No, I'm not sadly, that is a really cool idea. I'm using it as a mixed attacker, by using relic song to switch between forms and deal powerful damage with either cc or psychic (knock off is also on the set to be a safe move and deal massive damage to ghost types). It destroys stall teams, who have to use gliscor as a temporary stop gap, but if gliscor is chipped then its game over.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter ausma
- Start date
no. Real muk > Fraud alolan muk. You cant touch gliscor (even ice punch does under half) so it doesnt even make progress against bulky teams like it used to. Literally run regular muk. poison is better than poison dark for every relevent non-dragapult or hatterene matchup, and even these standard muk does fine enough into--> UR/C (Maybe B-?)
alolan muk not only can lose its item from knock off/trick, it gains a ghost resistance and psychic immunity for the cost of a fighting fairy and bug neutrality, so pult uturn hurts far more, clef can beat u easier over time, val can just straight kill u at +2, and who cares if you wall gking fs if the tusk coming in after OHKOs you?
Use real muk. Stop larping.
Don't mind me, just cleaning up the D ranks.
-> D/UR
What does this do anymore? Like, get up sticky webs and use stone axe? Maybe? Like, if you are going to use sticky web, please use ribombee. It's so bad that I can't even begin to describe how bad it is. I would rather use kricketune as my sticky webs mon, and I am never using kricketune in my life. Please get this off the viability rankings, we need to put this dog down.
-> D/UR
I don't see a use for milotic that suicune, azumarill, toxapex, rotom wash or any other bulky water type can't accomplish. It's main niche was countering manaphy, and now that's not potentially banworthy it has not really much use. I guess it has recovery and scald, but at that point use alomomola instead.
-> D/UR
Pincurchin's only real niche is that of an electric terrain setter, but even then its extremely bad. I have used electric terrain, and it feels like you are playing 4v6 because pincurchin is letting things come in for free when it is forced to set up terrain again. Nobody who wants to win uses pincurchin and it should rightly be scrubbed from the tier list.
-> D/UR
What does zarude do? Like I don't see a niche for this mon, it is a worse meowscarada in every regard, and meow is a mid mon. It has decent bulk, but that is undercut severly by its atrocius typing. If you want a bulky grass/dark type, use wo chien, and wo chien is a D rank mon. It can try some swords dance stuff or bulk up stuff I guess, but gambit, weavile and tusk do those jobs much better. I don't see why we kept this thing in the viability rankings.
-> D/URWhat does this do anymore? Like, get up sticky webs and use stone axe? Maybe? Like, if you are going to use sticky web, please use ribombee. It's so bad that I can't even begin to describe how bad it is. I would rather use kricketune as my sticky webs mon, and I am never using kricketune in my life. Please get this off the viability rankings, we need to put this dog down.
-> D/URI don't see a use for milotic that suicune, azumarill, toxapex, rotom wash or any other bulky water type can't accomplish. It's main niche was countering manaphy, and now that's not potentially banworthy it has not really much use. I guess it has recovery and scald, but at that point use alomomola instead.
-> D/URPincurchin's only real niche is that of an electric terrain setter, but even then its extremely bad. I have used electric terrain, and it feels like you are playing 4v6 because pincurchin is letting things come in for free when it is forced to set up terrain again. Nobody who wants to win uses pincurchin and it should rightly be scrubbed from the tier list.
-> D/URWhat does zarude do? Like I don't see a niche for this mon, it is a worse meowscarada in every regard, and meow is a mid mon. It has decent bulk, but that is undercut severly by its atrocius typing. If you want a bulky grass/dark type, use wo chien, and wo chien is a D rank mon. It can try some swords dance stuff or bulk up stuff I guess, but gambit, weavile and tusk do those jobs much better. I don't see why we kept this thing in the viability rankings.
OST is over (congrats SZ) and the 2024 chapter of SPL is coming to a close. With WCOP coming soon, I think it’s a good time to highlight an underrated mon that hasn’t been ranked in the SV OU VR.
Thundurus-I: UR > C
Sets
(offensive thundy)
Thundurus @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Focus Sash/Custap Berry/Magnet
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ice/Grass
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Tera Blast/Grass Knot
- Knock Off
- Thunder Wave
EV Details: 208 Speed Modest outruns max speed Lando. 48 HP allows it to live hits at full such as
Cudgel, any hit from Booster
, a Proto boosted hit from
, any hit from Hex
, offensive
Sball,
Moonblast, any hit from Adamant
,
Pyro, non-Ebelt
Ice Beam, SO +5
Sucker, and an Ice Spinner from
.
(bulky thundy)
Thundurus @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Custap Berry/Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 192 HP / 108 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Tera Blast
- Knock Off
- Thunder Wave
EV Details: A bulkier spread that lets Thundy-I live more hits at full such as E-Belt
Ice Beam, Proto
Knock,
Stone Edge, +2
Knock, and Jolly
Ceaseless/Razor Shell + Jet.
For those who are unaware, I am the Thundurus whisperer, and I will break down why I’ve been using it in serious games, as well as why it should be ranked.
Reason #1: Priority Thunder Wave
Thundurus-I has the rare access to priority T-Wave thanks to Prankster, giving it a solid matchup into HO/BO. Prankster T-Wave is particulary valuable for crippling fast offensive threats or sweepers, and even bulky walls which can clutch important matches. Keep in mind that it can’t T-Wave are Garg, Ghold, Dark types, Electric types, and Ground types. However Thundy is not a one trick pony.
Reason 2: Knock Off
Unlike its competition
and
, Thundy packs Knock Off which can cripple special walls like
,
, and
in conjunction with Spikes while being a genuinely spammable move.
Reason 3: Solid Balance Matchup
Vs Balance, Thundy STABS + Tera Ice Blast, threatens the likes of
,
,
,
,
,
,
, and even
since Modest Tera Ice 2HKOs after minor chip. Alternatively, Grass Knot has been something I’ve been running over Tera Ice to smack
and
without needing to burn Tera with the added benefit of 2HKOing
which is a game changer for teammates like
. Its offensive presence is heightened by Knock + Spikes from its teammates.
Reason 4: Good Offensive Synergy
Because of Thundy’s ability to break through bulkier builds with Boltbeam/Boltknot and Knock Off, it synergizes well with many top Pokemon such as
,
,
,
, and
. It also helps with anti-offense matchups like
,
, and
.
Reason 5: Role Compression
Thundy can compress the role of speed control, anti-lead, and wallbreaker, thus never being deadweight in any matchup.
Heavy-Duty Boots is self-explanatory. Prevents Thundy from taking 25% from rocks, and gives Thundy more switch-in opportunities.
Sash lets Thundy act as a better anti-lead. The stuff it can 1v1 or cripple includes
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
, non-Sash
,
,
,
, etc.
48 HP and 192 HP Thundy can live the aformentioned hits from it, potentially activating Custap Berry and letting Thundy get a surprise KO, potentially vs
leads.
Magnet boosts Thundy’s Tbolt, letting it
OHKO on 80 HP
and mixed Dfse
,
2HKO on bulky
, bulky
,
, and offensive
without SR.
3HKO on
,
, SpD
, and standard
.
As per everytime a UR mon is nommed, here are some calcs and replays. Also a link to the original Thundy post, the original nom, and a RMT featuring it, all of which contain some of the replays here.
Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2091228982
(Vs Mimikyu Stardust, Thundy was able to T-Wave the CB Pult turn 1, a solid anti-lead against other offensive leads. If it was Hexpult, it would’ve opened up the endgame for Zama.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2092683262?p2
(Thundy scares off the Pult lead due to Prankster T-Wave. Thundy would’ve been able to live the Ivy from Wogre, but it crit. It didn’t matter anyways since ID Zama cleaned the rest of the team)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2092695514?p2
(Thundy clicks Knock on the Gliscor, eliminating Poison Heal for the rest of the game. Even if it had clicked Protect, it was at risk of a Tera Ice Blast. It also got a T-Wave on the Clef.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2091214542?p2
(Thundy snipes the Gliscor and gets off a Para on the Serperior double switch. Even if they stayed in and Body Pressed the Thundy, paralyzing the Zama would be advantageous for Gambit. Also Thundy claims another kill with Tbolt after Gambit switches into two Tera Ice Blasts.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2091196035
(Thundy snipes the Gliscor with Tera Ice Blast and proceeds to cripple Dragapult with T-Wave, opening up the win for Ironpress Zama.)
[Gen 9] OU (Rating: 1658) 658Greninja vs. dct1 ak
(Thundy didn’t do much in this game admittedly, but it lured a huge threat to the team which was the Raging Bolt, meaning I can preserve Booster on Treads.)
[Gen 9] OU (Rating: 1624) 658Greninja vs. crowlignt
(Thundy takes out Ting-Lu with Tera Ice Blast and cripples the Dragapult, opening up Moth as my win condition, only twarted by the Tera Dark Ghold.)
Verdict: Thundy-I can act as a hybrid between Dragapult and Zapdos with Knock Off. Its toolkit allows it to remain relevant vs offensive and defensive matchups. Due to its ability to cripple special walls and fast offensive threats, Thundy enables threats like Primarina, Zamazenta, Kingambit, Volcarona, Kyurem, Samurott-H, and Dragapult. Its strengths are also very notable with Spike support. Imo an underrated anti-lead and one deserving to be in the VR for its unique niche.
Since I’m feeling generous today. I got a couple other noms.
A+ > S-
A > A+
A > A+
B+ > A-
B+ > A-
B > B+
B- > B
D > C
A+ > A
A+ > A
A- > B+
B > B-
B > C+
C > D
D > UR
Thundurus-I: UR > C
Sets
(offensive thundy)
Thundurus @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Focus Sash/Custap Berry/Magnet
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ice/Grass
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Tera Blast/Grass Knot
- Knock Off
- Thunder Wave
EV Details: 208 Speed Modest outruns max speed Lando. 48 HP allows it to live hits at full such as
(bulky thundy)
Thundurus @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Custap Berry/Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 192 HP / 108 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Tera Blast
- Knock Off
- Thunder Wave
EV Details: A bulkier spread that lets Thundy-I live more hits at full such as E-Belt
For those who are unaware, I am the Thundurus whisperer, and I will break down why I’ve been using it in serious games, as well as why it should be ranked.
Reason #1: Priority Thunder Wave
Thundurus-I has the rare access to priority T-Wave thanks to Prankster, giving it a solid matchup into HO/BO. Prankster T-Wave is particulary valuable for crippling fast offensive threats or sweepers, and even bulky walls which can clutch important matches. Keep in mind that it can’t T-Wave are Garg, Ghold, Dark types, Electric types, and Ground types. However Thundy is not a one trick pony.
Reason 2: Knock Off
Unlike its competition
Reason 3: Solid Balance Matchup
Vs Balance, Thundy STABS + Tera Ice Blast, threatens the likes of
Reason 4: Good Offensive Synergy
Because of Thundy’s ability to break through bulkier builds with Boltbeam/Boltknot and Knock Off, it synergizes well with many top Pokemon such as
Reason 5: Role Compression
Thundy can compress the role of speed control, anti-lead, and wallbreaker, thus never being deadweight in any matchup.
Heavy-Duty Boots is self-explanatory. Prevents Thundy from taking 25% from rocks, and gives Thundy more switch-in opportunities.
Sash lets Thundy act as a better anti-lead. The stuff it can 1v1 or cripple includes
48 HP and 192 HP Thundy can live the aformentioned hits from it, potentially activating Custap Berry and letting Thundy get a surprise KO, potentially vs
Magnet boosts Thundy’s Tbolt, letting it
OHKO on 80 HP
2HKO on bulky
3HKO on
As per everytime a UR mon is nommed, here are some calcs and replays. Also a link to the original Thundy post, the original nom, and a RMT featuring it, all of which contain some of the replays here.
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 464-546 (106.9 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tera Ice Thundurus Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 464-548 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tera Ice Thundurus Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 484-576 (137.5 - 163.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 174-206 (33.8 - 40%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Tera Grass Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 260-308 (50.5 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Tera Grass Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 338-398 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 226-266 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 278-330 (79.2 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tera Ice Thundurus Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 308-366 (75.6 - 89.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 392-464 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tera Ice Thundurus Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 356-420 (112.3 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 169-201 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta: 139-165 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 171-202 (60.8 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tera Ice Thundurus Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 204-240 (44 - 51.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 356-422 (89 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 470-554 (99.7 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 332-392 (103.4 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 204-241 (53.9 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 163-193 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 145-172 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 205-243 (53.3 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 178-211 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (after rocks and after losing lefties)
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 285-336 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 464-546 (106.9 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tera Ice Thundurus Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 464-548 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tera Ice Thundurus Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 484-576 (137.5 - 163.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 174-206 (33.8 - 40%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Tera Grass Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 260-308 (50.5 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Tera Grass Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 338-398 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 226-266 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 278-330 (79.2 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tera Ice Thundurus Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 308-366 (75.6 - 89.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 392-464 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tera Ice Thundurus Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 356-420 (112.3 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 169-201 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta: 139-165 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 171-202 (60.8 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tera Ice Thundurus Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 204-240 (44 - 51.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 356-422 (89 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 470-554 (99.7 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 332-392 (103.4 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 204-241 (53.9 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 163-193 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 145-172 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 205-243 (53.3 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 178-211 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (after rocks and after losing lefties)
252+ SpA Magnet Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 285-336 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 178-210 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 249-294 (80 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 120-142 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 202-238 (64.9 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
76 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 182-216 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 216-255 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 243-286 (78.1 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Dread Plate Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 195-229 (62.7 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 244-288 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 293-346 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 289-342 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 283-334 (81.5 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Stone Edge vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 276-326 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 216-255 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 249-294 (80 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 120-142 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 202-238 (64.9 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
76 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 182-216 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 216-255 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 243-286 (78.1 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Dread Plate Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 195-229 (62.7 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 244-288 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 293-346 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 289-342 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 283-334 (81.5 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Stone Edge vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 276-326 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 216-255 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2091228982
(Vs Mimikyu Stardust, Thundy was able to T-Wave the CB Pult turn 1, a solid anti-lead against other offensive leads. If it was Hexpult, it would’ve opened up the endgame for Zama.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2092683262?p2
(Thundy scares off the Pult lead due to Prankster T-Wave. Thundy would’ve been able to live the Ivy from Wogre, but it crit. It didn’t matter anyways since ID Zama cleaned the rest of the team)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2092695514?p2
(Thundy clicks Knock on the Gliscor, eliminating Poison Heal for the rest of the game. Even if it had clicked Protect, it was at risk of a Tera Ice Blast. It also got a T-Wave on the Clef.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2091214542?p2
(Thundy snipes the Gliscor and gets off a Para on the Serperior double switch. Even if they stayed in and Body Pressed the Thundy, paralyzing the Zama would be advantageous for Gambit. Also Thundy claims another kill with Tbolt after Gambit switches into two Tera Ice Blasts.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2091196035
(Thundy snipes the Gliscor with Tera Ice Blast and proceeds to cripple Dragapult with T-Wave, opening up the win for Ironpress Zama.)
[Gen 9] OU (Rating: 1658) 658Greninja vs. dct1 ak
(Thundy didn’t do much in this game admittedly, but it lured a huge threat to the team which was the Raging Bolt, meaning I can preserve Booster on Treads.)
[Gen 9] OU (Rating: 1624) 658Greninja vs. crowlignt
(Thundy takes out Ting-Lu with Tera Ice Blast and cripples the Dragapult, opening up Moth as my win condition, only twarted by the Tera Dark Ghold.)
Verdict: Thundy-I can act as a hybrid between Dragapult and Zapdos with Knock Off. Its toolkit allows it to remain relevant vs offensive and defensive matchups. Due to its ability to cripple special walls and fast offensive threats, Thundy enables threats like Primarina, Zamazenta, Kingambit, Volcarona, Kyurem, Samurott-H, and Dragapult. Its strengths are also very notable with Spike support. Imo an underrated anti-lead and one deserving to be in the VR for its unique niche.
Since I’m feeling generous today. I got a couple other noms.
Checking every single physical attacker in the tier, yes. Utility with Roar? Fast speed and good coverage? Hell yeah. It fits on any style except Stall. Roar Ironpress is great as usual, but other sets like HDB 4atks, CB with Future Sight support, Ironpress Heavy Slam, and even LO on Webs. It can legit pick and choose what it loses to due to its set variety + Tera. Zama’s bulk and speed is simply amazing. Easily Top 5 in my eyes.
Offers excellent utility on offense and you can never truly know if it’s Mixed, SD, or CM in preview. Specs is a sleeper set that messes up builds lacking Glowking. The set variety possible with Valiant is crazy. Even LO 4 attacks just to fuck up Balance builds which have been on the rise since March. There’s even been some crazy sets like Atk Booster Tera Ghost we’ve seen. The unpredictability and versatility Valiant provides makes it a top tier poke still.
Primarina is amazing rn. CM Prim has no defensive switch ins besides Glowking which loses to Tera Steel, Blissey who loses to Psychic Noise + Tera Ghost, and WA Clod. Most Prim builds though are good at pressuring Gking and putting it in death range to two +1 Surfs. Primarina’s bulk and defensive typing trades hits with a bunch of offensive threats like Dragapult, Darkrai, Samurott, Volcarona, Weavile, Gouging Fire, and Zamazenta. Primarina’s ability to excel in any matchup makes it A+ material.
For its hazard control niche and surprisingly intimidating offensive presence, Cinder should at least rise. BO and HO lack sturdy Fire resists, while U-Turn allows Cinderace to be valuable in the Balance matchup. Sucker allows Cinderace to pick off weakened offensive threats while coverage like Low Kick or Gunk Shot hits targets like Garganacl, Heatran, and Primarina. AoA sets are also underrated when paired with other offensive threats like Raging Bolt.
It is passive and exclusive to Stall/Balance, but it pioneers both to higher levels. Corv/Clod/Volc is an incredible defensive core that covers several matchups. Unaware Clodsire is one of the best special walls in the tier, blanking threats like Ghold, Raging Bolt, Volc, Darkrai, Moth, Enam, Zapdos, Serp, etc. Water Absorb Clod is an underrated pick. Hard countering non-Psychic move Primarina, allowing defensive teams to pivot around Wogre, and completely blanking Mola. Water Absorb also helps with Volcanion who sometimes drops Earth Power for Sludge Wave to hit Primarina. Clod can also cover its weaknesses like Substitute or Taunt with Pjab which has a 30% chance to poison targets like Tusk on the switch. It’s also a decent hazard setter and pairs nicely with stuff like Corv, Clef, Mola, Garg, Knock Tusk, or anything that threatens chip on Great Tusk. It’s not as good as Lando/Ting/Tusk/Gliscor, but its valuable traits are worth the A- rank.
Some players, including Finch agrees that Scizor is underrated. It provides excellent role compression with Knock, BP, U-Turn, and being a Steel type not weak to Earth Power but still resists Ice, making it a solid Kyurem checks. It also boasts great matchups into Valiant, Grasspon, Rilla, Weavile, etc. Either HDB, or Band, or even Cloak are good on Scizor. Even outside of the offensive matchup, Scizor’s ability to force progress and maintain momentum ensures it’s not deadweight. One set I come to respect is this.
Scizor @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 144 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Tera Blast/Close Combat
- U-turn
4HKOd by Darkrai’s Dark Pulse at full (3HKOd after rocks). It also helps BO teams play around Primarina, Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, Specs Dragapult, Kyurem, Deo-S, Valiant, etc. It has a chance to like Bulkarona’s Fiery Dance at full which is insane. Tera Water Blast is a nice tech option to surprise Fire types and smack Gliscor hard. Think of it as a slower Iron Crown that trades better special bulk and Future Sight for Knock, priority, and a better matchup into Darkrai. Cool mon that responds well to the recent meta.
Scizor @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 144 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Tera Blast/Close Combat
- U-turn
4HKOd by Darkrai’s Dark Pulse at full (3HKOd after rocks). It also helps BO teams play around Primarina, Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, Specs Dragapult, Kyurem, Deo-S, Valiant, etc. It has a chance to like Bulkarona’s Fiery Dance at full which is insane. Tera Water Blast is a nice tech option to surprise Fire types and smack Gliscor hard. Think of it as a slower Iron Crown that trades better special bulk and Future Sight for Knock, priority, and a better matchup into Darkrai. Cool mon that responds well to the recent meta.
Sp0oN1oRd convinced me that Sinistcha Balance is the way. Not only is it effective in its ability to check Wogre, but also responds well to a multitude of threats like Zama, Garganacl, Ursaluna, Dnite, Mola, and Tusk. Most of these are not super notable on Balance, but Garg, Luna, and Wogre are the big ones. The ability to flat out counter the biggest threats to bulky teams is an incredible niche, especially with Wogre BO and Mola Luna teams f Fat. Sinistcha no slouch offensively either. Grass/Ghost is a great offensive typing, but it’s only given to bad Pokes. Combined with its 121 SpA, many teams are uncomfortable with switching into it, even Kingambit risks a burn from Matcha Gotcha. Not only is it usable on Balance and Stall, but also BO because of what it offers.
Hoodra ain’t that bad. Its weak to Knock and hazards, but its pretty fucking annoying to switch into, especially with Knock in its arsenal. It also checks stuff like Wogre, Volc, Moth, and other random shit. Mola Balances are back in style, and any Wogre help is appreciated in this meta, so yeah.
Overhyped imo. There’s been some cool sets lately like Taunt 3Attacks and Lum Tera Fairy Blast, but it’s not liking many of the recent trends. Physically defensive pivots like Corv, Lando, and Mola increased in usage, when paired with Weavile, they have a relatively easy time denying sweeps. Has a difficult time finding setup opportunities compared to its competition Dragonite. HO is no longer the best archetype rn and Sun is less common.
This one’s a hot take. Many players have very uplifting opinions on Glowking, some saying it should even be S-. Don’t get me wrong. Glowking is a fantastic defensive pivot/special wall, and great into the Balance matchup, but often times in practice, it gets overwhelmed by Raging Bolt, Primarina, Volcarona, Iron Moth, and everything its tasked to check. Imo it’s not ideal to have Glowking as your only special wall. Glowking is also anti-synergistic with other Balance staples like Volcarona or Clefable by halving their Morning Sun/Moonlight recovery. Since Sun and Rain teams are notably less common than earlier this year, Glowking’s ability to reset weather is rarely needed. It’s also threatened by many top Pokes such as Lando, Tusk, Samu, Gambit, Ghold, Pult, Darkrai, etc. Some Balance teams have even started dropping Glowking in favor for other stuff like Clod, Garg, or SpD Dirge. Again, great mon, but somewhat overrated.
A- still doesn’t reflect Treads place in the tier. It rarely sees use outside of HO which is less common these days. Its Balance matchup is terrible and it’s a free invite for stuff like Mola. Its a valuable anti-HO lead that also only fits on HO ironically, but it has seen better days. Booster Attack Treads is mid btw, I’m not a believer, just use Tusks for that.
Speaking of mid. What an absolute downfall this thing went through. From being called suspect worthy to not even being OU via usage. Like with Treads, HO is less common. Its typing pre-Tera is horrible, struggles to break past even faster paced teams, is deadweight vs most Balances, and provides no utility other than speed. Val, Moon, Tusk, and other Booster sweepers can fill a somewhat defensive niche on top of being strong offensively. Maybe in the future, Boulder may comeback, but right now it’s looking rocky for it. (heh heh get it)
I still have no idea why this is above Zapdos, Tinkaton, and Hoopa. Loses to a ton of stuff, has a big 4MSS since its forced to run Protect for Scarfers/Booster, has difficulties with offensive staples like Dnite, Zama, Prima, and Lando. Mola, Dozo, and Gliscor are very common on Balance. Even though it packs a resistance to Sucker and Glide, it’s still vulnerable to being rkilled due to lackluster bulk. Cinderace and Gouging Fire are much better offensive Fire types.
Despite Balance making a comeback, Reuni is struggling to do anything. Terrible pure Psychic typing, overly Tera reliant, Encore food, 8 pp Recovers are easy to exhaust, Gen 9 butchered my boy. If you wanna ruin Balance, Hatt are Prima are right there.
As the person said above, this shit’s fake as hell. A terrible E-Terrain setter. Its not worth running in this meta. Simply too gimmicky. While we’re at it
Unrank these frauds as well.
Unrank these frauds as well.
My beloved Psychic-types except Hatterene feeling the brunt of the current meta
What does zarude do? Like I don't see a niche for this mon, it is a worse meowscarada in every regard, and meow is a mid mon. It has decent bulk, but that is undercut severly by its atrocius typing. If you want a bulky grass/dark type, use wo chien, and wo chien is a D rank mon. It can try some swords dance stuff or bulk up stuff I guess, but gambit, weavile and tusk do those jobs much better. I don't see why we kept this thing in the viability rankings.
I agree with the other mons in your post, but I'm not sure about your Zarude take.
I think it has a niche as a dedicated stallbreaker? Like one that you don't have to play *so* carefully with against stall persay.
In comparison: Wellspring, for instance, can't wear Boots, and if Wellspring Teras then it can lose to a Tera'd Dondozo since it loses Water Absorb.
I'm not saying at all that Zarude is better than Wellspring in the overall meta, it's not close in that regards, but Zarude seems to matchup against a variety of stalls better.
Zarude's combination of access to boots, stab Knock, Jungle Healing and Taunt is a special thing that alot of stalls would struggle against, I believe.
I'm tagging knexhawk here because that's someone I can think of that knows stall way better than I do.
Seems to me that most good stall players and teams are built to answer meow, gambit, weavile, and tusk pretty consistently.
I agree with most of these. But regarding Glowking… I still strongly believe it deserves A+, or even S-. AV Glowking is the better set, IMO, and still has unparalleled effectiveness as a special tank. Specs Kyurem is still a menace, Volcarona runs wild, and Iron Moth just rose to OU. AV Glowking effectively deals with these mons and many more, including Special Valiant, Enam, Zamazenta, Wake, and Primarina (at worst Glowking forces a Tera Steel so that common ground type partners can revenge kill Prim).
The amazing thing about AV Glowking is that four attacks (Psyshock/Future Sight, Sludge Bomb, Flamethrower, Ice Beam) is an absolute menace that hits most of the meta for super effective and can afford considerable Spa investment. Glowking lures in common steels like Gambit and Glowking which each take 50% on the switch-in from Flamethrower. Invested Ice beam, meanwhile, nukes Gliscor and deals massive damage to Pult. Speaking of Pult, Tera Fairy Glowking becomes one of the best Pult checks in the meta. You also gain an emergency Dark resist if you want to finish off that Gambit for the remaining 50%.
Psyshock is amazing on AV Glowking. With some Spa investment you guarantee a 2HKO on offensive Volc and have a good chance to OHKO Iron Moth. If anything, Glowking should stay put or rise to reflect the increased usage of both Moths.
Lastly, you mentioned yourself before that hazards are easier to manage with declining Ghold usage and slow spikers being easier to exploit. So AV Glowking worries less about hazards than before given the right support.
TLDR: Glowking is still the GOAT and shouldn’t be dropped. Use AV :)
I always love fact checking replays for random noms so here goes:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2091228982
Claim: (Vs Mimikyu Stardust, Thundy was able to T-Wave the CB Pult turn 1, a solid anti-lead against other offensive leads. If it was Hexpult, it would’ve opened up the endgame for Zama.
Actual: Lead thundurus clicks t-wave vs lead dragapult and fucking dies :( Idk your team well enough to say if this was a good play but nothing abt the play really sold me on thund.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2092683262?p2
Claim: (Thundy scares off the Pult lead due to Prankster T-Wave. Thundy would’ve been able to live the Ivy from Wogre, but it crit. It didn’t matter anyways since ID Zama cleaned the rest of the team)
Actual: Thund only gets one t-wave off due to the bad luck crit but forcing out pult with prankster t-wave off the lead is clutch to gain early momentum. Prankster t-wave looks pretty good here and i see the potential.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2092695514?p2
Claim: (Thundy clicks Knock on the Gliscor, eliminating Poison Heal for the rest of the game. Even if it had clicked Protect, it was at risk of a Tera Ice Blast. It also got a T-Wave on the Clef.)
Actual: If the opponent had known thund had knock off he would've protected turn one with no real risk and the whole "advantage" from knock off would be negated. As we will see in the next two replays thund can just commit tera ice and deal with gliscor anyways, but this is a bad example of knock off being useful since any player that sees thund coming will know to protect. Additionally, this game highlights thund's lack of power, as it is walled by clef. Para + knock is cool but i feel like its potential impact to break balance or stall cores with dedicated knock absorbers is a little overstated.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2091214542?p2
Claim: (Thundy snipes the Gliscor and gets off a Para on the Serperior double switch. Even if they stayed in and Body Pressed the Thundy, paralyzing the Zama would be advantageous for Gambit. Also Thundy claims another kill with Tbolt after Gambit switches into two Tera Ice Blasts.)
Actual: Thund eats this game. Kills the gliscor early and then the opponent has no check. I think this game best illustrates thund's actual niche. Fast electric plus ice honestly fucks a lot of shit up, its why sandy shocks can feel like such a ladder menace. However with boots and good speed without booster, you can actually justify switching in and out to break during the midgame, which makes the tera commit feel more justifiable. Personally thund being so good in this game convinced me thund has merits.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2091196035
Claim: (Thundy snipes the Gliscor with Tera Ice Blast and proceeds to cripple Dragapult with T-Wave, opening up the win for Ironpress Zama.)
Actual: Thund does the same thing as above: tera ice to kill a gliscor and then nothing on the opposing team can safely switch into it more than once. However, this game does highlight how lack of power into things like zama do higlight that in a kill/trade contest thund is too weak to go kill for kill, meaning it can often be forced into a situation where it gets its kill and then you can either preserve to break with it later or take the thunder wave paralysis and sac thund in doing so. This shows some limitations even in good matchups: is an early tera commit for a kill trade plus para worth it?
[Gen 9] OU (Rating: 1658) 658Greninja vs. dct1 ak
Claim: (Thundy didn’t do much in this game admittedly, but it lured a huge threat to the team which was the Raging Bolt, meaning I can preserve Booster on Treads.)
Actual: Again we see how thund can be super good vs offense if you commit tera. Tera ice lands a kill, and then thund is in a position to thunder wave a roaring moon out of commission to get a quazi 2 for 1 trade. Not sure why thunder wave wasnt clicked, but it could've been. But again, was it worth the tera?
[Gen 9] OU (Rating: 1624) 658Greninja vs. crowlignt
Claim: (Thundy takes out Ting-Lu with Tera Ice Blast and cripples the Dragapult, opening up Moth as my win condition, only twarted by the Tera Dark Ghold.)
Actual: Thund takes out a suicide lead ting lu in like 10 turns thats only looking to get max hazards. It then paralyzes a pult as pult kills it, basically making the game a 5-4 but the opponent has momentum and max hazards. Honestly not a great showing.
VERDICT:
Watching these replays, I think thund has some real merits as a fast electric type. Electric + ice coverage is deadly because the dragon and ground spam in OU is real. However, like sandy shocks, thund both misses out on this crucial coverage if it doesnt tera, and it lacks the raw muscle in its electric stab to break more designated special walls. Knock is a cool gimmick, but I did not see knock off specifically leveraged to break any balance or stall cores, likely because most of the replays were HO vs HO. Basically, thund was good because with tera it could almost always get a kill vs offense and paralyze something else, which in offense v offense is a often de facto a 2 for one trade.
A thing I would question is the EV choice, as both bulky and 48 hp modest thund seemed suboptimal. It seems better to just leverage the 111 speed to outspeed woger than get cute with EV spreads, and modest isnt helping thund kill anything that isnt frail offense anyways.
Additionally, I don't know if any item except boots has the viability you claim it does in your sample sets. But I digress as I have never tested thund myself.
Honestly idk what half of the shitmons in C tier actually do, and a dangerous fast electric type with anti-offense tools seems tangible enough to maybe deserve a spot there. But at the same time, in the replays given thund does give off "6th shitmon on HO" vibes, as in the 6th fun meme mon on an otherwise super dangerous HO team that can sometimes do something (especially with tera and surprise factor) but doesn't actually have a real niche you'd need it to cover.
Regardless, good post. Will test thund later.
if i as a stall player ever lose to zarude I will be embarrassed. Ur either taunt bu knock jungle which is food for every clefable, jab gliscor, wo chien, body press dozo, etc etc or if its grass stab then its either no taunt or no healing moves
aka its garbage
how are u the 3rd best grass/dark type when ur a mythical pokemon i will never know
I disagree. The team I used Zarude in was not optimal, but my structure was like this:
BU + Synthesis Tera Poison Zarude.
Torkoal (with Rocks).
Clodsire (with Spikes, other Spikers would also work, for example Sandy Shocks)
Tusk (offensive with Knock + Spin)
2 other Sun abussers
The strat is to abuse Leaf Guard ability while in Sun, preventing Zarude from being poisoned by Gliscor. Zarude forces switches and uses BU, knocking items from Stall Mons. If Sun runs up and Gliscor comes back, Zarude Tera Poisons vs it, with enough BU Boosts, EQ doesn't do much.
The goal is not to sweep with Zarude, but to Knock enough Boots, so that Stall teams start suffering from Hazards that Torkoal or our Spiker has put. Most Stalls nowadays are F***ing TERRIBLE and don't even bother using a hazard removal, so they will collapse to our hazards + Zarude + other Sun abussers.
It's very niche, but is a legitimate niche and no other Mon abuses Leaf Guard as well as Zarude does.
Dark types are immune to Prankster.
I do wish I had more replays vs Balance, but most of my games were laddering vs HO/BO.
Edit: I actually do have another replay I could showcase.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2099179639
(Thundy lands a turn 1 Thunder Wave on the Glowking after scaring off the Grasspon. Turn 5 I U-Turn on Lando to bring in Thundy who threatens with Tera Blast Ice. They switch to Glowking, removing Boots and chipping it down a bit. It was a good midground here in chance the Lando stayed in. Turn 12, Thundy comes in after Prim kills the Grasspon and they switch into Lando, then they pivot into Glowking where I click Knock. Tbolt puts Glowking at 15%. With RH Lando, I chip the Gambit. Turn 17 I finally Tera Ice and nuke the Lando, then I go into my own Lando to chip Gambit. After sacking Lando, I switch to Zama and double into Thundy on the predicted Pult/Prim switch, getting a kill on Prim and Gambit who was put in range of Tbolt thanks to chip from Spikes and Helmet. This replay also shows its synergy with other offensive pokes.)
Last edited:
Hahaha yeh I forgot abt that lol. I feel like it's a right of passage to forget that at least once a month :)
Most stall Gliscor run Poison Jab in their fourth moveslot to get around hatterene, which also kinda destroys zarude. It doesn't do the most damage, but it still can 4hit ko zarude. Gliscor also commonly runs knock off and not e-quake on stall, though if it does then it can be 3hit ko'd by e-quake. If gliscor is running both poison jab and e-quake, then zarude is kinda screwed, and gliscor is a very common mon on stall. Clefable also can kinda take advantage of the sun and stall zarude out for a bit, +1 power whip does not outdamage moonlight healing in the sun. Clodsire and dondozo can also in a pinch wall it. Clodsire can take 1 power whip and fire back either a poison jab or e-quake. Dondozo can get a curse off and then try to stall out the zarude. If it gets lucky on a rest turn by getting another curse, then its ggs. A grass type not being able to beat dozo reliably is not good. I know that's a very niche scenario, but that's meant to show how it can't destroy stall, there are various ways around it.
It sounds like a cool set, but it sounds so incredibly niche that its not worth keeping on the VR. Being relegated to 1 playstyle (I don't see another playstyle where it is working, but somebody could prove me wrong) where it destroys one playstyle is so small of a niche that its like an E rank mon. Again, cool set and if it worked for you then thats fine, but the stall team could reasonably play around it.
Feels like in all of these instances Zarude either provides immediate value via knock or beats the mons you listed.
- Pjab Gliscor does not destroy Zarude in the slightest, it's fodder to Bulk Up which doesn't even 4HKO after a single Bulk Up
- Non Unaware Clefable crumbles to Zarude after a Bulk Up, Moonlight outrecovering means nothing when you can just Bulk Up again, as well as the fact it can't do anything into Tera Poison Zarude. Unaware Clefable just gets knocked, allowing the rest of the team to pressure
- Clodsire gets 2hko'd by Power Whip, so does Dondozo, yeah of course it loses if Dondozo gets a free Curse turn, that's every physical attacker in the game. Anyway it knocks both allowing it to win a second scenario in the future.
There's no real counterplay stall teams can cook up when they're so reliant on boots being active, while Zarude walls the most common knock absorber, as well as the second after Tera Poison.
Pjab Gliscor does kinda destroy it. Yes, it doesn't 4hit ko after a bulk up, but power whip isn't a guarenteed 2hit ko on gliscor after a single bulk up. Gliscor could easily tera if its really threatened by zarude, tera dragon walls the hell out of zarude, and the sun will eventually end, meaning it will eventually be forced to tera poison, and still do no damage. Even at +6, knock is doing 83% max when gliscor has no item.
Non unaware clefable is able to knock off zarude's item, and then the rest of the team is able to wall it. Realistically in the sun matchup, clefable isn't doing too much. Sure, it can switch into draco's, but the sheer power of those teams means it can't reliably do it. Unaware clefable does hard wall it, so there is that.
I said that clodsire could take one power whip, so idk why you are trying to say that, I already acknoweleged that. I said, that in a pinch it can bulldoze or poison jab the zarude, which does decent damage to it thus meaning it has to heal and the stall team gets a bit of breathing room. Dondozo I will give you, but again, in a pinch it can wall it.
There is plenty of counterplay that stall teams can provide to beat zarude.
Corviknight
Talonflame (doesn't like losing boots, but it can work in a pinch)
Toxapex
Amoonguss
Hydrapple
Weezing galar
Skarmory
Mandibuzz
Moltres (like talon, doesn't like losing boots)
Muk
And that's just up to B rank, most likely there is more. You can fit these easily onto a team. Hydrapple and Muk don't even care about knock. So yeah, a mon that destroys some stall teams that is fit onto one playstyle seems like an UR mon to me.
I agree that Zarude is probably too niche to be listed, but there are at least some things I want to address in here. I'm going to assume the Bulk Up Tera Poison set matches the sample on the Strategy Dex, for a point of reference
- Gliscor can't exactly do anything back to BU Zarude as noted, and Jungle Healing has equal PP to Toxic so Gliscor can't win the Status Race outside Sun even if Zarude never Teras. As for Gliscor itself Tera-ing, yes that should get it over Zarude itself but it's fair to say that's a cost on the Stall player's part both for someone else potentially wanting Tera as is always possible (and if Zarude is this niche then odds are Gliscor Teraing for it, much less with a less common Tera, probably isn't in your usual gameplan), and Gliscor REALLY liking its Ground/Flying typing. This isn't a match up Gliscor comes out of better for the majority of the time described.
- Toxapex isn't quite a hard stop on the level of things listed like Amoongus, Hydrapple, or Corviknight. The P. DEF set takes 48.8 - 57.7% from +1 Power Whip (assuming Zarude Boosted on the switch-in turn), and 33 - 38.9% from +0 if Zarude were to go for one immediately after Haze. This means Pex absolutely must avoid being Knocked or Chipped-post-Regenerator since that combodoes 81% to it with no Hazards, and if it's not the P DEF set then it's 2HKO'd by +1 and +0 Power Whip together (if it goes for Haze) while Recover can't outheal +1 (meaning it can't keep a +1 off Zarude). Given Zarude also has the role of a Knock Off user this makes switching in to check it in the first place a Dangerous proposition for Pex.
For the most part I agree a lot of these Stall members do stop Zarude, but two of these staples do have to be wary beyond absorbing Knock Off. I think there was a time where I proposed Zarude might have useability back in like Home/early DLC1, but it was more as a weird answer to certain Balance and Glue mons like Gholdengo, Utility Tusk eschewing CC, or Kingambit (for the SD set running Close Combat). The issue is the mon has a lot of tools that should make Stall hate fighting it (2 different solutions to Status, Knock Off, a STAB that's neutral-or-better into most mons while being able to Boost), but the 4MSS and questionable defensive profile sink it in too many match-ups without the raw power to break a target it's able to tank.
I think people forget Zarude also hits really hard. I haven’t used it much recently but straight up offensive Zarude with SD / Knock / Trailblaze / Close Combat with tera fighting is a pretty solid set in my experience, outspeeding Deoxys-S after a Trailblaze. Its knock off is the same strength as Weavile’s, and you still have really good bulk for an offensive Mon to help with setting up and tanking priority.
I haven’t messed around with fat sets that much but another option that might be worth looking into is Roar. Not sure exactly how it would fit in but roar+knock seems potentially pretty cool.
I haven’t messed around with fat sets that much but another option that might be worth looking into is Roar. Not sure exactly how it would fit in but roar+knock seems potentially pretty cool.
It's a challenging sweeper because of its good stats, typing, and move pool. Calm mind, agility, stored power, recovery, perfect coverage, and psychic noise. They can quickly run away with a game or do solid damage with just one calm mind, which only a few defensive mons can 1v1 or offense can switch into. It's just very difficult to kill once it's set up due to its bulk. It also had an 80% win rate in SPL because of its splashability.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-746763
Zapdos is an excellent defensive pivot with utility, and it can outspeed and beat many other defensive cores, like Lando-T or Great Tusks. Being able to outspeed bulky mons usually forces a difficult hurricane switch, keeping momentum better than other defensive pivots. It also has a niche typing, with ground immunity and steel/fighting resistance with static and discharge para chance. Overall it can be a superior physical pivot better at keeping momentum. Had a 60% win rate in SPL, primarily due to this versatility.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-749838
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-748293
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-753740
Solid wall breakers usually have a rich move pool that is versatile for breaking stalls; it definitely has a solid niche that has always made it really powerful, especially having new pivots. With the rise of mons like Alomomola, wall breakers are essential in the meta, and only a few of them have coverage, move pool, and stats like Hoopa-u. It's better than many wall breakers in the tier, isn't weak to unaware mons like Manaphy or Kingambit, and can run special, physical, or mixed. It also has decent bulk and can be challenging to revenge kill, especially for the stall. Had a 75% win rate in SPL despite low usage.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-752781
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-746270
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-751207
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-745106
This mon is a threatening late game priority sweeper on HO. Requires enough momentum to weaken armor and SD, but it can quickly sweep with a bitter blade or do a lot of damage to win. Had a ⅔ win rate in SPL because HO is so strong.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-752839
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-751207
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-751207
Sun is a viable hyper offense, and Ninetails is viable over Torakoal since it loses less momentum. It's stronger than Torkoal with sun overheat and doesn't lend itself to being setup fodder.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-751207
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-744628
I also agree with all of 658Greninja's explainations. They illustrate the tier's new viability shifts. Many apparent viability changes have occurred in the past few months, like Primarina and Roaring Moon. The only nom I disagree with is Cinderace because I'm not sure if its stats reflect its viability yet. Zamazenta and Gliscor are the strongest of A+ if the council creates a second S tier.
Attachments
Last edited:
Asking for Slither Wing to be considered on the VR. Banded is ass, don't use it unless you want to be swept by any setup mon in existence. The best set is actually a bulky offensive wisp spreader who threatens with First Impression. Wing's First Impression is currently the most powerful option for priority other than at least 3 Fallen Kingambit, and it hits a lot of the top offensive threats for good damage. Meows, Boulder, Weav, Moon, Deoxys-S, Serp, Rilla, Darkrai, Rott, Gren and Ogerpon all need a Tera to survive, and sometimes that doesn't even save them for the ones that use offensive Teras that lack a bug resist. It can be a safe switchin to stuff like Meows going for a dark/grass/bug move and can even take non-banded triple axel decently well, though not after hazards. Same for Weavile. Slither Wing's best set is definitely a bulky priority set with Willo, Morning Sun, CC/U-Turn, First Impression, 76 attack, 8-12 speed, and the rest into HP and Defense, prioritizing defense to get more overall bulk against physical attackers. Boulder can't 2hko when unboosted (when lacking the niche zen headbutt, which doesn't KO), even with several layers of hazards (it needs 25% total chip to get a chance for a 2hko). It doesn't need to many speed EVs to outspeed Kingambit, who it can either CC or Willo if expecting a tera. It also can bait in Great Tusk to get a burn off, making it unable to beat a powerful attacker like Kingambit or Roaring Moon in the back. Even on a switch into Valiant, Dengo, Pult, etc., Wing can either predict and U-Turn immediately, or just tank a hit and bring in your check/counter chip-free. Overall, it is not deserving of unranked, and definitely needs at least a C rank. It is leagues better than all of the D ranks and is on par or better than almost all of the C ranks.
In plowing through the ladder all the way to 1950 in the span of ~2 days, I offer my support in advocating for an already-existing nomination. That is, rising Primarina from "A to A+". But while 658Greninja briefly utilizes Primarina's stellar "bulk and defensive typing" as his backbone for establishing the Water-Fairy type as an A+ threat in the SV OU metagame, I'd like to diverge and instead emphasize an entirely different route.
The set I'm focusing on is as follows:
Primarina (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Steel/Fairy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Moonblast
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet/Psychic/Hydro Pump
Choice Specs Primarina is an absolute menace. Sure, generations 7 & 8 established Water/Fairy as one of the best defensive types in the game; however, with the presence of phenomenal resists in Ferrothorn and Toxapex, Tapu Fini mainly established itself as an elite defensive defogger that checks both Heatran and Ash-Greninja in one slot. And that perception of Water/Fairy as a behemoth of a defensive type still rightfully persists in generation 9: the existence of bulky variants of Primarina makes enabling progress that much harder for many of SV OU's fiercest threats, including Dragapult, Volcarona, Iron Valiant, and many others. But this image of the Water/Fairy type being so good defensively has surely casted a shadow over how incredible it is offensively, which explains why people rarely utilizes Choice Specs variants on the ladder (I've personally met ZERO opponents using a specs variant in my climb). However,
A quick look at the VR shows that from the entirety of the A- to S rank, there is ONLY ONE pokemon that can safely take a specs-boosted Moonblast. And even if Galarian Slowking is able to withstand Primarina's Moonblast, it takes 45% from Surf without Torrent, meaning that if Primarina is healthy enough to take a Sludge Bomb (it does ~70%) or commits a Tera Steel, that G-Slowking can no longer be used to check Primarina or any other special attackers it wants to take on. Of course, not every team can afford a G-Slowking to stomatch the lethal Moonblasts that Primarina is able to constantly dish out. In playing against such teams, Primarina's stellar Water/Fairy type and special bulk allows it plenty of opportunities to enter; once in, a simple click on "Moonblast" will tear the opposing team to utter shreds. Thus, Primarina's stellar strength in its ability to make impactful progress against teams of any archetype, ranging from Stall to Hyper Offense, in each and every single game is 100% deserving of an A+ rank. Its sheer versality in packing Calm Mind/AV/Specs set allow players the ability to easily tailor Primarina in a way that best fit their team; all of these set achieve the same goal, however, of forcing progress against any team of any archetype. All of these strengths combine to lead to no reason to believe that Primarina is any less inferior than A+ threats like Kyurem, Waterpon, and Roaring Moon; therefore, I once again advocate the rise of Primarina from A to A+.
Edit: changed my ladder climb from "1895" to "1950" and updated my proof.
The set I'm focusing on is as follows:
Primarina (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Steel/Fairy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Moonblast
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet/Psychic/Hydro Pump
Choice Specs Primarina is an absolute menace. Sure, generations 7 & 8 established Water/Fairy as one of the best defensive types in the game; however, with the presence of phenomenal resists in Ferrothorn and Toxapex, Tapu Fini mainly established itself as an elite defensive defogger that checks both Heatran and Ash-Greninja in one slot. And that perception of Water/Fairy as a behemoth of a defensive type still rightfully persists in generation 9: the existence of bulky variants of Primarina makes enabling progress that much harder for many of SV OU's fiercest threats, including Dragapult, Volcarona, Iron Valiant, and many others. But this image of the Water/Fairy type being so good defensively has surely casted a shadow over how incredible it is offensively, which explains why people rarely utilizes Choice Specs variants on the ladder (I've personally met ZERO opponents using a specs variant in my climb). However,
A quick look at the VR shows that from the entirety of the A- to S rank, there is ONLY ONE pokemon that can safely take a specs-boosted Moonblast. And even if Galarian Slowking is able to withstand Primarina's Moonblast, it takes 45% from Surf without Torrent, meaning that if Primarina is healthy enough to take a Sludge Bomb (it does ~70%) or commits a Tera Steel, that G-Slowking can no longer be used to check Primarina or any other special attackers it wants to take on. Of course, not every team can afford a G-Slowking to stomatch the lethal Moonblasts that Primarina is able to constantly dish out. In playing against such teams, Primarina's stellar Water/Fairy type and special bulk allows it plenty of opportunities to enter; once in, a simple click on "Moonblast" will tear the opposing team to utter shreds. Thus, Primarina's stellar strength in its ability to make impactful progress against teams of any archetype, ranging from Stall to Hyper Offense, in each and every single game is 100% deserving of an A+ rank. Its sheer versality in packing Calm Mind/AV/Specs set allow players the ability to easily tailor Primarina in a way that best fit their team; all of these set achieve the same goal, however, of forcing progress against any team of any archetype. All of these strengths combine to lead to no reason to believe that Primarina is any less inferior than A+ threats like Kyurem, Waterpon, and Roaring Moon; therefore, I once again advocate the rise of Primarina from A to A+.
Edit: changed my ladder climb from "1895" to "1950" and updated my proof.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2103133875
Versus Stall. Primarina nearly kills G-Slowking at the beginning of the game, opening up Rillaboom to "Wood Hammer" down the defensive cores of stall.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102855139
Versus Balance. Specs-boosted Surfs were too much for even a Sp.Def G-Slowking, leading to a quick breakdown of the team for an Iron Moth victory.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102723167
Versus Bulky Offense. Primarina's Specs-boosted Moonblast and Surf claims 3 crucial kills for a deadly Kingambit endgame.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2103132044-6z9jjafosmqcm7buut77ryeflxag6t9pw?p2
Versus Offense. A fortunate crit into Waterpon allows Primarina to skip the 6% chance to OHKO with Moonblast. An additional 90% into Kingambit renders the S-tier sucker threat useless, allowing for an easy endgame.
Versus Stall. Primarina nearly kills G-Slowking at the beginning of the game, opening up Rillaboom to "Wood Hammer" down the defensive cores of stall.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102855139
Versus Balance. Specs-boosted Surfs were too much for even a Sp.Def G-Slowking, leading to a quick breakdown of the team for an Iron Moth victory.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102723167
Versus Bulky Offense. Primarina's Specs-boosted Moonblast and Surf claims 3 crucial kills for a deadly Kingambit endgame.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2103132044-6z9jjafosmqcm7buut77ryeflxag6t9pw?p2
Versus Offense. A fortunate crit into Waterpon allows Primarina to skip the 6% chance to OHKO with Moonblast. An additional 90% into Kingambit renders the S-tier sucker threat useless, allowing for an easy endgame.
Attachments
Last edited:
Wasn't convinced until I saw standard Alolomola drop to one MoonblastIn plowing through the ladder all the way to 1895 in the span of ~2 days, I offer my support in advocating for an already-existing nomination. That is, rising Primarina from "A to A+". But while 658Greninja briefly utilizes Primarina's stellar "bulk and defensive typing" as his backbone for establishing the Water-Fairy type as an A+ threat in the SV OU metagame, I'd like to diverge and instead emphasize an entirely different route.
The set I'm focusing on is as follows:
Primarina (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Steel/Fairy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Moonblast
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet/Psychic/Hydro Pump
Choice Specs Primarina is an absolute menace. Sure, generations 7 & 8 established Water/Fairy as one of the best defensive types in the game; however, with the presence of phenomenal resists in Ferrothorn and Toxapex, Tapu Fini mainly established itself as an elite defensive defogger that checks both Heatran and Ash-Greninja in one slot. And that perception of Water/Fairy as a behemoth of a defensive type still rightfully persists in generation 9: the existence of bulky variants of Primarina makes enabling progress that much harder for many of SV OU's fiercest threats, including Dragapult, Volcarona, Iron Valiant, and many others. But this image of the Water/Fairy type being so good defensively has surely casted a shadow over how incredible it is offensively, which explains why people rarely utilizes Choice Specs variants on the ladder (I've personally met ZERO opponents using a specs variant in my climb). However,
A quick look at the VR shows that from the entirety of the A- to S rank, there is ONLY ONE pokemon that can safely take a specs-boosted Moonblast. And even if Galarian Slowking is able to withstand Primarina's Moonblast, it takes 45% from Surf without Torrent, meaning that if Primarina is healthy enough to take a Sludge Bomb (it does ~70%) or commits a Tera Steel, that G-Slowking can no longer be used to check Primarina or any other special attackers it wants to take on. Of course, not every team can afford a G-Slowking to stomatch the lethal Moonblasts that Primarina is able to constantly dish out. In playing against such teams, Primarina's stellar Water/Fairy type and special bulk allows it plenty of opportunities to enter; once in, a simple click on "Moonblast" will tear the opposing team to utter shreds. Thus, Primarina's stellar strength in its ability to make impactful progress against teams of any archetype, ranging from Stall to Hyper Offense, in each and every single game is 100% deserving of an A+ rank. Its sheer versality in packing Calm Mind/AV/Specs set allow players the ability to easily tailor Primarina in a way that best fit their team; all of these set achieve the same goal, however, of forcing progress against any team of any archetype. All of these strengths combine to lead to no reason to believe that Primarina is any less inferior than A+ threats like Kyurem, Waterpon, and Roaring Moon; therefore, I once again advocate the rise of Primarina from A to A+.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2103133875
Versus Stall. Primarina nearly kills G-Slowking at the beginning of the game, opening up Rillaboom to "Wood Hammer" down the defensive cores of stall.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102855139
Versus Balance. Specs-boosted Surfs were too much for even a Sp.Def G-Slowking, leading to a quick breakdown of the team for an Iron Moth victory.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102723167
Versus Bulky Offense. Primarina's Specs-boosted Moonblast and Surf claims 3 crucial kills for a deadly Kingambit endgame.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2103132044-6z9jjafosmqcm7buut77ryeflxag6t9pw?p2
Versus Offense. A fortunate crit into Waterpon allows Primarina to skip the 6% chance to OHKO with Moonblast. An additional 90% into Kingambit renders the S-tier sucker threat useless, allowing for an easy endgame.
That's crazy, send this shit to A+ NOW.
I won't go nearly as in-depth but I will mention that I'm in support of it going to A+ and wanted to bring up Assault Vest Primarina. The main benefit I've been seeing with AV is just how well it blanket-checks so many special attackers in the tier. From volc, darkai, pult, enam, heatran, gouging fire, wake and a few more niches one like greninja, av allows it have the immense bulk it wants right away while still being able to invest in SPA all it wants. It can be used as the blanket checks on more offensive team who appreciate the typing and pivoting or be used on balance with tusk. AV prim also forms a great defensive synergy with Glowking as well with prim able to handle the darkais, gholdengo, pults, and generally take a lot off the pressure off of glowking to be a solo spd wall on balance. AV def does have some issue with longevity, but the immediate defense with the offense is def worth it.In plowing through the ladder all the way to 1950 in the span of ~2 days, I offer my support in advocating for an already-existing nomination. That is, rising Primarina from "A to A+". But while 658Greninja briefly utilizes Primarina's stellar "bulk and defensive typing" as his backbone for establishing the Water-Fairy type as an A+ threat in the SV OU metagame, I'd like to diverge and instead emphasize an entirely different route.
The set I'm focusing on is as follows:
Primarina (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Steel/Fairy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Moonblast
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet/Psychic/Hydro Pump
Choice Specs Primarina is an absolute menace. Sure, generations 7 & 8 established Water/Fairy as one of the best defensive types in the game; however, with the presence of phenomenal resists in Ferrothorn and Toxapex, Tapu Fini mainly established itself as an elite defensive defogger that checks both Heatran and Ash-Greninja in one slot. And that perception of Water/Fairy as a behemoth of a defensive type still rightfully persists in generation 9: the existence of bulky variants of Primarina makes enabling progress that much harder for many of SV OU's fiercest threats, including Dragapult, Volcarona, Iron Valiant, and many others. But this image of the Water/Fairy type being so good defensively has surely casted a shadow over how incredible it is offensively, which explains why people rarely utilizes Choice Specs variants on the ladder (I've personally met ZERO opponents using a specs variant in my climb). However,
A quick look at the VR shows that from the entirety of the A- to S rank, there is ONLY ONE pokemon that can safely take a specs-boosted Moonblast. And even if Galarian Slowking is able to withstand Primarina's Moonblast, it takes 45% from Surf without Torrent, meaning that if Primarina is healthy enough to take a Sludge Bomb (it does ~70%) or commits a Tera Steel, that G-Slowking can no longer be used to check Primarina or any other special attackers it wants to take on. Of course, not every team can afford a G-Slowking to stomatch the lethal Moonblasts that Primarina is able to constantly dish out. In playing against such teams, Primarina's stellar Water/Fairy type and special bulk allows it plenty of opportunities to enter; once in, a simple click on "Moonblast" will tear the opposing team to utter shreds. Thus, Primarina's stellar strength in its ability to make impactful progress against teams of any archetype, ranging from Stall to Hyper Offense, in each and every single game is 100% deserving of an A+ rank. Its sheer versality in packing Calm Mind/AV/Specs set allow players the ability to easily tailor Primarina in a way that best fit their team; all of these set achieve the same goal, however, of forcing progress against any team of any archetype. All of these strengths combine to lead to no reason to believe that Primarina is any less inferior than A+ threats like Kyurem, Waterpon, and Roaring Moon; therefore, I once again advocate the rise of Primarina from A to A+.
Edit: changed my ladder climb from "1895" to "1950" and updated my proof.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2103133875
Versus Stall. Primarina nearly kills G-Slowking at the beginning of the game, opening up Rillaboom to "Wood Hammer" down the defensive cores of stall.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102855139
Versus Balance. Specs-boosted Surfs were too much for even a Sp.Def G-Slowking, leading to a quick breakdown of the team for an Iron Moth victory.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102723167
Versus Bulky Offense. Primarina's Specs-boosted Moonblast and Surf claims 3 crucial kills for a deadly Kingambit endgame.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2103132044-6z9jjafosmqcm7buut77ryeflxag6t9pw?p2
Versus Offense. A fortunate crit into Waterpon allows Primarina to skip the 6% chance to OHKO with Moonblast. An additional 90% into Kingambit renders the S-tier sucker threat useless, allowing for an easy endgame.
Hi council man here, seems theres been a ton of discussion on the D Tiers and i would like to put some of my own thoughts here too since i really enjoy very niche mons.
Very alright wall breaker, i thought the rise of balance would bring life to this mon but it frankly just doesntdo enough damage. Choice band struggles againts hazards and still folds to a lot of common defensive mons like gliscor, garg and alo while being extremely easy to play around, even dragapult gives it hell. boots set with morning sun is really neat but doesn't do enough damage to warrant a slot over the other Slow-but-not-that-slow-and-definetly-not-fast breakers in the tier. However it is not so bad that i wouldnt see it being used ever, its still very strong but the flaws are really hard to overlook. I would put it in the bottom half of D.
Barraskewda is WAY TOO GOOD to pass up as a rain sweeper, but i can't hate on basculegion that much, the ghost typing for rain is godly since dragonite can effectively 6-0 any rain (theres a reason tera ghost skewda exist) and basculegion is bulky enough and strong enough to 1v1 it. I would say its wave crashes are much more powerful but it needing to be jolly to not lose to iron valiant is a hard sell. I guess you can run it alongside skewda but why run 2 of essentially the same mons when rain has so much more diverse threats that can pair up with one another to hit everyside of the opponents team. Basculegion works as a replacement for skewda that is bulkier and beats dragonite, but its less reliable and also MUCH slower, not a bad mon so prob towards the top of D.
See, this mon doesnt look bad on paper. Its super strong, has goated coverage, and beats kingambit but man that speed SUCKS. yea it can destroy gambit, ting-lu, dozo, clod and garg but you fight an offensive pokemon, even something as "meh" as keldeo or scizor, youre in a world of hurt. This pokemon also has a 4MSS where it wants to fit rock tomb, bulldoze, close combat and swords dance alongside bullet seed and mach punch. It has the potential to destroy balance but put it againts any offensive pokemon it just loses. D is the place for it, and its probably somewhere in the middle.
AV is pretty nice, but it struggles againts bulkier teams. it can 1v1 any offense but put it up againts anything bulky or can set up a hazard, it just loses. It has the opposite problem as breloom where if you put it 1v1 vs againts any offensive mon, you win, but if you put it up againts anything defensive like ting-lu or garg, you just lose. However, Goodra has far better utility so its probably the best mon in D tier.
Hippowdon is a really nice bulky sand setter which can help againts the many physical attacker on the tier. It sets up rocks reliably and can whirlwind off threats. However, it is strictly a worse ting-lu. Recovery is nice but outside of bulkier sand teams there is no reason to use it. Its probably a lower D tier. Its a niche mon on a niche style.
When talking about H-Arcanine i said "Slow-but-not-that-slow-and-definetly-not-fast breakers", hydreigon definetly fits the bill perfectly as that mon, however, hydreigon is far better than H-Arcanine, it has amazing defensive typing able to resist kingambit, gholdengo, h-samurott and 1v1 Ting-Lu. Good Special attacks to threaten stuff like great tusk, lando-t, and great movepool from flash cannon, earthpower, flamethrower and nasty plot. The best set is definetly Sub nasty plot being able to 6-0 defensive team while not being a sitting duck againts offense like breloom. It has a ton of poor match-up ofcourse like play rough ogerpon, iron valiant, volcarona, iron moth however the benefit it brings far outweighs its flaws. I would rise this thing to C just because of how good it is againts bulkier teams. Theres a reason this mon was top tier in early gen 9 despite the nerf to its movepool from gen 8.
Iron jugulis used to be a really solid fast cleaner that doesnt lose to ting lu and resist sucker punch, however, as the tier slowly moves towards fat and it having poor match up againts a lot of the new offensive mons (raging bolt, gouging fire, kyurem, darkrai, iron valiant) it has definetly fallen off. I would put it in UR but this hurts.
it had 2 good sets, Throat spray sweeper and defensive rocker. both fell of HARD. throat spray has become way too slow and cant break past so many defensive mons and the defensive set just dies to any fairy (clef and primarina has never been better). easy UR
Its a really good counter to primarina but thats it, its far too passive and a lot of the special attackers in the tier can use it as set up fodder or just switch out without being punished. Its niche is still very useful as role compressor but most of time using a combo of 2 mons like clef alo, glowking alo, ting lu dengo to beat special sweepers is just much safer. Useful niche, but is generally outclassed.\
knexhawk explain away (TL;DR knock absorber for stall)
Do not use pincurchin as a terrain setter, you will lose and have a bad time. use it as a suicide lead to support iron valiant break 2-3 mons with life orb, then have 4 HO mons to your liking, yes still use terrain extender + memento or even try eject button but that cuts down on the iron valiant mayhem a bit too short for my liking. Anyways thats my rant on people using this pokemon wrong since the start of the gen and making it worse than it is.... it still sucks, yea rillaboom fell off but its becoming easier and easier to check iron valiant. While this pokemon can turn iron valiant into a broken Uber for 5-8 turns, some teams just deal with it way too easily letting it only get 1 kill at most, so yea bottom of D.
C Tier
yea this pokemon is good. Defensively it has a great typing which lets it hard counter kingambit and samurott, decent bulk and so many good support move from knock off, encore, rapid spin, roost, u-turn and can even be a sweeper with bulk up or swords dance. It can fit on every team style and it can snowball out of control because of the sheer amount of sets it has, and getting it wrong can easily cost you the game. With that said, its stats are still okay and it doesnt have the best match up into HO with a ton of strong threats being spammed and it does take a bit to get going (even the support sets), so i wouldnt put it higher than C+, but i think C is more fitting. Its a good pokemon you should try it.
Its terrible and outclassed. You want a spiker? Garchomp and Samurott. You want a rocker? Lando, Treads and Glimmora. You want a webber? Ribombee and even Araquanid is there. Tspikes? Meowscarada and Greninja. There is 0 reason to use it now that spore is banned, its so frail and slow you can't get more than 1 hazard up. So yea just use a better pokemon.
Stall struggles againts kingambit, samurott and many strong physical attackers, and they often have techs for the metal birds, but talonflame often works as a roadblock because most of these threats can't afford to be burned so just the existence of talonflame makes these threats second guess themselves. Definitely a good mon, bottom of C.
It's a tera hog of a sweeper but in the same time it can be deadly in the right match up againts bulky offense, however it is very difficult to get set up due to its poor bulk and middling speed. It also has bad 4MSS so it sometimes have trouble with coverage even if you have tera blast.
An awesome wall for fat and stall, it can run many sets from the regular knock pivot, subseed, trapper effectively and it is an incredible physical wall againts pokemon like great tusk, kingambit, samurott-h and pairs beautifully with wish alomomola to create an almost unbreakable physical defense combo. It is surprisingly easy to slap on teams as it is a dark type that can wallkingambit, samurott, gholdengo while being able to threaten primarina on the switch and spam knock-off. This pokemon is genuinely underrated, stall and balance alike love having this mon, and the varietyof set puts it as a strong contender for C+ tier.
just dont.
D tierArcanine-Hisui
Very alright wall breaker, i thought the rise of balance would bring life to this mon but it frankly just doesntdo enough damage. Choice band struggles againts hazards and still folds to a lot of common defensive mons like gliscor, garg and alo while being extremely easy to play around, even dragapult gives it hell. boots set with morning sun is really neat but doesn't do enough damage to warrant a slot over the other Slow-but-not-that-slow-and-definetly-not-fast breakers in the tier. However it is not so bad that i wouldnt see it being used ever, its still very strong but the flaws are really hard to overlook. I would put it in the bottom half of D.
D TierBasculegion
Barraskewda is WAY TOO GOOD to pass up as a rain sweeper, but i can't hate on basculegion that much, the ghost typing for rain is godly since dragonite can effectively 6-0 any rain (theres a reason tera ghost skewda exist) and basculegion is bulky enough and strong enough to 1v1 it. I would say its wave crashes are much more powerful but it needing to be jolly to not lose to iron valiant is a hard sell. I guess you can run it alongside skewda but why run 2 of essentially the same mons when rain has so much more diverse threats that can pair up with one another to hit everyside of the opponents team. Basculegion works as a replacement for skewda that is bulkier and beats dragonite, but its less reliable and also MUCH slower, not a bad mon so prob towards the top of D.
D TierBreloom
See, this mon doesnt look bad on paper. Its super strong, has goated coverage, and beats kingambit but man that speed SUCKS. yea it can destroy gambit, ting-lu, dozo, clod and garg but you fight an offensive pokemon, even something as "meh" as keldeo or scizor, youre in a world of hurt. This pokemon also has a 4MSS where it wants to fit rock tomb, bulldoze, close combat and swords dance alongside bullet seed and mach punch. It has the potential to destroy balance but put it againts any offensive pokemon it just loses. D is the place for it, and its probably somewhere in the middle.
D TierGoodra-Hisui
AV is pretty nice, but it struggles againts bulkier teams. it can 1v1 any offense but put it up againts anything bulky or can set up a hazard, it just loses. It has the opposite problem as breloom where if you put it 1v1 vs againts any offensive mon, you win, but if you put it up againts anything defensive like ting-lu or garg, you just lose. However, Goodra has far better utility so its probably the best mon in D tier.
D TierHippowdon
Hippowdon is a really nice bulky sand setter which can help againts the many physical attacker on the tier. It sets up rocks reliably and can whirlwind off threats. However, it is strictly a worse ting-lu. Recovery is nice but outside of bulkier sand teams there is no reason to use it. Its probably a lower D tier. Its a niche mon on a niche style.
C tierHydreigon
When talking about H-Arcanine i said "Slow-but-not-that-slow-and-definetly-not-fast breakers", hydreigon definetly fits the bill perfectly as that mon, however, hydreigon is far better than H-Arcanine, it has amazing defensive typing able to resist kingambit, gholdengo, h-samurott and 1v1 Ting-Lu. Good Special attacks to threaten stuff like great tusk, lando-t, and great movepool from flash cannon, earthpower, flamethrower and nasty plot. The best set is definetly Sub nasty plot being able to 6-0 defensive team while not being a sitting duck againts offense like breloom. It has a ton of poor match-up ofcourse like play rough ogerpon, iron valiant, volcarona, iron moth however the benefit it brings far outweighs its flaws. I would rise this thing to C just because of how good it is againts bulkier teams. Theres a reason this mon was top tier in early gen 9 despite the nerf to its movepool from gen 8.
D tier in my heart, but its URIron Jugulis
Iron jugulis used to be a really solid fast cleaner that doesnt lose to ting lu and resist sucker punch, however, as the tier slowly moves towards fat and it having poor match up againts a lot of the new offensive mons (raging bolt, gouging fire, kyurem, darkrai, iron valiant) it has definetly fallen off. I would put it in UR but this hurts.
URKommo-o
it had 2 good sets, Throat spray sweeper and defensive rocker. both fell of HARD. throat spray has become way too slow and cant break past so many defensive mons and the defensive set just dies to any fairy (clef and primarina has never been better). easy UR
DMilotic
Its a really good counter to primarina but thats it, its far too passive and a lot of the special attackers in the tier can use it as set up fodder or just switch out without being punished. Its niche is still very useful as role compressor but most of time using a combo of 2 mons like clef alo, glowking alo, ting lu dengo to beat special sweepers is just much safer. Useful niche, but is generally outclassed.\
D TierMuk
knexhawk explain away (TL;DR knock absorber for stall)
D TierPincurchin
Do not use pincurchin as a terrain setter, you will lose and have a bad time. use it as a suicide lead to support iron valiant break 2-3 mons with life orb, then have 4 HO mons to your liking, yes still use terrain extender + memento or even try eject button but that cuts down on the iron valiant mayhem a bit too short for my liking. Anyways thats my rant on people using this pokemon wrong since the start of the gen and making it worse than it is.... it still sucks, yea rillaboom fell off but its becoming easier and easier to check iron valiant. While this pokemon can turn iron valiant into a broken Uber for 5-8 turns, some teams just deal with it way too easily letting it only get 1 kill at most, so yea bottom of D.
Quaquaval
C Tier
yea this pokemon is good. Defensively it has a great typing which lets it hard counter kingambit and samurott, decent bulk and so many good support move from knock off, encore, rapid spin, roost, u-turn and can even be a sweeper with bulk up or swords dance. It can fit on every team style and it can snowball out of control because of the sheer amount of sets it has, and getting it wrong can easily cost you the game. With that said, its stats are still okay and it doesnt have the best match up into HO with a ton of strong threats being spammed and it does take a bit to get going (even the support sets), so i wouldnt put it higher than C+, but i think C is more fitting. Its a good pokemon you should try it.
URSmeargle
Its terrible and outclassed. You want a spiker? Garchomp and Samurott. You want a rocker? Lando, Treads and Glimmora. You want a webber? Ribombee and even Araquanid is there. Tspikes? Meowscarada and Greninja. There is 0 reason to use it now that spore is banned, its so frail and slow you can't get more than 1 hazard up. So yea just use a better pokemon.
C TierTalonflame
Stall struggles againts kingambit, samurott and many strong physical attackers, and they often have techs for the metal birds, but talonflame often works as a roadblock because most of these threats can't afford to be burned so just the existence of talonflame makes these threats second guess themselves. Definitely a good mon, bottom of C.
D TierThundurus-Therian
It's a tera hog of a sweeper but in the same time it can be deadly in the right match up againts bulky offense, however it is very difficult to get set up due to its poor bulk and middling speed. It also has bad 4MSS so it sometimes have trouble with coverage even if you have tera blast.
C+ TierWo-Chien
An awesome wall for fat and stall, it can run many sets from the regular knock pivot, subseed, trapper effectively and it is an incredible physical wall againts pokemon like great tusk, kingambit, samurott-h and pairs beautifully with wish alomomola to create an almost unbreakable physical defense combo. It is surprisingly easy to slap on teams as it is a dark type that can wallkingambit, samurott, gholdengo while being able to threaten primarina on the switch and spam knock-off. This pokemon is genuinely underrated, stall and balance alike love having this mon, and the varietyof set puts it as a strong contender for C+ tier.
URZarude
just dont.
i got tagged for stall so here i am for stall
muk my goat with sticky hold can sit on all the knock off fairy types that threaten boots removal on stall, which is especially good because these fuckers either sit around forever (clef) or threaten other knock absorbers (iron valiant). Blocking trick from gholdengo or clef is really useful which all other sticky hold users cannot do (apple is NOT coming into a make it rain). it also can check meow, weav, samurott h, and most non-tusk/moon knock off users, along with general defensive utility against mons like mixed pult and enamorus. Knock off and a 105 base attack stab poison jab also force progress on everything not named gliscor, and with rest talk, its always threatening greedy regenerators who want to switch in with status or item removal. im glad kum got a place. he deserves it.
talonflame is also quite good. With the uptick of tera fire boots samurott hisui, i think its frankly got even better. While unable to threaten burn on it, its far less scared of scarf razor shell fucking it, it can just lead into samurott, then switch out and watch as your opponent burns turn 1 Tera on their hazard machine instead of an actual threat. It always can find entry through the game, esp with flip turn mola, but even raw switching in great tusk, wisp darts dragapult, kingambit, landorus, etc. its also the biggest "Fuck you" to players who only try to force progress on stall with uturn spam. I dont find it in the removing on gholdengo matchup too commonly anymore, but even outside of still being able to do this with solid prediction, its quite good in current meta.
wo chizzy pairs incredibly well with talonflame. Everything wants to spam uturn or close combat at wo chien. talonflame punishes those moves heavily. Wo chien has some insane defensive merit and is good at forcing progress vs fat teams, and can usually trade 1 for 1 with different scary offensive threats, ogerpon, bu great tusk, any tera kingambit (even fallen 5), ursaluna, etc. I popularized the mean look set to trap and remove Glisor and other fat walls but maintain its ability as the only real "counter" to SD ogerpon wellspring. Its solid. Hates losing its item, struggles with long term recovery, but can usually trade evenly or up and is incredibly good at making the opponent play predictably with uturn
muk my goat with sticky hold can sit on all the knock off fairy types that threaten boots removal on stall, which is especially good because these fuckers either sit around forever (clef) or threaten other knock absorbers (iron valiant). Blocking trick from gholdengo or clef is really useful which all other sticky hold users cannot do (apple is NOT coming into a make it rain). it also can check meow, weav, samurott h, and most non-tusk/moon knock off users, along with general defensive utility against mons like mixed pult and enamorus. Knock off and a 105 base attack stab poison jab also force progress on everything not named gliscor, and with rest talk, its always threatening greedy regenerators who want to switch in with status or item removal. im glad kum got a place. he deserves it.
talonflame is also quite good. With the uptick of tera fire boots samurott hisui, i think its frankly got even better. While unable to threaten burn on it, its far less scared of scarf razor shell fucking it, it can just lead into samurott, then switch out and watch as your opponent burns turn 1 Tera on their hazard machine instead of an actual threat. It always can find entry through the game, esp with flip turn mola, but even raw switching in great tusk, wisp darts dragapult, kingambit, landorus, etc. its also the biggest "Fuck you" to players who only try to force progress on stall with uturn spam. I dont find it in the removing on gholdengo matchup too commonly anymore, but even outside of still being able to do this with solid prediction, its quite good in current meta.
wo chizzy pairs incredibly well with talonflame. Everything wants to spam uturn or close combat at wo chien. talonflame punishes those moves heavily. Wo chien has some insane defensive merit and is good at forcing progress vs fat teams, and can usually trade 1 for 1 with different scary offensive threats, ogerpon, bu great tusk, any tera kingambit (even fallen 5), ursaluna, etc. I popularized the mean look set to trap and remove Glisor and other fat walls but maintain its ability as the only real "counter" to SD ogerpon wellspring. Its solid. Hates losing its item, struggles with long term recovery, but can usually trade evenly or up and is incredibly good at making the opponent play predictably with uturn