Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[IcyMan28]

Welcome, everyone. I'll keep this introduction short and simple. As the title makes clear, this discussion will focus on Salamence's viability as a suspect. While Manaphy is still being tested, it is clear that the "pokemon-testing" phase of the Smogon Suspect Process is reaching its end, so it would be the perfect time to discuss the dragon. And although a thread has been started in Policy Review, I think that perhaps we as a community could help come to a general consensus regarding it, much like the Suspect Nomination Process found in the UU Metagame. Without further adieu...

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Salamence​

The Pokemon​

We all know a great deal about Salamence, but let's establish a baseline for discussion. Salamence features 95 HP / 135 Atk / 80 Def / 110 SpA / 80 SpD / 100 Spe to start out with, backed by Dragon and Flying types. It is limited to one choice of ability (albeit a good one): Intimidate. It's movepool consists of the following viable selections, with blue moves indicating STAB:

Aerial Ace
Aqua Tail
Brick Break
Crunch
Dragon Claw
Dragon Dance
Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Earthquake
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
HP Ground
Hydro Pump
Outrage
Rock Slide
Roost
Shadow Claw
Stone Edge
Wish


A nice list - we see that it has both offensive and defensive options available to it, including the likes of Roost and Stone Edge. Now we can proceed.

On The Defensive​

Salamence can run several sets that are more defensively oriented, and more bulkily EVd to capitalize on its 95 / 80 / 80 defenses and Intimidate. They often feature Roost or Wish, both forms of reliable recovery, and can be used counter fighting-types. Despite their more defensive focus, Salamence is more than capable of using them to inflict damage or set up using its extra bulk.

Specially Bulky
Salamence@Lum Berry / Life Orb
Adamant; 236 HP / 64 Atk / 116 SpD / 92 Spe

Roost
Earthquake
Dragon Dance
Outrage / Dragon Claw

The EVs with this set, when combined with Roost, allow Salamence to survive Ice Beam from the likes of bulky waters while still taking HP Ice from ScarfTran and Timid Gengar. This allows it to alternate between Roost and Dragon Claw / Outrage, the latter of which will always 2HKO Suicune after Stealth Rock. Magnezone support is clearly required.

Physically Bulky
Salamence@Leftovers / Lum Berry
Jolly; 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe

Roost
Earthquake
Dragon Dance
Dragon Claw / Outrage

The physically defensive focus of this Salamence differentiates it from the above set, especially as it utilizes its Intimidate ability. It can survive SD- and LO-boosted Extremespeed from Lucario, as well as even a critical Stone Edge from ScarfCross, both accomplished with the aforementioned ability. Its 280 speed allows it to outpace Timid ScarfTran, though it can easily be elevated to 308 spe while retaining its bulk. Again, Magnezone support is ideal.

FatMence
Salamence@Leftovers
Timid; 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe

Roost
Wish / Toxic
Flamethrower
Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse

A much more defensive Salamence than the previous version, as the lack of Dragon Dance would imply. It provides a solid answer to various physical threats thanks to Intimidate, and can still hit hard with Draco Meteor and Flamethrower, a combination resisted only be Heatran. Should Wish be utilized, it can even provide Wish support, though less reliably than say, Jirachi, due to its Stealth Rock weakness.

It is clear that Salamence is capable of taking a hit or two, despite that Stealth Rock weakness. But let's move on to its forte - attacking.

On The Offensive​

Salamence boasts offensive stats of 135 / 110 / 100, a spread suited for an offensive build. The following sets capitalize on its sets, oftentimes focusing on both offenses. Life Orb is typically used to maximize its damage output, as well as high-powered attacks and STAB.

Dragon Dance
Salamence@Life Orb
Naughty / Naive; 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe

Outrage
Fire Blast
Earthquake
Dragon Dance

We all know the set. Boost up with DD, use EQ and Fire Blast to remove problematic steels, and then sweep with STAB Outrage. I don't need to explain, really. Usage statistics indicate that this is the most commonly used Salamence set.

Classic MixMence
Salamence@Life Orb
Rash; 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

Fire Blast
Brick Break
Draco Meteor
Roost / Crunch

The classic version of MixMence utilizes Salamence's SpA as the focus, Brick Break being there to beat down pokemon that could typically sponge a Draco Meteor, such as Blissey, Heatran, and Tyranitar. It features more staying power than the previous and following sets with Roost, which removes LO and residual damage.

Modern MixMence
Salamence@Life Orb
Mild; 84 Atk / 216 SpA / 208 Spe

Fire Blast
Earthquake
Draco Meteor
Outrage / Roost

This version of MixMence sacrifices SpA for more speed. It allows it to outpace Gyarados before a DD, picking it off with Draco Meteor. The loss of Brick Break is overcome by the addition of Outrage, which easily 2HKOs the most defensive of Blissey. Draco Meteor followed by two turns of Outrage will fell Cresselia, nemesis to any and all Salamence.

Choice Band
Salamence@Choice Band
Naive / Naughty; 248 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe

Outrage
Aqua Tail
Fire Blast
Earthquake / Stone Edge / Dragon Claw

CBMence focuses on immediate attacking power rather than a setup sweep. Outrage has more than an 80% chance of 2HKOing Max / Max Bold Cresselia, to demonstrate the set's efficiency. 8 SpA allows it to 2HKO 220 / 0 Celebi with Stealth Rock The moves for the last slot each carry their own advantages. EQ for coverage, Stone Edge for opposing Mence and Gyara, and Dragon Claw for STAB without being locked in.

Choice Specs
Salamence@Choice Specs
Modest; 6 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Fire Blast
Hydro Pump
Dragon Pulse
Draco Meteor

The set has become nearly obsolete, as Latias tends to be a better Specs attacker thanks to a method of getting around Blissey - Trick. Regardless, it hits quite hard and must not be underestimated, especially when it has the element of surprise backed by Specs Draco Meteor.

Choice Scarf
Salamence@Choice Scarf
Naughty; 252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe

Outrage
Fire Blast
Earthquake
Hydro Pump

Seemingly a strange fusion of the previous two sets, ScarfMence works best as a late-game sweeper rather than an early- or mid-game wallbreaker. STAB is covered by Outrage, while the other three moves complete the coverage. It dislikes switching in and out repeatedly even more than the previous two sets, as it lacks the raw power to make up for it.

Mixed Dancer
Salamence@Life Orb
Naughty / Naive; 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

Outrage
Draco Meteor
Dragon Dance
Earthquake / Fire Blast.

Using Salamence's unpredictability, this set utilizes Draco Meteor to remove the physically bulky pokemon that would normally deal with DDMence, such as Swampert. Magnezone support is ideal so that Salamence can comfortably run Earthquake in the last slot, the superior choice for coverage.

Typical Teammates​

Perhaps by virtue of being the #1 pokemon, Scizor finds itself alongside Salamence quite frequently. This is logical however - Salamence resists Scizor's only weakness, while Scizor can take Ice and Dragon attacks aimed at Salamence. It's U-Turn allows it to soften pokemon like Bronzong and Swampert, valuable assets to DDMence.

Metagross and Salamence has perfect synergy, absorbing each other's weaknesses perfectly. Metagross often sets up Stealth Rock for Salamence. Its powerful CBExplosion can take down even Skarmory, opening holes for a DDMence sweep. And while Metagross finds itself having problems against the bulky waters and Rotom formes when it uses the AgiliGross set, Mixmence easily disposes or cripples them for Metagross's successful sweep.

Like Salamence, Tyranitar is highly versatile. It can pursue pokemon that can give Salamence issues, such as ScarfLatias, Starmie, and Celebi using its CB set. The use of a stallbreaking set such as Tyraniboah can allow Salamence to sweep through the remains, while Mixmence can cripple the bulky waters and ground so that Tyranitar can sweep. That said, Salamence resists 5 of Tyranitar's 6 weaknesses, and Tyranitar's bulk lets it take Ice Beams aimed at the dragon.

Lucario finds itself alongside Salamence for similar reasons. The power of its SD set is more than capable of ripping through teams that have been weakened by Salamence, and vice versa. The DDset proves highly effective, outpacing and overpowering the ghosts that stop Lucario. The synergize well type-wise, as well, covering all of the other's weaknesses.

Jirachi is the 5th most commonly used pokemon alongside Salamence. Like Metagross and Lucario, it has perfect type synergy with its Hoenn cohort, and can use the switchin opportunities to threaten the opponent with its own versatility, be that through the Scarf set, SubCM, or a physical moveset. Jirachi's natural bulk and access to Wish allow it to become an excellent partner defensively speaking, nursing Salamence back to health with its Wishpassing Tactic.

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Salamence's options are clearly numerous...and many would argue that its versatility is what makes it suspect to begin with, combined with its sheer attacking force. Still others would point to the likes of Infernape, Tyranitar, etc to rebuke this argument.

There are also those who claim that Salamence's strength is too strong for the metagame even when the set is known...

So it is important to keep in mind the following three characteristics, set in place by the excellent minds in the Policy Review:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

If you do choose to argue that Salamence is indeed suspect, please include which characteristic you would like to nominate it under. Opponents to Salamence as a suspect don't need to include a specific characteristic in their post, but should keep their arguments within the bounds set by these guidelines.

Some general topics that I feel would help along the discussion:

-Versatility
-Choice of Moves
-Offensive Strength (Damage Calcs Ideal)
-Defensive Prowess (Damage Calcs Ideal)
-Potential Support (Specific Examples, Of Course)

Some links to relevant threads:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50997&highlight=salamence+suspect: The most recent thread discussing Salamence's status.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64977: The Policy Review's Discussion.

Discuss.

 

[Chou Toshio]

We have gone over Salamence so many times, and the conclusion is always the same-- this thing is no where near Uber. It hits like a truck, but it's not the only pokemon to do so. It's just the only one to do so with fantastic STABs and type combo (Dragon/fire/ground) on both ends of the spectrum. And even then people will always come back to this point: It's just not going to last. SR, LO damage and sand take Salamence out faster than it takes Vegeta to take out bug people. DD versions and Bulky Roost versions can avoid this problem and attempt a longer sweep, but with Scizor freakng EVERYWHERE, this has become even more out of reach. Going to see play, because most likely it will manage to kill something before it goes down.

More importantly-- do you really want to play in a metagame without pokemon like Salamence? That one kill that Salamence has a good chance of pulling off is instrumental in preventing the metagame becoming a circle jerk of stall. Frankly I'd say that's a very good thing considering the meta is already a circle jerk of conservative bulky-offense, despite Salamence being around.

I say, one should always be VERY careful about considering banning sweepers on the offensive characteristic. This is because Sweepers just tend to make a bigger psychological impression, being offensive and sometimes managing to go on massive massacres-- but the reality is that they are often relatively underpowered, and net less consistent performance than other less conspicuous pokemon.

Frankly speaking, it wouldn't surprise me if overall Salamence turned out to be a worse performer in battle than pokemon like Rotom, Swampert or Heatran. Certainly even pokemon like Flygon and Vaporeon can carry out their jobs with greater consistency. People just don't think about them because their roles in battle don't have as big a psychological impact.

Salamence certainly is a contender for the title of most destructive power in OU, but in my book that's not really an indicator of possible Uber status or even necessarily being a great pokemon. Salamence is only really a problem if your team roles over and dies upon losing one of its members *cough*stall-bitches*cough*. Most offensive / tank / bulky offensive teams can pull through with their plans regardless if they come out on the better or worse end of the 1 big conflict Salamence is likely to make in the early/mid game (before getting scizor'd to death).

All I know is that while I Salamence is good, there are definitely other pokemon that give me a lot more pains when it comes to including checks in the team.

And there are pokemon that piss me off to the point of wishing they'd get banned a LOT more than Salamence *cough*Jirachi*cough*Jirachi*cough* . . . *thinks a bit more* . . . *cough*Jirachi*cough*

Oh, also "Best Pokemon in OU" is definitely "Bulky Water". Swampert/Suicune/Vaporeon > Salamence any day, and frankly Salamence has more variety and interest amongst its sets than the difference between Swampert/Suicune/Vaporeon. Add in Starmie (never mind Gyarados), and you'll see "Bulky Water" is WAAAAAY more dominant than Salamence could hope to be. And we're even thinking of letting Manaphy down, lol

 

[MrIndigo]

I could see it going either way. Salamence is one of those guys who really pushes the envelope of what a sweeper can do; it has a set of every possible style (all special, all physical, stat-up, Choiced in various directions, mixed, wall breaker, etc.) and several of them are must-prepare for when teambuilding. Of course, versatility alone is meaningless, but Mence backs it up with amazing stats and typing.

If it was any slower, I think there wouldn't even be a question, but with it's standard foils Scizor, Jirachi and Latias revenging only (i.e., you have to lose something to it) and no real counter or lure to handle it outright, I could see the powers that be branding it too much for OU.

That said, there are a number of pokemon that do revenge it, and it doesn't seem to have caused so much of a problem that Infernape sees no play as a stallbreaker, or that every team has to have one (although I don't doubt that Scizor and Latias' high usage rate is due to the Mence threat in part).

I read somewhere that if Manaphy is locked to Uber, Salamence should be tested in Suspect, but if Manaphy is OU than Mence should stay, and I think that's a reasonable description.

 

[IcyMan28]

We have gone over Salamence so many times, and the conclusion is always the same-- this thing is no where near Uber. It hits like a truck, but it's not the only pokemon to do so. It's just the only one to do so with fantastic STABs and type combo (Dragon/fire/ground) on both ends of the spectrum. And even then people will always come back to this point: It's just not going to last. SR, LO damage and sand take Salamence out faster than it takes Vegeta to take out bug people. DD versions and Bulky Roost versions can avoid this problem and attempt a longer sweep, but with Scizor freakng EVERYWHERE, this has become even more out of reach. Going to see play, because most likely it will manage to kill something before it goes down.

The question is, does Salamence's ability to hit hard from both ends of the spectrum, with that great STAB and access to complimentary moves, make it anymore likely to fit one of the Uber characteristics than these other "heavy hitters." Whether or not Salamence lasts or not is a factor...but does it do enough damage in that time to outweigh its lack of durability?

More importantly-- do you really want to play in a metagame without pokemon like Salamence? That one kill that Salamence has a good chance of pulling off is instrumental in preventing the metagame becoming a circle jerk of stall. Frankly I'd say that's a very good thing considering the meta is already a circle jerk of conservative bulky-offense, despite Salamence being around.

Is it really, though? You've mentioned that there exist various other pokemon that "hit like a truck" in the previous paragraph, and I'd say that between the likes of SDLuke, Infernape, TauntDos, etc, this circle jerk of stall is unlikely to form. As the various suspect tests have proven, it is extremely difficult to pinpoint what effect the removal (or adding in of) a single pokemon would add to the metagame.

I say, one should always be VERY careful about considering banning sweepers on the offensive characteristic. This is because Sweepers just tend to make a bigger psychological impression, being offensive and sometimes managing to go on massive massacres-- but the reality is that they are often relatively underpowered, and net less consistent performance than other less conspicuous pokemon.

A great point to bring up. The offensive characteristic is most difficult to prove, IMO, because practically anything with a setup move and its counters weakened / removed is going to have an easy time sweeping.

Frankly speaking, it wouldn't surprise me if overall Salamence turned out to be a worse performer in battle than pokemon like Rotom, Swampert or Heatran. Certainly even pokemon like Flygon and Vaporeon can carry out their jobs with greater consistency. People just don't think about them because their roles in battle don't have as big a psychological impact.

Salamence certainly is a contender for the title of most destructive power in OU, but in my book that's not really an indicator of possible Uber status or even necessarily being a great pokemon. Salamence is only really a problem if your team roles over and dies upon losing one of its members *cough*stall-bitches*cough*. Most offensive / tank / bulky offensive teams can pull through with their plans regardless if they come out on the better or worse end of the 1 big conflict Salamence is likely to make in the early/mid game (before getting scizor'd to death).

Nor should it be an indicator. "Most destructive" doesn't mean overpowered, I agree with you on that.

All I know is that while I Salamence is good, there are definitely other pokemon that give me a lot more pains when it comes to including checks in the team.

Such as?

And there are pokemon that piss me off to the point of wishing they'd get banned a LOT more than Salamence *cough*Jirachi*cough*Jirachi*cough* . . . *thinks a bit more* . . . *cough*Jirachi*cough*

This is rather irrelevant...

Oh, also "Best Pokemon in OU" is definitely "Bulky Water". Swampert/Suicune/Vaporeon > Salamence any day, and frankly Salamence has more variety and interest amongst its sets than the difference between Swampert/Suicune/Vaporeon. Add in Starmie (never mind Gyarados), and you'll see "Bulky Water" is WAAAAAY more dominant than Salamence could hope to be. And we're even thinking of letting Manaphy down, lol

Just some thoughts. Be aware that I am trying to remain as neutral as possible while considering all arguments.

I could see it going either way. Salamence is one of those guys who really pushes the envelope of what a sweeper can do; it has a set of every possible style (all special, all physical, stat-up, Choiced in various directions, mixed, wall breaker, etc.) and several of them are must-prepare for when teambuilding. Of course, versatility alone is meaningless, but Mence backs it up with amazing stats and typing.

The thing is, every single type of set you listed can be done by Infernape and Lucario as well, off the top of my head. How does Salamence fit the offensive characteristic more than they do?

If it was any slower, I think there wouldn't even be a question, but with it's standard foils Scizor, Jirachi and Latias revenging only (i.e., you have to lose something to it) and no real counter or lure to handle it outright, I could see the powers that be branding it too much for OU.

The counter mentality has been gone for some time now...and this is certainly not the case. Suicune, for example, is a hard counter to even +1 Adamant Mence with Outrage, not to mention the much more common Naive versions as people opt for more speed. Porygon2 deals with DDMence while still retaining some usefulness vs. Gyara, Heatran, and other pokemon. While MixMence can be EVd to 2HKO Cresselia with DM + Outrage, it needs to sacrifice speed to do this, too...

That said, there are a number of pokemon that do revenge it, and it doesn't seem to have caused so much of a problem that Infernape sees no play as a stallbreaker, or that every team has to have one (although I don't doubt that Scizor and Latias' high usage rate is due to the Mence threat in part).

Exactly...the metagame still seems to be functioning without Salamence forcing people to prepare for it so much that they become ridiculously weak to many other threats.

I read somewhere that if Manaphy is locked to Uber, Salamence should be tested in Suspect, but if Manaphy is OU than Mence should stay, and I think that's a reasonable description.

Manaphy will definitely have an effect...but it really doesn't wall Mence any better than Suicune does. We'd have to wait and see I guess.

 

[mite b cool]

Well whenever I go up against Salamence I ussually have to sacrifice something in order to revenge kill it. It has numerous advantages over Latias because it can attack on both sides of the spectrum as you previously stated and is a fantastic wallbreaker. MixMence is incredible- the amount of pokemon that can switch in is very limited, and what some consider to be the 'best' Salamence counter in the game, Porygon2, dosen't have the guts to take a Draco Meteor followed up by an outrage, even at -1. I think a suspect test couldn't hurt, I personaly think Mence is a bigger threat than that of Latias, although a stealth rock weakness limits the amount of times he can switch in.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Icyman--

What sets Salamence apart from other hard hitters is the incredible coverage and power of Dragon type attacks. When you have Draco Meteor/Outrage and Earthquake/Fire Blast along for the ride, you have a much better chance of making your kill than with Gyara's imperfect coverage/"meh" base power or Infernape's Fire/Fighting STAB. Also a resulting lack of a 100% counter is important (Gyara is Celebi's bitch, and Infernape is Latias').

There is no question in my mind that Mix-mence is a better wall breaker in the early game than Infernape, with better coverage and resulting no 100% counters. But fact is that with no SR weak, superior speed and its Steel Resistance, even Infernape has more overall endurance than Salamence (and that's saying something). IE, Infernape is a better wall breaker/sweeper mid-late game.

The result is Salamence is a wall breaker that has a higher chance of taking an enemy out, but also even easier to kill. This is what makes it such a healthy presence as an anti-stall and in the meta overall-- it both ensures a certain pace to the game without having the endurance to truly dominate.

When it comes to naming pokemon one has to check, this is all a matter of preference. The reason I didn't list any is because my list is likely to differ from others, making this an exercise in futility. If you really want me to list pokemon, I would say that Latias, Celebi, Starmie and Bulkly Waters (Swampert, Suicune, Vaporeon) are the biggest pains to deal with (when building heavy offensive teams anyway).

Also hating Jirachi is totally relevant. Banning/Non-Banning is subjective at its core-- and Smogon has acknowledged this process by making it vote-based. Whether people hate facing a pokemon is totally relevant. Their is no doubt in my mind that Garchomp would be OU if not for the fact that people hated Sand Veil so much.


@Salamence's having a variety of sets-- this was only really relevant pre-Platinum, and then even not really at that. Whether you're LO Mixmence, Specs, Band, Scarf, Yache, +1 DD mence, whatever-- you are equally nerfed by Luke/Scizor.

 

[KnightoftheWind]

I think Salamence is OU. I do admit, it is a goddamn beast, its movepool is large and it hits hard as fuck, but it often dies way to quickly, usually losing a third of its health every time it switches in and attacks. That's not really the kind of thing I see to be Uber.

The other argument is that is has no proper counters. True, but this is DPPHGSS, where the word "counter" has not as much meaning as it did back then. Heck, Gengar doesn't really have a proper counter either, are we going to declare it Uber?

So yeah, Salamence isn't Uber. Good, but not Uber.

 

[MrIndigo]

Manaphy will definitely have an effect...but it really doesn't wall Mence any better than Suicune does. We'd have to wait and see I guess.

Infernape doesn't have the typing or defenses to match up to Salamence, although he's very close in terms of Mixed breaking, as I said.

Special luke is not really something you need to prep for, as it doesn't really have the same quality move pool as a sweeper, and it lacks speed (even with a +speed nature, it's primary counter still outspeeds and OHKOs).

So while they are both good, they both have shortcomings that Mence does not.

With Manaphy, I didn't mean in the sense of a wall; I meant that if it is something of a power level appropriate to OU, and Mence is not much more powerful than it. Furthermore, MAnaphy can dish it out against Salamence more effectively than Cune.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Manaphy-- I don't see this as being all that relevant. Whether Manaphy is around or not, "bulky water" will always be a dominant presence in OU in the aforementioned forms of Swampert, Suicune, Vaporeon, Starmie, Empoleon (and lol, Gyara). Whether Manaphy joins them or not, their absolute dominating presence, will ensure "bulky offense" is always the most dominating team, completely shutting down pure offense and boning Stall once Scizor kills Celebi.

 

[IcyMan28]

@Icyman--

What sets Salamence apart from other hard hitters is the incredible coverage and power of Dragon type attacks. When you have Draco Meteor/Outrage and Earthquake/Fire Blast along for the ride, you have a much better chance of making your kill than with Gyara's imperfect coverage/"meh" base power or Infernape's Fire/Fighting STAB.

A great point - the Dragon STAB is an excellent type to have. I'll give you Gyarados, but Infernape is arguably as good. The large majority of special walls / tanks (Tyranitar, Blissey, etc) are unable to weather hits from its STAB Close Combat, which often finds itself hitting super effectively.

There is no question in my mind that Mix-mence is a better wall breaker in the early game than Infernape, wither better coverage and resulting no 100% counters. But fact is that with no SR weak, superior speed and its Steel Resistance, even Infernape has more overall endurance than Salamence (and that's saying something). IE, Infernape is a better wall breaker/sweeper mid-late game.

The result is Salamence is a wall breaker that has a higher chance of taking an enemy out, but also even easier to kill. This is what makes it such a healthy presence as an anti-stall and in the meta overall-- it both ensures a certain pace to the game without having the endurance to truly dominate.

An interesting point - the risk / reward ratio is greater than Salamence than Infernape. But then, if Salamence is the better wallbreaker, it generally offers more reward than Infernape. I feel that this is especially true of stall teams, who often can't hit Salamence as hard as Infernape due to its immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Over time, Mence is doing more damage.

When it comes to naming pokemon one has to check, this is all a matter of preference. If you really want me to list pokemon, I would say that Latias, Celebi, Starmie and Bulkly Waters (Swampert, Suicune, Vaporeon) are the biggest pains to deal with (when building heavy offensive teams anyway).

I disagree - usage generally dictates what is on your priority need of checking. If it gets to the point where checking one pokemon is almost necessary for success (as would seem to be the case with so many trainers relying on Scizor's BP, ScarfLatias, Jirachi, etc), you are left severely weak to other threats.

Also hating Jirachi is totally relevant. Banning/Non-Banning is subjective at its core-- and Smogon has acknowledged this process by making it vote-based. Whether people hate facing a pokemon is totally relevant. Their is no doubt in my mind that Garchomp would be OU if not for the fact that people hated Sand Veil so much.

This is true - poor word choice on my part. However, the use of a voting requirement, paragraphs, and SEXP helps to limit this. The suspect characteristics also provide a framework to more objectively view the suspect, although clearly not 100% objectively.

@Salamence's having a variety of sets-- this was only really relevant pre-Platinum, and then even not really at that. Whether you're LO Mixmence, Specs, Band, Scarf, Yache, +1 DD mence, whatever-- you are equally nerfed by Luke/Scizor.

I disagree with the last point as well. Porygon2 can come in on the DDMence with relative ease, while it is destroyed by MixMence...which in turn is dealt with by Cresselia, who falls to the CBset. You see where I'm getting here. Bring in Gliscor on Luke, and you will win an overwhelming majority of the time. Bring in a Zapdos on Scizor, and again, you win an overwhelming majority of the time. If Salamence had just the DD set, Porygon2, Swampert, and Suicune would be hard counters...but that isn't the case.

I think Salamence is OU. I do admit, it is a goddamn beast, its movepool is large and it hits hard as fuck, but it often dies way to quickly, usually losing a third of its health every time it switches in and attacks. That's not really the kind of thing I see to be Uber.

Rayquaza often loses a third of its health when it switches in. Again, you must prove that the damage Salamence takes neutralizes or even outweighs the damage that it dishes out. Who cares if it takes a third of its health when it comes in if it can KO a pokemon on your team consistently.

The other argument is that is has no proper counters. True, but this is DPPHGSS, where the word "counter" has not as much meaning as it did back then. Heck, Gengar doesn't really have a proper counter either, are we going to declare it Uber?

Counters are definitely outdated. So you have to look at the checks. ScarfLatias, ScarfGar, ScarfStar, and generally fast frail pokemon can deal with the most common set. Outside of that, we see Suicune, Swampert, Hippowdon, and Cresselia leading the defensive attempts. The first three are dealt with by Pursuit, while the latter four fall with some prior damage or SR.

So yeah, Salamence isn't Uber. Good, but not Uber.

Thoughts in bold.

Infernape doesn't have the typing or defenses to match up to Salamence, although he's very close in terms of Mixed breaking, as I said.

The dominant set for Mence is the DDset, while for Infernape (aside from lead) it is mixed sweeping. While Mence relies on sheer force, Infernape can make up for this with its higher speed (defenses don't matter if you can't hit the pokemon), access to stat-boosting moves on both ends, and a STAB coverage moves that decimate the few walls that can take its special assaults.

Special luke is not really something you need to prep for, as it doesn't really have the same quality move pool as a sweeper, and it lacks speed (even with a +speed nature, it's primary counter still outspeeds and OHKOs).

True...it functions as an inferior Infernape to be honest.

So while they are both good, they both have shortcomings that Mence does not.

The same is true otherwise...Mence's weakness to stealth rock is a huge factor, and many of the types it can come in on are paired with moves it is weak to (Water + Ice, Fighting + Ice / Rock, Ground + Rock), so switching in isn't as easy as it seems.

With Manaphy, I didn't mean in the sense of a wall; I meant that if it is something of a power level appropriate to OU, and Mence is not much more powerful than it. Furthermore, MAnaphy can dish it out against Salamence more effectively than Cune.

Manaphy doesn't necessarily have a similar power level. The other top OUs have a similar power level to Mence...but similar was also the difference between Salamence and Garchomp, and Latias and Latios - look how those ended.

 

[MrIndigo]

Manaphy doesn't necessarily have a similar power level. The other top OUs have a similar power level to Mence...but similar was also the difference between Salamence and Garchomp, and Latias and Latios - look how those ended.

The decisive factor with them was their speed tier. There is a much bigger difference between effectiveness with only slight increases in speed at the upper part of the tier.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Icyman--

Regarding Threat List-- What determines the threat list for a team is not usage, it is a player's own diagnosis. The fact is that whether preparing for a threat or not weakens a team is completely determined on how specialized a counter one has to provide for it, and this is largely based on the type of team/play style.

For instance, regarding my personal favorite of Wall-Breaking offensive (rather than set-up offense), Vaporeon is a way bigger issue than Salamence. Salamence is kicking the bucket one way or another with TTar's Sand and Scizor's Bullet Punch, which I would be using anyway-- so I don't have to specialize my team at all to deal with it.

Vaporeon on the other hand, can't be killed by any non-set up sweeper. There's no true sweeper in OU that can kill Vappy on attacking alone, so you're forced to either use something like Celebi/Starmie that loses the immediate sense of pressure you were working so hard to create, or run Toxic on something (which by the way doesn't really work for a number of reasons). On said team, with said player, Vaporeon requires much more specialized means to deal with and is a much more relevant threat.

The point is that Usage Stats to not determine properly high light the most important pokemon to consider when building a team.

Especially in the case of Salamence, it's probably going to get taken down one way or another by most teams you would build in this meta without even trying to prepare for it especially (again due to sand, LO, SR, etc.).


Also I think everyone knows that "Has no Counters" =/= Uber in this generation. Who needs a counter when the pokemon in question will likely kill itself? :/


@Garchomp "similar"-- While I do think Garchomp would deserve to be OU if not for Sand Veil, the fact is that even without Sandveil it is a far superior pokemon to Salamence, because it not only has a comparable destructive power, but bulk, speed and typing that make it one of the most durable pokemon in the game. FLYGON is one of the meta's most durable sweepers even without Swampert-like defensive stats (granted it has levitate/U-Turn to make up for that).

 

[IcyMan28]

The decisive factor with them was their speed tier. There is a much bigger difference between effectiveness with only slight increases in speed at the upper part of the tier.

In reality, the speed tier had little effect. Despite the relatively large size of the base 100 speed group, the only ones that make it to OU are Celebi, Flygon, Jirachi, Salamence, Tentacruel, and Zapdos.

Of these, Tentacruel and Zapdos almost always run less than maximum speed (due to their more defensive use), along with Celebi (who runs low speed even on the Tinkerbell set, an offensive one), so they had little chance of outpacing Garchomp anyway.

Jirachi is played less and less defensively these days, opting for 308 speed sets most of the time, while Flygon and Salamence are really the only ones that max it out most of the time. Mence is really only maxing speed on a DD set, so it can outpace all but ScarfChomp. Any other set, and the standard is less than max speed (except for Band / Specs, which have little use for the remaining EVs other than speed).

Regardless, Mence and Chomp were still revenged by similar checks - frail fast scarfers, Latias, and Swampert / Suicune...Garchomp and Salamence are alot more similar now that I think about it.

But that is not the purpose of this thread...and I guess its my fault for taking it there. Salamence should be discussed based on its own performance...not similar suspects.

@Icyman--

Regarding Threat List-- What determines the threat list for a team is not usage, it is a player's own diagnosis. The fact is that whether preparing for a threat or not weakens a team is completely determined on how specialized a counter one has to provide for it, and this is largely based on the type of team/play style.

True - to an extent. The pokemon that are taken into account when building a threat are more likely to be at the top of the list. While specific issues and counters are always a factor, you would be much more likely to consider checking Salamence over checking, say, Jolteon, because the former is a much more likely encouner.

For instance, regarding my personal favorite of Wall-Breaking offensive (rather than set-up offense), Vaporeon is a way bigger issue than Salamence. Salamence is kicking the bucket one way or another with TTar's Sand and Scizor's Bullet Punch, which I would be using anyway-- so I don't have to specialize my team at all to deal with it.

Together, TTar and Hippowdon were on less than 25% of teams - so Salamence doesn't have to worry about that 75% of the time. And speaking of Scizor, 9 of the top 10 (including itself and Rotom-A) OUs resist Bullet Punch. I think it is safe to say that Salamence is one of the major contributers to the moves usage, aside from the whole Technician thing.

Vaporeon on the other hand, can't be killed by any non-set up sweeper. There's no true sweeper in OU that can kill Vappy on attacking alone, so you're forced to either use something like Celebi/Starmie that loses the immediate sense of pressure you were working so hard to create, or run Toxic on something (which by the way doesn't really work for a number of reasons). On said team, with said player, Vaporeon requires much more specialized means to deal with and is a much more relevant threat.

But then, the offensive threat that it poses is much lower than Salamence's as well. And if you assume that Stealth Rock + Sand is present for Mence, then it is there for Vaporeon as well. As bulky as it may be, Vappy won't be able to take powerful repeated hits from your team's sweepers for long. Alternative methods also exist for Vappy - Toxic Spikes and Trick, for example, have little effect on Mence, while Vaporeon is ruined.

The point is that Usage Stats to not determine properly high light the most important pokemon to consider when building a team.

Especially in the case of Salamence, it's probably going to get taken down one way or another by most teams you would build in this meta without even trying to prepare for it especially (again due to sand, LO, SR, etc.).


Also I think everyone knows that "Has no Counters" =/= Uber in this generation. Who needs a counter when the pokemon in question will likely kill itself? :/

@Garchomp "similar"-- While I do think Garchomp would deserve to be OU if not for Sand Veil, the fact is that even without Sandveil it is a far superior pokemon to Salamence, because it not only has a comparable destructive power, but bulk, speed and typing that make it one of the most durable pokemon in the game. FLYGON is one of the meta's most durable sweepers even without Swampert-like defensive stats (granted it has levitate/U-Turn to make up for that).

The speed, as I mentioned, is a much smaller factor than its made out to be, as I pointed out above. And yes, Chomp has more bulk, at least on the special side. Factoring in Intimidate, Salamence actually takes around 5% less damage than Garchomp from a neutral physical attack.

And then of course, Chomp has to choose between speed and power - Scarf vs. SD. Mence combines the two with DD. But Id digress lol

Once again, thoughts in bold.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Usage-- I will five you that you will see Salamence more often than Vappy, but I could care less about being a "good player" in the middle of the Ladder. If you want to be at the top, you will be fighting a lot of battles against the entirety of OU, and you will have to beat them all. Even just regarding the to 20~30 there is enough diversity and usage amongst them to make my point that the weaknesses/strengths of a team-style / player are more relevant that raw usage stats.

@The Example of Vappy (completely off topic)-- I can tell you have never played the style of team that I was referring to in the example. Sand and SR damage are on Vappy's side, not yours. The Standard Naive Mix-mence has no chance of beating Vappy 1 on 1, and unless Mence gets a crit, Vappy can just wish/protect until LO kills Salamence. The same is true for Infernape and every other non-setup sweeper in the game, meaning that Vappy can kill an entire team of them without even attacking (I know this from personal experience).

Also said team cannot use Toxic/Toxic spikes, because that ruins the whole aggresive nature of the team (not to mention they lack the defenses to actually carry out a toxic-stall without dying themselves). Rather, if I did have to resort to those means that would qualify requiring an "over-specialized counter" which was the whole point of the example.

I have piloted that style of team into the top 10 a few times, so I know it's good-- but the only reason I was able to get there despite Vappy was because so many Vappy players sucked at piloting Vappy (used it to attack and make only 1 kill rather than stalling out and killing the whole team), and yet I still got handed losses due to just that one poke.


I only mention this as an illustrative example of how preparing for OU threats has a lot more involved than looking at the usage stats, and to provide an example of a non-top OU poke that requires more specialization to deal with for a certain team than Salamence.

 

[IcyMan28]

@Usage-- I will five you that you will see Salamence more often than Vappy, but I could care less about being a "good player" in the middle of the Ladder. If you want to be at the top, you will be fighting a lot of battles against the entirety of OU, and you will have to beat them all. Even just regarding the to 20~30 there is enough diversity and usage amongst them to make my point that the weaknesses/strengths of a team-style / player are more relevant that raw usage stats.

Fair enough.

@The Example of Vappy (completely off topic)-- I can tell you have never played the style of team that I was referring to in the example. Sand and SR damage are on Vappy's side, not yours. The Standard Naive Mix-mence has no chance of beating Vappy 1 on 1, and unless Mence gets a crit, Vappy can just wish/protect until LO kills Salamence. The same is true for Infernape and every other non-setup sweeper in the game, meaning that Vappy can kill an entire team of them without even attacking (I know this from personal experience).

I have indeed played a stall team, and was perhaps exaggerating when describing the removal of Vaporeon. The thing is, I'm not really sure where the Vaporeon example fits into all this, as all it shows is that Vaporeon can defeat Salamence in the right conditions...

Also said team cannot use Toxic/Toxic spikes, because that ruins the whole aggresive nature of the team (not to mention they lack the defenses to actually carry out a toxic-stall without dying themselves). Rather, if I did have to resort to those means that would qualify requiring an "over-specialized counter" which was the whole point of the example.

Not really sure where this is going, or why it is going there.

The point was, Salamence is seen much more commonly than Vaporeon is, at least in my experience, so it is only natural that you would make sure that it has been prepared for before you were prepared for Vaporeon. And a team with no set-up sweepers is likely to be heavy offense anyway, as offensive and even balanced teams usually have one or two pokemon that can set up for their sweep.

EDIT: Totally didn't see the latter half of your somehow, until a few seconds ago. And note that I never said that usage stats alone accounted fully for preparation, just that they were an aspect. And like you said yourself, Vaporeon requires more specialization to deal with for a certain team, whereas I feel that Salamence is a more general threat.

 

[Erebyssial]

I'm a strong supporter of Salamence getting a suspect test and am really glad it's been taken to PR for some serious thought. Personally I think it's more of an uber than Latias, the main factor being versatility that helps it get around steels, something Latias can't do.

More importantly-- do you really want to play in a metagame without pokemon like Salamence?

Yes I would absolutely love to try that.. Mence is why I'm not enjoying OU anywhere near as much as I used to and half the reason Scizor and Latias are centralising the tier. It has exactly 0 safe switchins (the only poke in standard that can boast this) except maybe Bronzong so you're forced to make a sacrifice every single time unless you have ridiculously perfect prediction skills every match. I'm sure everyone's aware of this but we have to ask the question: is it healthy for a metagame to have a threat which on most occasions can only reliably be dealt with via revenge killing? I would answer with a no and is why I think it easily deserves a test.

 

[The SPrinkLer]

Why didn't you make this poll multiple choice? Salamence can be support by opening up holes, and offensive by sweeping through them. I would have picked both.

Salamence at least deserves a suspect test because it's so damn powerful. You NEED a Salamence check on your team (because nothing really counters it, it's so versatile) or else you will lose all the matches Salamence is in. Salamence doesn't have around a 20% usage mark because it sucks, Salamence is a great Pokemon many people use, but unfortunately, it's too powerful for our standard metagame.

 

[Philip7086]

We have gone over Salamence so many times, and the conclusion is always the same-- this thing is no where near Uber.

I so wanted to stop reading your post right here, because of how incredibly wrong and obviously misinformed you are. Where did we go over this "so many times" before? When was such a definite conclusion drawn? As far as I know, most respected battlers think Mence should at least be tested, and the majority even already feel it should be banned.

It hits like a truck, but it's not the only pokemon to do so. It's just the only one to do so with fantastic STABs and type combo (Dragon/fire/ground) on both ends of the spectrum. And even then people will always come back to this point: It's just not going to last. SR, LO damage and sand take Salamence out faster than it takes Vegeta to take out bug people. DD versions and Bulky Roost versions can avoid this problem and attempt a longer sweep, but with Scizor freakng EVERYWHERE, this has become even more out of reach. Going to see play, because most likely it will manage to kill something before it goes down.

What about Scizor being everywhere? Bulky DD Mences are built to set up on Scizors, so I'm not sure what your point here is. Also, cool, lets make it a requirement to have Scizor on every team, so that we can have a "reliable" way of taking out Mence. As for the part I italicized, I just wasn't really sure what you were saying, so perhaps you could clarify? That sentence does not make sense.

More importantly-- do you really want to play in a metagame without pokemon like Salamence? That one kill that Salamence has a good chance of pulling off is instrumental in preventing the metagame becoming a circle jerk of stall. Frankly I'd say that's a very good thing considering the meta is already a circle jerk of conservative bulky-offense, despite Salamence being around.

Well, at least you came out and indirectly admitted your bias as to why you want Mence around (you need it to beat stall). I find it ironic that you would cite Mence's destructive power as one of the reasons you think it should stay OU, though, lol.

I say, one should always be VERY careful about considering banning sweepers on the offensive characteristic. This is because Sweepers just tend to make a bigger psychological impression, being offensive and sometimes managing to go on massive massacres-- but the reality is that they are often relatively underpowered, and net less consistent performance than other less conspicuous pokemon.

You make it sound as though sweepers get nominated to be tested every other day. We ARE being careful about this, and that's why Mence is being nominated to get tested, not being nominated to get banned. You seem to be getting the two confused a lot.

Frankly speaking, it wouldn't surprise me if overall Salamence turned out to be a worse performer in battle than pokemon like Rotom, Swampert or Heatran. Certainly even pokemon like Flygon and Vaporeon can carry out their jobs with greater consistency. People just don't think about them because their roles in battle don't have as big a psychological impact.

Your unfounded speculation has been noted.

Salamence certainly is a contender for the title of most destructive power in OU, but in my book that's not really an indicator of possible Uber status or even necessarily being a great pokemon. Salamence is only really a problem if your team roles over and dies upon losing one of its members *cough*stall-bitches*cough*. Most offensive / tank / bulky offensive teams can pull through with their plans regardless if they come out on the better or worse end of the 1 big conflict Salamence is likely to make in the early/mid game (before getting scizor'd to death).

K, more confirmation that you are very anti-stall, which further indicates your bias. Also more citing Scizor as the prominent method of killing Mence, which is not even a valid argument. Again, why should people need to use Scizor (a Pokemon who isn't even reliable, being complete Magnezone food) on all their teams to deal with Mence?

All I know is that while I Salamence is good, there are definitely other pokemon that give me a lot more pains when it comes to including checks in the team.

And there are pokemon that piss me off to the point of wishing they'd get banned a LOT more than Salamence *cough*Jirachi*cough*Jirachi*cough* . . . *thinks a bit more* . . . *cough*Jirachi*cough*

Fortunately for the rest of us, "what pisses ChouToshio off" isn't a criteria we consider when determining suspects.

Oh, also "Best Pokemon in OU" is definitely "Bulky Water". Swampert/Suicune/Vaporeon > Salamence any day, and frankly Salamence has more variety and interest amongst its sets than the difference between Swampert/Suicune/Vaporeon. Add in Starmie (never mind Gyarados), and you'll see "Bulky Water" is WAAAAAY more dominant than Salamence could hope to be. And we're even thinking of letting Manaphy down, lol

Ugh, do I even have to respond to statements like this? -_-''

 

[Blue_Tornado]

(Correct me if I'm missing any worthwhile Pokemon in my lists below)

Seriously, for all those stating that it is OU, let's look at the offensive carataristic again:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Well let's focus on the DD set at the moment. A lot of the common ways to deal with the LO DD set, which is aggreably the most destructive set for salamence to sweep with, involve Salamence licking itself into Outrage. I personally tried to catch teams off-guard with Dragon Claw LO DD Mence, and with proper support, it has been winning matches left and right. Not many outspeed Salamence, and those who do are very vulnerable to trapping.

Scarf Latias ---> Tyranitar/Scizor/Metagross
Scarf Jirachi (a risky check tbh) ---> Magnezone
Scarf Starmie ---> Scizor/Metagross/some Tyranitar

Those are the most common checks to it. Now we can't do this without taking Scizor to account, so:

Scizor ---> Magnezone

So a team with Salamence/Magnezone/Scizor will have no trouble taking care of checks bound to stop Salamence. Now let's look at common Pokemon ment to take a +1 LO Outrage/Dragon Claw or a +1 LO EQ / LO Fire Blast and phaze/KO back:

Cresselia
Swampert
Suicune
Hippowdon
Bronzong

Cresselia will be only a hindrance to most teams, Swampert and Suicune need some Spikes support to make them fall to Outrage and Hippowdon can't do too much back although it can take a hit and Roar, though it will leave it vulnerable to revenge killing, afterwards Salamence can come in and possibly sweep. Bronzong can survive FB, though honestly, there are almost no Bronzong late-game, as most Explode sometime earlier on.

Let's say you don't have Spikes support. There are countless Pokemon that weaken all or most of these Pokemon untill they aren't in shape to stop a Salamence sweep, as all of these need near-full health to effectively stop a sweep. Scizor is an extremely common example - one CB U-Turn does about 43% damage to an incoming Swampert, making it fall to an Outrage coming its way after +1. Same goes for suicune, though admittedly it takes more hits to down a 252/252 Bold Suicune then a U-Turn and an Outrage alone. I've personally been using a LO Mamoswine on my team that I mentioned before, which is just an excellent Pokemon to pave a way for a Salamence sweep - it lures in Scizor for your incoming Magnezone, it 2HKOs Swampert and forces a lot of switches on your opponents side, racking up Spikes damage. It also can revenge kill Salamence if I go back to my earlier topic. So; let's mention the not-so-common but effective Ice Shard users:

Mamoswine
Weavile
Donphan
Abomasnow

Out of these, Donphan and Weavile are extremely rare, and Donphan doesn't even KO with his Ice Shard. Abomasnow that run Ice Shard have many switch-ins to abuse it, and with SR and Scizor/Heatran to scare it off, it will eventually die with no big trouble. Actually, if you're facing a Hail team (hint: Abomasnow), you won't get too far with Mence either way since they will probably carry Mamoswine with them as well. Speaking of Mamoswine, it is the reliable of the bunch, although like I said before, Scizor can threaten it with BP and many others can come in when their predicition is spot on and threaten him also, like Jirachi and Starmie. With accurate play, Mamoswine won't last to stop Salamence, though it is probably the most common check to Salamence there is, albeit one that can't switch in unless it's a DD or a EQ while it's at full health. Although if you want the most effective Salamence check out there, you can go with Weavile, thouhg it's usually not worth it at all.

So; let's look at our team:

Magnezone/Mamoswine/Scizor/Salamence

with two slots to spare, this kind of team can make chances of sweeping with Mence far greater. So... let's examine the offensive charataristic once more. It says that it can sweep significant portions of team with no big effort. One DD up isn't such a big effort, right? So, now let's look at the metagame.

Pokemon that are base speed 100 and more:

Ningask
Aerodactyl
Jolteon
Weavile
Azelf
Starmie
Gengar
Latias
Infernape
Celebi
Flygon
Jirachi
Salamence
Tentacruel
Zapdos

Italics: Pokemon that run choice scarf sets more often than not (as in: they won't go out of their way just to outspeed +1 base 100's)
Underlined: Pokemon that usually run a move that can KO Salamence.
Bold: Common Pokemon in today's metagame.

Pokemon that fall into all three of these catagories provide the common battler with choices for Salamence checks without going out of his way. The only options here that stand out by not being easily revenge killed by Scizor are Jirachi and Infernape, and Jirachi is a risky option when you count on a speed tie to decide the fate of a battle. So.. every team that wants a reliable Salamence check should use... Scarfed Infernape with HP Ice? Like I said ealier, Weavile and Mamoswine are still viable options, though they aren't used that much and for good reason. Just looking at the monthly stats shows how much the metagame is underprepared for a DD Salamence sweep check-wise, and we already know the issue with counters. I even talked about that already earlier.

I think all this wasn't too much, but I really want to make my point clear - sure, there are ways to defeat Salamence, but with proper support is easily fits the offensive charataristic. You can always say "Salamence is stalled out" or "Salamence has trouble DD'ing up" but honestly, with the overflowing amounts of Mixmence in the current Metagame, you are almost certian to get a DD up on a switch out by your opponent, and with proper support, Salamence shouldn't have much problem sweeping a team on it's first try and with full or near-full HP.

I think it's finally time.

Salamence = Uber.

 

[Megan_Fox]

Salamence in uber would make me cry :/

its the defining pokemon in this metagame. Its true that theres no safe switch ins for mixmence but its easy to play around them if you predict well.

I definitely think it should stay in OU though

 

[Objection]

Salamence at least deserves a suspect test because it's so damn powerful. You NEED a Salamence check on your team (because nothing really counters it, it's so versatile) or else you will lose all the matches Salamence is in.

Replace Salamence with absolutely any pokemon you like and that statement holds true minus the zero counters part (although Gengar also has no bona fide counters). I hope this is not a reason for suggesting that Salamence should be uber.

Also, Blue_Tornado, you are assuming that everyone wants to make an OU team using only the top 15 or so OU pokemon. You could say "they're used so much because they're good" but there are lesser-used pokemon that are also good without being totally outclassed by something else (eg, Ambipom, Weavile, Heracross), and they can be powerful forces with the right support, just like Salamence. Sure, they may not sweep whole teams by themselves, but neither will Salamence when so many pokemon can revenge kill it (which makes the DD set rather rubbish in comparison if you have to lose your boosts just to survive; meanwhile, the rest of the sets can be taken care of with any fast pokemon with an Ice-type move).

 

[twash]

Salamence in uber would make me cry :/

its the defining pokemon in this metagame. Its true that theres no safe switch ins for mixmence but its easy to play around them if you predict well.

I definitely think it should stay in OU though

Just because it's a "defining" Pokemon, doesn't mean that it fails to make the Uber characteristics.

You are basically saying you have to predict well/perfectly to avoid being hurt badly by Salamence. I would argue that such a statement means Salamence can potentially sweep through teams, or at least make it easier for other Pokemon to sweep with little effort (i.e. predict correctly and you get a KO/cause huge damage). Often, it's just as easy to predict wrongly as it is correctly.

 

[EspyJoel]

Objection, your basically just saying we have to revenge kill it, which surely shows that it deserves a Suspect test. Almost nothing, bar Cresselia, can really switch into it and avoid a 2HKO. Just because after your Pokemon's fainted, you can come out with your fast Choice Scarf user or Ice Shard user doesn't make it not broken. We haven't said that it is definitely broken and should be Uber, but we are saying that it deserves a Suspect test, and there is no denying this. While other strong sweepers like Swords Dance Lucario have many counters (not including checks), the same does not hold true for Salamence.

 

[Objection]

Objection, your basically just saying we have to revenge kill it, which surely shows that it deserves a Suspect test. Almost nothing, bar Cresselia, can really switch into it and avoid a 2HKO. Just because after your Pokemon's fainted, you can come out with your fast Choice Scarf user or Ice Shard user doesn't make it not broken. We haven't said that it is definitely broken and should be Uber, but we are saying that it deserves a Suspect test, and there is no denying this. While other strong sweepers like Swords Dance Lucario have many counters (not including checks), the same does not hold true for Salamence.

By your theory, Gengar should be uber as well because nothing truly counters Gengar. Blissey? Sub Punch/Specs Focus Blast beats it. Scizor? Don't Gengar usually run HP Fire in case of Scizor? Not a counter then. And this is a pokemon that, with the possible exception of the Sub Punch set, doesn't even need to spend a turn setting up.

 

[cantab]

I've seen a lot of people try and stop Mence by statusing it. Burn, paralyze, maybe even confuse it and it's in trouble. Of course it can run Lum Berry to overcome that. (I do.) But then it loses power. And without any good switch-ins, that's still a shaky answer.
I suppose it's worthy to note that nothing besides Deoxys (N and A) has more Attack and more Speed than Salamence. Looked at purely as a physical sweeper, it's one of the best. And then it has a very good special attack on top of that.