Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[sims796]

I do feel like it’s easy to doompost about how hard gamefreak has tried to kill defensive playstyles and 6v6 singles in general. I think if we keep tiering at the same rate as other generations nothing will really change, and if suspect tests are held then newer players will stop changes from happening because they’re more inclined to accept the metagame as it is. I think what should happen is a lot more quickbans, and some experimental quickbans to try and make the metagame more balanced like previous generations, not necessarily if the mons banned are literally unstoppable. Some unhealthy mons I can see going in order to make the metagame healthier are (in order from least to most healthy) Baxcalibur, Samurott-H, Kingambit, Sneasler, Roaring moon, and Cresselia. It could be seen as a little stupid to try and resist power creep, but we’ve just never had power creep at such a large scale before, with tpc literally trying to reshape the game towards 10 turn slugfests. To compare it to last gen, it’s like if we had 15 Dracovish forms with Gorilla Tactics and then the council finally had enough and said “Alright, let’s ban three of them.”

I also agree. Nintendo Freak has made this an extremely offensive meta. We have the power to change that if we will, and leaving the decision up to a bunch of randos who may or may not know what they are talking about for a better meta, me included (it's fun! is the main reason I hear) probably isn't the best bet.

Besides, we already fudge the rules of the game with Sleep Clause. The main reason I play showdown, above even the ease of use, is sleep clause, something that cannot be replicated on cart. Not even a gentleman's agreement can achieve the effect, lest we remove Dire Claw, which I'm fine with (I don't care one way or the other regarding the move),but I'm not fine with losing Effect Spore.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Light Clay isn’t a problem and hasn’t been a problem since its introduction in Gen 4.

We rarely ever saw screens being used until Gen 6, and that was because that generation and beyond gained better screen setters and better setup sweepers. Its safe to assume that its the abusers, but even then, you never hear ppl complain about Ursa, Tusks, or FUCKING IRON HANDS in this metagame. Screens isn’t pushing them to broken levels. The reason Light Clay was banned in the lower tiers is cause the lower power level makes screens stronger. Gen 9 has heavy power creep and Pult who ignores screens (and also ironically can set them up). Mag, Volc, and Urshifu were broken without screens.

So having both a lower and higher power level, paradoxically, both make screens broken?

 

[658Greninja]

So having both a lower and higher power level, paradoxically, both make screens broken?

Lower power level means harder to break through offensive sweepers under screens.

Higher power level means offensive sweepers are easier to rkill under screens. Also the fact that the defensive threats of the metagame like Glowking, Dozo, and Tusk are bulkier compared to UU’s Gastro and Tinkaton.

Also if screens are broken? Why weren’t they ever considered banworthy in Gen 4-8?

 

[Magcargo]

Also if screens are broken? Why weren’t they ever considered banworthy in Gen 4-8?

I thought Veil teams were BS in gen 8 too, but there were technically more counter play options due to higher Defog Distribution & the most common form of screens being Veil, which had some other countertech like running Ttar.

Screens options this gen are pretty solid, but IDK what screens teams (specifically the setters like Grimm and Dragapult) are suppose to do vs Ting-Lu spamming hazards and Whirwinding. You gotta be a God-tier player like Vert or Mimikyu to deal with that.

Court Change Cinderace is another annoying MU.

 

[sims796]

Lower power level means harder to break through offensive sweepers under screens.

Higher power level means offensive sweepers are easier to rkill under screens. Also the fact that the defensive threats of the metagame like Glowking, Dozo, and Tusk are bulkier compared to UU’s Gastro and Tinkaton.

Also if screens are broken? Why weren’t they ever considered banworthy in Gen 4-8?

This is a serious question in response to this post.

Is there a point where it doesn't matter, like it's just splitting hairs? If screens are a problem in this meta because of th abusers, do we not ban Light clay if screens pushes them over the top? Like Shed Tail? I know ST had many many reasons that makes it far more broken than Screens, but it gotme thinking.

Again, a serious question. When I read these comments on Light Clay, I think these thoughts. When it comes to tiering and bans, I'm always a bit behind.

My take of course is that Screens aren't broken and you're all being cray cray leave my crutch alone I'm trying to get outta 1200.

I thought Veil teams were BS in gen 8 too, but there were technically more counter play options due to higher Defog Distribution & the most common form of screens being Veil, which had some other countertech like running Ttar.

Screens options this gen are pretty solid, but IDK what screens teams (specifically the setters like Grimm and Dragapult) are suppose to do vs Ting-Lu spamming hazards and Whirwinding. You gotta be a God-tier player like Vert or Mimikyu to deal with that.

Court Change Cinderace is another annoying MU.

Exactly. Fuck Cinderace.

 

[Napoli Burns]

i think a giant role in screens being abused is dragapult, 142 base speed, wow, curse, uturn ddarts, 88/75/75 bulk isn't impressive but is helped by the typing and ofc, u can't never know if on the switch he will set a screen or shot a specs sball

grimm or klefki ar nowhere near him as pressure even if they have prankster, against cind also pult isn't a totally dead slot

To compare it to last gen, it’s like if we had 15 Dracovish forms with Gorilla Tactics and then the council finally had enough and said “Alright, let’s ban three of them.”

lmao quickban one of them who was almost healthy for checking valiant, suspect the other 2 who are so broken that actually balance the other 12 dracovish

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Also if screens are broken? Why weren’t they ever considered banworthy in Gen 4-8?

In generation 9 they introduced a crazy new mechanic that allows any Pokémon to get 2-3 free turns and a 3rd stab move (or adaptability on one existing stab) by changing its type, and introduced a crazy move that lets any Pokémon have an 80/100 move of the corresponding type. This in turn makes allows most Pokémon to handpick and kill their own "counterplay" Screens compound this issue by turning 2-3 free turns into 3-5 with the defensive boost. This also means that if you do have a Pokémon that has the right combination of type and moves that can deal with a set up Terastalized threat, a good clean super effective hit (or even 2) won't be enough to avert the situation. There's also the factor that very dangerous setup sweepers that take advantage of this like Iron Valiant or Sneasler did not exist in Gens 4-8. Gen 9 also greatly increased the distribution of moves like Swords Dance and Calm Mind.

tldr because those were different generations.

Alternative tldr Tera.

 

[RaikouLover]

Also if screens are broken? Why weren’t they ever considered banworthy in Gen 4-8?

In the past, we could try to overpower screen sweepers with brute force. For example, I would click Specs Steam Eruption in the rain to blow up a Volcarona behind screens. Then in Gen 9 it suddenly learned how to become a flower, turning 2Xs damage into a resist behind screens. The rest is history.

It’s almost like screens aren’t even the issue…

 

[658Greninja]

In generation 9 they introduced a crazy new mechanic that allows any Pokémon to get 2-3 free turns and a 3rd stab move (or adaptability on one existing stab) by changing its type, and introduced a crazy move that lets any Pokémon have an 80/100 move of the corresponding type. This in turn makes allows most Pokémon to handpick and kill their own "counterplay" Screens compound this issue by turning 2-3 free turns into 3-5 with the defensive boost. This also means that if you do have a Pokémon that has the right combination of type and moves that can deal with a set up Terastalized threat, a good clean super effective hit (or even 2) won't be enough to avert the situation. There's also the factor that very dangerous setup sweepers that take advantage of this like Iron Valiant or Sneasler.

tldr because those were different generations.

Alternative tldr Tera.

So basically….Tera is the problem, not screens.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

So basically….Tera is the problem, not screens.

Well yes, but if we are stuck in a metagame where Tera is legal and unrestricted, as we could be anywhere from four months to forever, banning Light Clay is imperative

 

[SDK03]

Speaking of Screens, Ninetales and its Alolan form were confirmed to be coming back. I could easily see Ninetales-A being the best screener in the game when it finally comes back since it has Aurora Veil + Snow Warning, with Snow buffs Def giving a Max HP Ninetales-A pretty good bulk in snow for a fast screener. Also helps that it has a STAB combo that hits Tusk really hard and also chunks Valiant and Enamorus well, with Baxcalibur being an amazing partner for it.

 

[veti]

lmao quickban one of them who was almost healthy for checking valiant

Volcaronas defensive utility is a major reason in it's brokenness, the bulk and typing allow it to easily get multiple boosts. If volcarona didn't check pokemon like Valiant it would be a way healthier presence.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Speaking of Screens, Ninetales and its Alolan form were confirmed to be coming back. I could easily see Ninetales-A being the best screener in the game when it finally comes back since it has Aurora Veil + Snow Warning, with Snow buffs Def giving a Max HP Ninetales-A pretty good bulk in snow for a fast screener. Also helps that it has a STAB combo that hits Tusk really hard and also chunks Valiant and Enamorus well, with Baxcalibur being an amazing partner for it.

Man is going to be cracked (or rather, enable virtually any setup sweeper to be cracked, especially Mr Bax) - another huge buff for screens. Pult definitely still has a niche as a screener with TWave, Wisp, and Curse though, that free switch from curse is especially potent

 

[Alternator]

I do feel like it’s easy to doompost about how hard gamefreak has tried to kill defensive playstyles and 6v6 singles in general. I think if we keep tiering at the same rate as other generations nothing will really change, and if suspect tests are held then newer players will stop changes from happening because they’re more inclined to accept the metagame as it is. I think what should happen is a lot more quickbans, and some experimental quickbans to try and make the metagame more balanced like previous generations, not necessarily if the mons banned are literally unstoppable. Some unhealthy mons I can see going in order to make the metagame healthier are (in order from least to most healthy) Baxcalibur, Samurott-H, Kingambit, Sneasler, Roaring moon, and Cresselia. It could be seen as a little stupid to try and resist power creep, but we’ve just never had power creep at such a large scale before, with tpc literally trying to reshape the game towards 10 turn slugfests. To compare it to last gen, it’s like if we had 15 Dracovish forms with Gorilla Tactics and then the council finally had enough and said “Alright, let’s ban three of them.”

If they're new, unfamiliar with the meta, and still able to make reqs, that makes them outstanding players who are worth listening to. Intentionally excluding new members of a community is how communities die.

No variation on, "Let's do X so we can ignore suspect test voters" is ever going to pass.

Also, the point of Smogon tiering isn't to shape the metagame to a specific ideal (IE, some form of balance being the 'best'), which is what you seem to be getting at. It's to take the current gen and, with the lightest hand possible, turn it into a competitive metagame. If that means HO is the most common style, as long as it's not the only style, that's fine!

 

[658Greninja]

Well yes, but if we are stuck in a metagame where Tera is legal and unrestricted, banning Light Clay is imperative

But Light Clay, isn’t a problem. A Cress behind screens is still not winning against Hoopa-U or Gambit. Bax still loses the 1v1 to Scizor. ID Zama isn’t breaking past Molt, Pex, or Zappy even with screens. Some of the mons mentioned to be broken with screens like Bax, Ghold, Valiant, and Enam would still receive complaints with it gone. (For the record Bax is broken regardless). You don’t hear discussions about Booster Tusk or Golt being too much for the tier.

You also need to consider other things.

1: It takes two turns to set up Reflect and Light Screen, and another turn to switch into your setup sweeper. That means if you setup Reflect, then Light Screen, then switched out, you’d have 6 Reflect turns and 7 Light Screen turns. That’s alot of turns to work with, but you also have to consider that for the 2-3 turns you set up screens and switch out, your opponent has all that time to do something with those turns. Taunt, set up hazards, click Knock, bring in a wincon, send in a powerful offensive threat, etc. HO teams thrive with momentum (every archetype does but HO is more focused on it) and you lose momentum within those turns of setup and give your opponent breathing room to reclaim it. Alolatales can set up both in one turn, but as of August 2023, it is not with us, this is about Screens in pre-DLC SV OU.

2: Screens offense also has some notably difficult matchups. Pult ignores screens with Infiltrator, and Meow ignores screens with Flower Trick crits. Ting-Lu can sit on the two screen setters of the tier (but realistically you’re mostly gonna see Pult) and do whatever it wants while having enough bulk to avoid OHKOs from even the strongest offensive threats and phaze them out. Cinder can Court Change the screens to its side. Valiant can disrupt wincons with Encore. Hoopa-U’s Hyperspace Fury ignores Screen and its raw power lets it match up well against Pult, Moth, and Cress. You can set up a billion screens, but your Dnite is never breaking that Dondozo. These match ups are why screens can often feel inconsistent over standard HOs or Spike Stacking.

 

[Moyashi]

and its benefactors include otherwise-unviable Pokémon like Ursaluna and Iron Hands,

Uhhh, no?. Neither of these are unviable without screens. That's just goofy

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Also, the point of Smogon tiering isn't to shape the metagame to a specific ideal (IE, some form of balance being the 'best'), which is what you seem to be getting at. It's to take the current gen and, with the lightest hand possible, turn it into a competitive metagame. If that means HO is the most common style, as long as it's not the only style, that's fine!

I don't usually post in these threads, but this part of your post resonated with me so hard I just had to. It's something that I thought about a lot today, actually, in regards to the SV metagame but also compared to other OU metagames. And please, this is not about how I "don't want SV OU to become like SS OU", it's literally not even about that. I just think that whatever is good and whatever should be good are two distinct things - one is, well, what is happening right now, and one is complete opinion. Why are people gravitating so hard towards balance-oriented metagames? I mean, yeah, it's what we've had for the past few gens (I'm not going to dig up actual evidence here, I probably could if needed, but if you check a lot of high level games from the former 3 generations... a LOT of them, especially at the highest level, are going to be fatter teams. There's always going to be exceptions - but it's definitely not a coincidence. Bulkier teams allow you more leeway against bad luck because of a sturdier backbone, and bulkier teams tend to just be more "consistent" in their win conditions. Think CM Clef and Gliscor over, say, QD Volc having to risk Fire Blast accuracy. The game to game consistency is just higher, especially against lesser players.), but why is it being different an issue apart from your personal distaste for a faster game? As long as all playstyles are viable (and, again, check WCOP replays - for everyone saying that fat teams are basically unviable with Tera, Spain is currently in finals spamming a lot of the same, fatter structures over and over again, they seem to be doing pretty well considering they're two wins away from the trophy!) I see absolutely no issue with what playstyle is the most dominant, and if anything cherish it considering that the past few gens could become a lot slower at a high level. That has its own charm, and there's really no problem with that, it's once again personal preference. Most people will say that Offense is unquestionably the strongest style in modern GSC, but fatter teams are still viable. Is there an issue because GSC is offense oriented nowadays? Apart from personal bias of "I want something else", I really don't see it.

If you want to argue that Tera is broken and you want it gone in good faith, go ahead - everyone is entitled to their own opinion - but I think people who think that offense being the best playstyle is a problem are just flat out wrong. You can hate this metagame, you can hate how offensive it is, but a lot of that is personal opinion. Stop trying to pass it off as fact, please, and something people should just agree with when it's anything but that. High level (both ladder and tournament) play literally shows all playstyles being viable, and that's all I will base it off of here. I get that not everyone plays or even wants to play at a super high level, but I always look at the highest level of play because that's the best thing we have to go off of.

 

[DaemonChop]

I do feel like it’s easy to doompost about how hard gamefreak has tried to kill defensive playstyles and 6v6 singles in general. I think if we keep tiering at the same rate as other generations nothing will really change, and if suspect tests are held then newer players will stop changes from happening because they’re more inclined to accept the metagame as it is. I think what should happen is a lot more quickbans, and some experimental quickbans to try and make the metagame more balanced like previous generations, not necessarily if the mons banned are literally unstoppable. Some unhealthy mons I can see going in order to make the metagame healthier are (in order from least to most healthy) Baxcalibur, Samurott-H, Kingambit, Sneasler, Roaring moon, and Cresselia. It could be seen as a little stupid to try and resist power creep, but we’ve just never had power creep at such a large scale before, with tpc literally trying to reshape the game towards 10 turn slugfests. To compare it to last gen, it’s like if we had 15 Dracovish forms with Gorilla Tactics and then the council finally had enough and said “Alright, let’s ban three of them.”

Those damn new players who get reqs and make an educated decision!

What is with all the anti-suspect sentiment lately? Is it cuz the Kingambit suspect test didnt go the way people (myself included) wanted? The fact that tiering decisions are consistently made by a skilled group of players that can prove their adeptness in a meta is some thing that the Smogon system should be proud of. That stupid NDOU policy review thread is the peak of this - the whole point of suspects is that only those who actually play a meta and have skill with it can vote. It's a meritocracy.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Also if screens are broken? Why weren’t they ever considered banworthy in Gen 4-8?

if baton pass is broken, why wasn't it banned until gen 7? if king's rock is uncompetitive, why wasn't it considered banworthy until gen 8? sometimes these things take time to figure out

 

[uppa]

Those damn new players who get reqs and make an educated decision!

Ah yes, the esteemed meritocracy of teenage boys and adults who act like teenage boys voting for what they find to be the most fun.

Be serious. It sounds good in theory, but no suspect test will ever produce results that indicate what is objectively healthy or toxic for a tier. I would rather entrust that to a council who knows what the hell they're doing.

 

[Kamenridingwaves]

Ah yes, the esteemed meritocracy of teenage boys and adults who act like teenage boys voting for what they find to be the most fun.

Be serious. It sounds good in theory, but no suspect test will ever produce results that indicate what is objectively healthy or toxic for a tier. I would rather entrust that to a council who knows what the hell they're doing.

One word. Volcarona

 

[uppa]

One word. Volcarona

I'd rather more than one word tbh. I feel like maybe you were going for an epic one liner but I personally think the volc quickban was warranted, so that's kind of lost on me.

 

[Alternator]

Ah yes, the esteemed meritocracy of teenage boys and adults who act like teenage boys voting for what they find to be the most fun.

Be serious. It sounds good in theory, but no suspect test will ever produce results that indicate what is objectively healthy or toxic for a tier. I would rather entrust that to a council who knows what the hell they're doing.

With all due respect, if that's your stance, Smogon may not be for you, since you dislike the absolutely most fundamental, bedrock principal upon which Smogon handles tiering: the suspect test.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

With all due respect, if that's your stance, Smogon may not be for you, since you dislike the absolutely most fundamental, bedrock principal upon which Smogon handles tiering: the suspect test.

suspect tests are all well and good, but the situation we're in is one where the process is too slow, bloated, and unreliable to make meaningful progress before major meta shifts happen. the whole system is designed to maintain the status quo so we don't just start booting a bunch of mons to ubers left and right, which is nice most of the time but very bad when we actually need to start booting a bunch of mons to ubers left and right. it's like how the american government is designed to get nothing done, which has done wonders to prevent it from becoming an autocracy (thus far, fingers crossed), but renders it effectively useless in, for example, the fight against climate change

also, democracy in general is overrated because human beings are, on average, human beings

 

[uppa]

With all due respect, if that's your stance, Smogon may not be for you, since you dislike the absolutely most fundamental, bedrock principal upon which Smogon handles tiering: the suspect test.

Tbf I do have much better things to contribute to the site than whining about a tier I barely play.

Like these, which will be implemented eventually. Whenever new sprites are added.
It probably says a lot that my favorite tier is GSC ou when I can't stand the 20 turn games of current gen. Hope you all get a lot more out of the tier than I can.