Stealth Rock Less Ladder

[Monte Cristo]

Lets completely ignore that moltres has less bulk, a worse defensive typing (who gives a fuck about being weak to fire when your at least not weak to keldeo and starmie hydro spam, so honestly being a bit volcarona weak is a fair tradeoff for not being *as* keldeo weak), no STAB Ice moves which are arguably more important in a dnite centralized meta, and is weak to rain

Kyurem is not used as much as it should be, but articuno and kyurem work together regardless, articuno is better for teams that need a bit better of a dragonite check, since it's not weak to outrage and can't phaze subnite before it gets phazed itself or just gets outraged upon, while cuno can roar it through it's sub, it's also not vulnerable to ANY form of entrey hazards with SR being gone, especially when spikes and tspikes are so damned important in this meta

EDIT:
Moltres VS Articuno, because you people apparently like to argue
the fair way to go with this is qual spreads, so we're rolling with 248 HP/80 Def/176 Sdef/4 Speed Calm since that allows both molt. and cuno to live some really "important" hits
- Venusaur
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Articuno: 28.45 - 33.94%
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Articuno in sun: 42.81 - 50.91%
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Moltres: 35.5 - 42.03%

counting leftovers, both of them live the two, but incase venu wants to gowth, cuno can actually Phaze it(both of them fail to kill w/o hazards with 0 investment STAB moves, not counting fire blast and blizzard because PP is important on a "stally" mon)

- Latias

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Articuno: 45.16 - 53.26%
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Moltres: 59.26 - 70.23%

Counting the drop, articuno will live a second draco 100% of the time and roost up, while moltres has to rely on the absolute minimum, I have to use 252 since some people actually cut speed on latias (wut?) to get the community agreed minimum HP investment for latias, which is 72

Also cuno can phaze out sub CM latias, while moltres can't

- Rotom-W

252 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Moltres: 75.71 - 89.81%
252 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Articuno: 45.43 - 53.78%

Counting leftovers, cuno has a pretty good chance to live 2, with moltres's water weakness, not so much, this is pointless anyway since both can't touch it outside of cuno Phazing it

- Scarf Keldeo (outside of rain because keldettar is noteworthy enough so neutral weather is just the safest option to pick)

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Articuno: 33.15 - 39.42%
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Moltres: 87.72 - 103.39%

HOLY CRAP LOOK AT THAT DAMAGE VARIATION, articuno if using hurricane as the STAB of choice can wreck it and laugh at it's weak ass moves, while sure moltres could also wreck the mini MLP mon with hurricane, it dies most of the time, not only that but hey, ebelt keldeo ensures the OHKO on moltres.


THose are some calcs for you guys, and especially because this quote was getting on my fuckin nerves:

so give me a situation where articuno can perform more efficiently than moltres

 

[Lady Alex]

Moltres's typing is extremely useful in this meta, and if you're running Articuno in hail, you won't be running hurricane, so you're going to lose to both Keldeo and Starmie regardless. If you ARE running it in rain, it will still be 2hko'd by a rain boosted hydro pump from either of them. Articuno is an extremely poor dragonite check. if you're running 252/0 neutral nature Articuno, you're taking 85-102%from a +1 outrage. Articuno can in no way safely switch in on dragonite. I wouldn't even call it a check. If dragonite is brought in on the revenge, for example, it can still DD on Articuno and ko it the next turn if it's taken any prior damage. Do you really want to run an Articuno alongside a Kyurem in the hail? That gives you 3 rock weaknesses in a meta where Scarf Terrakion is currently shining. Articuno doesn't add any resistances or utility that Kyurem doesn't already bring.

EDIT: Your calcs say a whole lot of nothing. Venusaur is going to be outright KO'd by Moltres, and doesn't have to rely on phasing it only for it to come in again. Congrats, Articuno can phase Latias. Moltres is never going to be staying in on Rotom-w,so it makes zero difference how much better Articuno takes a hit from it. You mention how your keldeo calc is done outside of rain, yet you go on to say how Articuno with Hurricane will wreck it. You're extremely unconvincing and making yourself look bad.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

I haven't tried Articuno, but I have to comment that Moltres is amazing. Great dual STABs that are only resisted by a few things and both hit hard, it also has access to U-Turn and Roost. It has great synergy with Dugtrio, it can U-turn out of Heatran or Tyranitar and trap them. Biggest problem is that it's slow, but if it had just 10-15 more Speed, I'd consider it broken for sure.

 

[Cherub Agent]

take a chill pill man, my part of the post you quoted was directed at this:

Why do people like to compare things that make near 0 sense to compare, articuno and moltres work completely differently, that's like saying latias is outclassed because kyuB exists, seriously.

and you then proceeded to show me a situation. that's all i wanted

however, why are you using moltres in such a defensive manner and not abusing its power? moltres is supposed attack and kill, not to specifically take on threats, and those that it does take on are completely different from the ones you posted (threats whose stab is resisted by moltress typing), especially not ones like rotom-w and keldeo ?_?

 

[Monte Cristo]

take a chill pill man, my part of the post you quoted was directed at this:



and you then proceeded to show me a situation. that's all i wanted
however, why are you using moltres in such a defensive manner and not abusing its power? moltres is supposed attack and kill, not to specifically take on threats, and those that it does take on are completely different from the ones you posted (threats whose stab is resisted by moltress typing), especially not ones like rotom-w and keldeo ?_?

I'm showing how articuno deals with a lot of metagame threats better than moltres, also

"why are you using moltres in such a defensive manner and not abusing its power? moltres is supposed attack and kill,"

I'm really not, I'm showing how terrible a moltres has to get before it has to be compared to articuno, seriously people, stop comparing offensive subroost and defensive subroost, it doesn't make too much sense

I wasn't really mad as much as annoyed that people are ignorant as to how bad defensive moltres is, offensive moltres is awesome, I'll give you that, but defensive isn't so hot with all these metagame threats, most of the calcs were a direct stab at people saying how moltres is always better, which isn't even true because moltres and articuno deal with metagame threats completely differently

EDIT:

EDIT: Your calcs say a whole lot of nothing. Venusaur is going to be outright KO'd by Moltres, and doesn't have to rely on phasing it only for it to come in again. Congrats, Articuno can phase Latias. Moltres is never going to be staying in on Rotom-w,so it makes zero difference how much better Articuno takes a hit from it. You mention how your keldeo calc is done outside of rain, yet you go on to say how Articuno with Hurricane will wreck it. You're extremely unconvincing and making yourself look bad.

Hurricane can be used on weatherless and hail, articuno has the defenses to risk it
also hooray, moltres can take 2 sludge bombs in sun, lets see it switch in 2 times since sludge bomb will wear you down to around 70% on the second switch in letting you be KOd right then and there

Moltres will never stay in on rotom W, cool, so lets apply that arguement to everything in OU, so dragonite will never stay in on terrakion or scarf dragons, so it can't really be revenge killed by much of anything, k dragonites broken.

these are really lazy arguments in a hope to actually compare moltres and cuno, please think these out more

 

[Lady Alex]

Hurricane can be used on weatherless and hail, articuno has the defenses to risk it
also hooray, moltres can take 2 sludge bombs in sun, lets see it switch in 2 times since sludge bomb will wear you down to around 70% on the second switch in letting you be KOd right then and there

Moltres will never stay in on rotom W, cool, so lets apply that arguement to everything in OU, so dragonite will never stay in on terrakion or scarf dragons, so it can't really be revenge killed by much of anything, k dragonites broken.

these are really lazy arguments in a hope to actually compare moltres and cuno, please think these out more

Articuno checks Venusaur no better than Moltres given the EV spreads you mentioned at the beginning (I don't know why you would ever run a moltres spread like that, but whatever). they're both 2hko'd by a +2 sludge bomb.

You're being absurd. The point is that running a calc to see how well Articuno takes on Rotom-w (it doesn't) compared to Moltres has no purpose. Moltres isn't even trying to deal with it, and, honestly, Articuno can't do anything at all to it.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Lets completely ignore that moltres has a worse defensive typing

Are you actually serious? Please tell me you're joking. Moltres' typing is incredible defensively speaking in this SR less metagame. It counters Breloom, Scizor, Jirachi, Volcarona and other amazingly threatening Pokemon. Articuno's typing is terrible defensively, as its weak to the ever common Steel, Fire, and Electric type attacks. Now before you say Moltres has a ton of weakesses too, its resistances far make up for it. What does Flying / Ice resist again? Ice and Grass?

tl;dr don't talk shit.

 

[BLARG weather BLARG]

Moltres is a serial killer in this metagame. It's so fun to use and the boost to Fire Blast's Base power in sun is reason enough to not bother sending in Politoed. I feel so bad for Sun teams trying to win the weather war against Rain Moltres teams. Maybe they should consider HP Rock Scarf Gothitelle or something lol.

 

[Lyconik]

Specially defensive rotom-w can counter moltres pretty well (4KHO by Hurricane LO Modest)

But I don't really see it on this meta because volturn team are not really good without stealth rock.

 

[BLARG weather BLARG]

hmm rotom-w is actually a bitch to wear down without SR up anyway. LO moltres could easily 3hko it with rocks so it could only switch in once in regular OU, but Rotom-W is definitely very solid even now. Maybe not so much on a sun team however.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Are you actually serious? Please tell me you're joking. Moltres' typing is incredible defensively speaking in this SR less metagame. It counters Breloom, Scizor, Jirachi, Volcarona and other amazingly threatening Pokemon. Articuno's typing is terrible defensively, as its weak to the ever common Steel, Fire, and Electric type attacks. Now before you say Moltres has a ton of weakesses too, its resistances far make up for it. What does Flying / Ice resist again? Ice and Grass?

tl;dr don't talk shit.

outside of scizor's BP, which is really unreliable in this fire infested meta, steel is so rare that counting it as an "offensive typing worth noting" is a joke really
the only jirachi set that is note worthy to wall is subCM, which has thunder and water pulse to get it anyway
and breloom doesn't even do too well in no SR due to the fire and dragonite infested meta
and by "others" you mean... yeah exactly, basically volcarona is really the only noteworthy one
Ice is useful for switching into Kyurem-N which as gotten popular here, and grass is definitely useful against the mad chloro sweeper infestation

 

[ShootingStarmie]

outside of scizor's BP, which is really unreliable in this fire infested meta, steel is so rare that counting it as an "offensive typing worth noting" is a joke really
the only jirachi set that is note worthy to wall is subCM, which has thunder and water pulse to get it anyway
and breloom doesn't even do too well in no SR due to the fire and dragonite infested meta
and by "others" you mean... yeah exactly, basically volcarona is really the only noteworthy one
Ice is useful for switching into Kyurem-N which as gotten popular here, and grass is definitely useful against the mad chloro sweeper infestation

Even if what you said is true (which it isnt, Scizor, Jirachi, Breloom, and Volcarona all see great usage), this still doesnt prove that Moltres has a worse defensive typing. Instead of proven how Articunos typing is better defnesively, you instead tried to convince me that Scizor and Breloom arent common...yeah.

So please remind me, how is Articunos typing better than Moltres defensively?

 

[Schpoonman]

grass is definitely useful against the mad chloro sweeper infestation

Moltres resists Grass doubly.

Ice is useful for switching into Kyurem-N which as gotten popular here

Articuno is neutral to Ice. So is Moltres who can actually hurt Kyurem.

Articuno is a cool gimmick on hail teams (which still aren't popular, rain teams with Dragonite are infinitely more common), whereas Moltres is now an offensive juggernaut on rain and sun. Articuno is moderately more specially bulky than Kyurem-N while Kyurem is significantly more physically bulky. Can we please move on? We could be discussing something actually relevant to the metagame instead of wasting our time on this garbage.

 

[Yuttt]

Ok, so I decided to look at the typings of both Articuno and Moltres, and the differences are very noticeable. The ONLY thing Articuno has over Moltres are no weakness to water, slightly better bulk, and immunity to hail. Literally, Moltres is universally better in all aspects besides those. Both have Ground immunity, and weakness to Rock (quad). Moltres quad resists Bug and Grass, and Articuno only resists those normally. Articuno is weak to Steel and Fire, and Moltres resists those two. Finally, Moltres resists Fighting, which Articuno is neutral to. Rain stall got a nice boon in Moltres, making it even better.

 

[PDC]

OiawesomeDG please stop. You literally have been debunked maybe 10 times now, your argument for Articuno being some amazing wall isn't working. I'm not saying its "bad" but Articuno hasn't really been an amazing or very solid SDef wall since the ADV era, where it actually was pretty cool for being immune to Spikes. Moltres does so much more offensively and even defensively. The extra SDef is very nice, but it is literally the only niche it has. Being used on Hail with it's immunity is not at huge as you think, as Moltres honestly covers more threats for hail than Articuno does. I don't see what Articuno "notably" beats that Moltres doesn't. Moltres beats Breloom, Scizor, Jirachi, Heatran in some cases, Mew, and multiple other things. Moltres does better against sun than Articuno does, as it will only fall to Volcorona if it carries HP Rock, and it also beats almost all Chlorophyll sweepers the same as Articuno, maybe take away a little extra damage. Moltres fits on a lot more teams, including Rain, Sun, and Hail. Articuno doesn't have too many niches outside of being able to beat Lati@s a bit better (non-CM versions), and beating bulky water types better. Articuno still doesn't like taking Rain boosted Hydro Pumps, and it really can't do much in return, especially on Hail, which is the weather you have been saying it was so good on.

Kyurem can basically do everything Articuno can do, but beat bulky water types better. I guess the hazard immunity is lost which does make it a little less effective against Spikes + Toxic Spikes teams, but it is stronger, has overall better stats and typing, and is just overall better. It beats Rain much easier and I really can't see myself using Articuno over it.

 

[Pocket]

Alright, end with the Moltres vs Articuno comparisons - you all have said your piece. Let the readers make the final judgment call.

Also take Cherub Agent's advice and take a chill pill, OjawesomeDG. Your aggressiveness is absolutely inappropriate

 

[MikeDawg]

Got almost to top 5 then accidentally timed out

oops

Regardless, moltres is absurd (the subroosting variant)

it is certainly a tippy top tier threat (given that, it should see more ou usage since rapid spin support isnt too too much to ask). It is just so powerful and so hard to deal with behind a sub. ferrothorn, scizor, etc are all easy sub opprotunities

 

[Soul Fly]

The only 2 elements I really find broken in this ladder are Kyu-B and D-Nite (the Lum Set)

 

[Immortal]

The only 2 elements I really find broken in this ladder are Kyu-B and D-Nite (the Lum Set)

If that is the case then we are actually in pretty good shape considering there is no way this could happen until gen 6 anyway where dragon types will getting a pretty big nerf. Dragonite and Kyurem B may be broken without SR now but fairies being immune to dragon moves is huge. theoretically a fairy could come in after you KO something with outrage, boost while they take zero damage from the second outrage the dragon is locked into and then boost again while the dragon almost certainly switches out. Outrage will be a very risky move to use and the power drop from using dragon claw is very noticeable. None of extremespeed, fire punch, earthquake or aqua tail (lum berry dragonite's typical coverage moves) will do super effective damage to fairy types. Obviously a whole new meta will mean a bunch of new pokemon, a new type chart and whole new tests but its hard to imagine a bigger threat with no SR than dragonite coming around just because of multiscale combined with his decent bulk and access to DD. I'm sure there will be plenty of things that end up being broken, as always, but i am happy that game freak at least made the attempt to balance things out this generation. Off the top of my head i am thinking Charizard with drought could be dangerous but it is so frail that it will likely be hard to consider broken, especially since it wont be able to use a choice scarf. 100 base speed is solid but there are plenty of pokemon that will outspeed it naturally and others such as scarf t tar or politoed will be able to use a scarf to do so. Volcanona could be threatening as well but like Charizard it only has 100 base speed, is 4x weak to rock moves and putting a scarf on volcarona would prevent you from using QD. I think they will both likely be good but since neither have multiscale it is hard to imagine them being broken, you just may need a pokemon with hp rock to stop them.

 

[ginganinja]

Can we not discuss shit that isn't released yet. This in a Gen 5 thread, don't bring up Gen 6 stuff tyvm

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

I don't think that anybody has mentioned this guy yet.

Hide

Ninjask @ Leftovers/Mental Herb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

Ninjask is fantastic on this ladder (in my experience), as it can now come in more than once, and gather speed boosts and Swords Dances to BP on to a slow but powerful sweeper. Kyurem-B is without a doubt the best recipient, as it patches up his subpar speed and boosts his power to beyond ridiculous levels. After 1 Swords Dance, with an attack boosting nature and at least a Draco Plate, it's Outrage can OHKO or 2HKO the entire OU metagame without Spikes on the field!

+2 252+ Atk Draco Plate Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: (50.56 - 59.6%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: (67.32 - 78.97%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes

If you can eliminate your opponent's priority, and successfully pass a SD and 3+ speed boosts, then the only thing that can possibly stop your sweep is you smacking yourself in confusion.

 

[Schpoonman]

You don't even need to pass 3+ speed boosts. One will be bad enough.

 

[Arash]

If you're going to be passing speed and +2 attack, why not pass to something that isn't weak to priority or something that has more than one move to use as coverage?

jirachi, for example, can kill everything it needs to with iron head / ice punch / zen headbutt / fire punch

 

[gvmgvm40]

Nope. The difference in power is very significant, especially after a boost.

According to PS's One vs All calc, these mons avoid a 2HKO from a +2 EB Adamant Jirachi with that set:

Hide

+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 20.3 - 24.11%
252+ Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 24.36 - 28.93%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 232 HP / 24 Def Slowbro: 27.76 - 32.64%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowbro: 27.91 - 32.74%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Slowking: 28.93 - 34.26%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran: 29.35 - 34.54%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Victini: 29.28 - 34.73%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Victini: 29.45 - 34.9%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 32.47 - 38.17%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 34.53 - 40.63%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 34.89 - 41.34%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 35.29 - 41.48%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 35.29 - 41.71%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 36.29 - 42.63%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 37.01 - 43.44%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Cresselia: 38.14 - 44.92%
+1 252+ Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 38.42 - 45.29%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 38.86 - 46.03%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 40.55 - 47.98%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Empoleon: 42.58 - 50.4%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 43.81 - 51.48%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Mew: 44.8 - 52.97%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 44.88 - 52.98%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Wobbuffet: 45.68 - 54.12%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 28 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 46.21 - 54.54%
+2 252+ Atk Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 46.23 - 54.59%

The number of Pokemon that avoid a 2HKO from the Physically-based mixed Kyurem-B (Dragon Claw/Fusion Bolt/Ice Beam/HP Fire, Draco Plate, 252 Atk/4 SpA Lonely) after the boost is only 1, and that's Defensive Cobalion:

+2 252+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Cobalion: 47.15 - 55.69%

Everything else is cleanly 2HKOd.

 

[Arcticblast]

If you're Baton Passing to a Jirachi in the first place, why are you using Expert Belt? Life Orb will do everything you could want Expert Belt to do but more. It's not like the residual damage will make a difference if you already have Speed boosts too...