time**

Anyways, since the beginning of the generation the top mon has always tusk for its ability to check just about every physical attacker and provide hazard relief since gold can’t switch in freely. However, in this new meta game i feel like it’s been hard to get rid of the hazards AND check gambit.

Tbh tusk has always been really good at doing the dirty work. knock off, eq, spin, rocks you name it…. it’s got it all and it can just be the perfect glue pokémon that lets your team function. However w all these new pokémon like the kanto birds , simply existing makes it harder for tusk to click simple moves like knock or spin without having the user shit their pants. Not to mention the evolution of gambit where people have figure out how to really milk gambit of its tera in specific situation to blow by its #1 check tusk once it’s recived the slightest bit of chip.

Which brings me back to tusk…… I just feel like I’m constantly in a pick your poison situation.

it’s either
A. i let my tusk do the dirty work and get bowled over by gambit
or
B. i try to preserve my tusk to help check gambit and position myself for a win but get chipped by hazards spam bc they’re so easy to set up.

Like yes i enough to understand that u basically need like 2 other mons + tusk to deal w a gambit. but it still doesn’t change the fact that it’s just frustrating position to be in.

So now, any time i don’t run a crazy fast HO team or a super fast offensive team. i feel like i need to run an Ace or a maus to help.. (or just slap boots on everything). so yeah….. team building and playing has just been really frustrating these days.

But maybe this is just a me thing…. but do lmk if i blatantly missed something cus this is more of a thought i had in my mind.

Assuming Defog doesn’t gain any distribution in DLC1, we do gain two mons that work well against hazard stack in Clef/Gliscor. Clef cause of its immunity to hazards, and Gliscor cause of its immunity to spikes + Poison Heal offsetting the dmg from SR. A big flaw with Boots spam is that one Knock can puncture a big hole onto a team, having Clef/Gliscor means teams have a viable Knock absorber (and status absorber). Mandi is coming back and gets Defog via usage, but it needs 100 atk evs to beat Ghold cause its a passive bird. If we don’t have higher Defog distribution, at least we get something to combat hazard stack.

 

[G-Luke]

Let's actually take a look at things that Sliggoo wants to switch in on that it can actually check/sit on.

• Glowking - Seriously, just as much as Glowking sits on Sliggoo, Sliggoo sits on it as well. It's a two-way walling street.
• Zapdos. There's not much offensive or defensive Zapdos can do to Sliggoo.
• Cresselia - This one is more of just a basic check than anything else. Cress does set up in your face, but it's the same thing as Espathra, really. You need an Unaware mon to properly check it.
• Specs Pult - This one is wishy-washy. If you're already Tera'd, or come in on Surf/Flamethrower pre-Tera, then you force it out. If it Dracos you pre-Tera, or isn't Specs/is Band/Is Wisp + Hex and you don't have Rain up, then you're going to be hurting.
• Enam-T - Similar situation to Cress. Can freely set up on you, but you can still sting it pretty bad with Sludge Bomb + Poison or Thunder spam.
• Greninja - Gren just sort of falls over to Sliggoo, really. Sliggoo is too bulky for it to break through without Ice Beam, and even with it you can just click Tera Steel and still outbulk it.
• Hatterene - This one is wonky but it's also hilarious. In the rain, Hat really can't do anything to you. Nuzzle gets cured immediately, Psychic/Psyshock/Dazzling Gleam/Draining Kiss all bounce off of you. Sure, it could try to set up, but it's going to take some fat Sludge Bombs in the process.
• Heatran - Barring Magma Storm passive damage, you switch in on Heatran all damn day, pre-Tera. It's attacks pretty much just bounce off of you, and Rest makes the match-up a nightmare.
• Offensive Moltres - This thing does NOT appreciate having you switch into it. Most Kantonian Moltres are defensive, which also very much does not appreciate you existing.
• Defensive Pelipper - Same thing as Moltres; does NOT like you switching into it. It's attacks pretty much just bounce off of you, and you click Thunder and it's sad.
• Rotom-Wash: Nothing about Washtom likes dealing with Sliggoo at all. Trick is a thing, but every other move it has bounces off. Heattom and Mowtom also have this issue.
• Toxapex: Toxa who? Poison what? Sliggoo don't care! You hit it harder than it hits you. Infestation exists, but you have Rest. Meanwhile, Thunder smacks AV Pex for upwards of 26%.
• Walking Wake: Another wishy-washy match-up for Sliggoo. In base, you check Hydro Steam and Flamethrower, but get punished by Draco and Dragon Pulse. In Tera, you check Draco and Pulse, but Flamethrower and Hydro Steam in Rain sting.
• Hydreigon: This is yet another wishy-washy match-up. If it has Taunt, you have a problem. If it's a Nasty Plot set, you have a problem. If it's mostly offensive without either of these tools, you actually check it pretty well. The only variant that really gives you trouble is the type that runs Earth Power over Fire coverage. Draco/EP covers you pretty well. However, if it is Draco/Fire instead, or Dark Pulse/EP, then you're sitting just fine.
• Specs Mence - In the Rain, Mence's attacks pretty much just bounce off. Not many people still use Specs Mence, unlike me, but still notable.
• Scream Tail - 50/50. This thing isn't really a threat to anyone, much less Sliggoo. Encore is the worst thing to deal with but otherwise this ball of stupid just eats fat Sludge Bombs.
• Skeledirge - Unless they REALLY want to commit to the Torch Song spam to get their stats up, Dirge does NOT appreciate Sliggoo sitting on it. Wisp + Hex crumples due to Rest/Hydration, Torch Song does nothing in and out of Rain, and the only things left are Earth Power or Tera Blast.
• Thundy-T - Unless they are a Nasty Plot variant, Thundy can hardly touch Sliggoo. Tbolt/Volt Switch/Knot all hardly touch it, leaving only TB Flying, Dark Pulse, and Focus Miss. Of those, TB and Focus Miss are the only ones really worth worrying about.
• Torn-T - Same issues as Thundy. Focus Miss is your only good offensive move. Heat Wave is hard nerfed by the Rain, and Hurricane does nothing to Tera Steel. Non-NP sets look at Sliggoo and crumple.
• Volcanion - Sliggoo sits on this thing all day and then some. Rain + Hydration means that even if they get a burn, it isn't lasting very long. Rest gives you too much resilience against it, and Thunder allows you to clap back insanely hard

I also love it how people justify it being bad because it doesn't hit hard like Tusk does, lmao. While I know and understand that the format is full of powerhouses, having a brain also helps when piloting, y'know? You don't stay in on physical threats. Ever. Power also isn't everything. This is a lesson I've had to teach many players over my time in SV. That's why I brought up the idea of this Sliggoo; It's a neat little niche fire pick that I found ends up checking some annoying things, and can even put Little Timmy Ubers spammers in their place when playing on cart.

But hey, what do I know? I can't even get reqs for tests, don't play in tournaments, and have low ranking on the ladder. I'm not allowed to have a creative opinon, unlike someone else here.

Alot of the post you made is just admitting that the Mon loses to another list of top Pokémon. Like I am sure you can have fun with mons no one is stopping that. But if you want people to take an unranked Pokémon seriously, a wall of no context calcs will not sell the Mon, consistent high level replays showcasing it's Performance will.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

Oh, no. I know what you're saying completely. Sliggoo is by no means an OU threat, nor will it ever be. I'm the type that loves to theorymon and put things into practice to see what sticks, almost like what Morkal does but with a smaller brain and lesser processing power. My rain team is 100% not stall, more akin to bulky balance/bulky offense, if anything.
I'm wasn't trying to call anyone out in particular in that frustration fueled post -- it's just that since I stuck my head out from the start of SV (This is my first actual foray into trying to discuss metagame stuff, develop niche things, and try to participate/contribute in any way since starting to play Pokemon online in DP), I've literally always had people shutting me down, calling me or my choices bad, and not even entertaining an actual, civil conversation about things. Be it here, or in the UU section, even in a more private UU Discord.
I am the creative type. I use Pokemon as a creative and problem solving exercise for my dumb, autistic brain. (Yes, this is why my posts are often... Bad or fueled.) I like to try to open the door to discussing off-color and things that are generally seen as less competitive/not viable. (Sliggoo, Bisharp, Skill Link CopiumCross, etc.) It feels bad to try and open the door, only to have people slam it shut while others like Morkal get praised like a God amonst men (and women) when he takes something like Delelelewoooop and posts about it. ...Of course it doesn't help that I don't have a squad behind me for theorymonning, nor do I make a three page essay going over checks, sets, roles, etc.

Yeah, I get what you mean about using Pokemon/teambuilding as an exercise for your brain; I've done that all the time too and I'm sure that holds true for many other people as well, regardless of if they're neurotypical or divergent. I know it's easy for me to say but I wouldn't worry too much about how Morkal's posts appear to be better received than yours. I have nothing against Morkal and I don't have a problem with their posts in this thread, especially since the overall quality of discussion in this thread is pretty low (maybe it's recency bias, but I think that this is the worst metagame discussion thread I've ever seen when it comes to actually discussing the metagame in a relevant way), but at the same time, I also relate to what IPF said years ago and what airfare reiterated recently (as an aside, I think that comparing the response/reactions to IPF's post in the SS OU discussion thread [which to be clear, I can remember wasn't always a bastion of high quality discussion either] to that of airfare's in this thread a few weeks ago could be illustrative of the diminished quality of this thread). Again, I'm not hating on Morkal at all and I appreciate all of the effort that they put into their posts, but I feel like the responses to their posts are largely amplified by a handful of users that have helped create a sort of cult of personality and people legitimately enjoying Morkal's writing and creativity, rather than as a testament to the efficacy of their sets in OU; I highly doubt that anyone reads one of Morkal's posts, builds a team around their Kricketune set or something, and leans on that set to climb to the high ladder. I agree with AM's post that Morkal's posts are positive contributions to this thread, again, because the average post quality here appears to me to be lacking, but I think that part of the issue is that there is an SV OU heat thread that Morkal (I figured that I should probably tag them, since I've mentioned them so many times) started themselves. That thread is ostensibly where those kinds of posts featuring niche Pokemon should go, but I also understand them posting in this thread because this thread receives a lot more traffic and their posts are generally well-received here. I just feel like some people get frustrated because they want the quality of the discussion in this thread to be elevated, but then they see posts about something like Kricketune getting lauded; it would almost be like if a chef opens a restaurant in a small town and wants to elevate the food scene there, but all of the local patrons just start popping off when it's announced that the McRib is returning. I hope I don't sound pretentious, since I don't want to be comparing Morkal to McDonalds, and I don't have an issue with either of them, but I do understand where both sides are coming from regarding how serious or competitively oriented (I get that anyone playing OU could be considered a "competitive player" since it is an inherently competitive format, but I mean it more in terms of how serious people are about winning and improving, as opposed to having fun with meme sets) they want for the discussion here to be. So, to wrap this up, I imagine that you feeling like your contributions are not as well received or welcomed as Morkal's has more to do with how Morkal structures and writes their posts (which is important and I appreciate), rather than the actual quality of the sets that you devise, as well as Morkal having already built a reputation for themselves and carving out a lane as "that user who writes long posts about using lower tier mons in OU." Again though, I think that the kind of experimenting that you and Morkal do is a good thing, and I wouldn't be discouraged about how people react to your posts here; frankly, many of the people who try to put other people down on these forums (and the internet as a whole) without offering any constructive feedback in return likely aren't competent players in their own right or are too young/socially inexperienced in the real world to know how to respectfully communicate, so they try to elevate themselves by acting superior on a Pokemon forum of all places - no hate towards any users in particular either, but that dynamic has always been a thing.

 

[SpritePony]

Alot of the post you made is just admitting that the Mon loses to another list of top Pokémon. Like I am sure you can have fun with mons no one is stopping that. But if you want people to take an unranked Pokémon seriously, a wall of no context calcs will not sell the Mon, consistent high level replays showcasing it's Performance will.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...te-on-post-5186.3722192/page-232#post-9724187
Counterpoint, Morkal's posts never give high level replays to showcase performance, yet still receives a lot of praise. Most of his posts go through more details than mine do (my Bisharp post being an exception), with a hell of a lot of calcs.

Yeah, I get what you mean about using Pokemon/teambuilding as an exercise for your brain; I've done that all the time too and I'm sure that holds true for many other people as well, regardless of if they're neurotypical or divergent. I know it's easy for me to say but I wouldn't worry too much about how Morkal's posts appear to be better received than yours. I have nothing against Morkal and I don't have a problem with their posts in this thread, especially since the overall quality of discussion in this thread is pretty low (maybe it's recency bias, but I think that this is the worst metagame discussion thread I've ever seen when it comes to actually discussing the metagame in a relevant way), but at the same time, I also relate to what IPF said years ago and what airfare reiterated recently (as an aside, I think that comparing the response/reactions to IPF's post in the SS discussion thread [which to be clear, I can remember wasn't always a bastion of high quality discussion either] to that of airfare's in this thread a few weeks ago could be illustrative of the diminished quality of this thread). Again, I'm not hating on Morkal at all and I appreciate all of the effort that they put into their posts, but I feel like the response to their posts are largely amplified by a handful of users that have helped create a sort of cult of personality and people legitimately enjoy Morkal's writing and creativity, rather than as a testament to the efficacy of their sets in OU; I highly doubt that anyone reads one of Morkal's post, builds a team around their Kricketune set or something, and leans on the set to climb to the high ladder. I agree with AM's post that Morkal's posts are positive contributions to this thread, again, because the average post quality appears to be lacking to me, but I think that part of the issue is that there is an SV OU heat thread that Morkal (I figured that I should probably tag them, since I've mentioned them so many times) started themselves. That thread is ostensibly where those kind of posts featuring niche Pokemon should go, but I also understand them posting in this thread because this thread receives a lot more traffic and their posts appear to generally be well-received here. I just feel like some people get frustrated because they want the quality of the discussion in this thread to be elevated, but then they see posts about something like Kricketune getting lauded; it would almost be like if a chef opens a restaurant in a small town and wants to elevate the food scene their, but all of the local patrons just start popping off when it's announced that the McRib is returning. I hope I don't sound pretentious, since I don't want to be comparing Morkal to McDonalds, and I don't have an issue with either of them, but I do understand where both sides are coming from regarding how serious or competitively oriented (I get that anyone playing OU could be considered a "competitive player" since it is an inherently competitive format, but I mean it more in terms of how serious people are about wining and improving, as opposed to having fun with meme sets) they want for the discussion here to be. So, to wrap this up, I imagine that you feeling like your contributions are not as well received or welcomed as Morkal's has more to do with how Morkal structures and writes their posts (which is important and I appreciate), rather than the actual quality of the sets that you devise, as well as Morkal having already built a reputation for themselves and carving out a lane as "that user who posts writes long posts about using lower tier mons in OU." Again though, I think that the kind of experimenting that you and Morkal do is a good thing, and I wouldn't be discouraged about how people react to your posts here; frankly, many of the people who try to put other people down on these forums (and the internet as a whole) without offering any constructive feedback in return likely aren't competent players in their own right or are too young/socially inexperienced in the real world to know how to respectfully communicate, so they try to elevate themselves by acting superior on a Pokemon forum of all places - no hate towards any users in particular either, but that dynamic has always been a thing.

I'm not hating on Morkal at all either, if anything I'm more envious of it. He makes some fire stuff, and serves as a minor inspiration for what I do. (And is actually a part of the reason why my Bisharp post some many pages back was more detailed than my usual stuff.)

 

[G-Luke]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...te-on-post-5186.3722192/page-232#post-9724187
Counterpoint, Morkal's posts never give high level replays to showcase performance, yet still receives a lot of praise. Most of his posts go through more details than mine do (my Bisharp post being an exception), with a hell of a lot of calcs.


I'm not hating on Morkal at all either, if anything I'm more envious of it. He makes some fire stuff, and serves as a minor inspiration for what I do. (And is actually a part of the reason why my Bisharp post some many pages back was more detailed than my usual stuff.)

I hate to say it, but you don't have Morkal's clout. You're gonna have a harder time to sell a normally seen as unviable Pokémon to the masses that Morkal does. It's the ugly truth.

 

[SpritePony]

I hate to say it, but you don't have Morkal's clout. You're gonna have a harder time to sell a normally seen as unviable Pokémon to the masses that Morkal does. It's the ugly truth.

Yup, it's the ugly truth that I know exists, and I live in it. But at this point you're just throwing stuff at me just to put me down. First it is needing to post high level replays (which isn't possible for me, as I don't care to grind for internet points and add additional stress onto myself), then it's needing clout.

 

[Moyashi]

Yup, it's the ugly truth that I know exists, and I live in it. But at this point you're just throwing stuff at me just to put me down. First it is needing to post high level replays (which isn't possible for me, as I don't care to grind for internet points and add additional stress onto myself), then it's needing clout.

No one is trying, nor do they want to put you down. G-Luke is just pointing out that it would be a good idea to add replays to your posts about odd/niche mons if you want to sell them.

(For the record, much as I think the Morkal posts are fun, i do agree they should also be sharing replays).

 

[tigers jaw]

>major tour just ended
>another in its opening phases
>highly impactful suspect didn’t go through
>come to ou meta thread to see what people are saying
>see a page of “discussion” about sliggoo
>check previous pages
>billion pages of “discussion” about undisclosed dlc info
>meta discussion thread

good stuff guys

unironically why is the mod team not doing anything to sort this thread out

 

[autumn]

late, but ou c&c now has a sample sets submission thread to be used for the dex sets. we’re currently looking for some sets for the newly ranked pokemon, but anyone is welcome to submit sets for anything ranked too

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-sample-set-submissions.3726015/

for people interested in writing analyses and contributing to ou further, we also have a new slate of sets to reserve! we’ve reduced the format a little too so it should be easier for any first-time writers looking to get started!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-reservation-index.3714276/

 

[Empress Mobile]

Is there a forum for higher quality meta discussion? We have two pages here discussing Sliggoo lmfao

Do you have any high quality topics to discuss? I would be happy to engage in them with you if you do.

 

[ant4456]

on the topic of suspect vs quickban tiering

i think atp "big government smogon tiering" is better, however the main draw to suspect tests for me is that they are super fucking entertaining, and losing that part of the experience could suck really badly

 

[Srn]

>major tour just ended
>another in its opening phases
>highly impactful suspect didn’t go through
>come to ou meta thread to see what people are saying
>see a page of “discussion” about sliggoo
>check previous pages
>billion pages of “discussion” about undisclosed dlc info
>meta discussion thread

good stuff guys

unironically why is the mod team not doing anything to sort this thread out

For wcop discussion you can go to the wcop threads (finals) or the wcop discussion thread in the OU forum
For OLT discussion you can go to the OLT discussion thread
The kingambit suspect was discussed to death in its own thread
Even Tera discussion has its own thread
The current meta is badly poisoned and on a timer, so ofc people want to talk about what's coming next.

Most of the interesting topics of discussion have been compartmentalized into other threads. I guess the natural endpoint is sliggoo discussion...
Normally I would offer up some stuff I've been using, but I'm trying OLT this cycle and I'd like to make myself hard to snipe.
But fine fine, here's some shit I gave up on instead:


Enamorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Draining Kiss
- Taunt
- Calm Mind

I saw this set once in WCOP and thought of it as a cool addition to screens that could really pressure the typical special walls. I wasn't too impressed by the id/cm tera steel set bc opposing offense tends to have encore or enough offensive pressure that you don't get going, and fat teams have unaware/cm blissey which stop you forever. Taunt fixes the latter problem and lets you shut down stuff like clodsire, ting lu, toxapex, etc so they can't toxic/whirlwind you and get in the way. This has enough speed for blissey so you can taunt to prevent them from calm minding and muscle them down with boosted draining kisses to heal off seismic toss damage. I chose tera ground ep as a way to boost your immediate power vs stuff like glowking/cinderace, but more importantly it stops glowking from clicking t-wave and zapdos from just spamming discharge and fishing for paralysis. All things considered, this is a pretty tough set for fat teams to answer, and tough to stop in general once it gets going.

I gave up on it primarily because I think the lack of immediate power+low speed was too much of a hindrance. Screens already struggles with cinderace court changing them away, and this mon gives ace ample opportunity to do so. It's also huge encore bait as it's slower than all the popular users of it, and while it does have a better matchup vs gholdengo/kingambit with tera than cresselia does, it lacks the same hazard proofing qualities+reliable recovery. It's also just..deceptively frail? 74 hp really drags u down when ur this slow and u have 5 exploitable weaknesses.

All in all decent set but it was rather inconsistent in practice on an already inconsistent playstyle.

What sets have yall given up on? What spark of potential did you see that got snuffed out by this cruel meta?

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

No one is trying, nor do they want to put you down. G-Luke is just pointing out that it would be a good idea to add replays to your posts about odd/niche mons if you want to sell them.

(For the record, much as I think the Morkal posts are fun, i do agree they should also be sharing replays).

I think that asking for people to post high ladder (I specified "high" ladder since if someone posts a replay of them using a PU mon in like the 1200s, they would likely be ridiculed and dismissed for doing so) or tournament replays of their niche sets may be a little disingenuous though, since it's pretty unlikely that those users are able to reach the high ladder or have experienced much tournament success in the first place. To me, it feels almost dismissive and code for "Sure, go ahead and demonstrate success with that mon - I'll wait." There are some users, like Eeveeto, who are excellent and accomplished tournament players that consistently use "heat" or niche Pokemon (and Eeveeto also probably posts in this thread more frequently than any other top player, which should be appreciated as well), and people like Pinkacross and Storm Zone are well known for topping the ladder with more obscure mons (which they also make great RMTs about), but the vast majority of the users that talk about largely irrelevant mons aren't really concerned with achieving significant competitive success. I think this all relates to how these discussion threads (and possibly the larger Smogon and Showdown communities as a whole) have become more and more "casually" oriented, despite all Smogon metagames inherently being created to foster a competitive environment. I know that the word "casual" harbors a good amount of stigmatization and is a fairly charged word that people can be touchy about when it comes to something like competitive video games, but I feel like there are three general approaches to how people play Pokemon. The first approach is playing through the game on console and pretty much ignoring any competitive component - this is by far the most common way that Pokemon is played and why the majority of Pokemon players don't even know about Smogon's existence or interact with it in any way. The opposite end of the spectrum are players whose sole focus is winning in competitive battles - both on Showdown and in VGC. Sure, there is a wide disparity between the skill levels and time investment of competitive players, but I think that by definition, a top tournament player like SoulWind trying to win a playoff game and someone on the low ladder trying to improve and do their best to win by using things like sample teams are both competitive players. The middle ground between those clearly "casual" and "competitive" players are players that play competitively on Showdown or in-game formats but they would rather use weaker Pokemon that they consider fun, instead of using better teams with the sole purpose of trying to win. Those players aren't completely casual players since they are participating in competitive formats and they're still trying to win, but they also aren't playing as competitively as possible, because they are intentionally using Pokemon or strategies that they know aren't giving themselves the best opportunity to win. I feel like this thread has shifted more to that third group of players - I guess you could call them something like "competitive casuals," but I would be hesitant to apply any label, because it could come off as demeaning.

So, my point is that players that post niche/heat sets don't particularly care about optimizing their success and reaching the high ladder or winning in tournaments. I don't want to make assumptions or speak for anyone else, but I doubt that people read Morkal's posts and think "Wow, adding Kricketune to my team is exactly what I need to do to break through my ladder plateau and climb into the high ladder," nor do I anticipate that they envision that Morkal is perpetually hovering around the top of the ladder (I know nothing about Morkal's playing ability so for all I know, they may have experienced their fair share of ladder or tournament success, but the point is that it's not really relevant either way). The type of player that wants to build around/play with some random, lower tier mon isn't doing so because their focus is primarily winning, so asking them to provide replays exemplifying notable success is almost like asking someone figure skating with their significant other or children to do a triple axel - it's missing the point of their intention.

Now, the question arises as to whether or not that kind of approach "should" be allowed or encouraged in this thread or this part of the forum, and I'm sympathetic to people that are frustrated that this thread isn't as purely focused on the competitive metagame. I don't really know how to answer the question as to what direction the thread should go in, and only the mods can decide that. It does feel different to me than the viability ranking threads where you're required to post replays for new nominations, since the viability rankings are meant to be resources to help players and ideally should be curated to maintain higher quality information. A thread like this is for all OU players to discuss the metagame, and if it's filled with players that like experimenting with worse Pokemon and playing more for fun than purely competitively, I don't think that it's a problem if they want to talk about their experiences with the metagame. Obviously there's a limit to what can be considered "relevant metagame discussion" and again, I do feel like the SV OU Heat Thread could/should be utilized more for those types of posts, but it's not like the perspectives of those players should be dismissed on account of them being "more casual."

Finally, I feel like all of this is kind of a microcosm of much of the narrative that has surrounded SV and is somewhat emblematic of the varying attitudes towards Tera. Some people say that pro-Tera players are more casual because they just enjoy the gimmick of Tera, but when it comes down to tiering action involving Tera, the opinions of all players that get reqs are equally important. After Tera survived OU's suspect test, I remember some people saying that "casuals swung the vote;" I particularly remember bea advocating that the GXE minimum needed to be raised to like 88 or something (no hate towards bea either, since they've clearly been one of the best players on the site in recent generations, but I did think that their take was funny). This dynamic only intensified after Tera remained legal in National Dex's suspect test, which lead to this fairly absurd policy review thread (I don't have anything against Solaros & Lunaris or the person that they were posting as a proxy for either, but that thread was kind of wild). So, I kind of feel like a lot of this may just be growing pains as the popularity of Smogon/Showdown increases, which isn't really a bad thing. I don't have sources to verify this, but I do think that Smogon and Showdown are continuing to grow, while YouTubers like aim and blunder are experiencing increased success and are causing more new players to join the competitive community. All of that is a good thing, but it's kind of an inevitable tradeoff as well that many of those newer users will be attracted to OU, since it's the standard tier, and a good number of those users may be more inclined to play competitively "for fun," rather than only with the intent of winning. I really do understand both sides of this "problem" (I used quotation marks since I don't really think it's a problem at all, so maybe "discrepancy" or something would have been a better word choice), so I get more competitively-minded players wanting the discussion to be more "serious," while other players want to post about obscure mons they're experimenting with without feeling derided. I'm not sure how that difference could be reconciled, or if reconciliation should even be pursued, but I feel like it may be important to just acknowledge the different perspectives that people who post in this thread have. Ultimately, it's up to the moderators to decide how they want to try to dictate discussion in the thread and where to potentially redirect various types of posts, but I don't feel like the mods have done a bad job or anything.

 

[Napoli Burns]

Morkal's posts never give high level replays to showcase performance

lol what kind of replays do u expect from someone who post calcs for kricketune?

for me sliggo is a lot better than the kricketune post, at least it has some ways to restore hp, there is a rmt team who peaked more than 2000 on ou ladder using h-goodra in a similar way u intend to use sliggoo

but a team with a PURE BUG? not even in rby that can happen, at one point people wanted to test arceus-bug for OU because as a typing is SO BAD to balance a 720 bst with almost all the best setup and offensive moves in the game

and also you specified

as a meme tier pick for Rain

so a newbie does not really think sliggoo is a top 5 mon to use under rain

 

[Magcargo]

>major tour just ended
>another in its opening phases
>highly impactful suspect didn’t go through
>come to ou meta thread to see what people are saying
>see a page of “discussion” about sliggoo
>check previous pages
>billion pages of “discussion” about undisclosed dlc info
>meta discussion thread

good stuff guys

unironically why is the mod team not doing anything to sort this thread out

I kinda wanted to make a post about the Turn 1 Tera Electric Garg sweeping in one of the finals games since that was kinda crazy, but tbh I'm not really sure what to say about that. I guess Tera Electric makes sense as it does the same thing as Tera Water vs Ghold and Gambit while also handling Zapdos. Electric does still have an iffy MU vs Tusk, but if Tusk doesn't have BU, it's kinda f'd as we saw in the replay. Idk if this'll become a standard option on Garg though even after the replay since Fairy and Water are broadly useful types vs stuff like Pult and Rain, respectively.

As a general point, it is interesting to see that "general" counterplay options in Trick and Encore have become so popular, significantly more so than in the previous generation. I think Toxic and Knock cut have led to more pokemon using set-up moves to make progress in a given game. Trick and Encore are strong because they simultaneously punish using these moves while also making it easier to use them yourself. I wonder how much Tera has to do with them getting popular as well. Even in a non-Tera metagame, I think they would still be really good because of their broad use vs a range of threats, the same way Toxic / Knock were.

 

[Eeveeto]

but a team with a PURE BUG? not even in rby that can happen, at one point people wanted to test arceus-bug for OU because as a typing is SO BAD to balance a 720 bst with almost all the best setup and offensive moves in the game

Pinsir is considered sort of viable in RBY due to having Slash and decent bulk to use it, unlike Persian who is frail.

 

[Napoli Burns]

Pinsir is considered sort of viable in RBY due to having Slash and decent bulk to use it, unlike Persian who is frail.

according to smogon dex pinsir is PU, for me is around NU levels (according on the tier used on smogon) and has a niche for UU but nothing more

very very borderline for OU, PU has the first evolution line of top tier OU pokemon like abra and gastly but still, even if pinsir was top RBY OU DON'T PLAY A PURE BUG FOR SV OU, even if it can check a top usage mon like tusk and the guy who suggested has 50+ reaction

also shameless plug, since a lot of people does not really like sv ou start playing RBY OU, is a very very fun metagame quick to learn but has a lot of deepness, sadly ladder is almost empty

 

[Return to Zero]

>major tour just ended
>another in its opening phases
>highly impactful suspect didn’t go through
>come to ou meta thread to see what people are saying
>see a page of “discussion” about sliggoo
>check previous pages
>billion pages of “discussion” about undisclosed dlc info
>meta discussion thread

good stuff guys

unironically why is the mod team not doing anything to sort this thread out

Really, I'm alright with Sliggoo discussion, albeit I think it's already run its course. It was just:

"Hey guys, here's some stuff Sliggoo can do."
"That's true, but Sliggoo is passive and useless and matches up very poorly against every top threat in OU."
"Fair."

Which is infinitely more than you have contributed within that time period of a few days, by virtue of having contributed at all. Be the change you want to see in the world. Every post spent complaining about the topic of the thread is one spent not actually improving it. Also I think it's very silly to not expect the thread Called OU Metagame Discussion to speculate on additions to the OU metagame, even if people doomposting about Aurora was also silly.

Now here's my contribution so I don't end up a hypocrite:

As a general point, it is interesting to see that "general" counterplay options in Trick and Encore have become so popular, significantly more so than in the previous generation. I think Toxic and Knock cut have led to more pokemon using set-up moves to make progress in a given game. Trick and Encore are strong because they simultaneously punish using these moves while also making it easier to use them yourself. I wonder how much Tera has to do with them getting popular as well. Even in a non-Tera metagame, I think they would still be really good because of their broad use vs a range of threats, the same way Toxic / Knock were.

I never actually considered before that the loss of Toxic's omnipresence would be what made Encore so popular and standard now, since setting up in the opponent's face is generally an easier choice to make. There's something impressive about how Valiant is so insanely adaptable that it can run so many different sets and be that experimental. I think Valiant is going to serve as SVOU's barometer for meta trends that way in the future. Given the Poison legendaries(?) that are going to show up in the DLC, be interested to see how it adapts depending on where they end up.

 

[Morkal]

Hey everyone; there's a lot of discussion going on in here, but I wanted to touch on some points that SpritePony Goodbye & Thanks and G-Luke mentioned as I feel we could discuss some of the mentalities going around and hopefully get the thread to feel a little less "at odds" within. (Since a lot of these posts are quite big; I'm going to specifically quote the parts I want to address to avoid post bloat, I highly recommend reading the full posts).

So, to wrap this up, I imagine that you feeling like your contributions are not as well received or welcomed as Morkal's has more to do with how Morkal structures and writes their posts (which is important and I appreciate), rather than the actual quality of the sets that you devise, as well as Morkal having already built a reputation for themselves and carving out a lane as "that user who writes long posts about using lower tier mons in OU." (Post snippet)

I hate to say it, but you don't have Morkal's clout. You're gonna have a harder time to sell a normally seen as unviable Pokémon to the masses that Morkal does. It's the ugly truth.

Yup, it's the ugly truth that I know exists, and I live in it. But at this point you're just throwing stuff at me just to put me down. First it is needing to post high level replays (which isn't possible for me, as I don't care to grind for internet points and add additional stress onto myself), then it's needing clout.

I'd like to bring both of these comments up specifically because I want to make something super clear to everyone in this thread who feels discouraged by interactions (or lack thereof) on their posts - as long as you're playing the game genuinely, having fun, and learning over time at your pace, that is ALL that matters. As G-Luke and Goodbye & Thanks touched on; presentation and reputation can positively or negatively affect the outcome of content in a post and are NOT an indicator of post quality. SpritePony I went through and read some of your postings about Bisharp and its place in the meta like this and this (along with glancing over Sliggoo); I thought you brought up some intriguing points (I haven't tested Bisharp personally as far as I can remember, so I can't comment on its functionality), and I'm interested in trying it. You're a cool person from what I've seen - keep up the good work and keep trying your best!

To further clarify, the level of formatting, writing, testing, etc. that goes into my posts (like the Kricketune post) is not meant to be something accomplished in a short period of time. Gen 9 work on Kricketune in OU started back in February - compiling all the information and posting it back in July was basically an all-day affair that took a long time. Not everyone has the time available to write huge monster blocks of text, and that in no way indicates that the quality of the smaller posts is lesser. If you have great or unique observations about the OU meta (or niche options within) that you feel are relevant and can be said within a few paragraphs, you should share them! Regarding the "post threshold for the thread" debate; I don't honestly have the answer to that and I think it's unique to the subject matter presently being discussed, some topics require more elaboration than others.

I think this all relates to how these discussion threads (and possibly the larger Smogon and Showdown communities as a whole) have become more and more "casually" oriented, despite all Smogon metagames inherently being created to foster a competitive environment. I know that the word "casual" harbors a good amount of stigmatization and is a fairly charged word that people can be touchy about when it comes to something like competitive video games, but I feel like there are three general approaches to how people play Pokemon. (Post snippet)

I'd also like to touch on this; the whole casual/competitive debate. While I can see the argument for Smogon as a whole being more "casual-oriented", I don't think that's the whole story. Terastallization is a casual/competitive mechanic with a similar style of appeal that Mega Evolutions had - I think that it's a lot of newer players or players less focused on ELO have come to the meta because the tera mechanic is simply a fun mechanic and there is less pressure to perform with a mechanic like this allowing players to be more flexible with their builds. Every single one of us was a casual once - whether you jumped into competitive fully around 2011/2012-ish (Gen 4/5 OU) as I did, or if you were an early bird who helped form competitive foundations in Gen 1/2/3, or if you're a newcomer who joined in one of the more recent generations like 8/9, we were ALL newcomers once. Toeing the line between "simplifying" the metagame discussion environment and "maintaining competitive filters" is a longstanding argument; so I'd like to ask a question to both sides -

• For those on the side of feeling that Smogon's competitive meta isn't casual-friendly at all (which I disagree with) - what makes you feel this way? Is it technical aspects like post reqs/rankings/usage meta framing, or is it the way people talk to you (dismissive talk like "talking down", numbers-focused talk, etc)?
• For those on the side of feeling that Smogon's competitive meta is too friendly to casuals (which I also disagree with) - When you're talking to casual users, are you speaking to them in a way that makes them want to continue playing? Do you feel that your tone could perhaps be less harsh and would you personally be willing to continue playing if someone talked to you in the same manner that you talk to others?

lol what kind of replays do u expect from someone who post calcs for kricketune?

but a team with a PURE BUG? not even in rby that can happen, at one point people wanted to test arceus-bug for OU because as a typing is SO BAD to balance a 720 bst with almost all the best setup and offensive moves in the game

I love your first Kricketune replay comment and it made me smile reading it (but I love Kricketune and use it frequently in OU, so I suppose the joke is on me). I do have to say though in regards to your comment about pure Bug-type being bad; pure Bug resists both of Tusks's STABS (Ground/Fighting) along with Grass. It's not the best defensive typing by any means, but it absolutely has benefits (and has only gotten better in more recent generations). RBY was arguably one of the least hospitable, if not the least hospitable OU meta for bugs due to a sheer lack of move distribution (or moves at all, to begin with).

Speaking of which, on an unrelated note; I really wanted to thank everyone for the kind words and the congratulations on the community contributor badge myself and Magcargo were just awarded. I really love how passionate this entire community is, and I love being a part of it. Seriously y'all, thank you a ton. Also for those wondering, I'm currently working on a new write-up before the DLC drops (nothing huge, just something transitional while we wait for the entire meta to be upended with all the new additions).

I hope you're all doing well, and I can't wait to see how SV OU's meta shapes with the upcoming DLC!

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

Hey everyone; there's a lot of discussion going on in here, but I wanted to touch on some points that SpritePony Goodbye & Thanks and G-Luke mentioned as I feel we could discuss some of the mentalities going around and hopefully get the thread to feel a little less "at odds" within.

I want to quickly mention that I agree with what Morkal said here but I hope that the quoted section from my previous post about how I feel like the discussion threads may have become more "casually" oriented doesn't make me come off as some type of elitist or anything. The whole point of my post was actually to push back against any form of gatekeeping and exclusion of players that aren't solely focused on "playing to win," but out of context, I'm afraid that that particular portion of my post may come across as the opposite (which I don't think was Morkal's intention at all, by the way). The next sentence of my post immediately following what was quoted actually was me addressing how "casual" is a pretty stigmatized word because I didn't want to come across as condescending. What I was really trying to convey in that part of my post was that people play the game for different reasons, and I don't feel like that's a problem at all, so it's good to just try to understand what someone else's motivation may be and know that they may not align with your interests/be relevant to you. I get that can be annoying to some people who want the discussion in this thread to flow one way or another, but so long as posts are of at least passable quality/substance and aren't disrespectful or anything, who cares if someone decides to post about specific metagame trends being seen in upper echelon tournament play or some lower tier mon that they've been experimenting with? That doesn't feel like a controversial thing to say, although it's also evident in life that many people just are not good at ignoring things that they don't like but don't really impact them in any way either.

Anyway, I don't know if I needed to clear any of that up, but I've always had a thing about words/wording being important and I didn't want anyone to just look at what Morkal quoted from my post and get the wrong impression.

 

[Bakugames]

vs
With the rise of moltres, wanted to do a fun exercise and compare these two. This is mostly from watching plays and trying it out/fighting against it, so it might not be the most correct analysis ever, but I wanted to try it out anyway

Offensive usage

Zapdos is a great offensive tool, especially but not exclusively in rain teams. There's not a lot in the tier that resists the thunder/hurricane combo, and it keeps momentum alive with unstoppable volt switches. Outside of rain, hurricane and heat wave are still great. Heat wave in specific is a great tool vs kingambit, who can survive one hit and threatens to ohko it depending on supreme overlord stacks or put it on sucker punch mindgames. Hurricane makes tusk volt switch blocking almost unviable, and its good typing means even without bulk investiment it can still survive vs higher threats like valiant, sneasler, zama.
It does forego thunder wave and some sort of speed control for its team, but the pokemon it can nail down make it worth it and static helps with punishing attackers, even turning checks into winnable matches if unreliable.

Compared to bulkier sets though, its easier to nail down and while I did say the typing helps it keep some of that defensive profile, it doesn't like getting hit by nukes like gholdengo, specs pult, pyro ball etc, and gets chipped faster/needs to click roost more often. Ting Lu, lando and sandy shocks can stop it and without the bulk, the latter two may threaten to ko it or force it to switch out. Glowking is also a great stop to it.

I haven't seen a lot of offensive Moltres, so I can't talk about it in depth. I think it has a lot of potential and moltres hasn't been fully explored yet, but having no equivalent of rain enabling and competition with cinder which provides hazard control is an issue. If anyone has any experience with it though let me know!

Defensive usage

I'm starting with Moltres since I talked too much about zapdos LOL.

Moltres, just like zapdos, has a great defensive profile vs a lot of the offensive threats right now. Flame body is an incredible ability, in quite a few situations even better than static. While zapdos without heat wave can be picked apart by gambit, which doesn't like thunder wave but doesn't get super bothered by it, moltres immediately threatens it to get burned, and doesn't allow for a sword dance equalizer by forcing it out immediately. Similar situation with valiant, tusk, sneasler, dnite etc. It can run wow if it wants a consistent crippling too, but just the threat of flame body forces a lot of switches in the moltres player favor, which zapdos doesn't force as much

A lot of the mons it has good matchups against tend to overlap with zapdos, but stuff like resisting valiant/enamorus moonblast, ghold make it rain and the fact it doesn't have to rely on hurricane for some matchups is really good. It toasts corvi resisting both cinder pyro but also the uturn makes it great at helping keep spikes up/open up the path to get spikes up
U-turn, while not dealing the same amount of damage like zapdos, still makes it a good pivot that doesn't get stopped by ting lu.

It also has issues that overlap with zapdos, but also some issues exclusive: the typing, while great for a lot of things, is scared of gren and h-samu, which zapdos can threaten easily. It struggles harder with garg, especially tera water, and doesn't like pult thunderbolt.
It has lower speed, and has some of its bulk benefits cut by the fact it will often be hit first, roosting is trickier, and is more scared of 2hkos/3hkos than zapdos in certain situations. While running hurricane, it still hates rain teams (for obvious reasons lol) and is a bad mu against them.

What do you guys prefer to use? which teams fit each better?
Please let me know if I missed anything, got anything wrong etc.

 

[Morkal]

I want to quickly mention that I agree with what Morkal said here but I hope that the quoted section from my previous post about how I feel like the discussion threads may have become more "casually" oriented doesn't make me come off as some type of elitist or anything. The whole point of my post was actually to push back against any form of gatekeeping and exclusion of players that aren't solely focused on "playing to win," but out of context, I'm afraid that that particular portion of my post may come across as the opposite (which I don't think was Morkal's intention at all, by the way). The next sentence of my post immediately following what was quoted actually was me addressing how "casual" is a pretty stigmatized word because I didn't want to come across as condescending. What I was really trying to convey in that part of my post was that people play the game for different reasons, and I don't feel like that's a problem at all, so it's good to just try to understand what someone else's motivation may be and know that they may not align with your interests/be relevant to you. I get that can be annoying to some people who want the discussion in this thread to flow one way or another, but so long as posts are of at least passable quality/substance and aren't disrespectful or anything, who cares if someone decides to post about specific metagame trends being seen in upper echelon tournament play or some lower tier mon that they've been experimenting with? That doesn't feel like a controversial thing to say, but it's also evident in life that many people are just not good at ignoring things that they don't like but don't really impact them in either way.

Anyway, I don't know if I needed to clear any of that up, but I've always had a thing about words/wording being important and I didn't want anyone to just look at what Morkal quoted from my post and get the wrong impression.

Oh hey, I'm sorry I didn't mean for the quote snip of your post to come across that way - I edited my original post for clarification on that, cheers!

vs
With the rise of moltres, wanted to do a fun exercise and compare these two. This is mostly from watching plays and trying it out/fighting against it, so it might not be the most correct analysis ever, but I wanted to try it out anyway

Offensive usage

Zapdos is a great offensive tool, especially but not exclusively in rain teams. There's not a lot in the tier that resists the thunder/hurricane combo, and it keeps momentum alive with unstoppable volt switches. Outside of rain, hurricane and heat wave are still great. Heat wave in specific is a great tool vs kingambit, who can survive one hit and threatens to ohko it depending on supreme overlord stacks or put it on sucker punch mindgames. Hurricane makes tusk volt switch blocking almost unviable, and its good typing means even without bulk investiment it can still survive vs higher threats like valiant, sneasler, zama.
It does forego thunder wave and some sort of speed control for its team, but the pokemon it can nail down make it worth it and static helps with punishing attackers, even turning checks into winnable matches if unreliable.

Compared to bulkier sets though, its easier to nail down and while I did say the typing helps it keep some of that defensive profile, it doesn't like getting hit by nukes like gholdengo, specs pult, pyro ball etc, and gets chipped faster/needs to click roost more often. Ting Lu, lando and sandy shocks can stop it and without the bulk, the latter two may threaten to ko it or force it to switch out. Glowking is also a great stop to it.

I haven't seen a lot of offensive Moltres, so I can't talk about it in depth. I think it has a lot of potential and moltres hasn't been fully explored yet, but having no equivalent of rain enabling and competition with cinder which provides hazard control is an issue. If anyone has any experience with it though let me know!

Defensive usage

I'm starting with Moltres since I talked too much about zapdos LOL.

Moltres, just like zapdos, has a great defensive profile vs a lot of the offensive threats right now. Flame body is an incredible ability, in quite a few situations even better than static. While zapdos without heat wave can be picked apart by gambit, which doesn't like thunder wave but doesn't get super bothered by it, moltres immediately threatens it to get burned, and doesn't allow for a sword dance equalizer by forcing it out immediately. Similar situation with valiant, tusk, sneasler, dnite etc. It can run wow if it wants a consistent crippling too, but just the threat of flame body forces a lot of switches in the moltres player favor, which zapdos doesn't force as much

A lot of the mons it has good matchups against tend to overlap with zapdos, but stuff like resisting valiant/enamorus moonblast, ghold make it rain and the fact it doesn't have to rely on hurricane for some matchups is really good. It toasts corvi resisting both cinder pyro but also the uturn makes it great at helping keep spikes up/open up the path to get spikes up
U-turn, while not dealing the same amount of damage like zapdos, still makes it a good pivot that doesn't get stopped by ting lu.

It also has issues that overlap with zapdos, but also some issues exclusive: the typing, while great for a lot of things, is scared of gren and h-samu, which zapdos can threaten easily. It struggles harder with garg, especially tera water, and doesn't like pult thunderbolt.
It has lower speed, and has some of its bulk benefits cut by the fact it will often be hit first, roosting is trickier, and is more scared of 2hkos/3hkos than zapdos in certain situations. While running hurricane, it still hates rain teams (for obvious reasons lol) and is a bad mu against them.

What do you guys prefer to use? which teams fit each better?
Please let me know if I missed anything, got anything wrong etc.

Moltres has honestly been more of my favorite defensively due to its propensity to punish physical attackers + I feel that Fire/Flying is spectacular STAB coverage in the current meta for a defensive mon. Zapdos, however, I've been valuing more in a mid-range role with "moderate" defensive investment but with a heavier focus on offensive presence. Electric/Flying can be comparatively limited against teams packing certain threats, but it's still a powerful typing and it's easier to get Zapdos onto the field compared to Moltres against specific team archetypes.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

Oh hey, I'm sorry I didn't mean for the quote snip of your post to come across that way - I edited my original post for clarification on that, cheers!

Hey, all good - I know that you didn't mean anything bad by it, and I likely didn't need to clarify anything to begin with. But anyway, thank you; keep doing your thing as well. Your post also hit much of what I was getting at, and I'm glad that a post like this from Lemingue immediately followed mine, so I'll let this thread get back to its regularly scheduled programing.

 

[Bakugames]

Moltres has honestly been more of my favorite defensively due to its propensity to punish physical attackers + I feel that Fire/Flying is spectacular STAB coverage in the current meta for a defensive mon. Zapdos, however, I've been valuing more in a mid-range role with "moderate" defensive investment but with a heavier focus on offensive presence. Electric/Flying can be comparatively limited against teams packing certain threats, but it's still a powerful typing and it's easier to get Zapdos onto the field compared to Moltres against specific team archetypes.

That's a really good point, I find that zapdos has great offensive power and can use its bulk to put holes in team and clean off much better than moltres, with the help of roost to keep its threatening presence and not fall to revenge killing. Moltres feels better as phydef glue (not to say zapdos is bad though, its still a great defensive mon) in the current meta, and with help to cover its few matchup issues it makes a really good core mon