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Stealth Rock Less Ladder
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
Kyurem-Bs and Volcaronas are everywhere now.
yeah i totally forgot to mention Kyurem-B in my earlier post. I am pretty sure SR would cause him to be Uber. I am perfectly fine with that because of his insane base stats and the fact that he is being discussed as a suspect even with stealth rock. This likely wont happen until gen 6 which will be a totally new meta especially with the new fairy type. That being said, Kyurem B has such insane base stats and with the possibility of getting new moves, he could still be a suspect. In my opinion the bottom line is that SR detracts from the variety of the game because of the pokemon it makes nearly unusable. Even if there are a few possible casualties like Kyurem B or dragonite, to me, the pokemon that will become usable far outweigh their loss. I think it is worth seriously considering
"Average Bulk" doesn't make it any worse than Thundurus-T, who carries significantly lower defenses and no reliable recovery. Additionally, it carries similar bulk to Rotom-W (factoring in higher HP) and reliable recovery, making it arguably play bulkier. Zapdos's defining feature that sets it apart from these two is roar + the ability to check Rain Teams. It's only real counterpart in this regard is Rain Tank Dragonite, but that needs rain to *function*, and can't simply be used as a rain check. Zapdos is a bit niche, sure, but it can make a great supporter and rain check (especially with that hurricane resist) and it has the ability to phaze opposing teams through spikes if your team has them.
Now, if it got STAB Hurricane as well... :D
MuttJustMutt
Banned deucer.
The lack of SR is a huge blow to both hyper offense and stall, both of which rely on the extra damage boost especially. I can't see balanced teams missing it as much though; if anything, it just gives their walls some leeway to carry an extra move of their choice.
Spinners will be gone, and I suspect Jellicent usage will accordingly go through the shitter.
Spinners will be gone, and I suspect Jellicent usage will accordingly go through the shitter.
Play a few games on the ladder and you will change your mind.
Spinners are still very useful due to the now relatively common (t-)spikes, Jelly is still the go-to spinblocker on more defensive/balanced teams and a great pokemon all-around. Stall got even better, because it's much harder now to break through it without the residual damage.
MuttJustMutt
Banned deucer.
Sorry, I haven't played the ladder at all, and my brain somehow assumed that "No Stealth Rock" meant "No Entry Hazards". Being there ARE spikes and toxic spikes, everything you said makes sense, although I would still argue that stall (or at least the stall teams I use) would miss SR. Being able to still use spikes probably compensates though.
Rocks also hurt stall specially sun and hail stall
Honestly this metagame is pretty bad.
Sun spam, volc spam, focus sash spam, kyu-b spam, etc.
Stealth rocks solve more problems than they cause, it's better to have a bunch of pokes be unviable/niche with support than have a bunch of pokes be overpowered. You could probably create a balanced meta without rocks, but it's not really any more valid than the one with rocks, especially with focus sash on flying/levitating pokes being extremely silly to deal with.
Sun spam, volc spam, focus sash spam, kyu-b spam, etc.
Stealth rocks solve more problems than they cause, it's better to have a bunch of pokes be unviable/niche with support than have a bunch of pokes be overpowered. You could probably create a balanced meta without rocks, but it's not really any more valid than the one with rocks, especially with focus sash on flying/levitating pokes being extremely silly to deal with.
I can confirm this team is very, very good. Ladder rankings aside, it's pretty freaking impossible to beat if you don't have an insanely good team matchup. Everything is so cohesive.
Obviously a few things are going to be powerful without SR, so we simply ban those things if they become overpowering. And it's not like some pokemon in Ubers can't be looked at to come down. I can see Deoxy-D coming down because of the SR ban. Even Excadrill and Thundurus-T can be looked at, as they aren't getting the KOs and 2HKO's they normally would get without dedicating yourself to Spikes, and Spikes can't stop flyers and levitators from coming in.
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If this does ever happen, focus sash might just need to be banned as well, it wouldn't be the first item.
Would be the first item completely independant on luck, well besides soul dew.. Which is way different due to being linked to only 2 pokemon
honestly moltres just completely outshines articuno imho
not only is it considerably more powerful, but its typing is really excellent when it doesn't have to worry about stealth rock. its pretty much the most vicious special attacker (nothing apart from tyranitar really wants to switch into it, and even that can be dealt with by hp fighting, or get u-turned on) as moltress typing is also GREAT defensively. its an offensive pokemon that straight up counters other juggernauts such as scizor, volcarona, heatran and breloom. i know that heatran resists its stab, but it has no recovery unlike moltres, and is just pounded down by a few hurricanes. this is the big deal for me: a pokemon that can dish hits out like nothing else and att he same time counter some big threats
articuno is neutral to fighting, weak to fire, weak to steel and walled by steel and only really useful in hail... id honestly pick moltres every time
not only is it considerably more powerful, but its typing is really excellent when it doesn't have to worry about stealth rock. its pretty much the most vicious special attacker (nothing apart from tyranitar really wants to switch into it, and even that can be dealt with by hp fighting, or get u-turned on) as moltress typing is also GREAT defensively. its an offensive pokemon that straight up counters other juggernauts such as scizor, volcarona, heatran and breloom. i know that heatran resists its stab, but it has no recovery unlike moltres, and is just pounded down by a few hurricanes. this is the big deal for me: a pokemon that can dish hits out like nothing else and att he same time counter some big threats
articuno is neutral to fighting, weak to fire, weak to steel and walled by steel and only really useful in hail... id honestly pick moltres every time
Focus sash isn't really that much of a problem like some people make it seem to be. Spikes and weather are still existend in this meta (hail even got a huge boost) and flying/levitating pokes have much better options than a sash, in fact the only relatively viable one i can see is Gengar with some weird Counter/D-Bond-sets, but that's pretty much it.
I'm really not getting the focus sash complaints. It's viable now, but the user still takes on a large risk by using it. Most things that you might consider running a sash on are either not immune to spikes or take hail/sandstorm damage. The level of counterplay that exists for focus sash is way too great for it to warrant a ban. I feel like a lot of the complaints I've seen stem from people running super offensive teams that don't use hazards or sand/hail. This is not a metagame where you're going to be able to spam brainless offensive teams without preparing for the increased viability of stall/focus sash and stomp the ladder. If you opt to run teams like that, you are going to regularly struggle with random focus sash users as well as most defensive teams that have any sort of offensive glue. It seems like people are forgetting that defensive teams exist and are actually very viable in this meta. In my opinion, the only new things that have become banworthy without SR are Dragonite and Moltres. I'm somewhat on the fence about Dragonite, tbh, but Moltres is definitely too powerful.
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True but if its broken then it has to go, i don't think its a huge deal
Lol I remember saying how uncontrollable Moltres would be w/o SR bc I had experience playing with it in OU. Mostly people laughed at the idea.
Jokes on them :p
Jokes on them :p
Moltres too powerful? I used him as a choice specs sweeper and I found him to be strictly inferior to specs Tornadus. I guess he could pull off a life orb + agility set (something Tornadus can't do), but I don't think you can ohko Tyranitar and Heatran, who both drop to a focus blast or superpower from Tornadus. I guess it's the tradeoff you make for being able to take out Jirachi.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Why do people like to compare things that make near 0 sense to compare, articuno and moltres work completely differently, that's like saying latias is outclassed because kyuB exists, seriously.
EDIT: apparently people don't actually know that subroost moltres is meant ot be used offensivly as opposed to defensivly,
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so give me a situation where articuno can perform more efficiently than moltres :)
moltres does everything articuno is going to do apart from bulky roles centered around heal bell or roar shuffling (not good at all and in that case outshone by dragonite)
yes articuno can perform better than moltres on hail teams, but it's just stacking weaknesses, and even then i'd far prefer kyurems extra speed, resistances and power. i've always been of the opinion that hail teams are better described as "teams with abomasnow on them to strip opposing weather and to use abomas good water/dragon killing skills". if anything i'd probably even want to use moltres on a hail team due to the offensive threats it can counter
edit @ above: i am a community, tiering, and c&c contributor. i am well aware of how subroost moltres is played, and it does a far better job of it than articuno
moltres does everything articuno is going to do apart from bulky roles centered around heal bell or roar shuffling (not good at all and in that case outshone by dragonite)
yes articuno can perform better than moltres on hail teams, but it's just stacking weaknesses, and even then i'd far prefer kyurems extra speed, resistances and power. i've always been of the opinion that hail teams are better described as "teams with abomasnow on them to strip opposing weather and to use abomas good water/dragon killing skills". if anything i'd probably even want to use moltres on a hail team due to the offensive threats it can counter
edit @ above: i am a community, tiering, and c&c contributor. i am well aware of how subroost moltres is played, and it does a far better job of it than articuno
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I'm honestly not sure Articuno is even that great in hail. I'm not much of a hail user myself, but I can't see myself picking Articuno over Kyurem if I'm looking for a pressure staller. It's immunity to ground is mostly mitigated by the fact that most earthquake users carry stone edge as well. Not having the nice water and electric resists that Kyurem has hurts it quite a bit too.